s/o - Are babies happier in traditional, "more AP" African societies?

[jubles]

This is a spin off from another thread. Please move it if it isn't in the right place.

I keep coming across articles along the lines of Kenyan/insert other African country babies hardly cry and it's because these societies are so AP. Having lived in two African countries (east and west) and visited two others, I'm not really convinced by these arguments. Here's what I've observed. It would be good if others with experience of African or other traditional societies could chip in.

Good things:

Breastfeeding is expected and nursing in public is very acceptable.
Babywearing (usually on the back) is widely practised.
Co-sleeping for a few years in common. Most African friends view cribs as bordering on barbaric, especially if they are in a different room.
Extended breastfeeding is common.
Most people don't like leaving babies to cry. I was once told off for not taking R out of her carseat because she was crying. We had no way of stopping the car, and I was beside her comforting her, but that wasn't enough.


However, here are a few other things that are really sad and seem to be pretty common.


While extended breastfeeding is common, it's also common to wean cold-turkey if the mother becomes pregnant or the baby reaches a certain age. Where I am at the moment, it's believed that you can't nurse while pregnant as it's bad for the unborn child and nursing child. Many people here will wean by giving their child something like Fanta or Coke for a few nights instead of breastmilk, then switching to water. The argument is, "they'll cry for the Fanta, but at least they won't ask for milk".
Often it seems that babies aren't crying much because they are under-stimulated or in some cases under-nourished.
Some friends have observed that often young children are allowed to do whatever they like and are given whatever they want, but then when they get a little older they will be beaten very severely.


These are just a few things to start discussion. I can think of others. I am not convinced that African babies are happier. Many are quieter, and less likely to explore, but I'm not convinced that means they are happier.

What do other people think?

[teamommy]

I think that babies that are loved and well-cared for are happy.

I think a lot of the AP literature I read early in my parenting (8-9 years ago) over-idealized traditional cultures and societies. The Continuum Concept comes to mind, but there are other examples.

How would one judge whether a baby is "happier" or not, anyway? I mean, the babies who have pacifiers stuck in their mouths in an infant seat every time they fuss might seem happy enough; they aren't crying. How would one judge this?

Now, I have always thought that my babies would have been happier if I lived somewhere where I did not have to drive anywhere and could just carry them rather than putting them in a car seat. I always feel terrible about having very little ones in the car awake, because mine generally aren't very happy then.

[cheri]

I think it's tough to compare cultures.

The women breastfeed because that's the culture and formula is not always available, they wear their babies because they don't drive cars around. They sleep with them because they don't have beds and most people sleep in the same room- not because they're trying to create a family bedroom, but just because that's all that's available.

The children also roam freely everywhere from a very young age, which isn't always safe. Babies can chew on sticks and eat rocks and animal feces :shrug3

[tazmom]

Some friends have observed that often young children are allowed to do whatever they like and are given whatever they want, but then when they get a little older they will be beaten very severely.
I have a friend from Africa and this is what stood out to me. Our kids are similar in age and the differences in parenting style was very obvious by age 2-3. I was always a little sad for her kids. I never saw her oldest smile until I started teaching the preschool class. Her toddler spent the entire service cuddling with me, but never said a word or smiled at me . The mom has no problem raising a hand to her kids anywhere, public or otherwise.

While I get that African culture is more likely to AP their babies because they're doing what's available or what's been taught for hundreds of years, I don't think it should be idealized. Lots of people don't know the other side. My friend's kids certainly didn't seem happier.

[cheri]

I have a friend from Africa and this is what stood out to me. Our kids are similar in age and the differences in parenting style was very obvious by age 2-3. I was always a little sad for her kids. I never saw her oldest smile until I started teaching the preschool class. Her toddler spent the entire service cuddling with me, but never said a word or smiled at me . The mom has no problem raising a hand to her kids anywhere, public or otherwise.

While I get that African culture is more likely to AP their babies because they're doing what's available or what's been taught for hundreds of years, I don't think it should be idealized. Lots of people don't know the other side. My friend's kids certainly didn't seem happier.

Yes, all of this. And I don't think that the fact that they carry their babies or co-sleep to be intentionally AP. I think it's just practical, cultural, and not a bonding experience.

