Sin nature.

[ruhama]

Okay. Had a friend ask me how we make the choice to parent gently while still holding onto the idea that babies are born sinful. I have my own ideas about this, but how do YOU explain the need to parent gently despite (or because of) the belief that we are born into sin? Is that along the lines of foolishness bound up in the heart? I never fully understood that part on aolff.

:popcorn

[J3K]

God loved us , and was gentle with us , and sent his son to die for us while we were sinners.
No amount of physical and mental punishment would make us love Him. It's his KINDNESS that draws us to repentance , KNOWING that He loves us no matter what we do , THAT makes us love him.

Likewise , I intend to draw my children to Christ the same gentle , loving , kind way.

[Calee]

Well, even if you (general) believe in sin nature in small children, you can still discipline gently :scratch It is not as if we are not discipline/teaching/leading at all-just differently than "they" think discipline looks like. Gentle discipline does not=no discipline.

[Barefoot Bookworm]

Jesus died for ALL of our sins. Not just grown ups, children too. It's not my job to beat the sin out of my child, I can't absolve anyone of their sins. It's my job to direct them toward Jesus, to teach them how to treat others, and to treat them kindly and lovingly while still gracefully correcting them when needed. I can help them identify what needs to change, show them a better way, and pray with them but I can't make those changes for them. I can't control anyone which is what it seems like people are trying to do when they spank for sinning.

[blondie]

:cup

My dad uses the "sin nature" phrase about my babies and it drives me up the wall. :shifty

[Two Little Birds]

Jesus died for ALL of our sins. Not just grown ups, children too. It's not my job to beat the sin out of my child, I can't absolve anyone of their sins. It's my job to direct them toward Jesus, to teach them how to treat others, and to treat them kindly and lovingly while still gracefully correcting them when needed. I can help them identify what needs to change, show them a better way, and pray with them but I can't make those changes for them. I can't control anyone which is what it seems like people are trying to do when they spank for sinning.

Exactly, especially the bolded. I can not control my child's actions. It doesn't matter if I label them sin or not.

[forty-two]

Well, even if you (general) believe in sin nature in small children, you can still discipline gently It is not as if we are not discipline/teaching/leading at all-just differently than "they" think discipline looks like. Gentle discipline does not=no discipline.
I totally agree with you :yes.

But lots of people see pain as an essential part of the discipline process, either for pragmatic reasons ("they won't listen if it doesn't hurt to not listen"), or for spiritual reasons (pain is somehow necessary because of sin - to pay for our sin, to be made aware of sin, due to sin it takes pain for us to listen (the last of which is basically the spiritual reason for the aforementioned pragmatic view)).

Showing how GBD is just as effective at teaching and guiding children - that it is a *different* way of disciplining, not *not* disciplining - will answer pragmatic objections. But it does not, in itself, answer the spiritual objections. Because there are lots of "successful by their outward forms" approaches to life that are Biblically wrong. And people who believe that punishment has spiritual benefit aren't going to abandon it just because a non-punishing approach can achieve the same *outward* goals - they need to see why punishment doesn't do what they think it does, that it is *not* of *any* spiritual benefit.

This was hard for me to wrap my brain around for a while (as most defenses of GBD I saw were from the perspective that children are not capable of making a conscious choice to sin, and so there was no reason to need to "make them aware of their sin" in the first place, and I am more on the total depravity side of the coin), but I realized that, whatever our view of how one's sin nature affects us and our children, we as parents still can't do even a smidgeon to fix or ameliorate the effects of sin on our children's hearts. Any which way you look at it, that's God's role, not ours. We humans can't change the heart. And any parenting approach that requires it is doomed to failure.

Which is basically my answer to the question. I can't parent the sin out of my child, and I can't parent them into salvation. It is all God - making them aware of their sin, removing sin and sin guilt and saving them - and us :amen.

I can't do a smidgeon to "deal with the heart". And *God* is responsible for punishing sin, not me. The things people use pain to accomplish, spiritually speaking, are not up to us to accomplish at all :no, but God alone. And *God* uses His glorious Gospel to accomplish it :heart, which is the very opposite of punishment :amen. God does use punishment sometimes - but to *kill*, not to bring to life :no.

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

(as most defenses of GBD I saw were from the perspective that children are not capable of making a conscious choice to sin, and so there was no reason to need to "make them aware of their sin" in the first place, and I am more on the total depravity side of the coin), but I realized that, whatever our view of how one's sin nature affects us and our children, we as parents still can't do even a smidgeon to fix or ameliorate the effects of sin on our children's hearts. Any which way you look at it, that's God's role, not ours. We humans can't change the heart. And any parenting approach that requires it is doomed to failure.

Which is basically my answer to the question. I can't parent the sin out of my child, and I can't parent them into salvation. It is all God - making them aware of their sin, removing sin and sin guilt and saving them - and us :amen.


This, totally.

Someone who parents punitively may *feel* like his/her discipline is getting results because of the immediate nature or pain, i.e., the kid cries, feels bad, shows remorse (because of the punishment), etc. But I've also seen, many times, children who just want to get their spanking "over with" so they can get back to playing or whatever. To them, it did nothing for the heart issue. But the mother still gave it because she thought it was Biblical and commanded, and the way a Godly mother parents.

[ruhama]

Thank you, 42. I appreciate you approaching it from that perspective. Nothing I say will change minds on theology.

My feeling is (from that perspective) - how can we accurately judge their hearts when our eyes are clouded with our own sin nature? Children are not responsible for their sin as toddlers, why do people set out to judge their hearts so early (0-5 years) and then punish them for their sins?

I just see total-depravity as something that is COMPLETELY unhelpful in a parenting perspective. It's like other hard doctrine points (mostly regarding Calvinism, b/c well... PCA) - they aren't practical or understandable in many ways when it comes down to the observable ways in which children (people) learn, trust, and grow.

[TenderLovingWillow]

Thank you, 42. I appreciate you approaching it from that perspective. Nothing I say will change minds on theology.

My feeling is (from that perspective) - how can we accurately judge their hearts when our eyes are clouded with our own sin nature? Children are not responsible for their sin as toddlers, why do people set out to judge their hearts so early (0-5 years) and then punish them for their sins?

I just see total-depravity as something that is COMPLETELY unhelpful in a parenting perspective. It's like other hard doctrine points (mostly regarding Calvinism, b/c well... PCA) - they aren't practical or understandable in many ways when it comes down to the observable ways in which children (people) learn, trust, and grow.
Actually, theologically the way I parent stems from my belief in things like total depravity and election. :think

It makes total sense, and really I think is a good representation of grace.

