Obedience?

[chelsea]

I have a sincere question: I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God. The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?) I have seen friends whose children are disobedient and ignore and dishonor their parents and I want the quality of joyful obedience to be instilled in my son but I don't know if this is a good thing to want or if it is just the remains of the punitive approach lingering in my mind. Please let me know what you think...I believe in GBD but I have absolutely no role models to ask as I grew up surrounded by familes, friends, and churches who promoted using "the rod".

[milkmommy]

Originally Posted by chelsea

I have a sincere question: I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God. The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?) I have seen friends whose children are disobedient and ignore and dishonor their parents and I want the quality of joyful obedience to be instilled in my son but I don't know if this is a good thing to want or if it is just the remains of the punitive approach lingering in my mind. Please let me know what you think...I believe in GBD but I have absolutely no role models to ask as I grew up surrounded by familes, friends, and churches who promoted using "the rod".

I don't require my child to subit to my will, I hate the term obedience to me it seems to be a blind jerk reaction. "I do because if I don't mommy will hit me with that stick" Instead I choose to model and reflect proper behavior and earn the trust of my Child.
What does "joyfull obedience" mean?

Deanna

[mummy2boys]

Deanna.....good question

[ozmummy]

I am not as clear a thinker or expresser as some here, so I will just add a couple of things.

The emphasis on "first time etc" obedience is so external, is the child just being taught that as long as they look right/do right it's OK? No matter what's going on in their heart. God is interested in obedience from the heart, not our just going through the motions - that would be like the pharisees that Jesus was so critical of...
Does "joyful obedience" mean that their real emotional responses need to be smothered (If they are having a negative response to a particular request)? and does that mean that the child is not being taught/helped to deal with their negative emotions? I like that GBD allows negative emotions, names them, and helps children to deal with them. It is such a dangerous thing for us to only allow our children to express "good"/happy emotions., or that they are only acceptable to us when they are happy.
GBD still requires obedience, but it is infused with grace...."this is what needs to occur, and I will provide exactly the level of help you need for it to happen." And yes, sometimes we will get *surprise* first time, joyful obedience, and that's great. But GBD also allows us to deal with those negative responses in a way that understands where our child is at, and helps him. But in the end, the initial command/request will still be fulfilled = obedience.

Great subject! I'm glad you brought this up, b/c I think forced "obedience" is one of the hardest things to let go of when we change parenting approaches. I could say a lot about it, b/c I struggled for a long time just to grasp the ideas, and applying it on a day-to-day basis is still tough. The first thing I would point out is that there's a difference b/t obedience and compliance. (Crystal can clarify this if I don't explain it very well! :P) I can't force my kids to obey me, b/c "obedience" implies a certain willingness.. it is a CHOICE on the part of the person who is responding. It comes from within. I can require compliance on issues that I am capable of enforcing. For ex.: my 3yo doesn't want to come with me, so I let him know I require his compliance--he can do it himself, or I will help him. He won't come, so I pick him up and carry him. I've made my directive happen. I required compliance over an issues I could control. If I were trying to force obedience, I would spank him then give him a chance to "obey" then spank again and wait for him to "obey", etc. If you have a very strong-willed child on your hands, that scenario quickly degenerates to abuse or simply remains unresolved, thus undermining the parents authority and destroying the child's sense of trust, safety, and mutual respect. Using a punishment other than spanking doesn't change the end result. The only thing being taught there is how to be a bully--that it's ok to use their larger size, strength, or position of authority to force others to bend to their will..... and believe me, children internalize that lesson quickly and act it out on others around them--either during their childhood, or after they grow up and become the "big person."

I have been raised to believe that obedience is required at all costs, and that the punitive way is the only way to achieve this. All the books well-meaning people have given me imply that you MUST make your children obey so they can learn the importance of obeying God

I think *some* children can be forced to fairly consistent "obedience" (actually compliance) through punitive measures, though they will carry the emotional damage cause by that approach. Others cannot. (Trust me--I grew up with one of them. ) Requiring obedience is pretty arrogant on the part of parents... and I was one of those arrogant parents in the past. God doesn't instruct parents to force obedience from our children. He instructs *children* to "Obey your parents in the Lord." A child has to be emotionally mature enough to willingly follow this Biblical instruction, and HE is responsible for doing it. We as parents should spend their formative years teaching them what obedience means, helping them to do it when they are not able to bring their bodies/minds/feelings under control, and modeling obedience to God.

. Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic? Does GBD emphasize obedience or is obedience simply a byproduct of non-punitive discipline? (or is it something I should not even be focused on?)

Do we as adults display this? Is it realistic for a mature Christian to consistently obey God the first time, immediately, and completely? Does God even expect this from us? I believe He instructs us to be obedient, but He also teaches us how, gives us second chances, guides us, gives us time to think/pray and struggle over decisions, and actually provides us with the grace, strength, internal peace, and mental/spiritual reassurance to do things when we don't have the strength to do it for ourselves. If God reaches out so far to help us obey, why wouldn't we do the same for our children?

I believe true obedience is a byproduce of a changed heart--something only God can do. I can and do require my children to comply with directives.

I completely agree with what Ozmummy said regarding emotions and teaching children to maintain appearances, etc. Attempting to force obedience handicaps kids in multiple ways b/c it teaches them suppress emotions, blindly follow authority figures, and behave in ways that pacify/please those around them at the expense of making intelligent, thoughtful, educated choices.

There is an excellent thread about Jonah that addresses some of these issues... I don't remember if it was on this board or the temp board, but I'll try to find and post it.

Looking forward to some more discussion of this. There were some great threads about Obedience on the old board, and they really helped me to develop in my understanding of GBD. It's hard to show grace and gentleness to someone while simultaneously demanding unquestioning obedience and submission.

[ArmsOfLove]

Palil--that was so beautifully summed up--no corrections needed whatsoever

To answer the OP . . . Children who are non-compliant and disobedient are coming from, typically, a permissive situation. They are not being taught to be those things. There are no, or questionable, boundaries and little or no expectations. Or what does exist isn't expressed so the child can understand it.

In the original Hebrew and Greek the words translated "obey" mean so much more than our idea of compliance--which is doing what you're told. In English there isn't much difference between "obey" and "comply'--but in Hebrew and Greek there is. In the Biblical languages obedience is something that a mature person chooses to do because the one being obeyed has earned their trust and shown that they are looking out for their best interest. We love God because he first loved us. It involves a level of understanding and commitment that is not present in little children. And the Biblical instructions to "obey your father and mother" are written to the person called to obey--not to the parents to force their children to obey. No where in the Bible are parents told to make their children obey. The idea that we can force it involves levels of control and egomania that are unhealthy for us as parents!

Control is a limited commodity--each of us is given just enough to control ourselves. *Self-Control*--and that is a fruit of the Sprit (and we can't force fruit to grow ). When we take the control that we have and direct it at someone else it becomes other control and that is always manipulate and ineffective. When other control is directed at our children they lose the opportunities for developing self control and are modelled using control to try and control others--so that is what they are taught to do. This creates a legacy of people trying to manipulate and get their way at others' expense. When I direct my control at myself, however, the way God intended, I live a controlled and disciplined life. I model that for my children and I help them develop and use their own self control and we are able to coexist peacefully. I don't have to get anyone to bend their will to mine--rather they are learning to choose self control and to trust the people in authority over them. That trust combined with self-control will mature into obedience.

The definition of obedience being something like "First time, immediate, and complete". Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic?

Rather than unrealistic, I'd suggest it's unhealthy. This is the definition of "first time obedience" but not true "obedience". The example that has always perplexed me with regards to the idea of first time obedience is Jesus himself in the Garden of Gethsemene. If Jesus has performed "first time obedience" he would have smiled all the way to the cross and not even thought about not wanting to go there for us. After all, that is what the Father required. Instead, we see Jesus praying in the Garden 3 times that if it was possible the cup would pas from his hands; sweating blood in anguish for what lay ahead; and being heavy hearted as he obeyed. Obey he did! Thank God! And God desires (not requires) obedience from us as well. Yet when God was here in human form he modelled for us self control that does not fit the definition of first time obedience--that idea is nowhere in Scripture.

At the same time first tme compliance is a worthy goal--as is first time obedience to God my personal goal Life is more enjoyable when my children respond to my first call, and I get more done if I'm not having to follow my children around constantly micromanaging their behavior. In our GBD home I don't have a problem with these things. If I say something is going to be done then it gets done--compliance is required even if I end up helping them. And we have a pretty peaceful environment with lots of cooperation--that is set up as the standard of expected behavior. What I don't require is more than I am able to do myself or expectations that are unrealistic based on so many things including Scripture and their appropriate age development.

hth

Children who are non-compliant and disobedient are coming from, typically, a permissive situation.

