Bedtime Dramas

[ozmummy]

I need to do something about our bedtimes...

First thing is that dh works 4pm-12am, so I am by myself for dinner,bath,bed etc. And I'm generally pretty tired by the end.

I have ds 6yo, dd 2.5yo and ds 6 weeks.

We have a family bed with mattresses on the floor. 6yo told me recently that he wants to sleep with us "forever".

Before the baby was born, our routine would be pack away, bath, dinner, clean up, brush teeth, stories in bed, bed. I would read one story to each child. Then I would lay down with them until they fell asleep. And often I would fall asleep too. I started doing the lie down thing after reading The Family Bed, but now I am resenting it. I treasure my "alone" time in the night.

I have found I am battling and hating this time - it's my dd mostly - having to keep telling her to lie down, she will literally be dancing and jumping around the bed. It's daylight saving here, so bedtime is still like the middle of the day bright. ANd now there's a baby in the mix, I just want to be able to "do" the bedtime routine and have them put themselves to sleep.

I tried changing the routine a bit so that I read ds her story alone in bed and try to nurse her to sleep. This worked once. She nurses, then says "Finished. Put it away mum." and starts jumping on the bed, etc

When ds was younger, I did that gradual transition thing, where you leave, saying "I'm just going to feed the cat (or whatever) and then I'll be back", and come back to check on them, leaving longer gaps each time, so they know you're still there. Dd won't have a bar of it. Every time I try to leave the room, dd just follows me out. I put her back and tell her "It's time for bed. Lie down.Mummy's going to......" She says "Me come too", and she literally follows me out the door right behind me. Sje just says no. I know she needs to sleep, she's getting black circles under her eyes. It's like there's a period of time around 4pm where she would fall asleep at the drop of a hat, and often asks to nurse. If I nurse her, she goes straight to sleep, but then wakes up at 6 and is up till midnight. So I try keep her up and hope that she will go to sleep easily at 6:30, but she doesn't.

How can I get her to listen to me, and just keep on her bed.

I shamefully admit I locked the door on them the last 2 nights .(There's a sliding door to the verandah that runs along the house to the lounge room that ds can get out, but not dd)
the first night she screamed but I was totally at my wits end, from constantly saying "lie down" and she lies down for 3sec and then forgets. ANd she also pokes the baby and makes him cry, or wants to "say hello" which means putting her face on his really hard saying"hello bubba". I just get really sick of saying"That hurts bubba, you can say hello by kissing his hand" or whateverand then she just whacks him. I've often just got him to sleep too, so that wakes him up and then I'm back to square one with 3 wide awake kids.....
Then I heard them playing in there - jumping around and laughing for at least an hour and a half. When it got dark they eventually fell asleep.

Tonight it was the same, but she didn't cry. I know locking the door is a criminal act kwim...but i just needed the break.

They just played around like crazy in there tonight, and I ignored it. Is that permissive?

So I guess my question is suggestions for a good nighttime routine when I'm on my own, with a baby. And how to get dd to stay in the room, preferably lying on the bed, when it's bed time?

[Joanne]

We have a family bed with mattresses on the floor. 6yo told me recently that he wants to sleep with us "forever".

I started doing the lie down thing after reading The Family Bed, but now I am resenting it. I treasure my "alone" time in the night.

Before I offer some bedtime ideas, I wanted to address what might be the larger problem. It sounds like you might be parenting passively, making "ideal" choices instead of family centered choices and setting yourself up for frustration.

I believe in the family bed as an option, as long as all parties agree and it's working. I don't believe in it as an absolute, as a goal to work towards, as something that symbolizes an attached family. It's an *expression* of many attached families, but does not begin to define them.

I could be "off", but I am picking up something in the tone behind your 6yo who wants to sleep with you "forever". I am sensing you are ready for a major change but that you'd prefer to get the children to agree so that the change will be without tears, anger, frustration. Being ready to completely change the family bed is a valid option. Making your children responsible for being "okay" with it is not.

I would encourage you to look at whether in this situation (and quite possibly other parenting situations) you are being a martyr. If you are making the choice to family bed (or extended nurse on demand, or whatever.......) not because it's working for *all* of you but because you are trying to live up to an ideal or lack the skills of non punitive assertive parenting.

