Baby(un)Wise

[irishslane]

(Disclaimer: I'm trying to fulfill my 10 posts quota as a newbie, so excuse me if this isn't the most profound/thought provoking thing ever.)

So, I've known about and read "around" the Ezzos and the Pearls for years and years. I had friends who Babywised their kids and I had friends who APed their kids and it was perfectly clear to me which was better in my mind (none of my BW friends were horrible-horrible, but still. Ick, and why bother to have a kid if you just ignore them most of the time.) Beyond that, I read blogs and articles about the books and felt like I had a handle on what was what.

Fast forward ten years to a few months ago. My husband was on the phone with his sister (we've only been married a year and are "about to issue" (Little Women, anyone?) our first baby. And since we live in Paris and all of our family is in the US, I've only actually met my SIL once. Anyway...) and she said, "Oh, you guys should read this book we use with our kids" (3 of them, the youngest 3mo). Husband was like, "yeah, ok. What is it?" He reports back to me, unknowingly: How to Become Babywise: The Gift of Infant Sleep.

I was like, "Uh, yeah no. We're not doing that and here's why: A-Z." Husband is one of the most brilliant people I have ever met and reads mounds and mounds of books and all over the place, but knows when he doesn't know something and prudently said, "I will totally defer to you on this. You know what you're talking about."

So, it was never an issue, but because sometimes I like to "hate read" and because I really didn't want my SIL to forever be like, "But it's soooo great. And it's all about......And we've done it with three kids...." (especially since I was researching and reading about all of this stuff when she was still in middle school. #havingchildrenlaterproblems), I decided I'd actually read the book, since I never had.

I went in fully expecting it to be bad, but it was worse than I thought. All of the things that people say that book "says" I had thought were extrapolations and implications of what they actually said. Which I had major problems with. But no--they ACTUALLY SAY that stuff. I was a bit shocked. Call me naive.

At the same time, it's so manipulative to the reader. The way they make claims which have no basis, but sort of sound like the kind of thing a parent might think is good. eg, "your child should not learn that she is the center of the world." Well, maybe, but this has nothing to do with her crying or eating or being a baby.

Whatever.

Anyway. End story/rant.

Anyone else struck by the simultaneous blatantly outrageous instructions AND the subtle manipulative rhetorical strategies of the Ezzos?

[cbmk4]

Yes, it is manipulative and his methods prey on parents who are eager to do everything right--i.e., those parents who may have an inflated sense of how much they are going to be able to control their children and the outcome of rearing them. Let's face it, having a child is such a huge life changing event. For many people, planning and seeking control in an otherwise new situation that feels out of control is a way that people instinctively try to lower their stress levels.

I just spoke to a new family the other day about the dangers of Babywise and the dangers of taking any parenting "guru's" word as gospel when that expert claims to present a formulaic approach to child rearing. Rather, I emphasized that they should get to be experts on their own baby and parent responsively. Sure, gather advice and consider what more experienced voices have to say, but never at the expense of ignoring a child's developmental needs or with the expectation that there is one perfect approach that applies to every child and every family.

Off topic, I am wondering if Babywise is stil even in print with all the bad press it has gotten.

[irishslane]

I know that Multnomah (the original publisher) stopped publishing it because of all the controversy. I believe that the Ezzos or whatever their little dynasty calls itself (Growing Kids God's Way? *rolls eyes*) self publishes it now..... this small fact actually put my husband off the book before I said anything. Hahahah.

[MudPies]

It is still being published and I know in the south it is still the num 1 recommended parenting book by churches and pediatricians. :(. It's one way to screen both- email and ask what parenting books they like.

[Bumblebee]

I have at least one mommy friend who raves about it..:(

[Findabhair]

They had it for sale in the book store at the Christian family camp we went to last year. One of the staff was pregnant and I witnessed a woman with 4 kids ask her if she'd read it yet and then strongly recommend it because it had worked so well on her kids. I didn't want to make a scene but I still wish I had said something, recommended an alternative book. The first time mom seemed so grateful for the suggestion. :(

[Dovenoir]

My Bradley birth group all fell for it and I felt terrible at our post baby meeting.

