Explain why first time "obedience" is wrong

[willtravelforfood]

Hope it's ok to post a lot! I think I'll get my first 10 posts in quickly! :giggle

I'm having a hard time letting go of the idea of first time obedience (or I guess i should say "compliance"). I've read some on the topic, however, I don't exactly know how to reconcile it in my mind. I don't mind the idea of a child questioning a command. I actually think that can be a good thing. But I guess I don't really see how that could work with a toddler and how to give them room to question and still require them to eventually comply. Can someone please help explain it?!

[Codi]

Well I don't require first time obedience. I actually hate that word. :shifty

Here's how it might look in my house...

ME: Dd, you need to pick up the toys in your bedroom.
DD: Why?
ME: Explain why. Now please go do that.
DD: May or may not decide to listen to me. If she does, GREAT! If not, I make it happen. I make my words have meaning and physically help her get in there if needed and understand her ability and if she is even capable of doing what is being requested without action based on age, maturity, etc.

If there is a legit reason why she cannot do what I am asking her right at the moment. That's fine. As long as we both follow through (her on her side, me on mine) to get the job done. :yes

She may reply: Ok Mommy, after I finish coloring this page Ill do that.

:tu

It's about mutual respect. :shrug I see no reason for requiring first time obedience. But I do require my children to listen and be respectful and do what is required of them as part of the family. :yes

I think if you have a child constantly fighting you on things and not listening, there are other issues going on. Whether that be something in your relationship with them, your approach, respect between the two of you, or unrealistic expectations or constant nagging and no follow through.

[katiekind]

For me, I don't like it because it's an artificial standard. Sure, you want your child to listen to you and follow through on what you tell him or her to do. That's important. You want them to respect your words and your authority and to cooperate with you. You want to not have to repeat yourself over and over or have to cajole and beg. So you DO work on making your words count and requiring your children to comply, and setting the stage for a home where cooperation is the norm.

But to focus on "first time" is kind of to take the relationship out of the situation and focuses on a mechanical aspect that so often has to be adjusted to accommodate real life, that it's not really practical.

Think of the parable Jesus told about two sons - the father tells both sons to do something and one son says he won't - but has a change of heart and goes and does it. The other son says he will, but doesn't follow through. The punch line Jesus delivers is, "which son obeyed?"

That's a helpful parable to remember when someone tries to portray "first time obedience" as being a biblical standard. It is not.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

I think if you have a child constantly fighting you on things and not listening, there are other issues going on. That's a really good point.

[Codi]

I know for me that when things get really rough with my kids, it's a lack of connection that really needs to be addressed and fixed. :yes

[saturnfire16]

First time compliance is all about what's convenient for the parent. It's not actually what's best for the relationship or for the child's development into a mature, responsible, thinking, self-motivated adult.

Convenience is nice, and I sure appreciate when my kids comply the first time. :yes Safety is important, so sometimes complying the first time is non-negotiable. This morning my 5 year old was about to cross the road when a car was coming. I yelled "STOP!" She instantly stopped in her tracks. Not because I have EVER punished her for not complying the first time (or at all), but because she knows that for me to say something so sharply, it's important.

In the vast majority of circumstances though, you really look at the parent's motivation, it's about their convenience and demanding their own way in a very selfish, controlling manner. Not an example I want to model to my kids. :no

I prefer to focus on meeting everyone's needs and solving problems. When needs are met, they are much more likely to actually obey (vs. comply), which comes from a place of love, trust and respect. When I focus on solving problems, they learn how to do that for themselves, which I believe is one of the most important skills they can learn as adults.

The ability to see their own needs and express them, empathize with someone else's needs and have enough compassion to want to help them, brainstorm possible solutions and find an appropriate one, does not come from a childhood filled with being expected to comply like a robot. It comes from having their own needs met and having someone demonstrate how to take their preferences into account and find solutions.

