Non-coersive vs too permissive.

I have read all of the non-coersive parenting books out there and I love that type of parenting. I aspire to be that kind of parent. However, I am finding a hard time between being non-coersive and too permissive. I feel like I'm allowing my son to do a lot of things that I shouldn't and not setting clear limits. Pam Leo wrote something that really made sense. The child is seeking limits.
I'm a softie by nature. I am having a hard time, because I feel like I don't want to see my son cry, I get flustered and I allow him to boss me around.
To make it clear: I don't allow him to be hurtful to me or other children. No way. But things like misbehaving in restaurants or standing on pieces of furniture he shouldn't be standing on, or going thru the fridge "for fun"

I really hope to get no judgement here. I am looking for suggestions on how to be more firm, how to stick to my decisions, how to make him understand that certain things are just not ok to do. I understand that everyone has their ideas of what's appropriate and what's not...but I think that most moms will understand what I'm talking about. Like basic common sense things.

And it doesn't help that my DH always points out that I'm too permissive.

[mamaKristin]

I think the key is to define what are your non-negotiable boundaries. What behaviors/actions will make YOU crazy. What behaviors/actions are appropriate/inappropriate for being out in public. That's a good place to start. Then you enforce the boundaries. I don't know if it's truly possible to be non-coercive and still enforce boundaries though. Especially when in other's homes or in public. I like to aim for low-coercion, but I'm still the mom, and I will make things happen when I need to.

For example:
I don't like my kids eating anywhere but at the table. I don't like crumbs all over the place, I don't like food being where food shouldn't be, I don't want to clean sticky stuff off my couch. It makes me CRAZY to have that happen. Therefore, in our home, food is for the table. Period. I use the 5 steps (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...hp?topic=250.0), and will help my child maintain the boundary by either helping them back to the table, or removing the food until they can sit at the table if they choose to get down and walk around with food.

The boundaries are going to be different from family to family, situation to situation. If he shouldn't be standing on a piece of furniture, then you need to help him not do that...but not stopping him when you want to stop him is being permissive. Clear limits are a really good thing for children - and you can phrase them in a more positive way. Take "get off the couch" vs. "feet on the floor" or "no, no don't hit" vs. "hands are for gentle touches only".

[allisonintx]

non-coercive parenting is one of those things that looks great in writing but is near impossible to maintain in Real Life where children do have to sit in car seats.

[AmyDoll]

Originally Posted by janethepain

I'm a softie by nature. I am having a hard time, because I feel like I don't want to see my son cry, I get flustered and I allow him to boss me around.

Big feelings can be overwhelming! But we all have them & part of my job as mom is to help my kids process and deal with those big feelings - not just act out. Does that make sense?
I'm not sure how old Max is, but one thing we're dealing with here is climbing! Nicholas loves to stand on the craft table. We have a rule that chairs are for sitting and we don't stand on tables. I move the baby to the floor & tell him "feet go on the floor" and he cries and hollers. I reflect those big mad feelings, hug him and we move on. It's so important to let him know that he can be frustrated and angry & the rules don't change. My rules are to keep us safe and to keep the house running smoothly - there are no arbitrary rules.

We don't practice non-coercive parenting. Stuff has to get done & little people have to be with Mom. I'm kind and gentle but I'm not wearing Depends bc my toddler is afraid of the bathroom at Target.

[Joanne]

I really hope to get no judgement here. I am looking for suggestions on how to be more firm, how to stick to my decisions, how to make him understand that certain things are just not ok to do. I understand that everyone has their ideas of what's appropriate and what's not...but I think that most moms will understand what I'm talking about. Like basic common sense things.

Prayerfully decide what parenting paradigm you want to embrace. I can offer tons of into on how to be firm, but if you are looking for ways to be firm and also "nice", it won't work.

Non coercive books, sites and discussions are very seductive, especially to parents who have an intellectual "pull" that direction or fear "negative" emotions.

[Dana Joy]

I think a great place to start is to read The Continuum Concept. it is not about non coersive parenting- but it appeals to the intellectual side of me that is drawn to NCP.

Originally Posted by janethepain

But things like misbehaving in restaurants or standing on pieces of furniture he shouldn't be standing on, or going thru the fridge "for fun"

Specific examples like this are easier to give concrete answers to, so...

Misbehaving in public - When Alex was small we left places. We sat on a lot of benches outside restaurants waiting for the rest of the party to finish, we walked away from full carts in the grocery, we left playdates and events I hated to miss, etc. Part of it was about teaching him but more of it was about recognizing his inability to do well in certain situations. Maturity and practice mostly cured it, but leaving was often the only kind thing to do, for him and for all the people around us.