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[CelticJourney]

The fact that Ezzo's words sound so extreme is one of the reasons we do a lot of quoting when we discuss the details. I was on an Ezzo debate board long, long ago and it was nothing to have a poster come and say 'he NEVER said that', give them a page reference and have them return with ':jawdrop'. Some people read with what we call a 'mommy filter' - where your brain reads something and thinks 'that just can't be right' so it filters it to the point you don't even remember reading it.

The most convicting thing about Ezzo is his own words.

[mamacat]

I knew nothing about it years ago when pregnant with my 4th baby and had already EBF the first 3.A friend pregnant with her 1st baby raved about it and told me she planned to use it.I saw it in a consignment store and bought it and right away the flags went up because could not imaginehow one could build up a proper milk supply following the NB nursing protocol.My friend was later told that her 4 month old baby was terribly under the growth expectations and she would need to start supplemental formula feedings which the baby just guzzzled down,she was so hungry.Left the friend thinking she was just one who couldnt make enough milk :(

[Hermana Linda]

That just breaks my heart and makes me angry at the same time!

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[Caecelia]

I was another one who had read about the book, and decided it wasn't for me based on that, but then decided to actually read the copy a friend had loaned me. And yes, it's shocking the things he actually says in it and how it is in such stark contrast to...reality? This friend has nursed 4 babies who all 'self-weaned' by 10 months. She's a huge advocate for breastfeeding, but it's so sad to see how blinded she is by the misinformation in this book., and that she wasn't able to meet her bf goals with any of her kids. But yeah, I agree with PP that it's Ezzo and his own words that I take issue with the most because at least there's some hope that IF someone is going to read his book, they hopefully will read it through some strong filters. But really, the book should just be banned. :shifty


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[Codi]

So glad those were never books I picked up. :shiver

[CoffeeMom]

I read the secular version of Babywise and I don't remember reading anything about the baby manipulating, etc. (That might be just in the "Christian" version. Sigh.) But I do remember reading some ridiculous and false information about breastfeeding. Things like scheduled feedings (sorry, parent-directed feedings) being better for a mom's milk supply than feeding on demand. Common sense proves that wrong!

Other than the horrible BF'ing advice, I didn't like the fear-based style. Everything boiled down to...if you do this, OH NO...gasp! I feel like the author is the one who manipulates because he preys on the fear that all new parents have of not doing everything "right" (you won't, no matter how you parent) or that you will never sleep again (you will). So it comes across as THE way to do things and how to make becoming a parent barely a blip on the radar of your well-ordered life. :( The people that I know that embrace it are very Type-A personalities.

[reb]

They had it for sale in the book store at the Christian family camp we went to last year. One of the staff was pregnant and I witnessed a woman with 4 kids ask her if she'd read it yet and then strongly recommend it because it had worked so well on her kids. I didn't want to make a scene but I still wish I had said something, recommended an alternative book. The first time mom seemed so grateful for the suggestion. :(

(emphasis mine.) i think this is what it boils down to right there. it's not about nurturing children and learning who they are and how you can help them figure this crazy world out, it's about what works ON them to get them to fit more conveniently into YOUR world. i have a friend who swears by BW and our friendship, since we became mothers, has severely suffered because of it. every time i mentioned that DS wasn't sleeping or i was struggling with his naps or whatever (he was a horrible sleeper), she'd whip her copy out and tell me what it said. i appreciate her wanting to help, but...no thanks. :( she didn't meet her nursing goal, but yay! her son and daughter both STTN by three months of age or whatever it was because she started them on the BW routine at 2 weeks old. :cry

it also makes me so, so sad that so many BW parents feel morally superior to those who don't use the book because the book basically says that if you don't do what they say, your kid is going to be demon spawn. i want to shake them and tell them that what they believe to be morally superior is actually really, really hurting their tiny babies!

[Sparrow]

I just spoke to a new family the other day about the dangers of Babywise and the dangers of taking any parenting "guru's" word as gospel when that expert claims to present a formulaic approach to child rearing. Rather, I emphasized that they should get to be experts on their own baby and parent responsively.

This is great advice. Even "Parenting Guru" Doctor Sears says not to take anyone's advice 100 % and go with your gut.

Irishslane - I don't have the heart to read Babywise. I don't think I could stomach it. It'll make me angry in a very unhealthy way.

