Learning how to respond to those who promote "god-ordained"abuse or oppression

[Hope]

One of my prayers in recent years was that I would learn how to better respond to those who are promoting oppression or abuse in the name of God or under the guise that it is biblical. I've had seasons of my life where my response tended to be one of paralysis, because honestly, I was so disgusted by what was being promoted that it made me so sick to my stomach I didn't even know how to respond. I've had other seasons where my response was probably anything but gentle- more along the lines of judgmental, condemning, and know-it-all, which wasn't remotely how I wanted to come across, but because I was so horrified at what was being promoted so vehemently, I became vehement in my response. I am learning that neither of those extremes are effective in trying to stand up for the truth, and that the best approach is one of gently, compassionately, and respectfully engaging in conversation with the hope of educating those who are so sure that the bible is telling us to abuse or oppress. (if they are willing to learn...i do think there is a certain type of personality sometimes drawn to religious abuse or oppression that does not want to know the truth, they want to keep doing what they are doing and feel like they can justify it :( ) Anyway, I just had to share 2 examples I saw online last week of Christian women responding to those who were on the wrong track in this way with kindness, respect, and a total lack of defensiveness. I was so impressed by this and it has really encouraged me to keep working on my response in these situations...prayerfully and deliberately...so that I can be a gentle agent for healthy, Christ-centered change in the lives of others.

The first one was on the Facebook page, "Christians against violent and abusive parenting"... I believe this is a public page so anyone can view it, and there was an incredible thread of conversation in some posts back and forth on it by someone claiming that she was "better because she had been spanked" and by several women who worked to gently educate her on the dangers of spanking. So compassionate, kind, respectful and thoughtful. I was really moved by this. http://www.facebook.com/cavaap

The second was on the hearunderstandobey website which I found through the arms of love family fellowship website. http://hearunderstandobey.com/about-pastor-crystal-lutton.html#more-1 In the chain of comments following this page, Pastor Lutton goes back and forth with a man who seems to be trying to convince her that the bible says women shouldn't be in ministry. Her responses are both humble and direct, kind and challenging, straightforward and respectful. At one point she says, "I appreciate that you are asking because you want to learn. I have so much respect for that. And I won’t have answers for everything–but questions I can’t answer send me back into my studies. So I do enjoy this dialogue." which I just think is an awesome approach. (I know she is on this site so I hope she sees this and that she inspired me!) While this is a totally different topic than child abuse or child discipline, which are the situations I primarily run into, I do believe that the way some people read into the bible that women can't be in ministry (we have a church in our town that forbids it- women can't even teach teenagers there) or that marriages should have wife-only submission is very oppressive, and can definitely lead to abuse, and so observing how she handled someone attacking her healthy beliefs was very inspiring to me.

Back to the spanking issue though, like I said the exchange of conversation on the facebook page I mentioned above was very helpful to me, and that page is trying to post a lot of resources on the dangers of spanking this month which I hope will help us all in our quest to have material readily available for those who want to learn. (i am going to try to post some things to the wall there later this week so if you have ideas of resources that haven't been posted there yet, please let me know). I would also love to hear others on this forum chime in below about how you respond when people are promoting spanking....or oppression, or abuse, or physical punishment in general...you name it. What has worked for you? What hasn't? What if they are vehement followers of a self-proclaimed "expert" like Ezzo or Dobson? Any advice you could give would be much appreciated. Let's keep praying that God will soften hearts and teach truth to those who are so wrapped up in perpetrating religious abuse or oppression that they can't see that what they are doing is so far from God's heart.

[silverlining]

I think being able to speak directly yet gently is so very important. It's hard not to respond harshly when it's something we feel strongly about, but this usually just makes the other person more defensive and less able to hear us. I've heard a lot on this site about "assuming positive intent," and I think it applies even to situations we might view as abusive or oppressive. Yes, there are parents who are just mean, but most people who spank their children do so because they truly believe it is right and good. Validating their desire to care for and teach their children can make them more receptive to hearing new/different ideas about how to do this. I also believe strongly in planting a seed and then giving it time to grow. A little comment such as, "you, know, I was spanked as a child, but I don't think it really helped me learn anything," without any judgement about the rightness or wrongness of spanking, may get someone thinking more than a rigid denouncement of physical punishment.