My kids are totally depraved people. :shrug nothing I do or don't do is going to change their "being dead in their trespasses and sins" as Ephesians words is. Any more than anything *I* do is going to change *my* condition. It is all Christ. All of it. Which means I can do a terrible cruddy job, and if God had got them, they are sealed beyond my own attempts to either steal or destroy.

So I look into scripture and read about how we are to treat others, and treat my kids accordingly. When the burden of perfecting them is gone, I can trust completely that he will be faithful to my kids.

I also believe that God will honor the covenant that we have made to him, and be faithful to save my kids. Now I don't think there is a guarantee or anything like that, but I'm trusting that God will save them.

Honestly, I can see that grace in my own FOO, two toxic people raised their kids in an abusive paradigm, BUT they also relied on Christ, loved God, and tried to live according to his word. They don't see it, but God has shown an intense amount of grace to me and my siblings despite everything they did "wrong". I God can do that for us, what will he do with my kids?

*the previous post was my attempt to explain complicated doctrine stuff on less than 3 hours of sleep and no caffeine. It may or may not sortof communicate what I was trying to say.*

[ruhama]

I like that, TLW. I feel that is a MUCH better perspective on it. How I see TD worked out a lot in some parenting circles is the assigning of negative intent and feeling commanded to drive out that sin with punishment (physical or not). That's why I say I don't find that simple form a helpful doctrine in parenting. :)

[Petie]

Ok so with logic of sin being a reason to strike a child then does she believe that when she sins she should be struck? If striking a person is the only effective form of discipline, then adults should be struck as well. If adults don't need to be hit to change their behavior, then why do they assume children need it? Honestly, its because people under estimate the capabilities of children. They believe they are not capable of learning, therefore they must be "trained" in the same manner we train animals, though we now realize that pain is ineffective in training animals, so I guess they assume children are less intelligent than animals. To me, the only logical reason that a person would believe that spanking is necessary is if they feel that children are incapable of learning. If you believe that children are intelligent people capable of learning and independent thought, then spanking becomes unnecessary because you treat them as you would any person who has done wrong.

[TenderLovingWillow]

I like that, TLW. I feel that is a MUCH better perspective on it. How I see TD worked out a lot in some parenting circles is the assigning of negative intent and feeling commanded to drive out that sin with punishment (physical or not). That's why I say I don't find that simple form a helpful doctrine in parenting. :)

It is so so odd to me how many Calvanists swing into a works based doctrine. It leaves me :scratch

Must be the perseverance of the saints bit.. But even that has way more to do with grace than what we accomplish.

But then I see it everywhere, because in our church, which isn't Calvinistic the idea is that you have to punish them while they are young so they will be more likely to choose when they are older. I think it's a human thing to want to force your kid into salvation.

[ruhama]

It is so so odd to me how many Calvanists swing into a works based doctrine. It leaves me :scratch

MEEEEEEE TOO!

For me, beginning this journey, it was because I hadn't examined the connection between theology and parenting. Also there's a lot of "God punishes us" talk around us.

And YOU extrapolate from the "my baby is sinful" idea into what it means about God's nature. I'm talking about the simple "everyone is born essentially evil" idea which TD is often distilled down to - I'd not heard of TD until college but heard that phrase around 7 years old.




Why you guys gotta assume this is a "she"? :giggle ;)

[bolt.]

"The Bible gives me lots of information about how I should be treating the sinners around me. I don't read anywhere that its important for me to be anything other than gentle towards them just because of that!"

[MegMarch]

I do not believe it is possible to punish the love of Christ into anyone. We believe kids can learn to speak and count and tie their shoes with support and encouragement, modeling and allowing repeated tries. It makes sense to me that we can teach other things this way as well. My job is to raise my child, not to save her, and punishment, shame, spanking can't save anyone anyhow.

[twentysixcats]

My mom uses total depravity as a reason to CIO, spank, etc. I really struggled with that when I first started exploring gentle discipline.


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[Hilary316]

I am a Reformed Baptist and so I do believe we are totally depraved and have a sinful nature. But that's exactly why I believe children should be parented gently. I mean, saying a child has a sin nature is like saying a child is a human being. We ALL have a sin nature and are dead apart from Christ, why do I have the right to punish/hit my child just because he/she isnt converted yet? Makes NO sense to me. It really REALLY frustrates me how Reformed Christians are soooo into grace yet with their own children they are some of the most heavy handed I have come across. I dont get it. :/

[ArmsOfLove]

the sin nature is between God and the individual, and He has done a perfectly fine job in taking care of it (with the cross and all). I don't expect I have anything to *add* to that plan - though I do make my children aware of it and raise them with the expectation before them that they will/are in relationship with God because of that :amen

the immediate behavior is between my children and me and I don't over-spiritualize childish behavior. I deal with the behavior, teach, model, correct, etc., and they respond.

Children are born with a sin nature, but they are also born with a desire to be social.

[Hilary316]

I do not believe it is possible to punish the love of Christ into anyone. We believe kids can learn to speak and count and tie their shoes with support and encouragement, modeling and allowing repeated tries. It makes sense to me that we can teach other things this way as well. My job is to raise my child, not to save her, and punishment, shame, spanking can't save anyone anyhow.

^^Yes. This.

[staceylayne]

I'm really appreciating this discussion. :cup

Where I see folks bringing up total depravity in regards to young children is the :rolleyes "there that sin nature right there" response to things like a hungry baby crying (instead of what I'm not sure...tapping mom on the shoulder and asking nicely?? :doh) or a two year old running away with a smile when called to come and other similarly "defiant" and "rebellious" behaviors by little people. It makes me :( and :mad.

[ArmsOfLove]

I think the average person hear "sin nature" and think "God doesn't like what we do" without realizing that God clearly outlined what He does and doesn't like and NONE of it has anything to do with babies crying or jumping on the couch :doh God loves us . . . He loved us so much IN OUR SIN that He died to redeem us. :amen We love Him because He first loved us. If we are supposed to introduce our children to God, shouldn't we lead with the love?

[LilacPhoenix]

:cup

[Eowyn]

Romans 5:8 "...but God demonstrates his love for us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us!" (emphasis added)

The end.

[bolt.]

Another thing to add is that if people believe one of the biggest sins a child can comit is disobedience to patents... Isn't there a very easy way to have that happen less frequently? How about not giving direct commands quite so often? Why would a parent want to offer their child so many opportunities to 'sin' (not that I believe it is sin at young ages)? Doesn't that basically make them into a primary source of temptation? What team do they want to be on?

