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Old 11-17-2009, 08:14 PM   #1
nurturinglovely
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Default The book: Helpful hints for child training

I had never heard of it before - just saw it on amazon.... http://www.amazon.com/Hints-Child-Tr...pr_product_top

anyone else read it - or have any thoughts?
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:41 PM   #2
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

dh just bought this, I can tell you what I think about it in a few days
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

IIRC it's a horribly punitive book Greg Harris writing the foreward for this reprint makes me think I'm remembering the right book/author
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Old 11-17-2009, 10:53 PM   #4
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

Well the name alone is very revealing...

I've never seen anything that uses the terminology "child training" that was NOT highly punitive and domineering. You train dogs, not children.
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Old 11-18-2009, 02:50 PM   #5
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

"Even in the late 1800's, Trumbull did not resort to spanking until all other efforts had failed."

found that on an amazon review of it--I have found that to be true for MOST older parenting books. I actually find it refreshing that spanking used to be a last resort (as opposed to a first (or at least frequent) resort like Tripp, Ezzo, Pearl, etc. suggest). I say "refreshing" because people like to say, "back in the old days, parents used to spank "all the time" when, in reality, that is simply not true. (I've read several lovely books written in the 50's where it's clear that a spanking was a RARE event.)

Let us know what your hubby thinks.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:36 PM   #6
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECingMama View Post
"Even in the late 1800's, Trumbull did not resort to spanking until all other efforts had failed."

I actually find it refreshing that spanking used to be a last resort (as opposed to a first (or at least frequent) resort like Tripp, Ezzo, Pearl, etc. suggest). I say "refreshing" because people like to say, "back in the old days, parents used to spank "all the time" when, in reality, that is simply not true. (I've read several lovely books written in the 50's where it's clear that a spanking was a RARE event.)

Let us know what your hubby thinks.
Here's the thing, though...while initially it might seem a positive thing that he doesn't "resort to spanking until the last option", that in itself makes the book dangerous. Maybe even more dangerous, because he condones spanking while at the same time conveying a false positive parenting front.

There is NO parent-child relationship that will NOT suffer when the parent hits the child. Under any circumstances, there is no "last resort" that could ever make hitting your child acceptable.

This man has a chapter specifically devoted to not hitting your child in anger. That means that the parent has calculated, planned and executed hitting their child with thoughtful deliberation. That's pretty sickening. Do you really want to accept any other advice a person capable of that has to give, especially when it comes to your child?

Have you ever heard of that story about the father who wouldn't allow his teenagers to see an "R" rated movie? They whined and begged and sulked about it. Complained that there was only a little of the bad stuff, the rest of the movie was reportedly wonderful!

After dinner one night, the kids sat around eating homemade brownies. The father sat down to chat with them, and asked them how the brownies were. They munched and gave a thumbs-up. Then the father casually said, "Well that's great! I figured you wouldn't taste the dog poop that the batter fell into". You can imagine the kids' reaction! Naturally, the ditched their brownies immediately.

"It was just a little dog poop," said the father. "How could that small bit ruin the whole batch?" The kids began to tell their father how even a drop of poop was unacceptable in their food. He then said, "So now do you see how even a small amount of the wrong things in an R-rated movie can "contaminate" the rest?

That's how books like this are...contaminated with bad advice, without the gentle wisdom and maturity to resolve issues without resorting to hitting their own child, tainted regardless of whatever good might be mixed in.

We have so many truly wonderful parenting resources available to us, Crystal Lutton's works and Bill Sears' works just to name a few. These are seasoned parents, experts in their field both personally and professionally. There is no danger of relationship-damaging advice or thought contamination in their works, but books like this only lead to more and more contamination eventually becoming an acceptable norm.

Thanks for listening to my thoughts on this.
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Old 11-18-2009, 06:57 PM   #7
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

I picked it up once and wasn't impressed. Even when I was open to spanking, I just didn't find it that helpful.
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Old 11-18-2009, 08:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

YIKES! Good to know!!!
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Old 11-19-2009, 11:03 AM   #9
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

I just re-read my post and wanted to clarify that I wasn't referring to anyone specifically when I used the term "you" in my response. It was a general "you" as in "everybody/anybody". My apologies if anyone felt it was directed at them.
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Old 11-20-2009, 05:04 PM   #10
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

Well, I read through it fast to see how much damage control I might have to do with dh. And it's not quite as bad as I was afraid of. HOWEVER, it IS punitive, and NOT a book that I would recommend. If you are looking for a book that covers some of the same areas, like courtesy, home atmosphere, cultivating your child's tastes--Sally Clarkson is a much better choice. More practical and no punitive-ness.

