Nancy Campbell of Above Rubies

[TatoMama]

I am trying to explain the yuck factor I have with Nancy Campbell of Above Rubies. I know I have read bits and pieces which have lead to my opinion on them, but I haven't kept them as I don't want to spend my time destroying ministries. But now people are asking me so I want to come up with answers for them. Please share facts about them and where they are found. All I have is this:
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia

[Hermana Linda]

Most of what I have heard was told to me in confidence.

[Kiara.I]

I haven't bothered looking into the yuck factor as I disagree with some of the theological positions the ministry takes. That takes care of it for me!

[Dtswife]

I feel it's a little too "cult of domesticity" focused and makes an idol out of motherhood. That said, I do know several women to whom it has ministered and empowered greatly, mostly by reassuring them that being a SAHM and wanting lots of babies is good and they're not lazy weirdos.

So...... mixed bag.

[Cherish]

I don't know if the people who discussed her in the past (or their posts) are still on the board, but you could try a search of "above rubies" on this forum. I recall some conversations and some video links (I had those from several sources, out on the wider net) that were unbelievable. An Australian news channel did a story about them once, and it was awful, her own words.

[rosesnsnails]

Here's an old thread I found:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/archive/index.php/t-412059.html


Following links are broken:

This is a real zinger because apparently women are responsible for how men act. http:// www .aboverubies .org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=236:feminine-power-pt-1-no-150&catid=105:womens-devotional-archive&Itemid=400038

From the following article, It is interesting that today many women are so educated beyond their intelligence that they no longer understand the way God created them

http :// aboverubies .org/index.php/2013-11-12-17-55-51/english-language/motherhood/1077-motherhood-fully-female

[Kiara.I]

It is interesting that today many women are so educated beyond their intelligence that they no longer understand the way God created them

:yuck:yuck:yuck
Well gosh darn, this pore li'l girl done got too much edumacation for my teeny tiny little intelligence to handle. :rolleyes

Leaving aside the impossibility of educating someone "beyond their intelligence"... (How? Really. HOW???)

I got so over-educated that I read the Bible FOR MYSELF!!! And I saw some women doing some pretty interesting things! Like...being the worship leader for all Israel (a temporary position, but still!) Or being the Judge for Israel! Or saving the whole nation by being a Queen. Or being a prophetess. Or being the first to proclaim the Christ-nature of Jesus. Or funding the church out of their own money. Or pastoring churches. Or planting churches.

I guess those poor ladies must have been educated beyond their intelligences too. :rolleyes

[saturnfire16]

Her theological stance on several issue is enough to make me run far and fast, but to top it off I also know someone who went to one of her conferences and Nancy told her to spank her son with a wooden spoon.

[Dtswife]

Just read the linked thread. Ick.

[deena]

:yuck:yuck:yuck
Well gosh darn, this pore li'l girl done got too much edumacation for my teeny tiny little intelligence to handle. :rolleyes

:spit

[Soliloquy]

If you just peruse her magazine it's mostly positive, encouraging stories for moms. i have even seen positive discipline techniques described. (I've also seen references to "first time obedience" so it's mixed.)

It's the behind-the-scenes things that disturb me. And the connection with Vision Forum--although I'm not remembering how the two are/were connected.

She also believes that contraception, including NFP/FAM is sinful.

I did read an article in one of her magazines about not making motherhood an idol. Whether it's conceiving at all or having many children--to not place that desire ahead of God.

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

Plus treating her adopted kids like servants...isn't AR largely responsible for at least one African country shutting down foreign adoptions?

[rosesnsnails]

Liberia? :think

[BarefootBetsy]

Yes, I believe they were responsible for that. I think it was Ethiopia :think but could be misremembering :blush

I've had several friends end up getting sucked into the Vision Forum stuff via AR because they had large families and felt supported through AR the way mainstream Christianity doesn't support them much, if at all.