Standing on things he shouldn't stand on - Walk over, saying something like, "Tables are for dishes. Floors are for standing. Keep your feet on the floor." And while you are talking move him to the floor. Give your words meaning, keep him safe, and teach the concept, all in one movement. The same concepts work for any physical misbehavior - address it verbally while making the fix with actions. You may have to repeat it until you are tired of hearing yourself say it, but with repetition and maturity he will get it.

I hope that helps!

[ArmsOfLove]

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...?topic=32243.0this is our official position as a board on TCS/NCP. In short we don't support it. At all. It *is* permissive--in fact, it's permissive to the point that imo it's likely to be abusive check out www.aolff.org and the GOYBP site linked to from there

[Marsha]

I will say that having that "ideal" in my head had me actually forgetting that GBD is Grace Based DISCIPLINE. Everything I read about parenting was read through that filter, too. It made transitioning to three and four (where they need absolute boundaries because you can't physically "help" them as much) more difficult than it had to be.

And I think it's unfair to children. I think they grow up better and grow up more when soemone else is holding up the boundaries so they don't have to.

It has taken me the last two years to get the "ideal" of NCP out of my head and to embrace being a leader.

[katiekind]

I'm a softie by nature, too, Jane. It was really hard for me to realize that I needed to be more determined about certain things than my two year old, when by nature he was always more passionate about everything, while by nature I'm more of a "ok, whatever, if you feel that strongly about it" kind of person. So it took me awhile to find my feet as an authority figure and to realize that I had the right as well as the duty to set the boundaries and enforce them graciously but firmly.

There's definitely a learning curve for the softies among us.

[Singingmom]

Another softie here. I want to tell you that it is really freeing to learn to allow your child his big feelings. To let him cry if he's sad about hearing "no" or even to yell, and then to see that he's fine and you're fine and you enforced an important boundary.

Thank you very much for all the replies. I am reading thru all of them and checking out all the links.

Originally Posted by ArmsOfLove

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...?topic=32243.0this is our official position as a board on TCS/NCP. In short we don't support it. At all. It *is* permissive--in fact, it's permissive to the point that imo it's likely to be abusive check out www.aolff.org and the GOYBP site linked to from there

I guess I was very broad in my statement of "non-coersive"...possibly I should have said "low-coersive", since anyway even if I wanted, I wouldn't be able to be a non-coersive parent. I feel like I'm too permissive rather then non-coersive or low-coersive.
That's why I'm struggling actually, since I cannot seem to find a balance... Anyway, I would be interested in getting your book...

Originally Posted by mamaKristin

I think the key is to define what are your non-negotiable boundaries. What behaviors/actions will make YOU crazy. What behaviors/actions are appropriate/inappropriate for being out in public. That's a good place to start. Then you enforce the boundaries. I don't know if it's truly possible to be non-coercive and still enforce boundaries though. Especially when in other's homes or in public. I like to aim for low-coercion, but I'm still the mom, and I will make things happen when I need to.

For example:
I don't like my kids eating anywhere but at the table. I don't like crumbs all over the place, I don't like food being where food shouldn't be, I don't want to clean sticky stuff off my couch. It makes me CRAZY to have that happen. Therefore, in our home, food is for the table. Period. I use the 5 steps (http://www.gentlechristianmothers.co...hp?topic=250.0), and will help my child maintain the boundary by either helping them back to the table, or removing the food until they can sit at the table if they choose to get down and walk around with food.

The boundaries are going to be different from family to family, situation to situation. If he shouldn't be standing on a piece of furniture, then you need to help him not do that...but not stopping him when you want to stop him is being permissive. Clear limits are a really good thing for children - and you can phrase them in a more positive way. Take "get off the couch" vs. "feet on the floor" or "no, no don't hit" vs. "hands are for gentle touches only".

Thanks...I understand what you mean. I have to value and respect my own comfort as well...I'm working on setting the limits, I really do.

Originally Posted by Marsha

I will say that having that "ideal" in my head had me actually forgetting that GBD is Grace Based DISCIPLINE. Everything I read about parenting was read through that filter, too. It made transitioning to three and four (where they need absolute boundaries because you can't physically "help" them as much) more difficult than it had to be.

And I think it's unfair to children. I think they grow up better and grow up more when soemone else is holding up the boundaries so they don't have to.

It has taken me the last two years to get the "ideal" of NCP out of my head and to embrace being a leader.

So I guess you were also interested in NCP for a while? It's funny, because I know deep down inside it will not work with my child or in general, but another poster was right to say that it can be very attractive. Almost like "an ideal" world that doesn't exist.
That's why I asked this question here, because I am struggling with setting limits and I go between hot and cold. One day I feel like I'm too strict, others I feel like I'm too permissive. I think my son gets confused with mixed messages I give him.