Spanking working with Christians vs. not

[Hilary316]

Alright, Im going to try to hash this out. Sorry if it doesnt make sense!

Most of us have read the research articles about spanking and physical punishment and how damaging it is to children. Why do most Christians not acknowledge this? Ive heard it said from pastors that it's because "the world" is always going to go against what God's Word teaches. Well, that's not always the case. Research affirms the Bible's teachings in many instances (monogomous marriage with one man and one woman being best for children, for example). Why do Christians not listen to the research against it? I dont understand that.

And also, along that same line, IF spanking is so bad, why are the effects not seen in Christian circles? I dont know a single Christian parent IRL that doesnt spank, unfortunately. Even those parents with older children who were spanked when younger, well, they are very well rounded, kind, and polite children or adults now. Why are the bad effects of spanking rarely seen in Christian circles? Is there really a difference in "spanking in anger" and spanking when you are calm and go through the SACH mantra?

Its one thing my DH and I were discussing earlier. I CANT spank "the right way." In desperation in the past, I have tried it and it just makes me angry, my heart starts racing, I get frustrated, I feel HUGE amounts of guilt.... Why do other Christians I know not feel this way? It's just inconceivable how you can spank a child and not feel terrible about it afterwards and say that God wants you to do that.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense.... Just something Ive been thinking about... :/

[WildFlower]

I think there are bad effects from spanking all around no matter christian or not. They may "look" well rounded and polite. But why? Because they have been trained that they HAVE to do alot of things. The effects may be different than with non-christians or those who spank out of anger. But there are still bad effects. I was only spanked sporadically and I do feel I turned out pretty well. BUT now I am discovering that I do have alot baggage from my FOO and even probably from spanking.

[nanookmama]

I think we *do* have evidence of the negative effects of spanking within the 'walls' of Christendom. :shrug3

What is the current percentage of kids who leave the church?
What is the current percentage of kids in Christian homes having sex before they even graduate from high school?
What is the current percentage of parents who choose to spank even though they've heard the research, know how it feels to be spanked, and know how excruciating it is to administer the spanking?

Spanking teaches us to have an unhealthy, misunderstood relationship with our feelings. Spanking teaches us about avoiding punishment but does nothing to impact our internal motivation. I see evidence of that in many churches.

Unfortunately, there are some sins that the larger church culture has whitewashed. Gossip being the first one that comes to mind. Instead of learning empathy, we learn as children that those who deviate from normal/expected/accepted should be punished. As adults, we gossip and ostracize. "If that teen had sex she is used and her sex life with her husband would have been MUCH better if she had waited." We know none of that is true but we're going to tell our teenagers that. Shame, shame shame. Make 'em feel bad! But that doesn't affect behavior. Not helpfully. And so we have the consequences.

I am too tired to know if that was coherent, sorry.

[ArmsOfLove]

IF spanking is so bad, why are the effects not seen in Christian circles?Oh, goodness, they are everywhere! They are in counseling sessions, and meeting with divorce attorneys, and doing their best to get through the day. They are on anti-depressants, and anti-anxieties, and sitting in addiction support groups. They are spanking fetishists, and people who embrace domestic discipline . . .

Is spanking the only reason? Sometimes. Not always. But there are definitely effects that people are dealing with all around you . . . .even if they were hit enough to learn to stuff it all down where you can't see.

I also know many pagans and atheists who either left the church or want nothing to do with/hear from it because of how children are treated within the walls of Christendom.

[Kiara.I]

Why do Christians not listen to the research against it? I dont understand that.

Well, you explained it. Lots of people have bought into that "it's from the WORLD" line.

And also, along that same line, IF spanking is so bad, why are the effects not seen in Christian circles? I dont know a single Christian parent IRL that doesnt spank, unfortunately. Even those parents with older children who were spanked when younger, well, they are very well rounded, kind, and polite children or adults now. Why are the bad effects of spanking rarely seen in Christian circles? Is there really a difference in "spanking in anger" and spanking when you are calm and go through the SACH mantra?

They're often polite and well-rounded, yes. But emotional and spiritual ill-health is *rampant* in the church. So "polite and well-rounded" isn't necessarily the end-point we should be aiming for. ;) (As a side-goal, I think it's great, but it's NOT my primary goal for what my children will be like as adults, you know?)