[silverlining]

I'm really appreciating this discussion. :cup

Where I see folks bringing up total depravity in regards to young children is the :rolleyes "there that sin nature right there" response to things like a hungry baby crying (instead of what I'm not sure...tapping mom on the shoulder and asking nicely?? :doh) or a two year old running away with a smile when called to come and other similarly "defiant" and "rebellious" behaviors by little people. It makes me :( and :mad.

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just :rolleyes4 . My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

[marbles]

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just :rolleyes4 . My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

I've heard this too. And that people who don't believe in total depravity obviously never had kids :( it really just makes no sense. They command, the child "sins", they punish. I know some families like this and I just want to sometimes say "hey, have you ever thought about helping out any??"

[arymanth]

Sin is what happens on the inside, it is not what you do on the outside. If a child wants to hit his brother, but he does not because he is afraid of being punished... you have not dealt with the sin, which is the DESIRE to hurt his brother in the first place. All you have done is kept the sin from being seen on the outside. If you focus on replacing that sin with love, by teaching compassion, empathy, patience, forgiveness, then you are dealing with the sin. Love extinguishes sin the way light banishes darkness. Where there is love, there is no sin, it just cannot exist. The way to deal with sin is to sow LOVE. You cannot do this with punishment.

Christian parents often punish what they see as "sinful behavior" because they think they are making their child more pleasing to God. It might be a good idea to find out what God actually wants from us in the first place. The number one command God gives us is to LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER and he tells us that everything else hangs on these two things, so if you do not LOVE, then nothing else you do means anything. I Cor. 13 tells us that no matter how GOOD your behavior is, if you do not LOVE, it is completely worthless. So if you are making your child behave in a way you believe is pleasing to God, but this behavior is not motivated by love, God is not impressed. You have accomplished NOTHING. So what if he jumps to obey at your every command... if he is not obeying out of love, it is nothing. So what if she never talks back or argues, if the only reason she is "respectful" is because she knows that if she does, you will punish her? This does not please God, either.

If you truly want to make your children pleasing to God, you have to teach them how to love him. Punishments cannot do this. The best way to teach your kids how to love God is to demonstrate his love towards them. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "We love him because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19 "he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." Psalm 103:10


My biggest hang-up when I was learning about gentle discipline was that I could not figure out how to make my kids "not sin" if I was not punishing them. Paul ran into that, too. "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Basically, if God isn't going to punish us, can we just do whatever we want?

Basically, Paul's answer was that because we were set free from the law, we are also free to CHOOSE to obey, not out of fear of punishment, but because of our relationship with Jesus. We learn through building our relationship with Him to make better choices, and when we DO miss the mark, we are told to "come boldly to the throne of Grace to find mercy and help in time of need".

So if we are going to model that relationship to our children, we have to treat THEM the way God treats US. We need to show them how to make good choices, and when they inevitably make poor ones, we extend grace and show them how to fix their mistakes.

THIS is how you deal with the sin nature, you irradiate it with the Love of God. You, as the parent, make love the foundation of your life, to the point that everything you do is directly motivated by your love for God. This is what will draw your child to God, not fear of being punished, but a personal understanding of what it means to be loved so fiercely and unconditionally. We love Him because he first loved us... LIVE God's love to your children. That's all he asks you to do. "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". THIS is the core of the Gospel, this should be the core of every Christian home. If you love, you will not hurt others. If you love, you will not lie. If you love, you will not steal. If you want your kids to act this way, put love into them. " If you LOVE ME, you WILL keep my commands". The love has to come first.

So how does God deal with a sinful nature? With LOVE.

[twentysixcats]

Wow, arymanth, that was really good. I need to ponder on it more, so I can better answer those who challenge my discipline methods.

I remember my high school youth leader saying that if you want proof of original sin/sin nature just look at a newborn baby: sure, they're cute, but there's no more selfish creature in all the world. At the time, it made perfect sense to me. Now, I just :rolleyes4 . My church was not one that advocated harsh treatment of children, but it's easy to see how this mindset can lead to abuse, because we shouldn't let them "get away with it". Babies are babies. They do what they know how to do, and their crying is no more sinful than breathing or sleeping.

My mom firmly believes this. She always says that she doesn't know how people can have kids and not believe in original sin. She talks about things I did as a child that convinced her. :bheart


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[TenderLovingWillow]

My parents have told me that babies are pure selfishness to, because none of it has been trained out yet. :sick

[arymanth]

My parents have told me that babies are pure selfishness to, because none of it has been trained out yet. :sick

The problem with that is, selfishness is knowing how others feel and intentionally deciding you don't care, or you just care about yourself more. A baby CANNOT be selfish, they have no idea that anyone else exists. To a baby, mom is just an extension of himself, like a hand or a foot. Eventually he starts to understand she is separate, but it takes awhile before he can figure out that she has feelings that are separate from his. Then it will be awhile before he develops the skill to be able to see things from another person's perspective. Until I child gets to the point where they can understand that people are separate from themselves, that they have their own feelings, and the ability to put themselves in someone else's place to see things from their point of view, they are not capable of understanding empathy.

If a person does not have the ability to be empathetic, then they are not truly "selfish". They are responding to the world in the only way they can.

The ironic thing is that parents often try to teach a baby to be "unselfish" by behaving in a selfish way towards them by refusing to respond to their cries or meet their need for closeness. If an adult did that to another adult, they would be considered "selfish"... I don't feel like responding to you right now, I have decided your needs are not important enough to earn my attention. I will get to you when I feel like it. You need to learn how to wait. I don't care what you want, you can only have it if I feel like giving it to you.

Think about it, if we can't be generous, selfless, giving, and patient with someone who has no idea how to be these things... just how do we expect them to learn?

I think that the biggest problem is that people don't stop to think these things all the way through to their logical conclusion. They can only see the desired outcome and what they can do to achieve it, not how their methods may otherwise impact their child. You may very well teach a baby not to cry so much by ignoring their cries, and it may look like you have taught them "patience"... but you have also taught them to ignore the cries of others. That is not selflessness, that is indifference.

[ruhama]

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

---------- Post added at 02:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:40 PM ----------

The problem with that is, selfishness is knowing how others feel and intentionally deciding you don't care, or you just care about yourself more. A baby CANNOT be selfish, they have no idea that anyone else exists. To a baby, mom is just an extension of himself, like a hand or a foot. Eventually he starts to understand she is separate, but it takes awhile before he can figure out that she has feelings that are separate from his. Then it will be awhile before he develops the skill to be able to see things from another person's perspective. Until I child gets to the point where they can understand that people are separate from themselves, that they have their own feelings, and the ability to put themselves in someone else's place to see things from their point of view, they are not capable of understanding empathy.

