Spanking "works"
 

I come from a punitive background. Both Mom and Dad spanked all of us kids growing up. So, I'm not sure how to respond to this idea, as set forth by some of my punitive family members and friends, that "spanking works." I have heard from several people that they spank because it "works" and nothing else will "work" with certain types of kids with specific temperaments.

:nails

I'm not trying to argue with people or win them over :no I know when to pass the bean dip, thanks to you lovely ladies here :heart But I do want to work out, mostly for myself, how to respond to such claims...I just don't know what to say.

Part of me thinks the operative word is "works," and I need to hear others' thoughts.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

"Lots of parenting tools work. I am looking for the tools that work best for my children."

You not telling them they are wrong whether you believe they are or not. You are affirming that you are parenting effectively as well in combination with the specific personalities of your own children.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Works for what, though?

Works to incite a fear response? Yes.
Works to gain compliance? Sometimes.
Works to deter children from disobedience? Nope.
Makes them learn to hide their disobedience better? You betcha.

Works to build the relationship and trust that allows for discipleship? Nope.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

depends on what they mean by "works"

does it stop the behavior? eventually. So does GOYB.

To me the biggest problems with spanking aren't whether or not it "works" but the following: (quick thoughts off the top of my head)

It's lazy parenting. It's easy to just spank at eveything rather than actually problem solve.

It drives a wedge b/w the parent and child. The child isn't going to trust the adult as much b/c they will always be worried about getting a spanking. Any of the PP/GBD/GOYB parenting styles help prevent this b/c they take away punishment.

It doesn't show God to our kids. In spite what people like to say, God does NOT spank us when we misbehave. Natural consequences (which God is pretty expert at) is not the same as spanking.

Spanking drives the kids "underground". The sneakiest kids I've ever known were always spanked.

Spanking does not provide a better alternative to the child for the misbehavior.

It makes the parent feel good and like they are doing "something" so it sets up a false sense of "works". It also leaves no option when it isn't working except to spank harder, more often or for more things.

Finally, people who think it works are going to see that it works b/c that is what they expect, kwim?

---------- Post added at 09:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:40 AM ----------

or what Allison said better and more consicely. ;)

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Of course spanking works.

Everybody knows that pain and the threat of pain change behaviour (to the degree that it is possible for a person to change it).

That's what works in abusive situations. It also worked in consentration camps. It works on animals. I wouldn't be surprised if if worked on worms or ameboeas.

It would be plum-stupid to claim that spanking doesn't work on children (within the limits of development).

Do you know what else "works" in human relationships? Extortion, bribery, captivity, enslavement, blackmail, theft, deception, manipulation, intoxication, propoganda, hypnosis (maybe not), isolation -- personal violence is not the only thing that "works" but isn't right.

The reason we avoid doing these things to other people is not because they wouldn't work... we avoid doing them because they are morally wrong. Lots of morally-wrong tactics "work" just fine. Many of them "work" really, really well. But we just don't do those things, because it's wrong to treat people that way.

I'm getting used to this space of the logic of:
If A: It's wrong to hit people...
And B: Children are people...
Therefore: It's wrong to hit children.

If that's true, it doesn't matter in the slightest if it "works".

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I wouldn't get into it with them, but spanking didn't "work" for me and my parents didn't know that it didn't work for me until I told them when I was 26 years old :no So really... how do they know it "works" unless what they mean is "stops visible undesirable behavior?" Sure, I seemed to be better behaved. When my parents were there and I knew I couldn't "get away" with misbehaving :shrug3 My heart was still rebellious and being spanked just made me about as furious as a person can ever be!

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I'm not interested in good behavior as much as I am good relationships. Spanking doesn't work for that.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Very wise words so far so I'll just add my story:

I was spanked and it "worked" to get me to obey but really all I learned was that if I could get away with something I avoided the punishment. I got really good at becoming the person my parents wanted me to be on the outside and rebelled on the inside.

And it ruined my relationship with my parents. How could I trust someone that hit me? I never really respected my parents, I pretended. I do not have a good relationship with my parents but if you asked them they would think it was fine :sigh

My son respects me because I respected him first :yes

Re: Spanking "works"
 

:popcorn

Re: Spanking "works"
 

:subbing

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Are you wondering inside yourself why (or whether) spanking doesn't work? If you are convicted, is it a question of how to articulte your beliefs? I think it matters who you're talking to. With my own mother, I've learned to be diplomatic to preserve that cherished (but very emotionally loaded) relationship.