Its one thing my DH and I were discussing earlier. I CANT spank "the right way." In desperation in the past, I have tried it and it just makes me angry, my heart starts racing, I get frustrated, I feel HUGE amounts of guilt.... Why do other Christians I know not feel this way? It's just inconceivable how you can spank a child and not feel terrible about it afterwards and say that God wants you to do that.

Different personality types. :shrug3 Some people are more affected by the emotional impact, whereas others will be more focused on the mechanics of what they're doing (as an overall practice--I'm doing this because of x, and to achieve y...)

[MegMarch]

I was thinking a few days ago about how handy the "the world is opposed to us, oh noes, they're taking away my spanks!" bit is as a response to research. I hear Christians talk about not trusting your emotions because the fall has messed that up for us. Intuition isn't ok. The fall, you know. So we must trust logic because God is a God of order and reason. (No concern that our logic may also be a casualty to the fall of course:no) BUT when reason and order of research are applied to spanking it's the big bad world trying to ruin everything with sissy feelings-oriented parenting.

So ok. That's out of my system now.

Those well-adjusted Christians who were spanked... a lot of them grew up in pretty good homes. Stable, parents who cared, sent to school with expectations of reasonable success. Not perfect and definitely there were problems. But enough basics to set them up to get along for life.

And I went to college with them. I'm friends with them. I saw rebellion. Pregnancy concerns and eating disorders. Kids afraid of their parents. I'm one of them. I've got my own stuff. I love my parents but I have my own stuff. I can look pretty good in their family photos and I'm certainly not ruined for eternity and unable to function but there's a lot I wish was different and a good bit of that comes from punitive parenting.

We hide the problems. Don't admit them. Medicate them. Deal with them in therapy and with prayer. There aren't a lot of altar calls for "if your parents spanked you right and you are broken from it, come on down and we'll pray together."

[ThreeKids]

Christians who spank can have a lot of good qualities. On the topic of coercion, though, they tend to have compromised with worldly ways. We've seen the love for war and the love for coercion done on their behalf by the state. But these things are seen as normal within many Christian communities so they won't see compromises that lead them to those values as a negative effect.

If you were to point out those compromised values as a negative effect, it couldn't be a convincing argument to them because they have accepted those compromised values as right. The Holy Spirit can break through that paradigm, though.

[twentysixcats]

I think there are many values of mainstream Christian culture that can lead to spanking appearing successful, and children growing up and spanking their own children.

- Emphasis on APPEARANCE. Children are raised to believe that outward behavior is the most important (being spanked until you are "sweet enough"). Being told that you are an example to all the lost souls out there and need to be pro-Jesus all the time.

- Taught to honor your parents above all. Disagreeing with them may seem dishonoring, especially if you otherwise love your parents and had a happy childhood.

- Sometimes being discouraged to question, or questions being answered with "we can't know the mysteries of God". Not that everything can be answered, but I don't think there is enough value placed on truly wrestling with something.

- Being told that spanking is GOD'S plan. We don't want to go against GOD do we? I mean, the BIBLE says to spank. And we follow the Bible no matter what (going back to the previous point, about not questioning enough). In some ways, we are raised with the idea of being "in the world but not of the world" - so we can appear different, and it's easier to accept that what secular research has proven negative (spanking) somehow doesn't apply to us or we'll do it anyway.

- It's a Catch-22 cycle... because of the emphasis on spanking, there is nothing done to fill your toolbox with other tools. And because you have no other tools, you resort to spanking. And all the people you look up to - pastors, elders, Sunday School teachers, mentors - all spanked, and they are telling you to spank, and at the end of the day without a community like GCM you might just say maybe you were wrong after all to question something so clearly biblical and by questioning you are dishonoring your parents and being a bad witness to the non-Christians out there and now they'll never be saved because your kids were bad in the store.

Not sure if that makes sense, just thoughts I had.

[Auroras mom]

Alright, Im going to try to hash this out. Sorry if it doesnt make sense!

Most of us have read the research articles about spanking and physical punishment and how damaging it is to children. Why do most Christians not acknowledge this? Ive heard it said from pastors that it's because "the world" is always going to go against what God's Word teaches. Well, that's not always the case. Research affirms the Bible's teachings in many instances (monogomous marriage with one man and one woman being best for children, for example). Why do Christians not listen to the research against it? I dont understand that.