Mainstream Christianity seems to like to separate families, which is difficult if you're AP (or even just breastfeeding) at all and have many small children, so my friends would go to the AR conferences and be supported and encouraged and they could bring their nursing babies/toddlers and weren't given the stinkeye for it... So then they continued down the path until many became full-blown "it's a sin for daughters to go to college" and "multi-generational faithfulness" and "200 year (patriarchal) visions." :(

[HadassahSukkot]

Nancy Campbell’s occasional magazine for moms, Above Rubies. Nancy is a fierce promoter of anti-feminism.... Her website includes multiple articles by women who felt guilt and regret over “the biggest mistake” of their life. ...a tubal ligation. Nancy also sells a book, A Change of Heart, encouraging couples to have surgeries to reverse both vasectomies and tubal ligations.
http ://homeschoolers anonymous.wordpress .com/2013/07/11/his-quiver-full-of-them-jeri-loflands-thoughts/


A few of the most popular of these suppliers include:
Vision Forum
Grace & Truth Books
Rod & Staff
American Vision
Quiverfull ideals are also promoted through magazines which are popular among homeschoolers including:
Above Rubies
Wisdom’s Gate Publications: Home School Digest / Encouraging Word
SALT Magazine
Family Reformation Magazine
There are also several websites/ministries which are led by teens who are promoting the Quiverfull family values to Christian youth:
The Rebelution
Visionary Daughters
Ladies Against Feminism
http ://homeschooler sanonymous.wordpress .com/2013/03/20/crosspost-what-is-quiverfull/

[Dtswife]

This is so sad for me.

If it wasn't for A Change Of Heart, I would only have 2 siblings instead of 5 and Orr lives would be so bland. I know for a fact that Above rubies was the *ONLY* encouragement Mom had for YEARS at a time. I went to an AR conference with her when I was 9 to help with my baby sister and it was so fun because there were so many people like us ; big families, homeschool, all that (no idea what she spoke on. I was too busy feeling oh so very grown up).

As an adult, I haven't felt the need to read her stuff or anything, but it was nice to know it was there if I needed it.

Are ANY of the homeschool, lots of kids, follow Jesus people NOT bonkers?

[saturnfire16]

Are ANY of the homeschool, lots of kids, follow Jesus people NOT bonkers?

There are lots of homeschooling, big families here. :yes Most just don't make those things the center of their theology. :shrug3

[Dtswife]

Sorry, I know. I should have been specific. Books and ministries, I should have said.

[saturnfire16]

Sorry, I know. I should have been specific. Books and ministries, I should have said.

Oh, I see what you're saying now. :doh

I was thinking that since you're somewhat new to the board, maybe you just didn't realize how many large, homeschooling families are here. :hug

They (we? I'm not sure if 4 kids qualifies as "large" :giggle) just need to start more ministries and write more books, I guess! :yes

[Dtswife]

Ironically, I was looking for an AR lite when I joined this board.

[BarefootBetsy]

Sorry, I know. I should have been specific. Books and ministries, I should have said.

Thatmom has a lot of great resources and she critiques the more "out there" homeschooling/large family/Christian groups too (ETA: I'm not finding anything by her about Above Rubies, but she definitely has a lot about VF, Gothard, and their ilk).

http://www.thatmom.com/

I'm not sure if she has a large family herself (I don't remember... I should know this :blush), but she's supportive of large families, from what I understand :tu

[Soliloquy]

This is so sad for me.

If it wasn't for A Change Of Heart, I would only have 2 siblings instead of 5 and Orr lives would be so bland. I know for a fact that Above rubies was the *ONLY* encouragement Mom had for YEARS at a time. I went to an AR conference with her when I was 9 to help with my baby sister and it was so fun because there were so many people like us ; big families, homeschool, all that (no idea what she spoke on. I was too busy feeling oh so very grown up).

As an adult, I haven't felt the need to read her stuff or anything, but it was nice to know it was there if I needed it.

Are ANY of the homeschool, lots of kids, follow Jesus people NOT bonkers?

I do know what you mean. I used to get AR in the mail for awhile. I saw a very few things in there that made me :think :no but, for the most part, all of the articles were just encouraging to mothers. What you do matters. The little day-in and day-out things that can seem like drudgery do matter. Our culture may not value mothering, people may ask you, "What do you DO all day? Aren't you bored? Stifled?" but in those articles I was reminded that what I'm doing is worthwhile.