[LearningMama]

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[momyshaver]

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[NavaNessa]

I don't have any advice - I'm following this thread in order to see the responses.
I'm terrible about just "freezing up" - words just flee my brain, and I'm left with nothing to say!!
I would love to be able to kindly, but firmly share why I believe punitive parenting is harmful, and not just stare blankly back at someone!!

Also, may I ask what the coffee cup symbol means? :blush

[silverlining]

I don't have any advice - I'm following this thread in order to see the responses.
I'm terrible about just "freezing up" - words just flee my brain, and I'm left with nothing to say!!
I would love to be able to kindly, but firmly share why I believe punitive parenting is harmful, and not just stare blankly back at someone!!

Also, may I ask what the coffee cup symbol means? :blush

The part that I bolded is usually what the coffee cup means. It subscribes you to the thread so it will show up on your "User CP" when there are new responses.

[MarynMunchkins]

Well, I used to believe and parent that way. So it's fairly easy for me to say, "I use to agree with you, but the more I parented and researched, the more I learned about better ways to parent. I'm so grateful God changed my heart toward my children and taught me about himself in the process." :heart

It's *super* hard to argue with that. :shifty

[tigerlily]

I don't have any advice - I'm following this thread in order to see the responses.
I'm terrible about just "freezing up" - words just flee my brain, and I'm left with nothing to say!!
I would love to be able to kindly, but firmly share why I believe punitive parenting is harmful, and not just stare blankly back at someone!!

Also, may I ask what the coffee cup symbol means? :blush

Sometimes freezing up with nothing to say can be a great response. Especially if you are left with a look of shock on your face. It can help people to stop and think about the words they just said and reevaluate them for appropriateness.

It's okay to shake with fear, be scared, and end up not saying anything at all. Go on living your life, go on disciplining your children gently. Let the difference be seen and lived. :hug

[Virginia]

I try to remember that, like you alluded to in your OP, it's not my job to change anyone's HEART. Only God can do that :amen
I can't argue anyone into gentle parenting because many of those people are not thinking logically but are so entrenched in their beliefs that logic may not sway them. Sometimes I'll mention studies or articles I've read, but rarely. Depends on the person and their willingness to be open to discussion.

It isn't my job to chang hearts, but it is my job to be Christ's ambassador and to represent Him accurately :yes And He is kind, loving, and honest. So, I try really hard to be that way when I'm responding to people. I try to let Him use me to just plant little seeds.

Some things I've said in the past that have worked:

"I'm so thankful that God is gracious and merciful. I hope to model that for my future children. I don't think spanking teaches that, so I will choose not to do that to my future kids."

"I was extremely damaged by spanking, even though I seemed fine. I don't want to risk doing that to my future kids."

One person I've been able to "win over" has been my mom. I mostly realized that she was arguing FOR spanking because she felt defensive...she already feels like she failed us, and if she admitted spanking was a poor decision, that was just one more "failure." I tried to just listen, reflect feelings, assure her that we turned out ok, point out that my dad pressured her into spanking a lot of times, and tell her it was ok. After a few months, she felt listened to, and we were able to talk things out, and she now doesn't think spanking is the best way :) I'm so thankful she will be supportive of my decision to parent gently someday!

[CelticJourney]

I have approached the subject differently.

For me and my journey in this area, it has been about knowledge. I know more about Ezzo and what he says than many people who claim to follow his teachings. One day I was talking to a friend about the subject and she mentioned an interaction with another Ezzo follower that she was hurt by. I responded 'well, she 'violated your preciousness' (Ezzo buzz phrase) right there, didn't she'. She was :hunh and said 'you really have researched this haven't you?!' You can't be heard until your words are valued.

The second thing is to know why you do what you do. Why you reject the punitive interpretation of the 'rod' verse, etc. The words of Christ.