And also, along that same line, IF spanking is so bad, why are the effects not seen in Christian circles? I dont know a single Christian parent IRL that doesnt spank, unfortunately. Even those parents with older children who were spanked when younger, well, they are very well rounded, kind, and polite children or adults now. Why are the bad effects of spanking rarely seen in Christian circles? Is there really a difference in "spanking in anger" and spanking when you are calm and go through the SACH mantra?

Its one thing my DH and I were discussing earlier. I CANT spank "the right way." In desperation in the past, I have tried it and it just makes me angry, my heart starts racing, I get frustrated, I feel HUGE amounts of guilt.... Why do other Christians I know not feel this way? It's just inconceivable how you can spank a child and not feel terrible about it afterwards and say that God wants you to do that.

Sorry if this doesnt make sense.... Just something Ive been thinking about... :/

I don't know why in the world you would assume that there are no ill effects of the spanking and punitive and adversarial measures being taken in those homes. You cannot possibly read their heqrts, know their feelings about themselves, their ability to trust others, their ability to form sound attachments, their ability to healthily deal with sadness and nager, their status re: drug use/depression/self-destructive behaviors, and you certainly cannot predict their futrue - which is where most evidence becomes apparent, in the college years and beyond.

People don't see the right things most of the time. They are looking for "easy" - the child who is polite, obeys quickly, questions nothing, and stays out of trouble. That's not always a healthy person being made.

We have had several young women come to this board saying what fabulous childhoods they had, how wonderful their relationships were with their parents, even w/ the spanking, or in fact because of the spanking/authoritarian parenting, only to have them a couple fo years later realize how harmful and detrimental that parenting style was to their emotional wellbeing.

[Hilary316]

I was thinking a few days ago about how handy the "the world is opposed to us, oh noes, they're taking away my spanks!" bit is as a response to research. I hear Christians talk about not trusting your emotions because the fall has messed that up for us. Intuition isn't ok. The fall, you know. So we must trust logic because God is a God of order and reason. (No concern that our logic may also be a casualty to the fall of course:no) BUT when reason and order of research are applied to spanking it's the big bad world trying to ruin everything with sissy feelings-oriented parenting.

Yes, exactly.... I feel I have no Christian friends to talk to about this because if I even hint at the fact that I dont want to spank because it just FEELS SO WRONG to me, well... Then Im in sin and my sinful nature is bucking against God's rules set out in Proverbs on how we are to spank. It's very frustrating. :/

---------- Post added at 03:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:34 PM ----------

I think there are many values of mainstream Christian culture that can lead to spanking appearing successful, and children growing up and spanking their own children.

- Emphasis on APPEARANCE. Children are raised to believe that outward behavior is the most important (being spanked until you are "sweet enough"). Being told that you are an example to all the lost souls out there and need to be pro-Jesus all the time.

- Taught to honor your parents above all. Disagreeing with them may seem dishonoring, especially if you otherwise love your parents and had a happy childhood.

- Sometimes being discouraged to question, or questions being answered with "we can't know the mysteries of God". Not that everything can be answered, but I don't think there is enough value placed on truly wrestling with something.

- Being told that spanking is GOD'S plan. We don't want to go against GOD do we? I mean, the BIBLE says to spank. And we follow the Bible no matter what (going back to the previous point, about not questioning enough). In some ways, we are raised with the idea of being "in the world but not of the world" - so we can appear different, and it's easier to accept that what secular research has proven negative (spanking) somehow doesn't apply to us or we'll do it anyway.

- It's a Catch-22 cycle... because of the emphasis on spanking, there is nothing done to fill your toolbox with other tools. And because you have no other tools, you resort to spanking. And all the people you look up to - pastors, elders, Sunday School teachers, mentors - all spanked, and they are telling you to spank, and at the end of the day without a community like GCM you might just say maybe you were wrong after all to question something so clearly biblical and by questioning you are dishonoring your parents and being a bad witness to the non-Christians out there and now they'll never be saved because your kids were bad in the store.

Not sure if that makes sense, just thoughts I had.

Perfect sense.

I have to say, Im sitting here in tears because that last paragraph is exactly how I am feeling lately. WHY do I feel that spanking is so bad, but everyone else feels its so right??? It's an internal conflict I wrestle with every day. I wasnt raised in a Christian home, but I was spanked a lot, and I do believe it hurt me and my relationship with my parents. But of course if I try to explain that to anyone, well, it was because they did it in anger and not in a calm way (which Im not sure which is worse, but whatever).