I know the gist of it. I've read snippets online. And what I tell people is that I cannot get behind a man who claims that his methods are so good that you build a lifelong relationship with your children that is GOOD. His children no longer speak to their parents and haven't for years.

---------- Post added at 03:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:28 PM ----------



Other than the horrible BF'ing advice, I didn't like the fear-based style. Everything boiled down to...if you do this, OH NO...gasp! I feel like the author is the one who manipulates because he preys on the fear that all new parents have of not doing everything "right" (you won't, no matter how you parent) or that you will never sleep again (you will). So it comes across as THE way to do things and how to make becoming a parent barely a blip on the radar of your well-ordered life. :( The people that I know that embrace it are very Type-A personalities.

I know! You'll never sleep again. Well actually, people need sleep to live. You cannot live a long time if you do not sleep.

DH is a Type A personality and even he thinks that at least for the first year you roll with the baby.

[Aerynne]

I can't even read stuff like that because when I'm reading it, even though in my head I'm saying "this is crazy" I am actually meaner to my kids after reading it, so I internalize the messages even though I know how horrible they are. It is poison for a mother's (or father's) soul!

[Sparrow]

it also makes me so, so sad that so many BW parents feel morally superior to those who don't use the book because the book basically says that if you don't do what they say, your kid is going to be demon spawn. i want to shake them and tell them that what they believe to be morally superior is actually really, really hurting their tiny babies!

Does he even get into how that logically makes sense? Even before I discovered AP, or gentle parenting or anything for my own understanding children who are modelled kindness, selflessness etc, give it out. When you teach a child that they DON'T come first, by putting yourself first :scratch I don't know how that makes sense?

[solatido]

I rolled my eyes so hard they almost fell out reading that book. I think I started with BW2, for 6+ months. The first chapter said something about how now your baby should only need milk/formula 4 times per day... um... wha???

I knew a mom who does babywise and she was dealing with milk supply issues so my first suggestion was more frequent nursing and adding a night time feeding between 2 and 6 a.m. I don't think the second part went over well :shrug3 but I always start my criticism of BW by discussing his breastfeeding advice which is terrible by any standard. That helps for more constructive conversations.

A ton of people at church do BW but since we live with family I have the perfect excuse- we can't do CIO in our living situation :snooty so THERE.

[Codi]

I can't even read stuff like that because when I'm reading it, even though in my head I'm saying "this is crazy" I am actually meaner to my kids after reading it, so I internalize the messages even though I know how horrible they are. It is poison for a mother's (or father's) soul!

:yes2 It's like hanging around other parent's who do it. I am APPALLED at some of the things I see/hear (for example, calling their kids brats) but later find myself thinking it. :cry It truly is poisonous. I refuse to even check the stuff out first hand. :no Nope. Will. Not. Do. It.

[MercyInDisguise]

:yes2 It's like hanging around other parent's who do it. I am APPALLED at some of the things I see/hear (for example, calling their kids brats) but later find myself thinking it. :cry It truly is poisonous. I refuse to even check the stuff out first hand. :no Nope. Will. Not. Do. It.

:hug I think this is very important in the trenches of parenting little ones. I am so glad there are women like Kathy (katiekind) who invest time and energy on sites like ezzo.info and getting the info out there for moms who need it, but I think it must be easier to read that info once your kids are grown up and NOT the psychopaths Ezzo says they will become. :shifty

[Caecelia]

I didn't realize katiekind helped put together Ezzo.info!


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[MercyInDisguise]

I didn't realize katiekind helped put together Ezzo.info!


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She's kind of awesome like that. :heart

[BarefootBetsy]

Just to add a little levity:

Two weekends ago I went to a church rummage sale where the books were 8/$1 so, of course, I bought the copy of Babywise I found. I was planning to burn it in an outdoor fire that night when some friends came over, but I forgot to so the next day I let my 7 month old (who is *fascinated* by books, which we, of course, never give him :no since we like books around here) have it.

In my Baby's Wisdom, he has eaten and torn that book to shreds :rockon Best toy EVER :giggle

[katiekind]

Just a minor detail to correct an impression that might have been received in the thread--Babywise IS the secular version of the Ezzos' infant parenting advice.