If a person does not have the ability to be empathetic, then they are not truly "selfish". They are responding to the world in the only way they can.

The ironic thing is that parents often try to teach a baby to be "unselfish" by behaving in a selfish way towards them by refusing to respond to their cries or meet their need for closeness. If an adult did that to another adult, they would be considered "selfish"... I don't feel like responding to you right now, I have decided your needs are not important enough to earn my attention. I will get to you when I feel like it. You need to learn how to wait. I don't care what you want, you can only have it if I feel like giving it to you.

Think about it, if we can't be generous, selfless, giving, and patient with someone who has no idea how to be these things... just how do we expect them to learn?

I think that the biggest problem is that people don't stop to think these things all the way through to their logical conclusion. They can only see the desired outcome and what they can do to achieve it, not how their methods may otherwise impact their child. You may very well teach a baby not to cry so much by ignoring their cries, and it may look like you have taught them "patience"... but you have also taught them to ignore the cries of others. That is not selflessness, that is indifference.

:clap

[BarefootBetsy]

Only God's Grace can wash away sins or sin nature. Physical punishment, IME, just increases rebellion and embitters children, which parents are specifically told not to do to their children.

[NavaNessa]

:cup

I believe children are born into a sinful world...but I personally don't believe they are sinning, sinful or are sinners, as that implies them having actually sinned.
What constitutes as sin?
And at what age (which I feel varies depending on the child's level of understanding)?
Example: A toddler who takes a toy from another toddler is NOT a thief, neither are they sinning.
They are in a learning process on how to properly acquire something they want, and it is our job to instruct them in the kind way to do so.

Does this mean children are perfect? No.
But I do believe we are all born innocent, and that we all sin at some point (points)....

[Zooey]

the sin nature is between God and the individual, and He has done a perfectly fine job in taking care of it (with the cross and all). I don't expect I have anything to *add* to that plan - though I do make my children aware of it and raise them with the expectation before them that they will/are in relationship with God because of that :amen

the immediate behavior is between my children and me and I don't over-spiritualize childish behavior. I deal with the behavior, teach, model, correct, etc., and they respond.

Children are born with a sin nature, but they are also born with a desire to be social. What Crystal said.

I think the average person hear "sin nature" and think "God doesn't like what we do" without realizing that God clearly outlined what He does and doesn't like and NONE of it has anything to do with babies crying or jumping on the couch :doh God loves us . . . He loved us so much IN OUR SIN that He died to redeem us. :amen We love Him because He first loved us. If we are supposed to introduce our children to God, shouldn't we lead with the love?
What Crystal said. (We seriously need a "what she said" sign in our otherwise terrific smileies).

I don't like the terminology of "sin nature" & "total depravity". A friend once asked me, very seriously, "How can sin have a nature? Its a thing not a person!", & I realized that saying "original sin" is much more easy to understand & explain. As for TD, I beleive that we are deeply, deeply wounded by original sin, but that we are damaged, not destroyed.
Each & every person is still made in the image of God. There is still that in us that is all the image of our Creator. Otherwise, we would never be able to respond to God's love in the 1st place. That is what I see in a baby: a small person made in the image of God Himself.

[WildFlower]

just subbing because I love all the good replies here and am learning alot

[Hilary316]

Sometimes I wonder if we could have seen Jesus as a child if we would be surprised at how He acted. Would He have done some things that many Christians feel are "sinful" like throw a tantrum, hit his mother as a toddler, ever said No? I think we might all be surprised!

[Auroras mom]

:cup

I believe children are born into a sinful world...but I personally don't believe they are sinning, sinful or are sinners, as that implies them having actually sinned.
What constitutes as sin?
And at what age (which I feel varies depending on the child's level of understanding)?
Example: A toddler who takes a toy from another toddler is NOT a thief, neither are they sinning.
They are in a learning process on how to properly acquire something they want, and it is our job to instruct them in the kind way to do so.

Does this mean children are perfect? No.
But I do believe we are all born innocent, and that we all sin at some point (points)....


This. I truly despise the doctrine of total depravity, as well as the teachings that little babies are sinners. I used to firmly believe it. I remember totally alienating a boyfriend in college b/c I spoke about how his baby niece was such a selfish, wretched sinner (when she did normal, annoying crawler/toddler things). Bleck.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:45 PM ----------

What Crystal said.


What Crystal said. (We seriously need a "what she said" sign in our otherwise terrific smileies).

I don't like the terminology of "sin nature" & "total depravity". A friend once asked me, very seriously, "How can sin have a nature? Its a thing not a person!", & I realized that saying "original sin" is much more easy to understand & explain. As for TD, I beleive that we are deeply, deeply wounded by original sin, but that we are damaged, not destroyed.
Each & every person is still made in the image of God. There is still that in us that is all the image of our Creator. Otherwise, we would never be able to respond to God's love in the 1st place. That is what I see in a baby: a small person made in the image of God Himself.

Amen, amen, amen.

[Hermana Linda]

Sin is what happens on the inside, it is not what you do on the outside. If a child wants to hit his brother, but he does not because he is afraid of being punished... you have not dealt with the sin, which is the DESIRE to hurt his brother in the first place. All you have done is kept the sin from being seen on the outside. If you focus on replacing that sin with love, by teaching compassion, empathy, patience, forgiveness, then you are dealing with the sin. Love extinguishes sin the way light banishes darkness. Where there is love, there is no sin, it just cannot exist. The way to deal with sin is to sow LOVE. You cannot do this with punishment.

Christian parents often punish what they see as "sinful behavior" because they think they are making their child more pleasing to God. It might be a good idea to find out what God actually wants from us in the first place. The number one command God gives us is to LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER and he tells us that everything else hangs on these two things, so if you do not LOVE, then nothing else you do means anything. I Cor. 13 tells us that no matter how GOOD your behavior is, if you do not LOVE, it is completely worthless. So if you are making your child behave in a way you believe is pleasing to God, but this behavior is not motivated by love, God is not impressed. You have accomplished NOTHING. So what if he jumps to obey at your every command... if he is not obeying out of love, it is nothing. So what if she never talks back or argues, if the only reason she is "respectful" is because she knows that if she does, you will punish her? This does not please God, either.

If you truly want to make your children pleasing to God, you have to teach them how to love him. Punishments cannot do this. The best way to teach your kids how to love God is to demonstrate his love towards them. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." "We love him because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19 "he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities." Psalm 103:10


My biggest hang-up when I was learning about gentle discipline was that I could not figure out how to make my kids "not sin" if I was not punishing them. Paul ran into that, too. "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?" Basically, if God isn't going to punish us, can we just do whatever we want?