With other friends or relatives? If they are lucky I will pass them bean dip. Or I might read them the riot act and not shut up until the room is cleared. I have very strong feelings and get provoked quickly. But my most succinct response to any spanking discussion is, "if only I could spank without hitting my kids!"

Re: Spanking "works"
 

:rockon

Re: Spanking "works"
 

When I was "confronted" on Facebook about my recent blog post regarding gentle discipline (it was a "coming out" of sorts for me), I realized that I hadn't worked out within myself exactly why spanking "doesn't work" and therefore couldn't articulate it when I wanted to.

One person I want to be able to articulate to is DH. He was spanked growing up but has pretty good relationships with his parents :shrug3

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Just because something is effective does not mean it is also appropriate.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Ask him if he ever
*decided that the disobediant thing he wanted to do was worth the spanking
*was afraid to admit doing wrong to get out of a spanking
*lied to avoid a spanking
*processed by swapping spanking horror stories with his friends
*flinched when he saw a raised hand (or belt or spoon)
*figured all that mattered was whether or not he got caught
* was confused or angry because he did not know exactly why he got spanked (or figured it was not fair)


I was not spanked but I was raised with shaming as a huge discipline tool. I was a good kid and got along with my parents and do now. BUt I had automatic reactions and fears based on how I was parented. I went to counseling about them since I was already there for some ADHD stuff. And even with total reconciliation when I mess up my first instinct is to cover what I did and second is hearing the voice of my dad yelling in my head.


My goal is not obedience now and goes beyond getting along. It is raising mature ADULTS. Shortcuts lead to lesser end results and punishment/spanking is a shortcut. I want kids/adults who are not afraid own up to their mistakes, do right because they want to do the right thing, and are not carrying baggage and incorrect instincts.

---------- Post added at 02:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

Also - in many cases spanking DOESN'T work and you have to keep upping the ante.:(

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I was spanked, and I as an adult have a very good relationship with my parents. :yes

That doesn't mean that I want to do everything the same way they did, KWIM? They did what they did at the time because they thought they were doing the right thing-I hold no hard feelings toward them for it.

But I have reasons that I don't want to spank my kids. Some of them are related to how *I* reacted to spanking-ways that my parents still don't know. I can acknowledge that something hurt me/wasn't a good idea/is something I don't want to repeat without having a terrible relationship with my parents.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Thanks, Heather, for this especially: So true.

Carrie, thanks for sharing your perspective as someone who was raised being spanked, has a good relationship w/ her parents, yet has still chosen not to spank:heart I really appreciate it.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I think any discipline tool will "work" if it's used consistently. Spanking is an easy tool to implement than gentler methods, and so it's easier to be consistant.

I have seen spanking not work on some kids because in general their parents are never clear and consistent on what is acceptable behavior and have constantly changing and evolving rules that don't even make sense.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I agree . . . of course tons of people swear it "works," they spank and see what they want to see. You can give them all the facts in the world but they won't listen if it means admitting they're wrong (and might have hit their children for no good reason). Just remember they are answering a different question than you want to ask. Why does it "work"? Can you take the parts that "work" (authority, prompt response, consistency) without the pain and fear of spanking?

I was spanked growing up and many things "worked." For years I said I was "fine" but you know what? I could be better. I could have less fear and anger inside. I want better for my children. I want to love them as best I can. Did Jesus spank little children? (Does society even spank our worst criminals, even prisoners of war?) Why don't my children deserve better? How can we give them our BEST?

I don't want to and don't need to spank, and that's not about whether it works for other people. And in my experience your husband will learn this best by your example. :heart

Re: Spanking "works"
 

:) Thanks, ladies.
I guess I'm optimistic and hopeful that we'll come to an agreement on this issue (and approach parenting with similar mindsets) BEFORE we have kids. I can foresee a lot of tension if we have a child and he still wants to spank. I know it's not impossible and that many of you awesome mamas here have set good examples for your husbands. That's encouraging to me. I'd really love if he and I could agree on this issue, though.