:cool

[SillyMommy]

:cup


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[Zooey]

Just to add a little levity:

Two weekends ago I went to a church rummage sale where the books were 8/$1 so, of course, I bought the copy of Babywise I found. I was planning to burn it in an outdoor fire that night when some friends came over, but I forgot to so the next day I let my 7 month old (who is *fascinated* by books, which we, of course, never give him :no since we like books around here) have it.

In my Baby's Wisdom, he has eaten and torn that book to shreds :rockon Best toy EVER :giggle
I have my own favorite method of dealing with that kind of junk (& its a ;)handy household hint, too): The cats' litter box stays cleaner longer with something in the bottom lining it. Like, say, oh.....Ezzo, Pearl, etc, etc.

[MercyInDisguise]

I have my own favorite method of dealing with that kind of junk (& its a ;)handy household hint, too): The cats' litter box stays cleaner longer with something in the bottom lining it. Like, say, oh.....Ezzo, Pearl, etc, etc.

Ha! We had a nice big bonfire full of CTBHHM, TTUAC, and SACH. :shifty

[JulAmber]

I think it says A LOT that the author's own kids are estranged from them. On the flip side you have Dr. Sears kids that are all very close with their parents. I live in the buckle of the Bible belt and am surrounded by BWers who think I'm ruining my kids. Luckily I found an amazing group of APers in my area!

[reb]

Ha! We had a nice big bonfire full of CTBHHM, TTUAC, and SACH. :shifty

i have a friend who bought up all the copies she came across at goodwill, paperbackswap, etc. and cut them up to make those little paperback Christmas trees one year for the holidays. :)

[katiekind]

I think it says A LOT that the author's own kids are estranged from them. It does. I know a lot of people from all sorts of parenting backgrounds, and I don't know anyone whose children are estranged from them. That is a very rare situation. Why in the world you'd look out over all the available parenting mentors and choose the ones whose adult children have cut off contact with them, I cannot answer. I don't get it.

[ECingMama]

I buy every used copy I see. I already pay for recycling, so.......rip, in it goes.

One of the things that breaks my heart is the emphasis on solids over nursing. 20 tbsp of solids for a 5 month old is too much. Just nurse more! :no

[Soliloquy]

I read it, too. I am also the type that wants to know, first hand, what has really been written.

I read Babywise and Growing Kids God's Way. I also read To Train Up A Child.

While TTUAC was far more violent, physically, it seemed to me that the Ezzo material was far more violent in a relational manner. I could not shake the impression that the Ezzos really don't like children. :( It was just an impression and I could be wrong. There was enough factual, black-and-white info in both books that was just awful. The Pearls admonished against punishing for normal childish things while the Ezzos did warn parents that they had to punish for childish things--like a baby getting babyfood in her hair. "God is not glorified by a baby with carrots in her hair." 9 years later, I still remember that quote from GKGW. I was horrified by it.

Another thing that really stood out to me was the admonition for a new mother to set a goal, every week, to gradually get herself so that she was showered, dressed, and in full make-up by a certain time each day. And, when baby was a certain age, I believe 6 weeks, to plan a dinner party to force herself to stop thinking about her baby and put others first. :bheart

Your baby is only little once. Any guests that would come over and want to be put first over a tiny baby . . . I just can't imagine. I would never let a mother of a 6-week-old baby cook me dinner. I'd bring her dinner.

The other comment that stood out to me in GKGW was the admonition to ask yourself, as a mother, "If the Ezzos came over for dinner tonight, what would they think of my children?" :scratch We are to concern ourselves with obeying God, not pleasing the Ezzos.

[MercyInDisguise]

:jawdrop I've read Babywise, but not gkgw, and just.... Wow.

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[Peaceful Meadows]

When I was pregnant with my first, one of my cousins came to visit us and brought her GKGW stuff for me to borrow if I wanted. I saw the power struggle between her and her oldest and how food was a huge battle between them. I declined to borrow the curriculum.