I decided to read my Bible and encourage other moms instead of reading AR (after I found about about the ick factor).

[Hannah Elise]

Thatmom has a lot of great resources and she critiques the more "out there" homeschooling/large family/Christian groups too (ETA: I'm not finding anything by her about Above Rubies, but she definitely has a lot about VF, Gothard, and their ilk).

http://www.thatmom.com/

I'm not sure if she has a large family herself (I don't remember... I should know this :blush), but she's supportive of large families, from what I understand :tu

I was going to suggest thatmom.com, too, but you beat me to it. ;)

[HadassahSukkot]

Thatmom has a lot of great resources and she critiques the more "out there" homeschooling/large family/Christian groups too (ETA: I'm not finding anything by her about Above Rubies, but she definitely has a lot about VF, Gothard, and their ilk).

Karen Campbell = Thatmom

Do not trust her. She was knee deep in all of that stuff and still is in it. She's waded out a little, but is very in it. I've had run ins and it is not pretty.:no She is quite unkind for anyone who doesn't see it exactly her way, or is a second-generation-adult coming out of the abuse she's been recently discussing.

Julie Ann at Spiritual Sounding Board (http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/)is a lot more helpful.:yes

[Hannah Elise]

Karen Campbell = Thatmom

Do not trust her. She was knee deep in all of that stuff and still is in it. She's waded out a little, but is very in it. I've had run ins and it is not pretty.:no She is quite unkind for anyone who doesn't see it exactly her way, or is a second-generation-adult coming out of the abuse she's been recently discussing.

Julie Ann at Spiritual Sounding Board (http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/)is a lot more helpful.:yes

Oh. Hm. Anything I've read on her blog struck me as having distanced herself from the patriarchy movement. Sh evens recommends several GBD books in her resources. *headscratch* I read her book Relationship Homeschooling, and while she does still very much give off a "homeschooling is the best way to raise your kids, " vibe that kinda made me roll my eyes a couple of times (I believe it's the best, too, but I also believe every child's situation is unique, and every child has different needs... that's why we are utilizing the school district for therapies for my son right now).

Then again, we also believe in worshipping together as a family, and don't utilize nursery (other than their changing table, :giggle) or junior church, either, so... *shrug* I personally have found her to be very encouraging.

[Hermana Linda]

Is her lastname a coincidence, or are they related? :question

[HadassahSukkot]

Is her lastname a coincidence, or are they related? :question
Not sure to be honest.:think

However, having had some extended conversations with her via a friend's FB wall, yeah, she is not distanced and she is seeking to silence several of us who are SGA (http://geftakysassembly.com/Reflections/SecondGenerationAdults.htm)'s. She doesn't like what we have to say for the most part, co-opts what she does and blogs about it like it's her own idea. :dohTo hear her talk on the blog, she's against patriarchy and the movements and QF etc. But when she talks privately, she speaks the exact same things and argues for it all. :( She's also been rude in comments on some of our blogs, on Spiritual Sounding Board, or when challenged by Julie Ann or any of us.

On FB, if you disagree and she decides she doesn't like being "ganged up on", she deletes it all, as if it never happened. :scratch

[Hermana Linda]

Removing offensive posts from ones wall is pretty standard behavior for many, that doesn't bother me.

Sent from my mobile device by Tapatalk

[BarefootBetsy]

As far as I understand, they aren't related (Campbell is a pretty common last name), and Karen Campbell, as opposed to Nancy Campbell (of Above Rubies), speaks up quite a bit against the groups that Nancy Campbell (Above Rubies) is affiliated with.

I agree that Spiritual Sounding Board is another good resource :yes

[TenderLovingWillow]

It's so sad to see the adoption stuff. :(

I know one family who adopted twin boys from Sierra Leone (sp?) and both boys have RAD. They have struggled to find good resources-and while I don't know the ins and outs of it, one boy was placed with their parents for the safety of all the other kids.

I don't know details-but it's made me think long and hard about adopting-which is something I always thought I would do.