IME with knowing people from various African countries, if anything, they're not AP at all, but many are actually quite abusive toward their children- in a way that would send many American parents to jail- but is often the norm there.

[Tengokujin]

Well, even the amount of smiling that a small child does is a cultural thing as well. Our culture is very smiley and smiling at babies and encouraging interaction is something that most people do along the entire parenting spectrum. Not so much in other cultures which are more deadpan.

Even seeking "happy" children is something that we value. Other cultures might and do put a higher priority on other characteristics. They might also value ones that we see as a liability. Shyness in the US is a negative. In China and other parts of Asia, it's a positive.

I think that we, as Western Hemisphere/Americans/ however you call it, and those of us that have educated ourselves to make conscious choices about how we parent, have the ability to look at our own culture critically, and examine other cultures for ideas that may work for us. That's how I process AP materials that seem to idealize 3rd world/"primitive" cultures that keep children close and seem to follow many AP ideals.

We are really unusual in this respect, not having to be slaves to our culture, but to change our culture, even in just our own home, based on what we learn and observe across the world.

[mountainash]

:scratch I thought it was that statistically, babies with African American heritage cry less.

I attributed it to black people being less susceptible to allergies and food sensitivities but then I somehow manage to tie everything to food allergies. :shifty

[Mommainrwanda]

Often it seems that babies aren't crying much because they are under-stimulated or in some cases under-nourished.
Some friends have observed that often young children are allowed to do whatever they like and are given whatever they want, but then when they get a little older they will be beaten very severely.


Rwandans believe that a baby cannot see until they are around 4 months old. Talk about under-stimulating them. The babies are cared for, but have hardly any visual interactions until it is assumed that they can "see."

I also agree with the last point. I have found "African" (Togolese and Rwandan) parenting to be rather reactive. Kids have a lot of leeway, but once they cross that line - hoo-boy, they are smacked around. I think that these cultures are, in some ways, posters for permissive parenting.

I also agree with other posters who have talked about what is valued in a particular culture. In Rwanda, anger is the ultimate sin while deference and politeness are valued. Thus, in public, Ellie Jo is clucked at and given embarrassed smiles when she has a fit over something. Silence is approved. People could almost care less if she smiles. It is more "impressive" if she will shake hands to greet them.

We teach our children cultural customs and values and they learn to be happy within that framework. African babies do learn how to happy within their society, just like most American babies learn a measure of happiness. The thing I find more important to measure is the strength of the relational connection. Do African babies have more sense of the relationships around them? There's food for thought... :think

[Amahoro]

I was hoping you'd reply, MiR... :) I never knew about the '4 month seeing' belief; but it certainly explains some behaviours I saw with babies when I was over there.

(And I agree with the reactive parenting & values according to culture; HUGE differences between White Australian & Rwandan culture there!).

[Annainprogress]

Also, in Kenya they might breastfeed for longer than most "Western" parents, but they don't exclusively breastfeed. As soon as baby is born, dad is down the local shop buying a tin of formula and a tin of gruel. If you don't then you're seen as being too poor to provide for the baby, so it's a measure of pride to buy them. For those who are poor or educated, they might only get through that one tin until they introduce solids "properly", but they do get given it almost from birth.

[Amahoro]

Also, in Kenya they might breastfeed for longer than most "Western" parents, but they don't exclusively breastfeed. As soon as baby is born, dad is down the local shop buying a tin of formula and a tin of gruel. If you don't then you're seen as being too poor to provide for the baby, so it's a measure of pride to buy them. For those who are poor or educated, they might only get through that one tin until they introduce solids "properly", but they do get given it almost from birth.

I volunteered with a tutor group for refugees for a few years & we found this a lot with families we worked with. There was definitely a perception that using formula implied wealth and/or better 'integration' into Australian society.

[raining_kisses]

I don't have any first hand knowledge to contribute to the conversation, but I did want bring up with Babies documentary. My first thoughts upon finishing the movie was "the African baby was so much happier then the other babies". I figured it was all the baby wearing, breastfeeding, and general closeness in proximity to the mother. That movie didn't go too far into the toddler years, so it doesn't show how he was treated once he got a little older.

