Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Someone suggested that this topic would be a good spin-off topic from the Michael Pearl mess since I mentioned on that thread that Kirk Cameron recommends Ted Tripp's parenting resources on his website and claims that he uses them continually with his children. As he is very influential, it seems an important topic to discuss respectfully of course.So, I am starting the topic.
First off, I want to say, that I do not think Kirk Cameron is a "bad" person. I think he genuinely believes he is being a good Christian and is listening to the teachings of others who claim that their teachings are biblical and right.
There are a bunch of links in which state his endorsement of Ted Tripp's teachings. if you like I can post broken links of them tomorrow. i am a substitute postal carrier and will be back home late tomorrow afternoon. well, the time varies as it depends on the mail count witch is variable.
Goodnight and happy thoughts.☺

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

One of the Bible teachers who is posting wonderful blogs arguing against Pearl's teachings also recommends Tripp. I can't really understand it. You can find links on my website. He's the one where I say, "a pastor who uses Tedd Tripp's teachings in his church, speaks out against Pearl's teachings."

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Im not fam. W/trip..what is his platform?
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Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

One of the things that disturbed me most when I read his book was where he describes taking his daughter upstairs for chastisement, and as they made their way downstairs afterwards, he said, "You don't look sweet enough yet. I think we need to go back upstairs until you're sweet." :sick

I'm sorry, I don't have the book in front of me, so I can't give page numbers or quotes. I'm going from memory here. A lot of the good things in his book echo the "tying heart strings" concept that the Pearls teach, and I think a lot of parents like that idea. Then they throw the icky stuff like that in. He teaches not only that spanking is okay, but it's necessary and required by the Bible. He pretty much teaches that a child's salvation depends on it.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:cup

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

i'm :popcorn for more info on TT. the church i attend womens bible study at is doing a parenting class by paul david tripp, which i can only assume is the DVD series with his brother ted. a lot of my IRL friends go here...so i;m :( but also interested to know more about what TT says, so i can be prepared for any conversations that may come up.

ETA: i did a little more digging and found SACH and BW on the recommended parental resources page on the churches website. does it seem odd that a church would recommend book on sleep training? it seems a little out of line to me. i am disppointed, expecially since after their blog had some awesome articles, like a very favorable commentary on the Christianity Today article from January. sigh. sorry for the hijack...back to the regularly scheduled thread.

is there anywhere to read a summary of the SACH info?

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Info on Ted Tripp here.

If that link doesn't put you at post #3, scroll down to it.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I'm very sorry that is how you perceived his position through the book. I attend the church that he pastors and that is not at all what he teaches, believes or advocates. I have been told not to spank my children at all and encouraged more than I am ready to recount at the moment on my recovery from parenting ala Pearl. In fact if you even mention the TTUAC book you can see visible disgust in the eyes of Pastor Tedd and Margy. They are very kind, patient and loving people and I do admit it doesn't necessarily come though in the book but my entire family owes them a debit of gratitude as the healing that has happened as we have detoxed from TTUAC is amazing and for the very first time I can see that my children's salvation most certainly does not depend on anything outside of Christ.

I understand that there are a great deal of ladies here who find even the mere concept of spanking so repugnant that it is impossible to see those who advocate it as anything but monsters themselves writing child abuse manuals and I agree with that in regards to the Pearls due to my own experience.

I am here to learn more about gentle discipline using logical consequences since that is what type of discipline I was advised to use.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Thank you for your input, Striving4Grace! I appreciate it.

I'm another who would like more info on Ted Tripp because my parents really like him...

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:coffee

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:scratch

I do not know what to say. SACH is HIS book-HIS BOOK advocates what amounts to abuse. I am confused. You go to HIS church and he dislike a book he wrote? Am I missing something? My friends church just did a SACH course and she said it advocated spanking as the removal of sin.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

So Ted told you himself not to spank "AT ALL"?