...and I know I can't change his heart or his mind :no I'm just trying to educate myself so that when we do discuss it in conversation, I can be well-equipped to give an answer for my conviction :heart

Re: Spanking "works"
 

i know people who are still spanking their 8 yr olds..even up to 14 in one family! its like, when do they admit 'ok, this is NOT working' ..or "did this EVER work?" whats the desired result i wonder? do they know once they've reached it? what does it look like when it works?

it just makes no sense.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I have seen it used consistently and yet the literal sting wears off. Kids brace for it, endure, then misbehave again :shrug3

Spanking TEACHES nothing.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

But does it really work when you must spank a few days later for the same offense? Or you can GOYB and help them or make it happen many times and eventually they learn. Either way, it takes time. I think I first heard Crystal say that on one hand you can spank or GBD on the other and either way, once they reach the developmental stage they move out of that behavior. The one lady says it is the result of her spanking, but really we see the child may have just caught up cognitively with what the parents were requiring.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Bolt I liked what you said, could I use what you said on facebook?? (quote you?)

Spanking can work, depending on your goal... is your goal just "obedient" children? Is it children who are learning to think about their actions and how they effect others? Is it raising children that have a mind of their own? My goal is not "obedient" children so spanking won't work toward my goal in parenting.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

What is "now" is likely not "what will be".

Dh and I both throught spanking was just part of parenting, until I realized what it had done to me and put the brakes on. Read a bit, found GCM. Got pregnant.

DH? He was Mr. Physical Discipline, pro-circumcision, some CIO is fine, vaccines re a probability...

Yeah. About that. :lol Everything up there he is now the polar opposite of. Course, he still talks a big game sometimes (being male and southern and all), but I could no more see him raising a hand to a child than he would kick a puppy. I suppose some of it is that he trusts my research, and knows I read everything I could gets my hands on while I was pregnant. *shrug*

I wouldn't fret too much. You may find he changes with time and a baby, but if not, just stock your own toolbox so you can help show him the better way.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

True. That's how it was for me as a child. :yes Although my parents spanked for everything ... even obvious accidents because I shouldn't have been clumsy. :-/ I wonder if the sting wearing off is correlated to the frequency of spankings. If you are getting spanked multiple times per day every day, that might be different from being spanked occasionally over specific things.

But from my observations, it does seem to work pretty well on many kids. Although my belief is that just because it might work doesn't mean it is right.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

I definitely believe the first question that needs to be asked is "what are the goals of parenting?" Once you know where you're going it becomes much easier to find an effective path to get there. Spanking would not "work" for anything we are aiming for in our parenting.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

The ladies had so many wise words to share on this question. For me, I want to parent from a place of love, mercy, and authenticity. I want to be able to know that no matter what is happening between my child and me, the bond of love is absolute and unquestionable. So, anything that serves to break down that bond is not something that will work for my parenting goals. In that line of thinking, I steer away from not just spanking, but other forms of punishment as well. When I realized as an adult how unconditionally and infinitely I am loved by God and that even in the midst of my sin, I can turn to Him and He is right there to take me in His arms and forgive me, this is what I wanted my son to grow to learn about God as a child (instead of having to go through years and years of baggage, therapy, many many wrong choices to discover). As a side note, boundaries can still be taught without the use of spanking or other forms of punishment. I think a lot of parents think parents who don't spank do not teach their children boundaries or appropriate behaviors. Perhaps you could delve a bit on this with your hubby to see if he is concerned that not spanking would be the same as being permissive?

Re: Spanking "works"
 

This.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Excellent thread. Subbing.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

:spit:haha That may be the best answer for spanking I have ever heard. I am going to use that.
You're right, you cannot change anything. That is God's job. But you can fill your tool box now and you can pray for him. You can also make it clear that spanking is never okay and if he wants to spank, you will come between him and the child so that you are the one getting hit. After all if hitting a kid is okay, surely hitting an adult is fine.:shifty Though, I would wait until there is a baby before I threw that out there.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

All of the above for me. I just started lying.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

DH and I have been going round and round on this one. He is fine with not spanking as long as whatever we are doing for discipline is "working." But he says things like, "Even if C is a really easy-going kid and something works for him, we might have a kid at some point that nothing else "works" for."

