Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I have a friend that I have known for almost 14 yrs. She has four children like me and they are beautiful kids! Well, I always knew we did some things different in the discipline area and way we care for our kids, but since we have other things in common (no vax, eat organic/healthy, etc) I kindof overlooked the differences. Well, I am just sick to death and heartbroken over what I saw take place last night at her house.

I go over to their house to get some herbal remedies for my baby who is sick, well why I am there she takes her 2 week old baby girl and places her on a bed in a back room and proceeds to shut the door. The baby of course did not like be left alone and started to cry. She was not crying hard at first, but soon began to get really upset. I was shocked when I watched as my friend just ignored the baby's crying and kept on talking to me like nothing was happening. She was chatting with her DH and me and playing with my 2 yr old. He also knew the baby was crying and just kept ignoring her too. After about 15 minutes of this little newborn screaming her head off, I mentioned to my friend that maybe the baby needed something and I encouraged her to go take care of the baby. Well, she told me that she was "fine" and just mad because she did not like not getting her way and being held when she wants. I was like ? I never knew that a newborn could supposidly manipulate the parents..but according to my DF they can and must be taught.. UGH! So anyways, the screaming became utter hysterics and the baby was doing that cough/gasp crying that comes from sheer terror and exhaustion. I was so upset at this and wanted to run get the baby but I had my hands full with my sick toddler who was hooked up to a heart/oxygen monitor and did not want to expose their baby to any germs I had on me. By this point the baby had been screaming hysterically for 30 minutes at least. I had reached my breaking point and told her that "your baby really needs to you hold her now!", she again said in a laughy sing song voice that "the baby loves to be held but that she has to learn paitence and that crying is good for her." I just stood there and stared at her in disbelief. I had heard her let her kids CIO before but they were a bit older and she always acted like she was rushing to get to them...I do not go to her house often so I had no idea until last night exactly how she does this nor how often. Apparantly her DH and her think this is "discipline" and something about Ezzo and To train up a child and stuff?? Anyways... she did not do anything to that baby while I was there except go look in on her once, she even said that she probably was wanting to nurse, but would have to wait for mommy to get time...and then was so proud of herself and said "God blessed her baby with sleep" when the baby finally screamed herself into pure exhausted sleep! I just was so sick I had to bite my tounge not to say what I was thinking! I ended up taking my son home quickly after that and just do not think I can go over there anymore and may decide to end the friendship. I am really upset over this! I do not want my children exposed to that stuff at all. I have never let a baby CIO at any age and never would, I just don't know how any mother can???!! I hate this Ezzo person/train up a child person for whatever junk they are pushing into these moms heads that makes them think it is "good" to do this to a baby! UGH UGH!!!

Oh and one other thing that happened that really annoyed me was they they were making some herbal drinks to help boost my son's immune system cause he has his 7th pneumonia that stems from a weak lung from a previous removed birth defect (he only has a half lung now on his left side). Well they offered him this cup of a bitter herbal drink and he did not want it because it tasted so bad. The DH of my friend looks over at me and tells me " if that were my child I would spank them even if it took 45 times and then they would drink it!" He said this very calmly and matter of fact...I know they spank their kids.. another Ezzo or something thing they have tried to "teach" me about , but they are very quiet people so I figured they only spanked for real disobediance...not something like not wanting to eat or drink something they did not like??!! That made no sense to me and seems awful cruel!! I just looked at him and said "oh dear" and shook my head in shame...I think he got the point. I even told them that we do not hit children in our home, and I have found that even adults refuse food that taste bad.. should we hit them too?

I just kissed my sweet baby's head and told him he did not have to drink something he did not want and I would never hit him for it...

Anyways...I know this is long but I needed to vent to you mamas... I am seriously thinking of dropping this friend because I cannot be around this type of parenting. This crosses the line for me.



**I did cross post this in another mothering forum, but wanted to post it here to get more input and advice from a christian perspective too. Hope that is ok!! :0)
Gosh I feel so bad for their children, especially for the newborn...

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I'm so sorry. :cry It looks like your friend is following Pearl's teachings. Pearl does teach parents to be very calm and quiet (never raising their voices), yet they require first time obedience with a happy heart and they are heartless in their methods of obtaining this. :cry They also do tend to be very AP and natural. You can find more info at my website as well as arguements against it. You may want to think twice before you seek out more information about what Pearl teaches, it is very upseting. :wow Sometimes it is best not to know too much. :bheart

Are her children very polite, calm and happy all the time? Do they respond to her every request with something to the effect of, "Okay Mommie." and obey imediately? If so, I am pretty sure that they are Pearl followers. :( And Pearl does teach them to start at birth. :sick

I'm so sorry. I know that this is very hard for you. :hug

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:( I'm sick just reading your post. I would end the friendship. I wouldn't even bother explaining myself. Unless you felt like there was a way to be a "witness" to her of GBD, but I would guess that she's pretty much set in her ways and probably not open to suggestion, iykwim. I'm sure the Lord has another way to provide you with the nutritional help you need without having to expose you or your children to that.