Basically, Paul's answer was that because we were set free from the law, we are also free to CHOOSE to obey, not out of fear of punishment, but because of our relationship with Jesus. We learn through building our relationship with Him to make better choices, and when we DO miss the mark, we are told to "come boldly to the throne of Grace to find mercy and help in time of need".

So if we are going to model that relationship to our children, we have to treat THEM the way God treats US. We need to show them how to make good choices, and when they inevitably make poor ones, we extend grace and show them how to fix their mistakes.

THIS is how you deal with the sin nature, you irradiate it with the Love of God. You, as the parent, make love the foundation of your life, to the point that everything you do is directly motivated by your love for God. This is what will draw your child to God, not fear of being punished, but a personal understanding of what it means to be loved so fiercely and unconditionally. We love Him because he first loved us... LIVE God's love to your children. That's all he asks you to do. "Love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself". THIS is the core of the Gospel, this should be the core of every Christian home. If you love, you will not hurt others. If you love, you will not lie. If you love, you will not steal. If you want your kids to act this way, put love into them. " If you LOVE ME, you WILL keep my commands". The love has to come first.

So how does God deal with a sinful nature? With LOVE.

...
The problem with that is, selfishness is knowing how others feel and intentionally deciding you don't care, or you just care about yourself more. A baby CANNOT be selfish, they have no idea that anyone else exists. To a baby, mom is just an extension of himself, like a hand or a foot. Eventually he starts to understand she is separate, but it takes awhile before he can figure out that she has feelings that are separate from his. Then it will be awhile before he develops the skill to be able to see things from another person's perspective. Until I child gets to the point where they can understand that people are separate from themselves, that they have their own feelings, and the ability to put themselves in someone else's place to see things from their point of view, they are not capable of understanding empathy.

If a person does not have the ability to be empathetic, then they are not truly "selfish". They are responding to the world in the only way they can.

The ironic thing is that parents often try to teach a baby to be "unselfish" by behaving in a selfish way towards them by refusing to respond to their cries or meet their need for closeness. If an adult did that to another adult, they would be considered "selfish"... I don't feel like responding to you right now, I have decided your needs are not important enough to earn my attention. I will get to you when I feel like it. You need to learn how to wait. I don't care what you want, you can only have it if I feel like giving it to you.

Think about it, if we can't be generous, selfless, giving, and patient with someone who has no idea how to be these things... just how do we expect them to learn?

I think that the biggest problem is that people don't stop to think these things all the way through to their logical conclusion. They can only see the desired outcome and what they can do to achieve it, not how their methods may otherwise impact their child. You may very well teach a baby not to cry so much by ignoring their cries, and it may look like you have taught them "patience"... but you have also taught them to ignore the cries of others. That is not selflessness, that is indifference.

This is fantastic! Do/will you have it on a blog somewhere that I can link to? If not, can we talk?

[HadassahSukkot]

Sometimes I wonder if we could have seen Jesus as a child if we would be surprised at how He acted. Would He have done some things that many Christians feel are "sinful" like throw a tantrum, hit his mother as a toddler, ever said No? I think we might all be surprised!
I have wondered this myself.

[rjy9343]

I think that people who do not believe in sin nature do not have kids. Otherwise they would have seen the appalling sin nature that comes out when their child does not sleep, does not comply or other really irritating behavior.

[saturnfire16]

Sometimes I wonder if we could have seen Jesus as a child if we would be surprised at how He acted. Would He have done some things that many Christians feel are "sinful" like throw a tantrum, hit his mother as a toddler, ever said No? I think we might all be surprised!

I said this at a Bible study one time. Something like, "I can just imagine baby Jesus crying for his mom and hitting his brother."

That particular crowd was :shrug3 at the crying, but :jawdrop :hunh at that thought of toddler Jesus HITTING someone! :lol

[arymanth]

Just a few more thoughts. :) I was talking with my friend about this, and I kept going back to what Paul was talking about when he said AFTER "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

What is the answer to sin and how to we transmit it to our kids? The Bible says

"but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1: 14-15

The problem is in WHAT WE WANT. We sin because we are going after something we want. The key to changing our nature is to find a way to CHANGE WHAT WE WANT. It is like what you do as a parent when you are learning to control your own frustration and impatience, you have to focus on how much you LOVE your child, and not how much you want them to be less difficult. When your focus is on LOVE, it changes how you respond. Human nature is essentially self-centered. The natural man wants to find ways to make himself happy. It is not always natural to want to help others or make them happy. That is the part of us that is like God, but the other side of our nature is constantly at war with this.

The more we focus on God, getting to know him, loving him, the more HIS desires become OUR desires. His goals become our goals. If we are actively pursuing a relationship with God, it is very difficult for sin to get any hold in our lives, because the only way sin can get in is if we WANT something we shouldn't want. You have to have a desire for sin before it can do anything to effect your behavior. If a man is so deeply in love with his wife, he is not going to be thinking about wanting another woman, not even in his heart... and where there is no desire, there is no sin.

So how do we translate this to our kids? Well for one thing, it does no good to tell a small child that having desires are wrong. They are not. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy. The problem is in how you go about making yourself happy. So showing kids how to meet their own needs in appropriate ways leads them AWAY from sin. Sin is just trying to make yourself happy in inappropriate ways. Hitting your brother because you can't have his toy is an effort to get the toy to make yourself happy. Showing a child how to share, how to take turns, how to ask nicely, and even how to be content with something else for awhile are all ways to "turn off" sin. If they are getting their need met, where is the desire to hit their brother going to come from? Sometimes it is going to take TIME for them to learn, because of their own immaturity. Teaching a child how to find better ways to get what they want/need is not going to happen overnight, but if you are sowing gentleness and patience into them by your own behavior, then it WILL happen eventually.

Using impatience, frustration and even anger to correct a child sows all of those things into them and teaches them that the proper way to respond to someone who does something you don't like is with frustration, impatience and anger. You reap what you sow. If you have a frustrated toddler, you want to give him the ANTIDOTE to anger, not feed it with your own. The antidote to anger is patience and love.

"Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Changing the way you think about things changes who you are and how you respond. So how you renew the mind of a toddler??? "Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up." Deut. 6:7 Show them by HOW YOU LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE how to respond to things in theirs. The best way to teach is to be an example of what you are trying to teach. Love is attractive, it garners respect and honor. When a child lives with an adult who is consistently living the way God wants them to live, they EARN that child's respect simply because of WHO THEY ARE.