Or... they are just born that way. Really... there are some like this .

(btw... great subject. My printer's getting a work out today)

[MarynMunchkins]

Everything has been so beatuifully said. It made me just to read it.

I am teaching my children to be thinkers and to make well reasoned choices. I'm also teaching them to respect authority.

It's sad but true that there is as much a socioeconomic divide at work here as a religious one. People who are better educated don't tend to want their children to learn how to blindly obey, they want their children to be thinkers and eventually assume some leadership role.

People on the lower rungs of the social ladder are forced to submit to the will of others. They are socializing their children to obey blindly because, it's assumed consciously or not, they will assume roles that require them to be submissive in this world.

It has more to do with this than our faith in Jesus.

Debra Baker

[BluegrassMama]

Palil I loved your post!

[greenemama]

Originally Posted by DebraBaker

It's sad but true that there is as much a socioeconomic divide at work here as a religious one. People who are better educated don't tend to want their children to learn how to blindly obey, they want their children to be thinkers and eventually assume some leadership role.

People on the lower rungs of the social ladder are forced to submit to the will of others. They are socializing their children to obey blindly because, it's assumed consciously or not, they will assume roles that require them to be submissive in this world.

wow, that's heavy!

i also want to add that those who are obsessive about forcing their children to obey are normally also very controlling in their other relationship, relationships to their spouses, work relationships, church relationships. and that in turn is modelled to their children, who take that as normal and continue on that same path. it's a hard cycle to break!

and i personally think it's really scary when people require instant, blind obedience of their children, especially when they require that sort of respect to all adults. it just opens the door for abusive situations.

chelsea -- i know what you mean -- it's taken a long time to stop running everything about GBD through my punitive mindset seive.

Originally Posted by greenemama

wow, that's heavy!

i also want to add that those who are obsessive about forcing their children to obey are normally also very controlling in their other relationship, relationships to their spouses, work relationships, church relationships. and that in turn is modelled to their children, who take that as normal and continue on that same path. it's a hard cycle to break!

and i personally think it's really scary when people require instant, blind obedience of their children, especially when they require that sort of respect to all adults. it just opens the door for abusive situations.

chelsea -- i know what you mean -- it's taken a long time to stop running everything about GBD through my punitive mindset seive.

And may I add to *that*, in my experience, control issues stem from nothing but fear; fear that the children will fail, fear of what someone else thinks of us, fear of our children "going down the wrong path", fear of personal failure, etc. And doesn't God tell us not to have a spirit of fear?

[kris10s]

Paula, you did an excellent job addressing this!

We are right to avoid the whole "right away, the cheerful way, all the way" obedience trap. Obedience is from the heart and can't be forced upon children by controlling or well meaning parents. However, I think it was good to point out that we can and should require our children to be compliant. I nannyed for a very rich and well-educated couple whose children asked "why?" whenever you gave them a directive or even a suggestion. The parents thought this was great (intellectual curiousity, free-spirited thinking, etc.) but it got old REALLY quick.

[chelsea]

Wow, you guys have all been very insightful! Thanks for your input! I had already been thinking of how "Chidren, obey your parents in the Lord" is given to children, and not to us as parents...so to read it again on here was "perfect timing" (as God's timing always is.)

[snlmama]

Is this "First time, immediate, and complete obedience" an achievable goal or is it unrealistic?

Sorry, but I'm going to respond w/o reading all the other posts b/c I have definite opinions on this. TBH, teaching children "first time, immediate and complete obedience" is scary and dangerous to me. My kids generally obey. They know when I say "stop" in a certain tone they'd better stop and they do. But, in a more general sense, I want them to learn to use the sense God gave them and I don't want them obeying other people immediately and w/o question. I want them to know that it's OK to say "no" and run away if someone is trying to force them to do something they know is wrong. The children I know who have the first time obedience down scare me b/c they will literally do exactly what any adult tells them to immediately and w/o question. I prefer that my children learn to be assertive and capable of protecting themselves rather than passive and "obedient."