My MIL wants to get me a subscription to AR, and I have always said no thanks-but they talk about home birthing, gardening and babywearing which are my interests and it's hard to explain to her why I want nothing to do with it.

[HadassahSukkot]

Removing offensive posts from ones wall is pretty standard behavior for many, that doesn't bother me.

Sent from my mobile device by Tapatalk
Not her wall. A mutual friend. then she says it never happened and "Look, those kids are rude to me!:( I don't know why they are so mad and accusing me of saying things that aren't there! :scratch :snooty" :hunh :doh

It's mental whiplash. She leaves the least offensive things up, then points people to that wall and accuses the facilitator of the conversation. She's now said she's doing research on all of us that comment in the same threads as her and will have a post up "shortly" about how evil and dishonest we are. :-/

[Codi]

Not her wall. A mutual friend. then she says it never happened and "Look, those kids are rude to me!:( I don't know why they are so mad and accusing me of saying things that aren't there! :scratch :snooty" :hunh :doh

It's mental whiplash. She leaves the least offensive things up, then points people to that wall and accuses the facilitator of the conversation. She's now said she's doing research on all of us that comment in the same threads as her and will have a post up "shortly" about how evil and dishonest we are. :-/

This is from *Karen* the author of Relationship Homeschooling?

[Hermana Linda]

Wow. That does seem very strange. :scratch I don't like to form opinions based on one side of the story. :O I am also a bit concerned about the turn of this conversation, especially as it is in a public forum. :think

[Hannah Elise]

Hm. Well. I dunno. I have never found her bloc to be anything but encouraging. I don't agree with any of the blotters that I read 100%, but I still find then all to be beneficial enough that I read them. I chew the meat and spit out the bones. Just my take. Having never encountered anything personally that would turn me off from reading her more than any of thebothers I follow... I wasn't concerned about recommending her blog. I'mm sorry if that offended someone. :shrug3

[Heather R]

Are ANY of the homeschool, lots of kids, follow Jesus people NOT bonkers?

I guess 4 is not a ton of kids, but I really like the Clarkson's books and ministry.

[MaybeGracie]

I second (third? fourth?) the recommendations for Karen Campbell (ThatMom) and for the Clarksons. They're both very encouraging and similar in their relationship-focused approach to parenting. :tu

[Cherish]

I think it's totally legit if someone recommends a resource for someone else to come along and put up a caution based on their first hand knowledge/encounters. Far too often with QF/Patriarchy folks, it's soooo easy to get sucked back in, or to make 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I think it's a helpful thing to caution folks who may be vulnerable or if there might be a mixed message. I totally appreciate the warning. :)

[HadassahSukkot]

This is from *Karen* the author of Relationship Homeschooling?
Yes. of "That Mom" blog. :yes3

I think it's totally legit if someone recommends a resource for someone else to come along and put up a caution based on their first hand knowledge/encounters. Far too often with QF/Patriarchy folks, it's soooo easy to get sucked back in, or to make 2 steps forward, 1 step back. I think it's a helpful thing to caution folks who may be vulnerable or if there might be a mixed message. I totally appreciate the warning. :)
:yes3

[Stefanierose88]

My husband and I don't use birth control, we could be called "quiverfull" although no labels are needed. I always liked the Above Rubies magazines, I don't know much about the ministry beyond the magazines. I like reading about how other Moms have gone down the road we are traveling. My husband and I also believe in having him as the "head" of our home and in me staying home.

I'm confused about the discussion about adoption and AR, what happened? I might have missed a link or something, but I never heard anything negative about their adopted children before. I know they do have adopted children who now have their own children, and I think at least one of her daughters has an adopted child too.

I never agree with everything any ministry says but I never saw anything horribly offensive to me at least. Are the theology issues being mentioned related to women or something else?

[TenderLovingWillow]

My husband and I don't use birth control, we could be called "quiverfull" although no labels are needed. I always liked the Above Rubies magazines, I don't know much about the ministry beyond the magazines. I like reading about how other Moms have gone down the road we are traveling. My husband and I also believe in having him as the "head" of our home and in me staying home.