---------- Post added at 03:47 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:41 PM ----------

I don't know why in the world you would assume that there are no ill effects of the spanking and punitive and adversarial measures being taken in those homes. You cannot possibly read their heqrts, know their feelings about themselves, their ability to trust others, their ability to form sound attachments, their ability to healthily deal with sadness and nager, their status re: drug use/depression/self-destructive behaviors, and you certainly cannot predict their futrue - which is where most evidence becomes apparent, in the college years and beyond.

People don't see the right things most of the time. They are looking for "easy" - the child who is polite, obeys quickly, questions nothing, and stays out of trouble. That's not always a healthy person being made.

We have had several young women come to this board saying what fabulous childhoods they had, how wonderful their relationships were with their parents, even w/ the spanking, or in fact because of the spanking/authoritarian parenting, only to have them a couple fo years later realize how harmful and detrimental that parenting style was to their emotional wellbeing.

Im not assuming that there are no ill effects. I guess what Im saying is that other Christians are telling me there are no ill effects. I am a part of a board on FB for "godly parenting," most are Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian. Spanking comes up a lot, of course, and 99% of the parents on it are for it (and actually its their answer for ANY kind of discipline issue you ask about, it's pretty frustrating). Of course, most of them were spanked as children so I dunno, it just baffles me how nobody can SEE how damaging it is. Or maybe they arent admitting it? I dont know. Like with my daughter, when I spanked her, it made everything SO much worse. But other Christians I know dont seem to have that problem.... When I spank, my child is NOT more behaved haha she is more aggressive, mean, hits more, basically all that research says a child would do. So I wonder why other children arent like that?

[TenderLovingWillow]

I think there are many values of mainstream Christian culture that can lead to spanking appearing successful, and children growing up and spanking their own children.

- Emphasis on APPEARANCE. Children are raised to believe that outward behavior is the most important (being spanked until you are "sweet enough"). Being told that you are an example to all the lost souls out there and need to be pro-Jesus all the time.

- Taught to honor your parents above all. Disagreeing with them may seem dishonoring, especially if you otherwise love your parents and had a happy childhood.

- Sometimes being discouraged to question, or questions being answered with "we can't know the mysteries of God". Not that everything can be answered, but I don't think there is enough value placed on truly wrestling with something.

- Being told that spanking is GOD'S plan. We don't want to go against GOD do we? I mean, the BIBLE says to spank. And we follow the Bible no matter what (going back to the previous point, about not questioning enough). In some ways, we are raised with the idea of being "in the world but not of the world" - so we can appear different, and it's easier to accept that what secular research has proven negative (spanking) somehow doesn't apply to us or we'll do it anyway.

- It's a Catch-22 cycle... because of the emphasis on spanking, there is nothing done to fill your toolbox with other tools. And because you have no other tools, you resort to spanking. And all the people you look up to - pastors, elders, Sunday School teachers, mentors - all spanked, and they are telling you to spank, and at the end of the day without a community like GCM you might just say maybe you were wrong after all to question something so clearly biblical and by questioning you are dishonoring your parents and being a bad witness to the non-Christians out there and now they'll never be saved because your kids were bad in the store.

Not sure if that makes sense, just thoughts I had.

This.

I was harmed by spanking, but you would have never known by looking at me.

You assume since Gods plan is to spank, the bad memories, residual effect are due to your parents being human and not the spanking itself. You are taught to understand that your parents are human and not always using the *right tool* the right way. But you never question the tool.

I also think that those who know better and understand better will see the effects in their life. If you have no desire to see them or change its like they don't exist.

And I think personality plays into it to. DH just isn't affected by it the same way I am. :shrug doesn't mean it was good for him, but he doesn't have lasting issues to sort through in regards to spanking, and some just don't.

[twentysixcats]

This.

I was harmed by spanking, but you would have never known by looking at me.

You assume since Gods plan is to spank, the bad memories, residual effect are due to your parents being human and not the spanking itself. You are taught to understand that your parents are human and not always using the *right tool* the right way. But you never question the tool.

I also think that those who know better and understand better will see the effects in their life. If you have no desire to see them or change its like they don't exist.

And I think personality plays into it to. DH just isn't affected by it the same way I am. :shrug doesn't mean it was good for him, but he doesn't have lasting issues to sort through in regards to spanking, and some just don't.

Exactly. When I started questioning punitive punishment, I would tell people that I had mixed feelings about being spanked as a child. The most common responses I got were:
- Your parents spanked in anger (or spanked wrong somehow)
- Spanking is SUPPOSED to be negative - so of course you have bad feelings about it!