If you want to make changes to bedtime, it would be best to be upfront and honest and prepare for a transition, complete with big feelings. Decide what you want bedtime to look like, and what you are willing to do to get there. Don't ask for "buy in" from the kids and if you want the change to work, don't give in.

So I guess my question is suggestions for a good nighttime routine when I'm on my own, with a baby. And how to get dd to stay in the room, preferably lying on the bed, when it's bed time?

First, decide how you want bedtime to be for each child. Then, make a plan to get there.

It might be that your dd needs an earlier bedtime. THe abundant energy she shows could very well be over-tiredness.

To teach children that "bedtime means bed", minimize distractions, power struggles, noise, lights and interaction. Develop a simple routine. If during the pleasant parts of the routine, they have inappropriate behavior, that means the part of the routine is over. For example, jumping around during reading is a choice by the child to end the story time.

Sit near the bed. Say as few words as possible. One "bedtime" is sufficient. If they get up, return them to bed without lecture, punishment or tone. At the beginning, it's probably more effective to not leave and walk somewhere else. Soon, or eventually, you will be able to do that. But not in the transitional days or weeks.

Make sure you are ready to committ to the change. If you cave and give in after an hour of tantrums, she'll know that an hour of tantrums will change things for her.

Again, please take a prayerful look at the choices you are making and if they are making for a pleasant family life for *everyone - including you.

Can you put blackout shades on the windows in your bedroom? I have them on my children's bedroom window, it makes all the difference in the world.

Does your DD still nap?

Could this be related to DD having big feelings regarding her new baby sibling and all the changes that brings?

[mommy2abigail]

Praying for some solutions and sleep for you!

[ArmsOfLove]

Joanne's words are very wise here. I also sense overtired in your dd--that is when my children get that crazy energy too Have you read the sticky in the night time parenting forum that talks about sleep issues??? I think we stickied that

[ozmummy]

Joanne you are so wise...God has blessed you with real insight beyond the words on the screen - I see you do it all the time. It's an amazing ministry you have here

It sounds like you might be parenting passively, making "ideal" choices instead of family centered choices and setting yourself up for frustration.

You are right. And this is something I am realising about myself, that when I made the transition to AP I just started doing all the "right" AP things. Most of them I am really happy with, but I think the combination of the new bubba and we just started hs too, with dh being absent at dinner/bed time so I don't have an extra pair of hands means it's become too much for me and something has to change.

IT's been hard for me, because I was confident in my "tools" early on in parenting, but when I discovered GBD I did go permissive, and now I am on the journey of realising that is NOT GBD. Hard work....

But this

I am sensing you are ready for a major change but that you'd prefer to get the children to agree so that the change will be without tears, anger, frustration. Being ready to completely change the family bed is a valid option. Making your children responsible for being "okay" with it is not.

Is making me think....I kind of thought ds would be in his own bed by now, that he would want to...I wanted it to come from him, it seems to happen that way for alot of people? I need to reflect on my feelings about this a bit more..It's mostly the bedtime that's so frustrating, but I do need to consider the bigger picture too. I also feel mean that if I moved him to his own bed, the rest of the family are together, and he's by himself out there KWIM?


The 6yo is actually very good at going to bed. He knows the routine and I can leave him to fall asleep. But when dd is in there jumping around, of course he joins in.

It might be that your dd needs an earlier bedtime. THe abundant energy she shows could very well be over-tiredness.

Yes I know this....I just want the magic answer you know. I'm flat out getting everyone bathed,fed and bed for her at 6:30. I'm just going to have to start the whole thing earlier - we do have a good routine in place - pack away, bath, (I cook while they're in the bath), dinner, brush teeth, bed. I have been letting 6yo stay in the loungeroom while I try and settle dd so that she'll be asleep by the time he comes in.

To teach children that "bedtime means bed", minimize distractions, power struggles, noise, lights and interaction. Develop a simple routine. If during the pleasant parts of the routine, they have inappropriate behavior, that means the part of the routine is over. For example, jumping around during reading is a choice by the child to end the story time.

I am doing all this - I guess this is why my son does it all so well. I found that when I had them in together, dd would jump around during ds story - so it's not fair on him to miss out, because of her behaviour. He sits still and listens to her story. That's one of the reasons I decided to separate them for that time.

I will try for an earlier bed time tonight - I just have to think out the practicalities of juggling the children so this can happen earlier.