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

They have written a new book called Instructing a Child's Heart that is, IMO vastly different to SACH. I own it so I can answer pointed questions with direct quotes and page numbers if anyone would like. I'm not yet finished with it, though.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

There are shades of gray to much in life and this is no exception. I don't equate Tripp and Pearl - very few people do I put in the same category as Michael Pearl. But I do think that Tripp teaches some ideas that are illogical and damaging. I will give credit where due - he does spend a lot of time talking about the need for relationship with your children. I am thrilled that he sees the Pearl's teachings for the twisted mess that they are and that he is helping families recover from it.

BUT, his writing still must stand for themselves. While teaching about relationship in parenting he also teaches two very distrubing concepts - 'spank them 'til they're sweet' (my words, not his), which is the idea that requires a child to fake an emotion pleasing to the parent to avoid more physical pain; and the concept of the 'heart to bottom connection'. If we could change someone's heart by beating them, lets start with the adults - but we can't and that is not how Christ taught us to relate to people. I could almost understand someone who claims a pure behavior modification motivation for spanking over a teaching that proports that pain can change the motivations of a child's heart.

If you have a personal relationship with Ted Tripp and would be willing to ask him about the two above concerns, I would love to hear what he has to say. Otherwise, we have to evaluate an author on his words and discern their value or potentially negative consequences on that alone.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

What does IACH say about discipline? It is touted as a accompaniment to SACH.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

SACH does say this.

Six Little Feet, she was referring to TTUAC the Pearl's book, not SACH. I was confused too until I reread it.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Striving4Grace - I would LOVE to hear more about Instructing a Child's Heart! I saw on the Amazon reviews that this has been published 13 years after SACH, and I would be so interested to hear of any changes in his philosophies.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

OH OK!! To may initials......

---------- Post added at 08:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 PM ----------

SACH was in my church's library and I got it removed. One of the reasons is that in Canada was Tripp was teaching is illegal.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Shepherding A Child's Heart talks about relationships, but also talks about spanking if the child doesn't show fist time obedience. The only example I recall was the child being told it's bedtime and to put away to crayons and colorbooks. The child should be spanked if they asked to continue coloring before getting up-they should immediately start cleaning up and THEN ask to continue. I found that strange; why can't they ask me if they can keep coloring if they want? I can always say no! :scratch
I do think that spanking damages the relationship between parents and child, therefore I think that it has no business in my parenting tool box. Have I used it? absolutely. Did it work? right away, yeah, but it took me a long time to rebuild what i destroyed by using that tool.
I could remodel my house with a hammer, and work on one room at a time, or I could use a bulldozer, and have to rebuild every room at once. The bulldozer is easier right away, but rebuilding each room at the same time wouldn't be worth the first time ease of the bulldozer.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

In SACH, Tripp also advocates spanking a 9 month old baby for wiggling during a diaper change. :sick

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Well you will not find support for Tripp or his teachings here, I am very grateful that in your case they helped you see free from the Pear's and TTUAC. I am praying for you and your family-and am so glad that God lead you here.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I found some quotes from SACH:

Page 106: “’Punish him [a child] with the rod and save his soul from death’ (Proverbs 23:14). Your children’s souls are in danger of death—spiritual death. Your task is to rescue your children from death. Faithful and timely use of the rod is the means of rescue.”

Page 151 “Remove his drawers so that the spanking is not lost in the padding of his pants.”

Page 152: "On some occasions we have had to say to our children, ‘Dear, Daddy has spanked you, but you are not sweet enough yet. We are going to have to go back upstairs for another spanking.'”

Page 154 “Rebellion can be something as simple as an infant struggling against a diaper change or stiffening his body when you want him to sit on your lap. The discipline procedure is the same as laid out above."

FTR, I don't think he's a monster, and I don't think he's as awful as Pearl. But I do think he is wrong and, moreover, he is advising parents to do wrong and damaging things to their children in the name of Jesus and salvation. :( I'm also very glad to hear he has a new book that is very different from his old teachings. The only Tripp book in my library is his former one, and that's what most people are familiar with. I do hope that he has changed his heart and his teachings.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:sick:mad:cry:sick

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:cup

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:cup

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I have heard Ted speak and was absolutely charmed by his deeply spiritual approach, his gentle tone, his arresting focus on shepherding children towards Jesus.