I have tried comparing it to CIO (which he is adamantly against), saying yeah, sometimes CIO gets babies to sleep better, but that doesn't make it right. The ends don't justify the means - same for spanking. I am just trying to give him other tools right now so that he never gets to the point where he feels like he "has to" spank.

As for talking with others about it, I really haven't brought it up with anyone because I feel like I get the whole "Oh, she's a first time mom, she'll come around" attitude a lot.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

Yep - especially the lying :yes

FWIW, I also have a good relationship with my parents as an adult. They also respect the fact that my kids are MY kids and that I've chosen not to spank them :shrug3 My dad doesn't understand why on earth we would choose this, but he doesn't interfere and I don't need him to understand why, I just need him to leave me alone and not bug me about it so we're good.

My mom's totally supportive of us not spanking. She was raised in an abusive household and when I shared with her Dr. Sears' list of people who should never spank... yeah... she agreed that she probably should never have gone down that path. I have anger issues (takes a lot to make me mad, but if I'm really angry, I'd be afraid I'd hit them and never stop) so I'm definitely on Dr. Sears' "should not spank" list also.

But see... my parents didn't JUST spank :no They also taught me things in positive ways between spankings. I appreciate that they cared about me enough to raise me in a way that they thought was best. I appreciate that they loved me enough to set firm boundaries. I wish they'd been able to do those things without spanking, but they didn't know any differently.

Simply put: I want better for my children. I've never hit them - yelling is what I struggle with since hitting was never an option I let myself have in the first place - but I struggle with yelling almost daily. I'm getting better, but it's hard.

So I don't see myself as a victim or anything like that. Someone came on Dare to Disciple a while back and said he was so sad to read adult children from good Christian homes who had victim complexes and yadda yadda. Um... clearly that fellow doesn't know me at all if that's what he thinks! I have great respect for my parents and love for them and a good relationship with them, but none of those things would make it okay for me to spank my children - HIT them.

They are tiny compared to me. Nothing would make me HITTING my CHILDREN be an okay thing. No matter how "okay" I turned out. No matter how good my relationship with my parents is. No matter that my parents mitigated the negative effects of spanking quite a lot by teaching me constantly in other ways. I know better than that and it's on ME to do better for my kids.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

The thought behind that is that nothing else with work. Really? So have you really tried everything you can and actually used other tools, or are you just tired of GOYBing?

My dad said some kids 'need' it.
"Um, you think some kids want and need and deserve to be hit?"

No, it's a basic human right to not be hit, to live in peace, not in fear.

People don't spank people who are bigger than themselves. They only spank people smaller or who are so dominated by fear they don't realize they could defend themselves or are incapable. What does that say about people who spank? Logically, spanking does not make sense.

My counselor said "Kids fear the emotion they feel and avoid the feeling not necessarily the undesired behaviour."

Re: Spanking "works"
 

subbing.....

Re: Spanking "works"
 

There are so many great books out there but the first one I ever read was "Kids are worth it!" by Barbara Coloroso

It made it all make sense for me. It offered me tools that I used from day one. It also talks about the different parenting styles and how you were parented.

It's the reason I eventually found gcm :heart

Re: Spanking "works"
 

This is a great thread. Subbing so I can follow along.

Re: Spanking "works"
 

DWC and I were both spanked, and we were both on team spanking. Then I started reading and researching and looking into my past and was uncomfortable with spanking. Then I was at my parents house with the whole family and my dad told my nephew not to hit the fire pit thing with a stick. The nephew kept doing it and when my dad saw it he forcibly took the stick away and I felt fear. I'm 25 and I was afraid of my dad's anger. So I talked through those feelings with DWC and started pulling out all these issues that spanking has caused. He doesn't have the same negative reaction to spanking as I (turns out he was spanked as an older kid even into teenage years and only a handful of times). So I told him I'm fine with spanking as long as it would also be appropriate to slap the child in the face. Hitting is hitting, it doesn't really matter where. He agreed with that, so that's our plan. We will hit someone when the offense would merit a hit.
As for it working, what other people have said. Lots of things "work" to produce desirable behavior. You know what will get a baby to stop crying? Never touch him. That'll work really fast.