[MarynMunchkins]

God tells children to obey their parents, not parents to make their children obey. :)

I have plenty enough on my plate that making my kids follow directions the first time I saw something no matter what is outside the scope of by ability. When I do that, I'll teach them to do it. ;)

[HadassahSukkot]

Authoritarian parenting that requires blind obedience does not allow for a) normal childhood development b) critical thinking skills or c) the ability to think of your child as a normal human being that deserves respect as well as care for their mental/physical/emotional well-being. :shifty

What you will see is that this causes parents to wax cold and hostile towards their child and often put the child down for normal childhood behavior. If the child doesn't blindly obey/obey right away (even if they do not like it), parents will then force the child to do it through violence and punishment as well as psychological control.

Such a view that you must meet a goal first time and always happily as soon as mommy/daddy say will cause you to see your child as a rebellious child. You will in turn view your child through the lens of your principles, force submission via corporal and psychological means and likely justify it with the Bible.:(


I grew up that way, and for a while that is how I saw my children. It is that kind of abuse that can have a child removed from one's home. That was a real wake-up call, plus the fact I was having flashbacks to my own upbringing and the Bible and I (deep down!) just didn't agree with that kind of parenting at all. If I hold egalitarian beliefs about my husband and myself, why do I see my children as lesser beings who should just empty themselves entirely to bend to my every whim?:shrug3

This doesn't mean I let my kids get away with stuff. :no We work together as a team in their best interests. They might not obey the first or second time, but they know if something has to be done, they can do it alone or one of us will help make it happen.:yes

We hear a lot of "We are a team! We need to make it happen!" now. Next week we might hear "No, I don't want to be a team!" again. :giggle But for now, we're a pretty cohesive unit most of the time. :heart

[milkmommy]

I don't think it is in general a "bad thing" requiring it to a degree that dismisses both age and safety. *expecting a 2 year old to jump to attention or never allowing a why question etc. Is where first time obedience I think goes array. I do teach my kids that I have their best intrest *me and daddy* that their is a difference between asking why are we doing or why am I doing XYZ and saying no let me hear my options and they I'll decide. We do strive for it but don't punish for it not being met and also acknowlege it comes both after years of trust and looks different in different situations.

[bolt.]

It's just that toddlers, like everyone else, are *people* -- which means that when they hear an instruction they must (and always will) process it, have natural reactions to it, apply it to the situation, and do various other internal/cognitive things before taking action. These are things that we all do when we are given an instruction. They are normal human cognitive processes.

Being small under-developed people, these stages often require more than an instant to accomplish, and they sometimes go awry... so, taking more than an instant to understand, apply, and follow a parent's instructions is simply normal for children.

Older children also do things like recognize when their emotions indicate that they'd rather not follow an instruction, and (often) verbalize that reaction, and (at a more advanced age) analyze various likely-results of various possible actions in response to the instruction and make decisions based on their predictions. Intelligence. It grows.

It makes the most sense to gain a child's co-operation by *facilitating* these processes and making time for them between instructions and compliance. This contributes to the development of good judgement. It makes his/her family feel collaborative instead of adversarial.

It makes VERY little sense to suppress and circumvent the normal cognitive process by introducing stress, time pressure or even fear into the situation.

When we introduce fear (of punishment -- corporal or other types, or fear of emotional/relational upset) into the process, the child recognizes it as an "emergency" and will often behave irrationally -- showing stubbornness instead of co-operation, or showing immediate compliance based on the pain-avoidance instinct.

In my family we always say, "Following instructions helps us to be a happy family." So I do expect my children to follow my instructions -- but not all of my instructions are "emergencies". I can't imagine the strain of my children viewing all of my instructions as time-pressure crises that don't allow any space for thought or reaction. I don't want them stressed out. I don't want their processes of good judgement over-ruled by their instinct to avoid maternal anger. It's against the kind of family I want to live in and counter-to the goals I have for raising children.