I have spoken to people who were siblings and had different responses to how their parents raised them, as far as whether they'd repeat it for their kids. So definitely personality plays a role.

And really, how many parents do you know who actually ENJOY spanking their kids? It seems that usually, it's really hard for the parents. (With the exception of punishing a child in the heat of anger, but even the pro-spanking camps generally discourage that.) They do it anyway because they think it's Right, just like we force ourselves to eat healthy food when we'd rather a candy bar, or exercise when we'd rather watch TV. (I'm sure there are exceptions of course.)

[Charity]

Im not assuming that there are no ill effects. I guess what Im saying is that other Christians are telling me there are no ill effects. I am a part of a board on FB for "godly parenting," most are Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian. Spanking comes up a lot, of course, and 99% of the parents on it are for it (and actually its their answer for ANY kind of discipline issue you ask about, it's pretty frustrating). Of course, most of them were spanked as children so I dunno, it just baffles me how nobody can SEE how damaging it is. Or maybe they arent admitting it? I dont know. Like with my daughter, when I spanked her, it made everything SO much worse. But other Christians I know dont seem to have that problem.... When I spank, my child is NOT more behaved haha she is more aggressive, mean, hits more, basically all that research says a child would do. So I wonder why other children arent like that?

First, I strong urge you to leave that FB group ASAP! If you truly want to parent gently and with grace, you CANNOT allow yourself to be apart of a group that promotes and supports hitting children. It's too easy to get caught up in the "these people are godly so maybe they are right and I'm wrong" lie.

Second, if you hit a dog once, it may snap or bite back. But after routine and regular hitting it will learn to fear you and cower before you. I believe that it's the same way with our children. Ds has been spanked sporadically. We started practicing gbd when he was about 9mos but when things get tough we have spanked out of anger and frustration. Never regularly, in a moment of anger kind of way and we always apologize after. I HATE when I lose my cool and respond with violence. Ds knows hitting is wrong yet when I hit him I send the message that it's ok. I don't ever want him to fear me. So each day I remind myself that I am a gentle mom and gentle does NOT include hitting.

When friends talk or joke about spanking their kids or do so in front of me, I have to again remind myself that hitting is not ok. Regardless of how well behaved their kids may seem, I know all too well what kind of threats parents use to keep their kids "in line"... "Wait til we get home", wooden spoons in the diaper bag, etc.




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[milkmommy]

I grew up in a "spanking" home I turned out polite (and was as a child) and well rounded, I did not live in fear or coward at my parents calls etc..
However It was not because of spanking rather it was parents with strong values, clear cut age appropite rules, honestly to a degree even defined conquences. Spanking was mildly and momentarly successful but ONLY because all the other stuff was in place.
We (DH and I ) strive to have the same values, age appropiate rules and defined conquence without the hitting. Making our words have meaning setting bars high enough to achieve while encouraging the next stage, and following through even when it is easier to ingnore or give in.
One thing that many spanking circles often DO have that to be honestly MANY more AP gentle parenting circles lack is a better authority and confidence in rules and structure, sadly though they think its because of the punishments. It is not. :shrug3

[Kiara.I]

Im not assuming that there are no ill effects. I guess what Im saying is that other Christians are telling me there are no ill effects. I am a part of a board on FB for "godly parenting," most are Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian. Spanking comes up a lot, of course, and 99% of the parents on it are for it (and actually its their answer for ANY kind of discipline issue you ask about, it's pretty frustrating). Of course, most of them were spanked as children so I dunno, it just baffles me how nobody can SEE how damaging it is. Or maybe they arent admitting it? I dont know.

:giggle
Well, the thing about a blind spot is that they're kind of hard to see. :giggle

Like with my daughter, when I spanked her, it made everything SO much worse. But other Christians I know dont seem to have that problem.... When I spank, my child is NOT more behaved haha she is more aggressive, mean, hits more, basically all that research says a child would do. So I wonder why other children arent like that?

They are. It's just that if you spanked for every infraction from the get-go, there's nothing to get worse *from*.

Plus, in your case, your *child* knows there's a better way, and that you're suddenly departing from it, so she's more likely to respond badly.

[ThreeKids]

You assume since Gods plan is to spank, the bad memories, residual effect are due to your parents being human and not the spanking itself. You are taught to understand that your parents are human and not always using the *right tool* the right way. But you never question the tool.