So if you know why you don't want to go 'that' way and why you want to go 'this' way, you are ready to have a discussion on the issue WHEN the spirit calls upon you to do so.

And that is the secnd key. We are not always called to speak. Sometimes it's 'pearls before swine' and not how we are supposed to use our emotional and spritual energy.

[Hope]

What great words of wisdom...some of the things you said above that really resonated with me were the importance of speaking with humility ("I used to struggle with that (or something similar)"), not being afraid to look shocked (I have read that the worst thing to do is either ignore the parent's behavior or smile nervously), planting a seed, and praying and trusting the Holy Spirit to work. If there is one thing I'm learning it is to always pray and pray hard- whether my response ends up being one of just a surprised look, just a comment in passing (one I want to try soon is "no hitting! Oh wait, I must be in mommy mode because I just said that to an adult- oops! Although actually...maybe we should be held to the same standard as our children!"- I have seen people do this lightheartedly enough that it really got the spanker's attention without them feeling condemned), or a more thorough conversation about being worried about them or their kids.

I want to speak more to the ideas of Assuming positive intent, Getting educated to kind of "earn the right" to speak into what they are doing, and modeling the right way for parents to behave by how we treat our own children because I think those are all very wise perspectives too, but I am running out of energy and baby is sleeping so I want to to so that will need to wait...but in the meantime, I have another question...I feel called to approach the situation differently when someone is simply behaving in a way that is harmful to their child (spanking, shaming, letting them cry it out, etc) than when someone is actively promoting behaviors like that to other people and encouraging them to try it...saying it is God's what or the only way or required for Christians...do other people out there feel similarly? That while the latter group (those teaching harmful parenting methods) is the slowest or even least likely to come around on things, they do deserve to be held to a higher standard since they are taking it on themselves to teach others, and it is just as important to share the truth in love with them even though it might feel scarier if they are presenting themselves as experts?

[CelticJourney]

Hope, how old is your baby? Something you really need to be careful of is focusing on what other people are doing and allowing a level of negativity into your life, home and mothering. Thinking about how you will respond to a potential situation (as opposed to 'this happens each week at play group and I need a way to deal with it') in advance means you are giving it your emotional energy. Focus on loving your baby and doing what you know is right and then let that be your testimony. People will notice

[Hope]

Interesting perspective...when i think about myself and my friends, i have found that actually the people i know who think through these situations in advance and have a general sense of how they are going to respond are then able to spend less emotional energy on them when they inevitably occur (because they aren't startled/surprised/stressed out by them) than those who haven't given it much advance thought or prayer. That said, I agree that there is such a thing as spending too much energy and thought on it, and I know for me it is important to monitor that since I am so passionate about it. (And that a lot of times if we do gently speak up there is still at least a small feeling of ick afterwards just because we have both witnessed something harmful happen to a child and then done something counter cultural by commenting on it...knowing how to work through that ick so that it doesn't last and impact myself or my family is key). My perspective is that this, like so much else in life, is about balance...balancing the immediate needs and protection of our family which always come first with what I believe is a need to speak up against oppression or harm when God puts it on our heart (because that too is important for our family...both to help plant seeds to potentially make a difference (however small) in the world in which they will live and to be an example to them of how to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves...one of my teenagers and I had a very teachable moment last week as she observed how I handled a situation that popped up and it led to such a rich, blessed conversation). That said, we are in a place in our family right now where I can afford to spend energy in this way without it negatively impacting us and I have a great support system around me (who can help hold me accountable to slowing down or pulling back if i get carried away with "gentle advocacy" :)) and I know that is not always the case for others...10 years ago in my marriage it wouldn't have been the case for me because it was a season of needing all my energy focused there. Helpful words though, I will pray about them and pray specifically that God will continue to guide me related to that. I wholeheartedly agree that our example and testimony is the best way to make a difference in the world around us.