I'm confused about the discussion about adoption and AR, what happened? I might have missed a link or something, but I never heard anything negative about their adopted children before. I know they do have adopted children who now have their own children, and I think at least one of her daughters has an adopted child too.

I never agree with everything any ministry says but I never saw anything horribly offensive to me at least. Are the theology issues being mentioned related to women or something else?

Read the link in the OP. :yes

[Hannah Elise]

I'm confused about the discussion about adoption and AR, what happened? I might have missed a link or something, but I never heard anything negative about their adopted children before. I know they do have adopted children who now have their own children, and I think at least one of her daughters has an adopted child too.

I never agree with everything any ministry says but I never saw anything horribly offensive to me at least. Are the theology issues being mentioned related to women or something else?

There was quite a bit detailed in a recentbook about corruption ininternational adoption, but I can't recall the title. I mostly skimmed the portions regarding their adoptions, though, because it was a bit heart-sickening.

[domesticzookeeper]

This article discusses the adoption issues directly: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/04/christian-evangelical-adoption-liberia

Ultimately, all but 3 of the Campbells' and Allisons' 10 adoptions ran into serious problems. They were purged for a time from Campbell's website, prompting readers to gossip about the family's "disappearing children." In a 2009 video, Serene claimed that the missing adoptees were off at school. Campbell's biography was amended to say she had adopted "some" Liberian children.

[Katigre]

There was quite a bit detailed in a recentbook about corruption ininternational adoption, but I can't recall the title. I mostly skimmed the portions regarding their adoptions, though, because it was a bit heart-sickening.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/1586489429?pc_redir=1404025356&robot_redir=1

---------- Post added at 12:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 PM ----------

http://www.christianalliancefororphans.org/childcatchers/

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 PM ----------

Heres a link to a video interview with Nancy Campbell:

http://au.tv.yahoo.com/sunday-night/video/-/watch/22760463/

[Barefoot Bookworm]

I used to love Nancy Campbell and Above Rubies. I was introduced to The Power Of Motherhood when I had an 11 month old and a 1 month old baby. She spoke of motherhood as being a joy and a blessing which is not where most people were coming from so I was easily sucked into it. I've read most of what Nancy Campbell has put out and while I think some of her ideas are lovely there are many harmful ones in there too. I mean, you can even google my name and find that I won a free apron from her and spoke to her on the phone in 2012!

Learning more about her adoption issues and what happened to those Liberian children, I can no longer support Above Rubies nor will I purchase anything new that she puts out. So while there was a point in my life that I was ministered by her, I can see the corrupt nature more clearly now and would recommend that people stay far away.

As for people with 4+ kids who homeschool and are wonderful, definitely look at the Clarksons! Sally Clarkson has a beautiful heart and so many good things to share.

[ArmsOfLove]

The Clarkson's book "Educating the Whole Hearted Child" is one of my favorite all time homeschooling/mothering books. :yes I really appreciate that he speaks out against the Bible teaching to spank children :yes He's a really amazing and humble man.

[CelticJourney]

Moderator Hat:

I think this thread has gone in several different directions in the last page or so. Let's see if we can turn this back to the purpose of the thread - which seemed to be Nancy Campbell.

On another note: We haven't been as active here lately so I will post a reminder that for the purpose of this forum, we discuss what punitive authors and teacher write or say as part of their teaching SPECIFICALLY so that we as individuals can go and reread or listen to (podcasts) them for ourselves to verify the assertions and the context. Being able to see it for ourselves, or show someone else directly, is vital for making sure we have our facts straight and we can make sure this very public forum is always the source for solid information and never a source for gossip in the Christian community at large. Please post with that standard in mind.

[momzilla76]

This is a very general statement and maybe not what the thread starter was looking for.
I am very uncomfortable with any Christian teacher or organization that makes those who do not agree 100% with their convictions as traitors to God's kingdom. While I ceased reading anything related to Above Rubies years ago because of their condemnation attitude I did recently go to their Facebook page, via a friends link, to see if they had changed. Sadly the "traitors to God's kingdom" came from a post they did last month. It wouldn't be hard to find if that is the kind of information you are looking for.

[Stefanierose88]

I will defiantly look into all of this further, thanks for the links:)