That's where I was. As enraged as I was with every single experience of being spanked, I just thought those feelings were because it was being done unjustly in my case. I was planning to spank even past when ds was born and, at the time the Holy Spirit changed me, I was just putting it off until he was older because I instinctively knew it would be particularly damaging in his case.

I eventually realized that there were no circumstances of being spanked where I would have agreed with it. I was either sorry and the spanking was evidence they didn't know my heart or I wasn't sorry and the spanking was temptation to change my values based on threats. In retrospect, if I ever did believe I deserved a spanking, it would have been due to giving my own sense of right and wrong over to another human being and that would have been sad.

[Johns_Gal]

I haven't read the whole thread, so if I'm repeating forgive me.

Just because something is, or seems to be, effective, it DOES NOT make it appropriate. :no It is never okay to hit someone to get the results you want. That is bullying. I don't care if the kid seems to be happy and well rounded.

So, the idea that there is a right way confounds me. There is no right way to hit someone. :no Even if it produces results.

[NavaNessa]

Just because something is, or seems to be, effective, it DOES NOT make it appropriate. :no It is never okay to hit someone to get the results you want. That is bullying. I don't care if the kid seems to be happy and well rounded.

So, the idea that there is a right way confounds me. There is no right way to hit someone. :no Even if it produces results.

Wow. Can I share this on FB? I totally understand if you prefer that I not...but that was fantasically worded. Thank you for that :D

[Beth1231]

I am so grateful that I have known very few spanking parents during my parenting journey. But two families stand out to me,one Evangelical and the other agnostic. Or more to the point,their children stand out to me. The well-behaved children who carefully manipulate the situation to appear innocent to avoid getting hit. The children who clearly do not wholly trust their parents because it is not safe to and they know it. I'm mainly talking about being able to admit wrong choices and not being able to express negative,strong emotion. I see the threat "work" in both families because the parents are consistent (ruthless?) and I :shiver at my own memories of doing the very same things. Imnsho, spanking in an otherwise loving Christian home is worse than a non-religious one because there is the added spiritual abuse of "God says we must do this/you must atone for your sin".

I second the advice to get off the punitive parenting online group. Especially with little ones at more challenging ages...it can really mess with your head. :hugheart

[MarynMunchkins]

How I parent isn't about the behavior of my kids. It's about *my* behavior. If it doesn't show the fruit of the Spirit, it's not something I want to continue. It doesn't matter if my kids are polite and cooperative if I'm not kind, gentle, patient, self-controlled, etc. :no My kids aren't easy, and they don't make me look like the world's most awesome parent. I am not raising them to either. I'm raising them to be kind, responsible followers of Christ and that's a much greater lesson. I can't even begin to do that while I'm hitting them.

I think too, when you are dealing with people who were spanked by loving parents, it's difficult to admit it was damaging because you're essentially saying you had bad parents. It's hard to grasp the concept that you were treated badly by people that love you just as it's hard to realize you can treat people you love badly too.

[rjy9343]

I don't have anything to add about the reasons. But I am going to strongly encourage you to leave the board. Or at least limit the time you spend on it. Hearing those punitive answers and rational does mess with even the most committed gentle parent.
You have to ideals that are at odds. You are committed to gentle discipline and they are not. You will not sway them to your side no matter what. And every time your daughter steps out of line or does what they consider bad behavior, you will hear how you need to rethink you stance on spanking. When you correct a problematic behavior such as biting, it will be in spite of the way you parent, not because of.

[WildFlower]

How I parent isn't about the behavior of my kids. It's about *my* behavior. If it doesn't show the fruit of the Spirit, it's not something I want to continue. It doesn't matter if my kids are polite and cooperative if I'm not kind, gentle, patient, self-control, etc. :no .
Mary I LOVE this!! Well said!

[Johns_Gal]

Sure, NavaNessa.

And in other news, for a second I thought rjy was telling the OP to leave *this* board and I was all :jawdrop Wow. :lol

The only spankers I have known since becoming a parent are TTUAC folks. Ironically, when I stopped trying to find Christians to hang out with, I stopped finding people who hit their kids. That's just sad, IMHO.