[ArmsOfLove]

It's not so much that it's wrong - when it happens, it's great :tu When I have to enforce first time compliance, that's great too :tu

But the idea isn't Biblically sound. And it stresses parents out and gives others something to judge people on so I don't find any use for it as a doctrinal idea :no

[rjy9343]

I can't speak for others, but in my home we don't do it because it focuses on actions and results instead of the relationship we are trying to build. When my daughter's needs are being met and she is connected to us, she is very compliant for 3.5.
When we lose sight of the need to connect with her in way she gets, we end up fighting her every step of the way. That is bad enough, but it also bleeds into our relationship and it quickly becomes a war zone where everyone is fighting with each other about everything.
The other big thing for me is that I worry that by forcing issues, I am teaching her to go straight to confrontation instead of consensus building. While confronting and forcing issues has it's place, cooler heads prevail. I want her to be able to be a voice of reason and have the ability to find a solution that is a winner for everyone when she is an adult.

[Aerynne]

I want my kids to be able to negotiate with me. I do NOT tolerate my instructions being ignored. I have no problem with "I have to pee first", or "Can I get to a good stopping point?" (boy I hear that one a lot from my voracious reader) or "Can I do it this other way instead" or "My sister was supposed to do that" Still, if I then say "No, I need you to do it, and I need you to do it right now" then I expect them to do it.

Also I think too much obedience drilled into their heads can set them up to be victims of abuse.

[HadassahSukkot]

Beyond all of that, I really think that immediate first time obedience is something you will find with certain personalities and not others. :shrug3 Some people have to learn the scientific was and some people need to be walked through with a hand being held through it all.

Children are learning that they are not an extension of their mother (or father's) body but all they are belongs to them. Once they're working that out, they need safety to say "no" to safe people and be told when that "no" is unreasonable, so that when it is really time for a boundary to be a strong "NO!" it stands.

With discipline - we disciple kids. They get to learn when and how and why they listen to us vs just anyone off the street or any one of their other relatives. They build their boundaries under careful watch and consideration.


Sure, I'd love immediate obedience. My kids personality and needs don't lend towards that without more information input into them though. They are strongly results oriented and if they can't figure out the hows and whys, they're not going to be able to compute and complete the order. "Do it now, because I said so." is not enough information to make it happen. :shrug3


A lot of Christian parenting books like to use dog or horse training to explain why first time obedience "or" has to happen. (Or = physical punishment, shaming, etc.) But anyone who trains a working animal will tell you, the thing you need the most is for there to be a lot of trust and understanding between the handler and animal. Your charge needs to be able to communicate and be trusted. They need to be able to help you out of a bad situation, rather than become a risk. They have to trust you with their life, as much as you are trusting them with yours. If you have a very anxious, depressed or angry animal, you have to help them unlearn all those horrible things that happened so that they are reliable. If they become dangerous or untrustworthy they have to be retired (best scenario) or put down (absolutely worst scenario). :( Beyond that - our children aren't animals. :shrug3

If we can't disciple our children carefully to allow their brains to make all the connections they have to, they can stifle that and may never make those connections. Or, they might find themselves learning something as an adult that they ought to have learned as a small child. :shifty

When you walk them through the motions, bits of information are building neural pathways in their brain making many tiny connections and will help them out later in many situations. You're lighting up their language centers, emotions, automatic pilot reactions, reflexive memory, sensory centers: smells, tastes, touch, sounds. All things they will need in the future.:yes

When there is an undercurrent of abuse or the threat of abuse, those centers of the brain will be triggered when similar situations come up when they are grown. Depending how bad that was growing up, it can cause physical or emotional illnesses. :(

Personal story, feel free to skip:

I have a lot of acquaintances and friends who were brought up similarly to how I was and it is astounding how crazy and similar it all was. We're all dealing with the fallout and we range between our mid twenties to early forties. Several of us are medicated for anxiety disorders, long term depression that stems from childhood, associative disorders or chronic health issues that keep us from holding long-term employment or being able to keep up with our personal care.