[TenderLovingWillow]

Hope, how old is your baby? Something you really need to be careful of is focusing on what other people are doing and allowing a level of negativity into your life, home and mothering. Thinking about how you will respond to a potential situation (as opposed to 'this happens each week at play group and I need a way to deal with it') in advance means you are giving it your emotional energy. Focus on loving your baby and doing what you know is right and then let that be your testimony. People will notice

This is where I am right now. I let comments slide, because with my personality I really believe I can get people to agree if I just say things right. When it doesn't work, I get all worked up about it, and worse, their negative parenting stuff slips into my head in the bad moments. I don't engage people who can't encourage me to be gentle to my kids.

When my kids get older and are rock awesome ;) then I feel like I will have a voice to the young moms..

[AlwaysJuly]

I don't know anyone in real life who promotes spanking or CIO, although many of my friends do one or the other or both. It's not something they *promote* so much as something they view as unavoidable.

I don't mean this in a condescending way when I say I oftentimes feel bad for them. I think they are great mamas. Just... caught up, in a tough culture and the challenges of the moment. I share what I read and my feelings, but in what I hope is a non-judgmental way - and with the acknowledgement that I am the mama of a little baby, and that I still have a lot of challenges to face down myself in the future.

[Hope]

Was catching up on the forum today and happened to reread this, and the post above about getting educated on what some of these authors promote really stood out to me...the value in being as educated or more about it than even many of their followers. I remember feeling some clarity when I read some of the concerns about babywise on ezzo.info (an independent site evaluating babywise and expressing concern) but then actually even MORE clarity about how harmful their methods were when I read the site that (if I understand correctly) ezzo and followers designed to respond to the independent site, which they have at ezzotruth.com. The latter site had quotes promoting and defending it that just seem so far off - like someone sharing that when they implemented babywise parent-controlled feeding it was not like having a baby in the family at all, but rather just like having another child in the family. I remember thinking, "but it is a baby! It should feel like having a baby in the family!" Hmmm.... Then they respond to concerns that they promote CIO by saying they don't promote CIO, but do promote XYZ and then of course their description of XYZ is precisely cry it out. The most concerning thing I remember seeing was their answer to the question,
Do the ezzos use the crucifixion of Christ as a justification for letting a baby cry? They refer people to their website for the answer, where they quote directly from the book, and seem to do exactly that (along the lines of "god let Jesus cry on the cross so it wouldn't be against his character to let a baby cry"). I just remember thinking that so many of my friends into babywise have no idea the depth of scary false theology behind the theories of babywise that at first glance to them seem in line with scripture...and so often I think it is hard for parents of newborns to take the time to dig deeper so that first impression that seems "good" or "godly" or "scripturally based" hooks them in, before they can evaluate if the theology is legit and if it would actually help or harm their baby long term. Knowledge is power...and I pray that people would be able to see the whole package when they evaluate a parenting author or speaker.

[katiekind]

which they have at ezzotruth.com. The latter site had quotes promoting and defending it that just seem so far off - like someone sharing that when they implemented babywise parent-controlled feeding it was not like having a baby in the family at all, but rather just like having another child in the family. I remember thinking, "but it is a baby! It should feel like having a baby in the family!" Hmmm.... Since I help administer the Ezzo.info site, I just had to say, Amen, sister!!! I remember reading the example you're referring to and thinking the same thing. It certainly is gratifying to know that their words, which can seem so confusing, don't confuse or fool everyone! :rockon

Knowledge is power...and I pray that people would be able to see the whole package when they evaluate a parenting author or speaker. That is the truth. When I talk to young parents, I just try to give them accurate information. Information is very empowering, and can support people in their individual circumstances. A program tends to have the opposite effect.

I'll step off my soapbox. But I was delighted to hear your thoughts.

[Hope]

Thank you so much for administering the ezzo.info site- just the other day I shared it with a young mom who had been given babywise and was thinking of doing it because she thought it looked good at first glance- what a blessing to have a resource like that to direct her to! She change her mind!!!!

Quick question- I can't access any more than just the first part of the first page of the site on my phone- have others had that issue? (and it makes it look like that is all there is so you don't know you are missing something). Is there any way to make it more mobile device friendly? Just thinking out loud that so many young parents use their phones to look up things like that these days...

Thanks again so much for such a great resource!