We have gotten a backwards view of this from too many teachers who tried to insist that children need to honor their parents FIRST, that parents were to DEMAND honor from their children... instead of focusing on BEING SOMEONE HONORABLE YOURSELF.

If you want your kids to turn away from sin, you have to give them something valuable to substitute for the wrong things they want. If you are angry and frustrated and miserable and stressed out... what is there to want to imitate there? Who wants to be like that?

If you focus on your OWN relationship with God and dealing with your OWN areas of sin in your life... you will automatically become a beacon in that area. This is why God says "First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." Matt. 7:5 and "if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." Matt. 15:14

If you can't figure out how to deal with the sin in your own life, you will never be able to help your children deal with theirs.

As a parent, the best way to deal with sin nature in our children is to FIRST deal with the sin nature in ourselves. Then, as we master sin in different areas of our lives, we can share what we have learned with our children in a HUMBLE way. "if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted"

If you see your child getting caught up in sin (the desire to get something they shouldn't have or getting what they want/need the wrong way) you should restore them (correct and steer them in the right direction) GENTLY, always being aware that you are not above falling for the same type of temptation yourself, and are really no "better" than your child.


Demonstrate God's love and how to conquer the desire to sin in your own life, stay humble, be patient. Sin doesn't stand a chance.

[marbles]

I think something that people on the total depravity side forget is that God only holds us responsible for the things he has given us. Children have little to no knowledge of God and are not capable of understanding Him. He says all over the place that he has different "standards" for different people (his standards don't really change, but he meets people where they are) like teachers, parents, children, priests, those who have much and those who have little. So we can't expect children to live according to standards they don't know.
On the other side of that is the parable about the debtors. We have been forgiven much, we shouldn't go demanding a few pennies.

[twentysixcats]

I think something that people on the total depravity side forget is that God only holds us responsible for the things he has given us. Children have little to no knowledge of God and are not capable of understanding Him. He says all over the place that he has different "standards" for different people (his standards don't really change, but he meets people where they are) like teachers, parents, children, priests, those who have much and those who have little. So we can't expect children to live according to standards they don't know.
On the other side of that is the parable about the debtors. We have been forgiven much, we shouldn't go demanding a few pennies.

Yes! Back when I was first questioning methods of discipline, I wondered why the parable of the debtors didn't apply... and now that I'm on this side of it, I think it is a beautiful way to view our relationship with our children.

[NavaNessa]

Just a few more thoughts. :) I was talking with my friend about this, and I kept going back to what Paul was talking about when he said AFTER "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

What is the answer to sin and how to we transmit it to our kids? The Bible says

"but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1: 14-15

The problem is in WHAT WE WANT. We sin because we are going after something we want. The key to changing our nature is to find a way to CHANGE WHAT WE WANT. It is like what you do as a parent when you are learning to control your own frustration and impatience, you have to focus on how much you LOVE your child, and not how much you want them to be less difficult. When your focus is on LOVE, it changes how you respond. Human nature is essentially self-centered. The natural man wants to find ways to make himself happy. It is not always natural to want to help others or make them happy. That is the part of us that is like God, but the other side of our nature is constantly at war with this.

The more we focus on God, getting to know him, loving him, the more HIS desires become OUR desires. His goals become our goals. If we are actively pursuing a relationship with God, it is very difficult for sin to get any hold in our lives, because the only way sin can get in is if we WANT something we shouldn't want. You have to have a desire for sin before it can do anything to effect your behavior. If a man is so deeply in love with his wife, he is not going to be thinking about wanting another woman, not even in his heart... and where there is no desire, there is no sin.

So how do we translate this to our kids? Well for one thing, it does no good to tell a small child that having desires are wrong. They are not. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy. The problem is in how you go about making yourself happy. So showing kids how to meet their own needs in appropriate ways leads them AWAY from sin. Sin is just trying to make yourself happy in inappropriate ways. Hitting your brother because you can't have his toy is an effort to get the toy to make yourself happy. Showing a child how to share, how to take turns, how to ask nicely, and even how to be content with something else for awhile are all ways to "turn off" sin. If they are getting their need met, where is the desire to hit their brother going to come from? Sometimes it is going to take TIME for them to learn, because of their own immaturity. Teaching a child how to find better ways to get what they want/need is not going to happen overnight, but if you are sowing gentleness and patience into them by your own behavior, then it WILL happen eventually.

Using impatience, frustration and even anger to correct a child sows all of those things into them and teaches them that the proper way to respond to someone who does something you don't like is with frustration, impatience and anger. You reap what you sow. If you have a frustrated toddler, you want to give him the ANTIDOTE to anger, not feed it with your own. The antidote to anger is patience and love.

"Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Changing the way you think about things changes who you are and how you respond. So how you renew the mind of a toddler??? "Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up." Deut. 6:7 Show them by HOW YOU LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE how to respond to things in theirs. The best way to teach is to be an example of what you are trying to teach. Love is attractive, it garners respect and honor. When a child lives with an adult who is consistently living the way God wants them to live, they EARN that child's respect simply because of WHO THEY ARE.

We have gotten a backwards view of this from too many teachers who tried to insist that children need to honor their parents FIRST, that parents were to DEMAND honor from their children... instead of focusing on BEING SOMEONE HONORABLE YOURSELF.

If you want your kids to turn away from sin, you have to give them something valuable to substitute for the wrong things they want. If you are angry and frustrated and miserable and stressed out... what is there to want to imitate there? Who wants to be like that?

If you focus on your OWN relationship with God and dealing with your OWN areas of sin in your life... you will automatically become a beacon in that area. This is why God says "First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." Matt. 7:5 and "if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." Matt. 15:14

If you can't figure out how to deal with the sin in your own life, you will never be able to help your children deal with theirs.

As a parent, the best way to deal with sin nature in our children is to FIRST deal with the sin nature in ourselves. Then, as we master sin in different areas of our lives, we can share what we have learned with our children in a HUMBLE way. "if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted"

If you see your child getting caught up in sin (the desire to get something they shouldn't have or getting what they want/need the wrong way) you should restore them (correct and steer them in the right direction) GENTLY, always being aware that you are not above falling for the same type of temptation yourself, and are really no "better" than your child.


Demonstrate God's love and how to conquer the desire to sin in your own life, stay humble, be patient. Sin doesn't stand a chance.


THIS!! Amazing. Thank you for this. It's what I wish I could formulate the words for when speaking to others :yes

[TenderLovingWillow]

Please tell me you have a blog, or would allow someone to post that as a guest blog..

Both replies.