I'm so sorry!

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry

I am so sorry you had to go through all of that. How heart-wrenching. :bheart

You are in a safe place now where mamas do not put their children through that kind of torture.

:hug :hug :hug

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry Oh its just terrible. I am so sorry your friends, for all the poor children, all the unloved babies everywhere. That's what made me so upset reading your post..that its such a familiar, common story...Its so sick the things that are done to kids in the name of love... :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry I can't imagine letting my sweet little baby girl CIO. She's the sweetest thing in the world - not a manipulative little being. :mad :mad That makes me so sad. Poor baby.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry

It is hard to believe that Christians can do this to a baby. I am so sad. I pray the Holy Spirit will make them very uncomfortable with these ideas until they realize they aren't compatible with Christianity.

:pray

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

How horrible for you and your little one to see, and for their poor children. :cry I think what the others suggested may be best. You can try to email her the ezzo info link if nothing else, but it sounds like they have their minds made up.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry :eek :pray :bheart

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

That poor little baby. :bheart :cry

:pray For those little ones.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

http://pages.prodigy.net/rogerlori1/...ons/cry001.gif :pray :bheart

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

"Are her children very polite, calm and happy all the time? Do they respond to her every request with something to the effect of, "Okay Mommie." and obey imediately? If so, I am pretty sure that they are Pearl followers. And Pearl does teach them to start at birth."


I would not say they are "happy"....all the time....it is weird, but her kids just are so quiet...they do smile and all...but comparing them to my children...they are TOO quiet...I just do not see them laughing and squealing and making noise like my kids do... they play super quietly and although they are polite (my kids are too and I have not hit them) and calm...it is a weird calm....it felt so artifical and forced to me... apparently it IS according to your Pearl info... now I know what is going on...it explains the strange behavior of her kids. SO SAD!!!!!!!

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

That is horrible and sickening :sick :cry! It definately sounds like Pearl :sick

I would end the friendship. And I would say I cannot continue being around an atmosphere of abuse. That I am terribly concerned for their family and that I will be praying for them. But I cannot be around that.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

How incredibly heart-breaking...:(

I think I would have to end the friendship too. I couldn't stand to be around that type of abuse. Poor babies...:sick :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Right. I was not clear. Happy is not the right word. Content is more like it. They are probably not allowed to be boisterous. Yet they are probably expected to smile all the time. :sick
Yes. And I can only imagine how hard it would be to give up this friendship after 14 years. :( Yet, keeping a friendship like that would be even harder. :sa

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I honestly don't know how you endured that for so long :cry :hug I'd have had to leave.

I could not be around that type of abusive treatment of children and I couldn't let my children experience/witness it. I would most assuredly not tolerate someone telling me they would spank my child if he were theirs.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

that is so sad :hug I wouldnt have been able to tolerate it. I usually leave the room in tears if someone is talking about cio :rolleyes :lol I wouldnt be able to be friends with her either... so very very sad :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:mad :madI

deleted. I'm too mad.

:mad :mad

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I don't like Ezzo - but he would not advocate that. Seriously. I used Ezzo with my first and probably hate him as much as any of you for the havoc he gave us with nursing ... but he would not have condoned that particular episode. That is disturbing and sad. Also, Pearls don't mention ANYTHING about training 2 week old babies in any fashion.

Some people take certain books/philosophies way too far and that is always sad. :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Spyder, the people I know who did Prep for Parenting did things like that. Fathers were known to sit on their wives to keep them from going to their day old babies. It could very definately be from Ezzo's teachings. He says that babies need to learn from day one that they are not the center of the universe :( If you just read "Babywise" you didn't get the big picture of what he teaches :(

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I read all of the Babywise books - the green one and blue one. They are the only ones dealing with infants, correct? The other books are for toddlers and older kids? I never did read those and swore I wouldn't because I cannot stand Ezzo. Now I am tempted to read so I can be informed about these authors.

I never got the idea that letting a 2 week old CIO for no reason was supported ... I think the started talking about CIO around 8 weeks? Maybe I need a refresher.