Like I said, not much to add to the convo but I thought I would throw that out there. :wink

[NeshamaMama]

I don't have any first hand knowledge to contribute to the conversation, but I did want bring up with Babies documentary. My first thoughts upon finishing the movie was "the African baby was so much happier then the other babies". I figured it was all the baby wearing, breastfeeding, and general closeness in proximity to the mother. That movie didn't go too far into the toddler years, so it doesn't show how he was treated once he got a little older.

Like I said, not much to add to the convo but I thought I would throw that out there. :wink

I was thinking of the Babies documentary as well! The African baby did seem so happy - as opposed to that Mongolian baby who was just constantly left alone in their house and then smacked at when he got into mischief with no supervision. :doh I felt so bad for that little one every time they showed him!

[anotherone]

I'm from South Africa originally. While babies are breastfed (not so much anymore, because moms are often sent home with a tin of formula from the hospital), carried on mom's back and are cosleeping at home, it often doesn't extend beyond infancy. Like PP said, many of these things are done because there are no other alternatives. Poorer people often cosleep because there is only one room for the entire family. Moms carry their babies on their backs because there are no roads to use strollers easily (plus, who can afford them?). The African people who are able to live a more Western lifestyle often adopt the Western norms for child rearing. Babies sleep in their own rooms, CIO and are bottle fed formula. :shrug3 "Discipline" is severe and children are beaten mercilessly. Looking from an outside perspective, I guess it's easy to look at the positives and forget all about the negatives. But, you simply don't see the whole when you pick and choose which parts of a culture reflects the entire culture. We used to drive through townships often and you see little children (aged 2, 3 or sometimes even younger) wandering around unsupervised. I advise you to use caution when reading the spoiler...

One of dh's coworkers accidentally hit a 2 yo with his car at 4am one morning, when a 4yo and 2yo ran across the highway on their own. He saw the 4yo in the dark, slammed on his breaks, but it was too late. There are news reports of children dying from preventable accidents almost monthly.

[hey mommy]

This is a fascinating topic. Thank you for bringing it up.

I have nothing to offer. Just wanted to say say it was fascinating. I would love to hear more about parenting in the cultures that have been mentioned.

[tazmom]

I was thinking of the Babies documentary as well! The African baby did seem so happy - as opposed to that Mongolian baby who was just constantly left alone in their house and then smacked at when he got into mischief with no supervision. :doh I felt so bad for that little one every time they showed him!
The African baby did look really happy. So did the American baby. They picked and chose what to show. Just like they weren't going to use a CIO, spanking babies, and early daycare type family from America, they weren't going to show babies being neglected or siblings being beaten in Africa. It's a cute movie about babies, not a documentary about gritty realities.

"Discipline" is severe and children are beaten mercilessly. Looking from an outside perspective, I guess it's easy to look at the positives and forget all about the negatives. But, you simply don't see the whole when you pick and choose which parts of a culture reflects the entire culture. We used to drive through townships often and you see little children (aged 2, 3 or sometimes even younger) wandering around unsupervised.
When watching more realistic documentaries about life in Africa, this is what stands out to me. Child abuse and neglect is rampant and excepted as normal part of everyday life.

[Rabbit]

Traditional African culture ended during the colonization era. African families across the continent are in a similar position as Native Americans.

[tazmom]

Traditional African culture ended during the colonization era. African families across the continent are in a similar position as Native Americans.

Very good point. I'm still learning about the colonization and how it effected the current culture and politics. I'm sure with your background, you know a lot more about this than I do. I'd be really interested in your thoughts.

[Rabbit]

I learned a lot about the country I was in (Burkina Faso) and some about the slave trade. Visited an old stone slave port once. Saw first hand how the French school system changed traditional life. Burkina, before it was a country, was part of a large and rich kingdom. Now it's' just a tiny, impoverished state, a mix of several tribes, with none of their original ways of making a living.

[NeshamaMama]

The African baby did look really happy. So did the American baby. They picked and chose what to show. Just like they weren't going to use a CIO, spanking babies, and early daycare type family from America, they weren't going to show babies being neglected or siblings being beaten in Africa. It's a cute movie about babies, not a documentary about gritty realities.