Those are oh.my.word mind blowing. Really. If they are in blog form I will totally share it on FB. Like right now. :shifty

[DaraSKS]

I guess if sin would be in the blood then pro-spankers would have a point because really...the only way to control it in a child so young that they have no "self-regulation" yet would actually be to put fear in them and just "control" them. Having no self-regulation, limited cognitive abilities and only a propensity to sin...I'd imagine that'd make them horrific to deal with!

What we do with gentle parenting agrees more with the concept that they are "made in the image of God." It's why we can trust that they're not manipulating us or attempting to gratify some "wrong" urge when they cry for us. It's why we can trust our hearts and our instincts because God made our bodies to tell us the truth about what's right with our children. Our kids don't want to be bad. They don't want to be separate from us. And, we feel horrible when we do wrong things with them. It's because our bodies don't lie. (Lie detector tests work because our bodies negatively react when we commit the sin of lying, for example.)

Perhaps rather than fitting "not spanking" into the idea of "original sin" it may be worth it to reconsider that whole doctrine. The ancient Jews (who were writing the Bible) didn't believe in that...and still don't. I just made a Jewish friend this year and she'd never even heard of the concept and thought it was strange. The idea that we're "born" sinful is something that came from outside the Bible and got put in later...particularly in the new versions of the Bible things have been reworded.

Sorry if that's...argumentative?! I don't know if I'm allowed to comment like this or not!? It's a topic I love though because of my favorite verse (Romans 1:18-20) so I couldn't resist!!! :)

[TenderLovingWillow]

I guess if sin would be in the blood then pro-spankers would have a point because really...the only way to control it in a child so young that they have no "self-regulation" yet would actually be to put fear in them and just "control" them. Having no self-regulation, limited cognitive abilities and only a propensity to sin...I'd imagine that'd make them horrific to deal with!

What we do with gentle parenting agrees more with the concept that they are "made in the image of God." It's why we can trust that they're not manipulating us or attempting to gratify some "wrong" urge when they cry for us. It's why we can trust our hearts and our instincts because God made our bodies to tell us the truth about what's right with our children. Our kids don't want to be bad. They don't want to be separate from us. And, we feel horrible when we do wrong things with them. It's because our bodies don't lie. (Lie detector tests work because our bodies negatively react when we commit the sin of lying, for example.)

Perhaps rather than fitting "not spanking" into the idea of "original sin" it may be worth it to reconsider that whole doctrine. The ancient Jews (who were writing the Bible) didn't believe in that...and still don't. I just made a Jewish friend this year and she'd never even heard of the concept and thought it was strange. The idea that we're "born" sinful is something that came from outside the Bible and got put in later...particularly in the new versions of the Bible things have been reworded.

Sorry if that's...argumentative?! I don't know if I'm allowed to comment like this or not!? It's a topic I love though because of my favorite verse (Romans 1:18-20) so I couldn't resist!!! :)

As long as you are not posting outside of the Statement of Beliefs, we have lots of great, edifying conversations here. :hug

[Scox2003]

I believe children are born capable of sin, but are not born sinful. Like infants, they don't sin. They can't. Their brains just don't allow them to despite what many Christians believe. They cry because that's how God created them to communicate. This is not manipulation. It's just how they work.

As they become toddlers, they have big emotions. Of course, this is how God created children to develop. But since they truly lack vocabulary and impulse control, they don't always handle their big feelings appropriately. Yes, they sin. But they don't mean to. They don't even understand what sin is yet. This is where gentle discipline comes in. Discipline teaches them skills and appropriate behavior. It's grace. Because Jesus died for all our sins, we live under grace!

Spanking/hitting does the opposite of discipline because it teaches fear. But 2 Timothy 1:7 says that fear is not from God. Fear ends up planting sin into the child's heart because they quickly learn to do things to avoid punishment. They learn to hide their sins whenever possible to avoid being hit. God cares about the motives of our hearts. So, if we just do things to avoid punishment, I believe that that may be part of sin. We should do things because it is right and because we truly love and respect God & other people. Gentle discipline teaches children how to do this over time. And it teaches God's grace and love for them. Making them want to come to Christ and have a relationship with Him. Yes, spanked/hit children may come to Christ, but they tend to struggle in their relationship with Him and others.

Also, adults sin soooo much more than children do. It's like the parable of the unmercifully servant. The king forgave the servant a huge debt. Then the servant turns around and holds his servant accountable for a much smaller debt. So it isn't fair when adults make children pay for their sin by spanking/hitting them or sending them to time-out instead of extending grace to them and disciplining them appropriately.

Hope this helps. :)

[Hermana Linda]

Also, adults sin soooo much more than children do. It's like the parable of the unmercifully servant. The king forgave the servant a huge debt. Then the servant turns around and holds his servant accountable for a much smaller debt. So it isn't fair when adults make children pay for their sin by spanking/hitting them or sending them to time-out instead of extending grace to them and disciplining them appropriately.


Great point, Steph! Is this in your book? :think

[Zooey]

I said this at a Bible study one time. Something like, "I can just imagine baby Jesus crying for his mom and hitting his brother."

That particular crowd was :shrug3 at the crying, but :jawdrop :hunh at that thought of toddler Jesus HITTING someone! :lol
I think that this idea is upsetting to those who interpret all that children do (which they don';t want them doing) as being sinful.
But of course, what it really is showing is that children are simply being children.

I think something that people on the total depravity side forget is that God only holds us responsible for the things he has given us. Children have little to no knowledge of God and are not capable of understanding Him. He says all over the place that he has different "standards" for different people (his standards don't really change, but he meets people where they are) like teachers, parents, children, priests, those who have much and those who have little. So we can't expect children to live according to standards they don't know.
On the other side of that is the parable about the debtors. We have been forgiven much, we shouldn't go demanding a few pennies.
This. Especially:rockon the part I bolded.

[HadassahSukkot]

...The ancient Jews (who were writing the Bible) didn't believe in that...and still don't. I just made a Jewish friend this year and she'd never even heard of the concept and thought it was strange. The idea that we're "born" sinful is something that came from outside the Bible and got put in later...particularly in the new versions of the Bible things have been reworded.

Sorry if that's...argumentative?! I don't know if I'm allowed to comment like this or not!? It's a topic I love though because of my favorite verse (Romans 1:18-20) so I couldn't resist!!! :)
I believe you can discuss that considering we have a lot of Messianic Jews and Gentiles here. :shrug3 I don't think it's argumentative to point that out when you've done it as amicably as you have here.