That said, he is better than some of the modern (toxic) parenting authors. I think in a lot of ways people would get out of his book pretty much what they brought into it--he's not putting forth a method, he's not big on specific ideas of what to do. He believes that infants can be trained for self-control, and I disagree. The saving grace there is that he doesn't actually put forward any ideas on how to do it. So an Ezzoite would get out of it that they should keep doing Ezzo and a casual reader would probably go huh? well, how?

Like I said, though, he doesn't promise results, or claim that his way is God's way, or punish if he doesn't get first time obedience. ECing Mama's quote is right, but shows a modern bias. He doesn't recommend corporal punishment except as a last resort; but he doesn't mention 'spanking' at all. He talks about whipping, beating, striking a child --not spanking. And he doesn't give a lot of other ideas except talking with/reasoning with your child.

It's refreshing to see someone who isn't afraid of mother's loving their kids (he has a chapter that's unequivocally positive about the power of a mother's love and gentleness throughout her children's lives), who recommends that parents sidestep power struggles whenever possible (though his idea of what do do when a power struggle has occurred and the parent doesn't see a way around it is punitive ). It has some quotes I wouldn't be surprised to find here and some that I wouldn't be surprised to find in Ezzo.

It's an interesting read from that perspective--IF you are wondering 'did anybody 'back then' have ANY gentle ideas in parenting', IF you are reading it for just that purpose and recognizing the bad theology that leads him to punitive. It's not a book you would read to get helpful ideas for your own parenting.
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Old 11-21-2009, 01:28 PM   #11
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

oh crap ! this is on my amazon wish list. I could have sworn I saw that recommend here. off to delete ASAP.
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Old 11-21-2009, 08:16 PM   #12
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

I am not sure I was clear in my reply. I do NOT endorse last resort spanking!
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Old 11-22-2009, 03:43 AM   #13
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

Quote:
Originally Posted by ECingMama View Post
I am not sure I was clear in my reply. I do NOT endorse last resort spanking!
I didn't get that you did
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:10 AM   #14
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training



I just read it. I'm pretty sure that *someone* on GCM recommended it at some point, but I have no idea who, when or in what context.

I didn't get from it that it was horribly punitive. My take was that it was full of grace for children and parents. It didn't give a whole lot of practical tips until the second half, but it did address things that I had been looking for help with and hadn't been able to find any.

Also, i take serious issue with the idea that we only train dogs, or whatever. If a person take a job, they many times need to be trained, we train certain plants to grow in a certain patterns, and quite frankly, I'm not sure what the big deal is with comparing child training to dog training. It's no more ridiculous an idea than any other analogy or comparison, which by it's very nature must be inexact, especially since my understanding of current techniques in dog training focus on relationship, gentleness, and repetition.

The chapter's that I found particularly helpful were "Honoring a Child's Individuality," "The Place of Must in Training," "Letting Alone as a Means of Child Training," "Training Children to Sabbath Observance," (imagine if you didn't raise your child in faith and church from birth - how would go about instituting those changes?) "Training a child to Courtesy," "Never *Punish* a Child in Anger," ... in fact, I found the entire second half of the book to be VERY helpful.

Additionally, I find the "dog poop" analogy to be very unhelpful. While I certainly would never recommend Ezzo or any of the others (and in fact have gleefully recycled any copies I find at goodwill!) there is such a thing as discernment and prayer. You can't selectively digest something you eat - you can with something you read. some of us have grown up in very punitive-minded homes and are looking to break the cycle. Many people swing very far into the other side and become permissive, some just do what they know, some (like me ) do both. While it's true that it takes a lot of work to overcome that, in the meantime, we have actual families that need actual day to day raising and we have to do SOMETHING. Many times what we do is apologize for our failings and try to do better, and that's good, and try to learn new ways, and that's good, but there's still the day to day. I personally need *concrete* first do this then do that advice. and honestly, I've been trying all the things I've read on GCM from the beginning. No, not perfectly, but in trying to balance everyone's needs in this house....

whoops - just made this all about me sorry

In any case, while I dearly love all the very wise mamas on this board , I don't always agree with everyone's take on everything .

Oh, and also, while I love Sally Clarkson (am currently reading "the Ministry of Motherhood") I wouldn't say she's completely practical or non-punitive. And she does seem to embrace some of that "parent-is-God" mindset.

Also, I think there's a difference between 'condoning' spanking and recognizing that some people 'do' spank, and saying, well, before you do that, try this or this or this or this. Isn't that sort of like what we do here??
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Old 11-22-2009, 10:14 AM   #15
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Default Re: The book: Helpful hints for child training

Wow, I'm sorry that brought out such big feelings for you, mama. Of course we all have our own opinions, nothing wrong with that.
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