I definitely agree. I was just bringing up the contrast between that and how the other baby was presented, where they seemed to have no qualms about showing him tied to a swaddling board, leashed to the bed with a rope while the parents where out etc. It was just an interesting contrast in how babies are treated in infancy - I don't doubt that as that African baby gets older his life would seem much harsher.

[Sonata]

My sister got back last spring from being in the PeaceCorps in Cameroon, and how babies and young children were treated was one of the hardest things for her to see.

From her stories, I can see how things would look positive to AP-ing American mamas, like people have been pointing out - babywearing, breastfeeding, etc. In her culture, children should not be heard, and even tiny infants were shushed mercilessly. It sounds like for infants, that would be putting a hand over a crying mouth, and for older babies on up it meant a quick smack. She said even little babies learned not to cry -- but it had nothing to do with "happiness." She still shakes her head sometimes about how much her little nephew knows and can say, since adults there didn't speak much to young children, and certainly didn't encourage them to speak back.

When my parents visited my sister, they wanted to bring a toy back for my son, but sadly said that ALL the children had to play with was rusty cans and old tires, which they would roll down the road. Sometimes they were put to work all day breaking stones apart to sell as gravel.

Perhaps at least they develop ingenuity and creativity in play! :shrug3 :sigh

[mommychem]

:scratch I thought it was that statistically, babies with African American heritage cry less.

I attributed it to black people being less susceptible to allergies and food sensitivities but then I somehow manage to tie everything to food allergies. :shifty

Well, it must be my DH's white side that causes my babies to cry :shifty. From my experience, most babies with African American heritage are certainly NOT being "AP'ed."

Seriously, how do you measure happiness? :shrug I've always seen the quotes validating AP in African cultures, but I thought, "I'm sure there are so many other, worse issues going on about which we know nothing." I had not considered the effects of colonization... :think

[CapeTownMommy]

I'm from South Africa originally. While babies are breastfed (not so much anymore, because moms are often sent home with a tin of formula from the hospital), carried on mom's back and are cosleeping at home, it often doesn't extend beyond infancy. Like PP said, many of these things are done because there are no other alternatives. Poorer people often cosleep because there is only one room for the entire family. Moms carry their babies on their backs because there are no roads to use strollers easily (plus, who can afford them?). The African people who are able to live a more Western lifestyle often adopt the Western norms for child rearing. Babies sleep in their own rooms, CIO and are bottle fed formula. :shrug3 "Discipline" is severe and children are beaten mercilessly. Looking from an outside perspective, I guess it's easy to look at the positives and forget all about the negatives. But, you simply don't see the whole when you pick and choose which parts of a culture reflects the entire culture. We used to drive through townships often and you see little children (aged 2, 3 or sometimes even younger) wandering around unsupervised.

:yes3

Unfortunately this is very true. Breastfeeding is still very common among the less-westernised African families, but babies are started on solids (usually cornmeal porridge) as early as 3 weeks of age. A lot of AP ideals (co-sleeping, babywearing etc.) are better for babies and are the "natural" way of doing things - but that doesn't mean the parents who do these things culturally ascribe to AP principles. Kids are beaten (as are women) in a lot of African cultures, and it's regarded as not only normal but it's weird to do anything else.

Spoiler about wife abuse:

When I was a teenager I remember driving with my dad in our car past a man who was threatening to beat his wife on the sidewalk. They were screaming at each other, he lift his hand to beat her, she ran. My dad stopped the car to interfere and the woman got unbelievably angry at him, how dare he interfere between her and her husband. That's how "normal" it is.

Kids are integrated into the family from the start, there's less of a "seen and not heard" than in western culture, but they also have to pull their weight and do chores from a very very early age. The 2yo and 4yo that anotherone referred to in her spoiler were most likely on their way to fetch something for a parent. And when they misbehave they are physically chastened.