I was flabbergasted when I found that out. I had asked a couple people I knew that were not really religious and raised reform and they'd never heard of the concept until they had kids and were in church with them. :jawdrop :hunh So I did more digging and the model in the Orthodox and Conservative community goes one of 3 ways, GBD type; permissive-ish; very authoritarian minus the spanking aspect.

So it really makes me wonder where and how this fearful "must beat the child = discipline" idea came about... in a sort of morbid curiosity that I'm not ready to quite deal with. :shifty We have a background that has broad brushes of FotF's Dobson, Gothard, Tripp and Pearl-types iykwim - so... I'm not ready to go there yet.

---------- Post added at 04:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:03 PM ----------

I believe children are born capable of sin, but are not born sinful. Like infants, they don't sin. They can't. Their brains just don't allow them to despite what many Christians believe. They cry because that's how God created them to communicate. This is not manipulation. It's just how they work.

As they become toddlers, they have big emotions. Of course, this is how God created children to develop. But since they truly lack vocabulary and impulse control, they don't always handle their big feelings appropriately. Yes, they sin. But they don't mean to. They don't even understand what sin is yet. This is where gentle discipline comes in. Discipline teaches them skills and appropriate behavior. It's grace. Because Jesus died for all our sins, we live under grace!

Spanking/hitting does the opposite of discipline because it teaches fear. But 2 Timothy 1:7 says that fear is not from God. Fear ends up planting sin into the child's heart because they quickly learn to do things to avoid punishment. They learn to hide their sins whenever possible to avoid being hit. God cares about the motives of our hearts. So, if we just do things to avoid punishment, I believe that that may be part of sin. We should do things because it is right and because we truly love and respect God & other people. Gentle discipline teaches children how to do this over time. And it teaches God's grace and love for them. Making them want to come to Christ and have a relationship with Him. Yes, spanked/hit children may come to Christ, but they tend to struggle in their relationship with Him and others.

Also, adults sin soooo much more than children do. It's like the parable of the unmercifully servant. The king forgave the servant a huge debt. Then the servant turns around and holds his servant accountable for a much smaller debt. So it isn't fair when adults make children pay for their sin by spanking/hitting them or sending them to time-out instead of extending grace to them and disciplining them appropriately.

Hope this helps. :)
:yes :clap

[bentlaj11]

Just a few more thoughts. :) I was talking with my friend about this, and I kept going back to what Paul was talking about when he said AFTER "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase?"

What is the answer to sin and how to we transmit it to our kids? The Bible says

"but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." James 1: 14-15

The problem is in WHAT WE WANT. We sin because we are going after something we want. The key to changing our nature is to find a way to CHANGE WHAT WE WANT. It is like what you do as a parent when you are learning to control your own frustration and impatience, you have to focus on how much you LOVE your child, and not how much you want them to be less difficult. When your focus is on LOVE, it changes how you respond. Human nature is essentially self-centered. The natural man wants to find ways to make himself happy. It is not always natural to want to help others or make them happy. That is the part of us that is like God, but the other side of our nature is constantly at war with this.

The more we focus on God, getting to know him, loving him, the more HIS desires become OUR desires. His goals become our goals. If we are actively pursuing a relationship with God, it is very difficult for sin to get any hold in our lives, because the only way sin can get in is if we WANT something we shouldn't want. You have to have a desire for sin before it can do anything to effect your behavior. If a man is so deeply in love with his wife, he is not going to be thinking about wanting another woman, not even in his heart... and where there is no desire, there is no sin.

So how do we translate this to our kids? Well for one thing, it does no good to tell a small child that having desires are wrong. They are not. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be happy. The problem is in how you go about making yourself happy. So showing kids how to meet their own needs in appropriate ways leads them AWAY from sin. Sin is just trying to make yourself happy in inappropriate ways. Hitting your brother because you can't have his toy is an effort to get the toy to make yourself happy. Showing a child how to share, how to take turns, how to ask nicely, and even how to be content with something else for awhile are all ways to "turn off" sin. If they are getting their need met, where is the desire to hit their brother going to come from? Sometimes it is going to take TIME for them to learn, because of their own immaturity. Teaching a child how to find better ways to get what they want/need is not going to happen overnight, but if you are sowing gentleness and patience into them by your own behavior, then it WILL happen eventually.

Using impatience, frustration and even anger to correct a child sows all of those things into them and teaches them that the proper way to respond to someone who does something you don't like is with frustration, impatience and anger. You reap what you sow. If you have a frustrated toddler, you want to give him the ANTIDOTE to anger, not feed it with your own. The antidote to anger is patience and love.

"Be not conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind". Changing the way you think about things changes who you are and how you respond. So how you renew the mind of a toddler??? "Repeat them again and again to your children. Talk about them when you are at home and when you are on the road, when you are going to bed and when you are getting up." Deut. 6:7 Show them by HOW YOU LIVE YOUR OWN LIFE how to respond to things in theirs. The best way to teach is to be an example of what you are trying to teach. Love is attractive, it garners respect and honor. When a child lives with an adult who is consistently living the way God wants them to live, they EARN that child's respect simply because of WHO THEY ARE.

We have gotten a backwards view of this from too many teachers who tried to insist that children need to honor their parents FIRST, that parents were to DEMAND honor from their children... instead of focusing on BEING SOMEONE HONORABLE YOURSELF.

If you want your kids to turn away from sin, you have to give them something valuable to substitute for the wrong things they want. If you are angry and frustrated and miserable and stressed out... what is there to want to imitate there? Who wants to be like that?

If you focus on your OWN relationship with God and dealing with your OWN areas of sin in your life... you will automatically become a beacon in that area. This is why God says "First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend's eye." Matt. 7:5 and "if one blind person guides another, they will both fall into a ditch." Matt. 15:14

If you can't figure out how to deal with the sin in your own life, you will never be able to help your children deal with theirs.

As a parent, the best way to deal with sin nature in our children is to FIRST deal with the sin nature in ourselves. Then, as we master sin in different areas of our lives, we can share what we have learned with our children in a HUMBLE way. "if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted"

If you see your child getting caught up in sin (the desire to get something they shouldn't have or getting what they want/need the wrong way) you should restore them (correct and steer them in the right direction) GENTLY, always being aware that you are not above falling for the same type of temptation yourself, and are really no "better" than your child.


Demonstrate God's love and how to conquer the desire to sin in your own life, stay humble, be patient. Sin doesn't stand a chance.

Thank you! :heart I, very much needed to hear this! :cry2

[Hermana Linda]

In case anyone wants an easy way to share arymanth's very insightful comments without sharing this site, here is her blog (http://theshepherdsapprentice.blogspot.com/). :sillygrin