Sit near the bed. Say as few words as possible. One "bedtime" is sufficient. If they get up, return them to bed without lecture, punishment or tone. At the beginning, it's probably more effective to not leave and walk somewhere else. Soon, or eventually, you will be able to do that. But not in the transitional days or weeks.

Make sure you are ready to committ to the change. If you cave and give in after an hour of tantrums, she'll know that an hour of tantrums will change things for her.

Atm I am lying down with her on one side, and bubba on the other. She will get up literally every 5s for over an hour. I have been saying "Lie down by yourself or mummy help you" and half the time she lies down again. Sometimes she says no, so I physically help her, and bear hug her lying down. Then she screams "by self! by self!" and I say "You ready to do it by yourself" and she does, for 10s or so. Then it starts over. Would you suggest a different "Script", as this is quite an interaction when it's supposed to be bedtime.. Should I just lay her down without talking/eye contact...? And sit near the bed, holding bubba...

Can you put blackout shades on the windows in your bedroom? I have them on my children's bedroom window, it makes all the difference in the world.

We don't really have any extra money atm....

Does your DD still nap?

She is at that transition age where a nap means she's up till midnight, and no nap means I get that crazy jumping on the bed thing. I let her sleep at 5pm the other night, and she slept through till 11pm - just as I had got to sleep. Then she woke up, dh came home and she didn't go back to sleep till 3am.....

Could this be related to DD having big feelings regarding her new baby sibling and all the changes that brings?

Partly, but this was the scenario before the birth as well. Although I was pretty tired, so tended just to go to bed with them. Maybe I was sleeping while she was jumping around

Have you read the sticky in the night time parenting forum that talks about sleep issues??? I think we stickied that think

I'll have a look....

[ozmummy]

Ok...here's a rundown of what happened tonight.. feel free to comment, but please be gentle with a fragile mumma..

I got them dinner at 5:15pm

Then explained to 6yo that I was putting dd to bed, and to only interrupt if baby was crying. Left baby and 6yo in lounge room.

Took dd to bed & read a story & nursed a bit(normal routine)

5:45pm said "Mummy is going to sit here and Star is going to lie down here. It's bedtime". I was sitting on the floor, reading a book, dd in bed in "her spot", about an arms length away. Dd lay down for 5s, then got up. I physically laid her down without speaking/looking at her. As soon as I let go, she got up again. So I laid her down again. We did this for 10min.

Then I was getting sick of up,down,up,down So I kept my arm across her to stop her getting up.Then she wanted to "lie in Daddy's bed" - meaning "daddy's spot" on the other side of the mattress. I said "no". I didn't think she was relaxed enough to lie over there, that it would open the door to jumping around and that to say yes let go of my standard of having her lie in her spot to sleep without jumping around. Is this true, or just being controlling. She started to get upset, saying over and over "lie in Daddy's bed". This escalated till she was all out crying.

Then she asked for "Booby" (nurse) I said no. She kept asking and asking, just getting more hysterical. Then she wanted a cuddle. and kept asking over and over. I curled my arm around her so it was a cuddle, but she wanted to be in my lap. Then she wanted to lie in Daddy's bed again. So she is basically screaming, and saying stuff I can barely understand. Meanwhile I am keeping her from getting up, letting go every now and then to see if she will stay. She doesn't, so then I hold her again. I just felt like this was "breaking her spirit" in the way the Pearls? talk about spanking to the point of breaking their spirit KWIM - I am physically holding my child onto the bed, Is this GBD? I couldn't even just sit there on the floor and have her stay in bed. I had to be right there holding her on and have her bawl.

At one point I had to leave - I said "Mummy's getting angry, I have to leave. I'll come back soon" So I left and calmed down a bit, and came back in a few minutes. She was crying at the door (which she can open, I only closed,not locked it). I put her back in bed and it just picked up where it had left off.

At 7:20 (one and a half hours....I don't usually clock watch, but I was planning on coming here to share, so I kept an eye on the time..) I just said to her (a bit fiercely ) "I can't listen to you scream anymore. I'm going". There was no sign that she was calming down.