I have read an essay he wrote some years ago (but considerably more recently than SACH,) and thought, "this man totally gets grace!" It felt like there was some kind of cognitive dissonance or something between the concepts he talked about in that article, and the practices and attitudes he promoted in SACH. I hoped and prayed that he was on a journey in his understanding how God's grace might impact our parenting -- we all are on that journey.

Mommas, such growth is something to be welcomed and celebrated. It will be interesting to read Instructing a Child's Heart.

I am glad the Tripps have been helpful to you, Striving4Grace, in your healing from TTUAC. I completely agree that the Tripps are in a different (better) league than the Pearls.

---------- Post added at 09:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:13 AM ----------

abh5e8, it absolutely is odd. Babywise essentially is an infant management program. (But it's underlying message is that its approach lays the foundation of proper parental authority and improves the child's moral standing. The Ezzos speak to cherished hopes of young Christian parents, and that is what makes the book more dangerous than other scheduling books that don't equate sticking to the schedule as matters of godly authority and morality.)

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

From IACH pg 116: "Only God can ultimately draw our children to himself. God is the one who will convince them of truth, so they love him and fear him, in spite of the loud attractions of foolishness around them. Our instruction as parents, grandparents and teachers is one of the means he uses (Deut 4:10)
Another means is our faithful and continuous prayers for our young people (Col 1:9-14)

From the chapter "The Sowing and Reaping Principle of Scripture": There are two types of consequences: natural consequences and consequences shaped by authorities. (then goes on to illustrate what a natural consequence is)
Consequences shaped by authority are those where the authority determines the outcome that is called for to underscore the principle or absolute in Scripture. Notice my definition - authorities do not have the right to shape consequences so that children learn "to never do that again if they know what is good for them" (goes on to expand on what he means) Help children to recognize that consequences are not "what I am doing to you" but "what you have brought about by the choices you have made." "You are reaping what you have sown!"

Biblical consequences must be reasonable and logical.:heart

pp70-71

There's so much more good stuff there but I don't know if I'd be over by sharing the remainder of that paragraph. I have not read SACH and I don't plan to because I feel IACH is all I really need. From the excerpts from SACH shared here I can see why they felt the need to write a new book, that does sound like them at all. :cry

I appreciate the prayers going up for our family, it's a hard road and a huge shift in thinking to leave behind the TTUAC mindset and I fail a lot but praise God I have stopped spanking and have rarely been resorting to time outs. :praise

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

That is so awesome! :heart :rockon :praise :hug I'd be interested in hearing more about your story of leaving TTUAC behind. Welcome to GCM! :heart :heart

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:popcorn I'm intrested too and :welcome

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

So has Tripp officially retracted his teachings from the first book in the second? I have seen such things before, where a pastor or other leader will publish a book with something of a disclaimer in the author's notes or prologue that says something about God changing their heart/opening their eyes and that they apologize for anyone mislead or damage caused by their previous teachings, but that they were teaching what they fully believed to be God's will as they perceived it at the time.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

:cup

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Yes, when you are ready to tell the story, I have room for it in the Testimonies section of my website.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I don't think Tripp has retracted his stance on spanking, I believe that IACH is not an updated version a SACH but a accompaniment to it. I watched the preview fro IACH DVD and it it talks about, "foundation for corrective discipline", first time obedience, and keeping kids inside the circle God has drawn for them. It still sounds like the same old Tripp to me.

I am not saying that Tripp did not touch your family is a important way BUT while he was leading to away from a punitive dynamic it is very possible that at the same time he was leading 100's towards it.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

First of all, thank you for taking the time to write that up for us. I am very interested to read IACH now!