We're having to rebuild our lives due to what happened to us, or teach ourselves things our parents should have. For those of us who have children, there are ages and stages that are very triggering due to it bringing up memories of our own childhood. We have to parent ourselves through the situation as well as parenting our children. In our brains, we do not just see our children, but ourselves in their place. It's really difficult and I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy on the worst day of my life. :(

[Can'tTurnLeft]

First time obedience is awesome...when it happens. And as a child ages you see more of it. But it isn't something that is required, though it is a goal in our house to obey. I am fine with a child asking why, and I am fine with alternative suggestions if they don't like or want to do what I say. I want my kids to know they can ask why and that their ideas have value. Because that freedom has been given they are more likely to obey me the first time as they grow. They are learning I'm not telling them to clean up the water on the floor to make them miserable, but there is sound reasoning behind my requests. So they are more likely now to obey the first time than they were when they were little and I hope this trend continues.

First time obedience should grow and develop as children learn the whys of the world and increase their trust. It is never, and should never, be all the time on every thing. The danger of always obeying the first time is it can easily lead to a dangerous path as a child grows up. I want my children to feel free to question rules and people. If they don't they can easily be taken advantage of.

[willtravelforfood]

Wow! Thank you for all the the great responses. I have a lot to think and pray about! I'm sure I'll have to go back and read everything again a few more times. :yes

The Lord has revealed so much to me! I don't have time to write it all out right now, but I will!

[Virginia]

I want my children to feel free to question rules and people. If they don't they can easily be taken advantage of.

Amen to this.
I don't have kids yet, and I don't have anything new to add, but I was raised in a "Do this because I said so" house. I just wanted to reiterate what others have already said: it's not a healthy mindset, for the parent OR the child. It kind of makes me sick thinking about how my parents (Dad especially) expected me to be a little robot and do everything they said without questioning.

The only things I learned from first time obedience were a) your opinion doesn't matter, b) it doesn't matter how reasonably and calmly you state your opinion...it doesn't matter, and c) parents aren't willing to listen to you and actually understand where you're coming from.

That doesn't sound like something I want my future kids to learn and struggle with into adulthood :(

[babyfeet]

This thread is very helpful to me, too! I'm still pretty early in my parenting/gentle parenting journey and reading through all this is really helpful to wrap my mind around why we're doing things the way we are, as well as how I can articulate why we are doing things this way to people who don't understand. :yes

[Housekat]

I don't require of my kids things I don't do myself, as a general rule.

The number of times I say "just a minute" or "later" to a request by anyone, in particular my children, doesn't bear thinking about :shifty

[willtravelforfood]

This thread is very helpful to me, too! I'm still pretty early in my parenting/gentle parenting journey and reading through all this is really helpful to wrap my mind around why we're doing things the way we are, as well as how I can articulate why we are doing things this way to people who don't understand. :yes

Yes! Knowing how to explain things to others is going to be so helpful for me (once I wrap my head around it first!). I know there are going to be lots of confrontations and I need to know why I'm doing things and be prepared to answer (or not).

[bolt.]

You actually don't need to do "confrontations" or explanations if you don't want to. Patenting is full of personal freedoms. It's often most comfortable to say things like, "It's OK that I've changed my mind." And, "I've thought that problem through, thanks." -- Without giving other people the impression that you consider your decisions 'up for debate'. You don't actually owe people a good explanation unless the relationship is cozy and an explainaton would be a pleasant sharing -type conversation.

[rjy9343]

You actually don't need to do "confrontations" or explanations if you don't want to. Patenting is full of personal freedoms. It's often most comfortable to say things like, "It's OK that I've changed my mind." And, "I've thought that problem through, thanks." -- Without giving other people the impression that you consider your decisions 'up for debate'. You don't actually owe people a good explanation unless the relationship is cozy and an explainaton would be a pleasant sharing -type conversation.
That is some of the best advice you can get, I wish I knew that a few years ago. My confidence took a lot of hits it did not need to take in the name of explaining my position.

[JoEllen]

Think of the parable Jesus told about two sons - the father tells both sons to do something and one son says he won't - but has a change of heart and goes and does it. The other son says he will, but doesn't follow through. The punch line Jesus delivers is, "which son obeyed?"

That's a helpful parable to remember when someone tries to portray "first time obedience" as being a biblical standard. It is not.

Exactly. :yes