So I don't believe co-sleeping and babywearing are the only reasons why these babies may cry less. I think a gently parented baby who sleeps in her own room is likely to be happier than a co-sleeping baby who gets hit when she doesn't do what her parents expect. :(

[Aerynne]

I studied nutrition in college. My professor had gone to Guatamala (okay, granted, that's not Africa- I get that). They had done a nutrition intervention program with some poorer families and the moms actually ended up hating it to some degree because they couldn't handle their kids behavior when they were well-nourished. Before they could go to the market to sell their stuff and the kids would just sit there quietly with the mom literally all day long. Once they got the nutrition, they ran around, were noisy, etc, and the moms had no idea how to handle that. :bheart I saw the pictures- they were astounding (before and after- they looked like different kids from a nourishment perspective). Poorly nourished babies (and not that every baby in Africa is poorly nourished or anything) are conserving energy to grow, so they don't cry as much.

[CapeTownMommy]

I studied nutrition in college. My professor had gone to Guatamala (okay, granted, that's not Africa- I get that). They had done a nutrition intervention program with some poorer families and the moms actually ended up hating it to some degree because they couldn't handle their kids behavior when they were well-nourished. Before they could go to the market to sell their stuff and the kids would just sit there quietly with the mom literally all day long. Once they got the nutrition, they ran around, were noisy, etc, and the moms had no idea how to handle that. :bheart I saw the pictures- they were astounding (before and after- they looked like different kids from a nourishment perspective). Poorly nourished babies (and not that every baby in Africa is poorly nourished or anything) are conserving energy to grow, so they don't cry as much.

:bheart

[Bonnie]

I wonder if anyone's ever studied that before - a correlation between an uptick in domestic violence with the change in nutritional status? :think

[mountainash]

I studied nutrition in college. My professor had gone to Guatamala (okay, granted, that's not Africa- I get that). They had done a nutrition intervention program with some poorer families and the moms actually ended up hating it to some degree because they couldn't handle their kids behavior when they were well-nourished. Before they could go to the market to sell their stuff and the kids would just sit there quietly with the mom literally all day long. Once they got the nutrition, they ran around, were noisy, etc, and the moms had no idea how to handle that. :bheart I saw the pictures- they were astounding (before and after- they looked like different kids from a nourishment perspective). Poorly nourished babies (and not that every baby in Africa is poorly nourished or anything) are conserving energy to grow, so they don't cry as much.

Yikes. That's a crazy thought.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

I wonder if anyone's ever studied that before - a correlation between an uptick in domestic violence with the change in nutritional status? :think

I know there have been prison studies and public schools where they incorporated more nutritional meals and saw a decrease in misbehavior.

[Bonnie]

Yikes. That's a crazy thought.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------



I know there have been prison studies and public schools where they incorporated more nutritional meals and saw a decrease in misbehavior.

Yeah, this would need to differentiate between populations where there were SAD-induced behavior issues and those with full-on malnutrition with associated lethargy and similar.

[Aerynne]

Yikes. That's a crazy thought.

---------- Post added at 04:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------



I know there have been prison studies and public schools where they incorporated more nutritional meals and saw a decrease in misbehavior.

Agreeing with Bonnie here. With kids who get a lot of calories but not a lot of vegetables, they behave better with quality food. Kids who don't get enough calories don't have the energy to run around and be crazy- feeding them gives them energy.

I'm also wondering if they also gave the parents supplemental nutrition (the study only fed the kids) if the parents would have more energy to deal with the kids' more energy.

[Victorious]

I know someone referenced less food allergies in those with African heritage. I don't know about all fa but aren't Africans very prone to milk allergy?

[Aerynne]

I know someone referenced less food allergies in those with African heritage. I don't know about all fa but aren't Africans very prone to milk allergy?

Most black Africans are lactose intolerant. I don't know about the allergies- it's a different mechanism (I can explain it if you want, or not if you don't want).

[mommychem]

I know someone referenced less food allergies in those with African heritage. I don't know about all fa but aren't Africans very prone to milk allergy?

I believe I've heard this before also. However, with all the dairy allergies I see on GCM, I've started to wonder... :think. The allergies here could be to store-bought ultra-pasteurized milk though. :shrug

[domesticzookeeper]

re: dairy

Worldwide, populations of people who can digest dairy are significantly outnumbered by those who can't. Most humans stop producing the enzymes necessary to digest milk around the age of 4; this is especially true in places (like Africa and East Asia) where dairy simply isn't a regular part of the diet :shrug3

[Rabbit]

Death comes fast, and accurate diagnosis and medical care is rare. There is no way to know what allergies affect African populations.