A few months later while we were visiting my parents my mom threw us a baby shower. My cousin gave me Baby Wise. Even though by that time I'd heard warnings about it, I thought, "It can't be as bad as people say it is." I started reading it. It made me so very ANGRY. I tore some of the pages out of the book and tossed them and the book in the trash. It was much worse than what people were saying. It was the worst baby shower gift ever. :yes2

I'm sad that it's still out there. :cry

[MercyInDisguise]

You know, one of the worst things for me is the positive reviews that I've read. The so-called "positive" things people say have happened as a result of using the GKGW curriculum are NOT things I see as positives! Babies sttn at 1-2 months :bheart, people being able to put their babies to sleep and forget they even have them, etc. :no

[Shutterbug]

I buy every used copy I see. I already pay for recycling, so.......rip, in it goes.

One of the things that breaks my heart is the emphasis on solids over nursing. 20 tbsp of solids for a 5 month old is too much. Just nurse more! :no

I went to a consignment sale a couple weeks ago and there were about four or five of them. I was so tempted to buy them all up to dispose of them. I'm wishing I would have.

[reb]

The Pearls admonished against punishing for normal childish things while the Ezzos did warn parents that they had to punish for childish things--like a baby getting babyfood in her hair. "God is not glorified by a baby with carrots in her hair." 9 years later, I still remember that quote from GKGW. I was horrified by it.

i don't know....when my son got sweet potato all over his face and hair, then gave me a GIGANTIC smile because he was enjoying himself and his food, i was pretty in awe of how God makes these beautiful little people to fill our lives with goofiness. is God glorified if i immediately smack his little arm and tell him that he's naughty, which eliminates that smile? not my God.

[Peaceful Meadows]

is God glorified if i immediately smack his little arm and tell him that he's naughty, which eliminates that smile? not my God.

Oh,but don't ya know that God does condone that. After all Jesus said, "Put all the children on a blanket for blanket time and the come to me so that I can talk to you without th ge interruptions of those pesky kids." :shifty :snooty. It's right there in the book of Ezzo 6:66. :shifty

[MercyInDisguise]

Oh,but don't ya know that God does condone that. After all Jesus said, "Put all the children on a blanket for blanket time and the come to me so that I can talk to you without th ge interruptions of those pesky kids." :shifty :snooty. It's right there in the book of Ezzo 6:66. :shifty

"And cursed is he who smeareth the food of babes into his tresses, for he is an abomination unto the Lord."

[Hermana Linda]

"And cursed is he who smeareth the food of babes into his tresses, for he is an abomination unto the Lord."
:spit

[Soliloquy]

Cursed is the woman whose face is not painted by noon, nor her tresses adorned lavishly by the time of her husband's return. Lest ye forget the holy dinner party . . .

[Shutterbug]

You guys are cracking me up!

[gdzprncess]

I did not realize how horrible this book is. Most of the mamas at my church are pretty crunchy so I don't know of anyone that has it in real life

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[solatido]

My pastor's wife goes on and on about gkgw but keeps forgetting to bring it to me. Shame, that! She knows I've read bw though and I made a big deal of how TERRIBLE the feeding advice is. She doesn't agree with some of their theology but likes the ways they teach kids they aren't the center of the universe. Whatevs.

[NewCovenantMama]

"God is not glorified by a baby with carrots in her hair."

:jawdrop How can anyone take this stuff seriously?!

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

I could not shake the impression that the Ezzos really don't like children. :(

I would think from their materials, it's pretty clear they loathe children.

[rjy9343]

One thing that jumps out at me is that there are a lot of punitive authors that still have a relationship with their children. And it appears to be a warm one. Punitive parenting does not cause your children to cut you out of their lives. There are a lot of questions in my mind about that and the first one is how can anyone take parenting advice from someone that does not have a relationship with either of their children? It is simply not natural or normal to cut loving parents out of your life.
The other thing is I did read BW and BW2 after Ivy turned two or three thinking that by now the baby ick would not bother me. I was so wrong. The antagonistic attitudes they have towards kids rubbed off on me and I started resenting Ivy!:doh:sick :mutter :cry I would like to read the rest of the series, but I am going to have to wait until she is an adult and that ick can't hurt us.
Their teachings twisted or down right lied about ap, the studies they cited were at least ten years old and there were no straight answers about things like feeding when baby is hungry. On one hand, you fed your baby when she was hungry, but if she did not get a full feeding because she fell asleep, then she waited until the next feed. Or how parent directed feeding is the safe sane middle ground to scheduled feeding and demand feeding. :scratch