[rjy9343]

And in other news, for a second I thought rjy was telling the OP to leave *this* board and I was all :jawdrop Wow. :lol

:haha

[saturnfire16]

Im not assuming that there are no ill effects. I guess what Im saying is that other Christians are telling me there are no ill effects. I am a part of a board on FB for "godly parenting," most are Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian. Spanking comes up a lot, of course, and 99% of the parents on it are for it (and actually its their answer for ANY kind of discipline issue you ask about, it's pretty frustrating). Of course, most of them were spanked as children so I dunno, it just baffles me how nobody can SEE how damaging it is. Or maybe they arent admitting it? I dont know. Like with my daughter, when I spanked her, it made everything SO much worse. But other Christians I know dont seem to have that problem.... When I spank, my child is NOT more behaved haha she is more aggressive, mean, hits more, basically all that research says a child would do. So I wonder why other children arent like that?

I think a lot of that is personality. Some kids cower and can be controlled easily and some are much stronger. I thank God for my strong-willed first born! She is what led me to look into things other than spanking. When she was 18 months old, I started smacking her hand for things like touching the tv buttons. I smacked, she looked at me and did it again. I smacked harder, she did it again. I SMACKED HARDER, and she did it again. I shocked myself with my own anger and I realized that I was setting up a power struggle that could only end one of two ways- she'd win and rule the house or I'd win and she'd be broken emotionally or maybe worse. :sick

You daughter is being aggressive and mean because when you spank her you are being aggressive and mean. She's learning from you.

Some kids will respond with fear and fall in line, but thank God that your daughter isn't one of those. Truly, if you can learn to embrace her God-given personality, she can grow into a strong, godly woman who won't ever back down from injustice and won't let anyone hurt her. :yes Or you can push hard enough to break her, or simply have this battle your whole lives. :(

[iwillhope]

I agree...the effect is everywhere. I think we don't see it b/c in many Christian circles, I'm guessing, these things should be kept behind closed doors...'not airing dirty laundry.' Like...domestic violence as a result of spanking, women suffering from depression b/c they want out but it is the thing everyone is doing so they feel they must suffer on and hide their depressions, b/c after all, depression is a result of sin so thereffore the woman must do more and be more, etc. Then there is bullying, even in Christian schools. Even families in ministry, pastors and missionaries, there are many 'do it my way or no way' and my family was one. I bucked the system and was shunned by my family.

And then there is the mentality of 'you get what you deserve' for criminals. Not that criminals shouldn't be punished you know but many Christians have no grace for these people. Some kids grow up in homes and really don't stand a chance...it's sad.

[Hilary316]

The only spankers I have known since becoming a parent are TTUAC folks. Ironically, when I stopped trying to find Christians to hang out with, I stopped finding people who hit their kids. That's just sad, IMHO.

Yes it is very discouraging. I dont know any Christians IRL that share the same parenting convictions that I do. I have a good friend online and we help each other, so that's good. On that one board, Ive learned to not even read the "discipline" threads because they are filled with triggers for me.

I truly believe that spanking is one way satan has a stronghold on the Christian community. It's so completely irrational to me how 99% of Christians can think a verse in Proverbs can be taken as Law and turned into a whole parenting philosophy. It's like they think they have nothing else to use, so they hold on so dearly to it. Its so sad. :/ And as was said above, so many teens/college age kids are leaving the church for good. I think Ive heard upwards of 80%? Most of the Reformed people I know blame it on public schooling (which IMO has some to do with it), but no, we'd never admit that our punitive parenting has anything to do with it!

[Zooey]

Oh, goodness, they are everywhere! They are in counseling sessions, and meeting with divorce attorneys, and doing their best to get through the day. They are on anti-depressants, and anti-anxieties, and sitting in addiction support groups. They are spanking fetishists, and people who embrace domestic discipline . . .

Is spanking the only reason? Sometimes. Not always. But there are definitely effects that people are dealing with all around you . . . .even if they were hit enough to learn to stuff it all down where you can't see.

I also know many pagans and atheists who either left the church or want nothing to do with/hear from it because of how children are treated within the walls of Christendom.
What Crystal said.
I look at the folks who were spanked, and who spanked their kids, & I remember all the times those very same people have said: "I ended up having no relationship with my parents at all", & the spanking parents are saying in one breath that spanking worked for them, & then sighing over their children who never darken a church door.....

One person I am thinking of right now raised her children with the :sick kitchen spoon as "the rod". One is an agnostic. The other lets his wife take their kids to her (Catholic) church, but refused to go even for his eldest's first communion. Because any church makes him:sick:mad.

And I cry, & I pray.