And I came in here to write this. After a few minutes she stopped crying. I started typing but 6yo started reading over my shoulder, so I had to switch off. I went back to check on her. It was 7:30 and she was fast asleep

What do you make of this? What should I do differently tomorrow? What did I do right (if anything)? I basically want to end up at a point where I can read the story, tuck her in, and leave her to go to sleep.

btw then I did 6yo bedtime routine, and he went straight to bed by himself, no dramas at all. I think having a bit of a gap between them, I forget what each age is like...

Thanks for reading....

[ozmummy]

Ok...here's a rundown of what happened tonight.. feel free to comment, but please be gentle with a fragile mumma..

I got them dinner at 5:15pm

Then explained to 6yo that I was putting dd to bed, and to only interrupt if baby was crying. Left baby and 6yo in lounge room.

Took dd to bed & read a story & nursed a bit(normal routine)

5:45pm said "Mummy is going to sit here and Star is going to lie down here. It's bedtime". I was sitting on the floor, reading a book, dd in bed in "her spot", about an arms length away. Dd lay down for 5s, then got up. I physically laid her down without speaking/looking at her. As soon as I let go, she got up again. So I laid her down again. We did this for 10min.

Then I was getting sick of up,down,up,down So I kept my arm across her to stop her getting up.Then she wanted to "lie in Daddy's bed" - meaning "daddy's spot" on the other side of the mattress. I said "no". I didn't think she was relaxed enough to lie over there, that it would open the door to jumping around and that to say yes let go of my standard of having her lie in her spot to sleep without jumping around. Is this true, or just being controlling. She started to get upset, saying over and over "lie in Daddy's bed". This escalated till she was all out crying.

Then she asked for "Booby" (nurse) I said no. She kept asking and asking, just getting more hysterical. Then she wanted a cuddle. and kept asking over and over. I curled my arm around her so it was a cuddle, but she wanted to be in my lap. Then she wanted to lie in Daddy's bed again. So she is basically screaming, and saying stuff I can barely understand. Meanwhile I am keeping her from getting up, letting go every now and then to see if she will stay. She doesn't, so then I hold her again. I just felt like this was "breaking her spirit" in the way the Pearls? talk about spanking to the point of breaking their spirit KWIM - I am physically holding my child onto the bed, Is this GBD? I couldn't even just sit there on the floor and have her stay in bed. I had to be right there holding her on and have her bawl.

At one point I had to leave - I said "Mummy's getting angry, I have to leave. I'll come back soon" So I left and calmed down a bit, and came back in a few minutes. She was crying at the door (which she can open, I only closed,not locked it). I put her back in bed and it just picked up where it had left off.

At 7:20 (one and a half hours....I don't usually clock watch, but I was planning on coming here to share, so I kept an eye on the time..) I just said to her (a bit fiercely ) "I can't listen to you scream anymore. I'm going". There was no sign that she was calming down.

And I came in here to write this. After a few minutes she stopped crying. I started typing but 6yo started reading over my shoulder, so I had to switch off. I went back to check on her. It was 7:30 and she was fast asleep

What do you make of this? What should I do differently tomorrow? What did I do right (if anything)? I basically want to end up at a point where I can read the story, tuck her in, and leave her to go to sleep.

btw then I did 6yo bedtime routine, and he went straight to bed by himself, no dramas at all. I think having a bit of a gap between them, I forget what each age is like...

Thanks for reading....

[ArmsOfLove]

Keiren, one thing I've found with my toddlers is that the more focus I put on bedtime the more resistance I get to it. Our general evening routine is to fall asleep watching tv. Some people will shake their heads at this but we have no bedtime issues in my house. They are welcome to come and lay down near us at any time and if it gets past when I know they need to be asleep they have to roll over and turn away from the tv. But they are occupied while relaxing and then drift to sleep. Sometimes, if they are really stressed, I'll stroke their forehead or back while they relax. But this also keeps them with everyone and not isolated.

[ArmsOfLove]

Keiren, one thing I've found with my toddlers is that the more focus I put on bedtime the more resistance I get to it. Our general evening routine is to fall asleep watching tv. Some people will shake their heads at this but we have no bedtime issues in my house. They are welcome to come and lay down near us at any time and if it gets past when I know they need to be asleep they have to roll over and turn away from the tv. But they are occupied while relaxing and then drift to sleep. Sometimes, if they are really stressed, I'll stroke their forehead or back while they relax. But this also keeps them with everyone and not isolated.