Secondly, thank you for sharing so bravely and openly here about your journey away from the Pearls' teachings. I am so glad you found GCM and I am praying you will be encouraged on your journey here.

If you do feel you want to tell more of your family's story, I hope you will find this is a safe place to share that.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

The bolded part keeps jumping out at me...the same shaming, "this is your fault that I have to chastise/spank/punish you" mindset as it has always been.

Granted I don't have the entire context, but the wording of this still sends up alarm bells for me. :shrug

I am also interested to know if he has retracted his older teachings. If he hasn't/won't - that makes it clear where his heart/theology remain.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Hmmmmmm.

When I read that, I guess I tend to think more of Love and Logic type reasoning. "This is the choice you made, and this is the consequence of that choice." I use that often in my scripts with my girls, not in a shaming way, but more to emphasize the power of the choices we make.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I see where you are coming from. :yes

What I am saying is that if he still advocated spanking...then that statement is applying to that, as well as whatever else he uses in his toolbox. And that is damaging/dangerous enough to still make me :sick

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

I totally see what you're saying!

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

well, they [SACH] are still being sold all over the internet. apparently he still believes in them enough to make a little $$ off of them. i can only imagine and assume that as a pastor if you actually had a change of heart and felt your previous work was harmful or incorrect you would make sure to take those books off the market. :shrug3

i did notice that the 1998 version of SACH is "revised and updated." anyone know what those changes may have been about?

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:49 PM ----------

thank you so much for your courage to share!!! and welcome and hugs to GCM. we are so glad you are hear. i'm glad TT offered you such wonderful advice. i'm curious as to why though, as it goes against so much of his published and written work.

the second bold is mine....and i just wanted to clarify, while that is the statement of beliefs of GCM, the teachings of TT go far beyond the "mere concept of spanking." they advocate spanking an infant of less than 9 months of age, admitidedly even before knowing if that child in fact is exhibiting true "rebellion."

SACH Page 154 "You have no way of knowing how much a child a year old or less can understand of what you say, but we do know that understanding comes long before the ability to articulate does….When our oldest child was approximately 8 months old….Obviously he was old enough to be disciplined.”

and finally....just an added concern of mine is his use of proof-texting scripture. his use of hebrews 12:11 is grossly out of context. this verse is directed to adults facing persecution for their faith, not children being physically hit by their parents.

SACH Page 152 “We have always been guided by Hebrews 12:11 ‘No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.’ If discipline has not yielded a harvest of peace and righteousness, it is not finished. On some occasions we have had to say to our children, ‘Dear, Daddy has spanked you, but you are not sweet enough yet. We are going to have to go back upstairs for another spanking.”

the misuse of scripture is very important to me, and is enough to consider the works of this person not something that would be helpful in learning and loving the scriptures and our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. :heart:heart

just wanted to add this...as they spanking is not the ONLY issue i have with the teachings of TT.

Re: Kirk Cameron and Ted Tripp
 

Striving4Grace - I'm so glad you are here and bringing your perspective to the discussion.

I can very much see how those who trust Tripp would still see the Pearl's teachings as abusive. I know Dobson (a punitive parenting guru) says that parents who have been abused or feel themselves likely to abuse shouldn't consider spanking, but spanking is still encouraged generally by his teachings. Could it be that someone specifically said you should not spank because your thinking patterns were influenced by the Pearl's, but that they are considering your circumstances specifically as an exception?

Another thing to be careful about, even when all other advice is good, is when the concept of defiance is presented as something to be especially feared. That has a way of coloring interactions because the definition of defiance can broaden over time. That's Dobson's main downfall, IMO, that he would present spanking as a response to defiance as only necessary occasionally, but that the concept will end up influencing interactions much more often in practice. I hope someone can read IACH and figure out if it's built on that paradigm or not - that's a key characteristic that delineates parenting philosophies, IMO.

Oh, yeah, and don't put a Ten Commandments level of law to your desire to choose reasonable and logical consequences. There's some room for error as long as your intentions are good. Grace is for mamas, too.