ETA: Okay, so they leaders of Prep for Parenting endorse things like this ... okay - that is a good case of extreme nutcases taking things to far, then. As far as Ezzo's actual book - I never recall seeing anything so pathetic, and I do believe the entire book is pretty sad!

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

That is really heartbreaking! :bheart I think that in your situation, I'd be tempted to try and share some parenting advice with her. If she takes it the wrong way then you lose nothing since the other alternative is ending the friendship anyways. If there is even a SMALL chance you could plant a seed in her heart in the hopes that she might someday remember it and treat her children as the gifts they really are, then there is nothing to lose! As far as going to her house goes, I think it is wise to stay away so as not to expose your children to that kind of environment.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Maybe not, but they don't say when to start. Here are a few small quotes from TTUAC:
And in talking about a screaming 7 month old:
As far as I can see, these quotes can easily be interpreted as meaning that a 2 week old needs to be trained. :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Hmmm, maybe. I know I read both TTUAC AND Ezzo before my ds was born and somehow the Ezzo stuff sunk in, mostly about breastfeeding. But it's just not normal or human to let a little baby cry if you can HELP IT! Sometimes you have to put a baby down to do something, go to the bathroom, stir a pot of food, whatever. But the mom in the OP was taking it waaay too far and that is sad. :(

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Prep For Parenting is the church curriculum that was created by Gary and Anne Marie Ezzo. They definately advocate cio from birth. Babywise is the secular book they put out that has a lot of stuff from the curriculum removed from it for a more mainstream audience.

And Pearl talks in "No Greater Joy" when he's praising a woman spanking her 3mo about how wonderful it is and how he now hopes that people will see they can start from birth and not wait so long.

Above both of those examples is the culture that has developed among families who practice these methods who offer counsel and encouragement for situations that involve specifics the authors may not specifically use but are supportable by their ideas :( Very sad :(

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Even my grandparents, who were spankers, told me of an incident they saw years ago where a couple spanked their few-months-old baby and my grandparents thought it was horribly abusive! How can anyone condone that?!! :banghead

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :sick :bheart Why do the caregivers of these little ones refuse to care for them? :cry :cry :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:madArghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ok what I don't get is that ANY pediatrician or Dr or anyone in the medical profession will flat out TELL you that spanking an infant is child abuse!!!!! Why do people drop common sense to fallow these teachings?

Ok , Im terribly mad now.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

OH MY!!! That situation is beyond sad.. :cry :pray

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:hug

Oh Lord, please, please intervene and break down the walls that these parents have built around their hearts with false teaching about what makes a good Christian and what kind of God you are. Lord, please reveal to them that Grace is an Action, not just a concept and teach them how to Care and Love for their children as you do with us. Lord, I thank you that these little children are on your Heart as much as they are on ours and Thank You so much that we look forward to a Kingdom free of the pain and suffering of our personal sin and the sins of others which we endure. Amen.

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

Spyder and Crystal,

You are both right. Ezzo talks out of both sides of his mouth, giving lip service to normality at various points, while the underlying, more rigorous message is also there to be found if you want it, that control can't start too early, that this scheduling business is a form of discipline that will reap a harvest of righteousness, etc. Prep and Babywise cover the same territory although Prep, with it's biblical overtones, presses the case harder. Parents in a church group that becomes an Ezzo sub-culture may read and reinforce the "control" messages, where parents who are reading Babywise in a more normal "interpretive community" may find simply a recipe they feel free to adapt in the direction of normality.

Earlier editions were more blatant with the rigorousness and with associating the method with producing godly character. These parents may be using an earlier edition. Or they may be in a subculture that has intensified the message, or they may have brought their own bias to the material. :cry

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:pray for this sweet precious baby and her comfort.

Yea know, sometimes we have to let people go in our lives if te cause us too much pain and sorrow. Life is short. :hug

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

I am sick to my stomach!! i mean it, literally sick to my stomach! :sick fourteen years is along time to be friends with someone and i think that maybe as was suggested before that you give her more information on parenting and why your stance is as it is.they have been using this method for a long time now so they probably won't listen but you don't have anything to lose in offering up the information and you opinion as you will probably be ending the relationship with them anyway.i would not be able to stay friends with them at this point.I pray that God gives you the words to say that will change their hearts.God bless. :pray :hug

Re: Oh Mamas!! I am so sad and sick to my stomach!!!
 

:wow :wow :wow :wow :wow :wow :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :cry :bheart :bheart :bheart :bheart :bheart :bheart :hissyfit :hissyfit :hissyfit :hissyfit :hissyfit :hissyfit