[Zooey]

One thing that jumps out at me is that there are a lot of punitive authors that still have a relationship with their children. And it appears to be a warm one. Punitive parenting does not cause your children to cut you out of their lives. There are a lot of questions in my mind about that and the first one is how can anyone take parenting advice from someone that does not have a relationship with either of their children? It is simply not natural or normal to cut loving parents out of your life.
The other thing is I did read BW and BW2 after Ivy turned two or three thinking that by now the baby ick would not bother me. I was so wrong. The antagonistic attitudes they have towards kids rubbed off on me and I started resenting Ivy!:doh:sick :mutter :cry I would like to read the rest of the series, but I am going to have to wait until she is an adult and that ick can't hurt us.
Their teachings twisted or down right lied about ap, the studies they cited were at least ten years old and there were no straight answers about things like feeding when baby is hungry. On one hand, you fed your baby when she was hungry, but if she did not get a full feeding because she fell asleep, then she waited until the next feed. Or how parent directed feeding is the safe sane middle ground to scheduled feeding and demand feeding. :scratch
That's really good point. It takes an extreme amount of toxicity for a grown child to reject parents....

[Hilary316]

Yes, it is manipulative and his methods prey on parents who are eager to do everything right--i.e., those parents who may have an inflated sense of how much they are going to be able to control their children and the outcome of rearing them. Let's face it, having a child is such a huge life changing event. For many people, planning and seeking control in an otherwise new situation that feels out of control is a way that people instinctively try to lower their stress levels.

Yep, this is the exact reason it appealed to me as a new mom. A well meaning church friend (with 8 awesome, obedient children, no less) gave me the original study book and the doubt and guilt that it cast in my heart was just.... well, I couldnt fight it, and I became obsessed with baby sleep from the time she gave it to me (my baby was 10 weeks) until I had my third baby. I am a first generation Christian, I knew nothing about babies (at all, never babysat or anything) so I needed help and yes, I wanted to do it the RIGHT way and so that mixed with PPD, the huge life change that having a baby brings... it was really bad. I barely remember anything about my first daughter's first year of life except being obsessed with timing her naps and bedtime. :( I have several friends who say the same.

[Hermana Linda]

:hugheart

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[rjy9343]

:hug2

[bliss]

God is not glorified by a baby with carrots in her hair. Like *God* God? God that made everything and runs everything? :think He may have bigger fish to fry than food on a baby's face.

I'm so glad I never bought into any of that stuff. My dd was an easygoing baby who scheduling probably would have worked pretty well for. My son though, he was SO needy, and nursed SO much, I can't even imagine the damage to his psyche a program like Babywise would have done :bheart.

[katiekind]

God is not glorified by a baby with carrots in her hair. That quote was so goofy. I have a memory of hearing the Ezzos say that on their radio program (they had a call-in radio program back in the day) while I had just been admiring the way God had wired my baby to engage and learn about his surroundings by exploring it carefully with all his senses, which at that present moment was some food on his highchair tray. The process was a little messy but God did not care about a little mess. God was glorified by the way HE made babies to learn.

[keepinghome]

Lol at "hate read". I read the pearls ttuac like that. It is so ridiculous. Its oddly enjoyable for me to read and disagree with something so much.... i keep them around when i feel in the mood. maybe because its the only fun "critical" (hardly) thinking I get to do ha

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[OatsandBran11]

A friend asked me if I wanted to borrow her copy of Babywise II because it was very helpful regarding starting solids and discipline. Having read and rejected the first one, I said no thanks because the schedule thing didn't really apply to us.

I always wondered about the discipline part. At that time, I felt maybe I was missing something since I didn't really see a need to discipline my 6 month old? Now I understand...DD needed to be disciplined not to get carrots in her hair. My bad. :)

[rjy9343]

In that paradigm, your daughter needed to be disciplined for a lot of things. Not staying still in her high chair, not sleeping when she is supposed to sleep, not staying on her blanket, not separating from you and generally being selfish and demanding. Their thing is to teach your baby early that he/she is not the center of the world and that he/she must wait his/her turn.
I don't even want to think about what Ivy's life would look like if I followed that advice.