[ozmummy]

Hmmmm

I've been thinking about this today. (falling asleep on the lounge with TV option)
I didn't shake my head at you Crystal, i was more just surprised. I have this vision of your house running so smoothly with everyone loving and considerate of each other's feelings, all routines in place to the nth degree but everyone happily doing it, and no one ever melts down. Tell me I'm wrong please

Do you do this with all your children? Do you find that they get tired at the same time each night?

I don't think I can do it. I avoid TV in general, so don't feel comfortable with that option. ANd I think my personality needs the predictability of a routine that has a more definite bedtime. After kids are in bed I usually clean for an hour or so, and go on the net, it's my "me" time.And also gets the house in order so I can face it the next morning..I'm also thinking she really needs nothing to be happening so that she can relax and fall asleep.

Would you be able to comment on my last post about what happened? She fell asleep once I had left the room - should I have left earlier?

Although I think in general I have been permissive with her at times because I fear the meltdown, so it might be about that too...she's trying to figure out if I really "mean it".

[ozmummy]

Hmmmm

I've been thinking about this today. (falling asleep on the lounge with TV option)
I didn't shake my head at you Crystal, i was more just surprised. I have this vision of your house running so smoothly with everyone loving and considerate of each other's feelings, all routines in place to the nth degree but everyone happily doing it, and no one ever melts down. Tell me I'm wrong please

Do you do this with all your children? Do you find that they get tired at the same time each night?

I don't think I can do it. I avoid TV in general, so don't feel comfortable with that option. ANd I think my personality needs the predictability of a routine that has a more definite bedtime. After kids are in bed I usually clean for an hour or so, and go on the net, it's my "me" time.And also gets the house in order so I can face it the next morning..I'm also thinking she really needs nothing to be happening so that she can relax and fall asleep.

Would you be able to comment on my last post about what happened? She fell asleep once I had left the room - should I have left earlier?

Although I think in general I have been permissive with her at times because I fear the meltdown, so it might be about that too...she's trying to figure out if I really "mean it".

[ArmsOfLove]

Originally Posted by ozmummy

Hmmmm

I've been thinking about this today. (falling asleep on the lounge with TV option)
I didn't shake my head at you Crystal, i was more just surprised. I have this vision of your house running so smoothly with everyone loving and considerate of each other's feelings, all routines in place to the nth degree but everyone happily doing it, and no one ever melts down. Tell me I'm wrong please

On my good days Nah, we have melt downs I just consider them bumps in the day and move on. Too much to do Mostly people are courteous and kind. Not always. I do have a reason to recommend the tools I do

Do you do this with all your children? Do you find that they get tired at the same time each night?

Yeah. It started, really, when dh worked nights and ds1 was a toddler and dd was a baby. I was overwhelmed at night with getting them both to sleep so I would sit and nurse dd to sleep and Liam would lay on a pillow on the floor and fall asleep. Then I'd move us all to the bedroom when I was ready to go to sleep. If they were still awake when I was ready to go to bed then that made it their bedtime. ds1 is (after not sleeping through the night until almost 3) a very consistent sleeper and most nights is asleep around 8:30. We do insist that at 8 they lay down and start resting and then, usually by 9, they are all sound asleep. Now they have a tv in the bedroom and we allow kids' shows for them in the evening and they fall asleep in bed so we don't have to move them (they get big fast )

I don't think I can do it. I avoid TV in general, so don't feel comfortable with that option. ANd I think my personality needs the predictability of a routine that has a more definite bedtime. After kids are in bed I usually clean for an hour or so, and go on the net, it's my "me" time.And also gets the house in order so I can face it the next morning..I'm also thinking she really needs nothing to be happening so that she can relax and fall asleep.

You could try a more family focused relaxing routine. What about reading chapter books to the children in the family room so long as they are laying down and relaxing, or listening to jazz. Anything to emphasize a relaxing mood. And if she needs to be alone you may still be able to try some soothing music or something that helps her make the transition and feel safe. Does she have a cuddle object? We never did lovies or anything but each of my children has, at some point, been given a special toy that they love to cuddle and sleep with and when someone is struggling with sleep it can help to offer to get them their cuddle toy.

Would you be able to comment on my last post about what happened? She fell asleep once I had left the room - should I have left earlier?

It's hard to know if leaving earlier would have had the same result. It my have just been good timing But there was a time when I'd lay down and start nursing ds1 and then excuse myself to the bathroom and when I got back each night he'd be asleep. Have you read the sticky in the nighttime parenting forum on getting children to sleep? have you tried teaching her how to go to sleep?

Although I think in general I have been permissive with her at times because I fear the meltdown, so it might be about that too...she's trying to figure out if I really "mean it".

That could very well be. It may be you need some time to, without a word, return her to the bedroom and sit outside, or just inside the door. Read your own book, do your own thing, just let her know you are there and it really is bedtime.

and she may still need an earlier bedtime Being overtired is the number one reason I've found that children struggle with sleep.

hth

[ArmsOfLove]

Originally Posted by ozmummy

Hmmmm

I've been thinking about this today. (falling asleep on the lounge with TV option)
I didn't shake my head at you Crystal, i was more just surprised. I have this vision of your house running so smoothly with everyone loving and considerate of each other's feelings, all routines in place to the nth degree but everyone happily doing it, and no one ever melts down. Tell me I'm wrong please

On my good days Nah, we have melt downs I just consider them bumps in the day and move on. Too much to do Mostly people are courteous and kind. Not always. I do have a reason to recommend the tools I do

Do you do this with all your children? Do you find that they get tired at the same time each night?

Yeah. It started, really, when dh worked nights and Liam was a toddler and dd was a baby. I was overwhelmed at night with getting them both to sleep so I would sit and nurse dd to sleep and ds1 would lay on a pillow on the floor and fall asleep. Then I'd move us all to the bedroom when I was ready to go to sleep. If they were still awake when I was ready to go to bed then that made it their bedtime. Liam is (after not sleeping through the night until almost 3) a very consistent sleeper and most nights is asleep around 8:30. We do insist that at 8 they lay down and start resting and then, usually by 9, they are all sound asleep. Now they have a tv in the bedroom and we allow kids' shows for them in the evening and they fall asleep in bed so we don't have to move them (they get big fast )

I don't think I can do it. I avoid TV in general, so don't feel comfortable with that option. ANd I think my personality needs the predictability of a routine that has a more definite bedtime. After kids are in bed I usually clean for an hour or so, and go on the net, it's my "me" time.And also gets the house in order so I can face it the next morning..I'm also thinking she really needs nothing to be happening so that she can relax and fall asleep.

You could try a more family focused relaxing routine. What about reading chapter books to the children in the family room so long as they are laying down and relaxing, or listening to jazz. Anything to emphasize a relaxing mood. And if she needs to be alone you may still be able to try some soothing music or something that helps her make the transition and feel safe. Does she have a cuddle object? We never did lovies or anything but each of my children has, at some point, been given a special toy that they love to cuddle and sleep with and when someone is struggling with sleep it can help to offer to get them their cuddle toy.

Would you be able to comment on my last post about what happened? She fell asleep once I had left the room - should I have left earlier?

It's hard to know if leaving earlier would have had the same result. It my have just been good timing But there was a time when I'd lay down and start nursing Liam and then excuse myself to the bathroom and when I got back each night he'd be asleep. Have you read the sticky in the nighttime parenting forum on getting children to sleep? have you tried teaching her how to go to sleep?

Although I think in general I have been permissive with her at times because I fear the meltdown, so it might be about that too...she's trying to figure out if I really "mean it".

That could very well be. It may be you need some time to, without a word, return her to the bedroom and sit outside, or just inside the door. Read your own book, do your own thing, just let her know you are there and it really is bedtime.

and she may still need an earlier bedtime Being overtired is the number one reason I've found that children struggle with sleep.

hth

It sounds like you are getting it down I was going to suggest the different bedtimes. I always put the most active to bed first (my 5y/o ). I found that if I put my 3y/o (Ilana) to bed first my 5y/o (Kendra) gets hyper and will jump around literally jumping off the walls (jumps on the bed and bounces right off the wall ). If Ilana happens to be asleep when Kendra comes to bed Kendra wakes her up. Even if I stay in the room with them Kendra talks and wiggles. If I put her to bed first she falls asleep on her own and is out. She's honestly the easiest to get to sleep by herself though. When she was 2, she would tell us she was tired and go to bed But if she has someone with her she gets wound up.