Is the "W" sitting position really so bad?

[Mum2Es]

Chicken sits that way habitually. I've never bothered to correct her because I'm not convinced it's a big deal. :shifty But I watched her doing "seat drops" on the trampoline this morning into that position and I cringed as I watched, thinking about what tremendous sudden pressure she must be putting on her hips and knees, both swivelled outward, as she dropped down hard. I tried to teach her to do it with her legs stretched straight out in front but she resisted and didn't want to do it at all if she couldn't do it her way.

What do you think? Do I need to try and correct this habit?

[hey mommy]

:popcorn S sits that way all the time too.

I think I'll ask his chiro next time we go..

[kwisie]

My kids all sit that way. But I don't think they've done the trampoline drop into that position. Wow, it seems like that would hurt. *cringe*

[RubySlippers]

It can put tremendous strain on the knees and hips. A trampoline may absorb much of the impact. If she falls in that position on unforgiving surfaces then it could become a problem as she ages.

[MaiMama]

I remember sitting like that (lying down, actually), and my folks were just impressed I was so flexible.

However, when I was a Special Ed teacher, some of the experts were concerned about the W-sitting one of my students was doing, and said it was an indication of a problem in a five-year-old.:shrug3

It hurts to think if trampolining on it, though.

[swimming with sharks]

our ped noticed that ds1 sits like that often and she mentioned it to me to try to have him sit other ways. I was just noticing the other day he is still doing lots of sitting like that. When I saw your post I thought :think why is it bad and this is what I found. link broken don't know what else is there

http://www. laurenwelle.com/2008/06/13/just-say-no-to-w-sitting/

crossing mid-line is pretty important stuff (:) understatement!) . I'm going to start paying attention to how he crosses his mid-line and see if I see any problems. :yes

[relizabeth]

Ooh, I'm just :shiver at the idea of landing in that position.

Yeah, if your alarm bells aren't ringing you might still just want to check out some simple stuff to do at home. My kiddo is ever so slightly low-tone, and he doesn't w sit, but we work with him on other stuff, and it's helping.

[mokamoto]

our ped noticed that ds1 sits like that often and she mentioned it to me to try to have him sit other ways. I was just noticing the other day he is still doing lots of sitting like that. When I saw your post I thought :think why is it bad and this is what I found. link broken don't know what else is there

http://www. laurenwelle.com/2008/06/13/just-say-no-to-w-sitting/

crossing mid-line is pretty important stuff (:) understatement!) . I'm going to start paying attention to how he crosses his mid-line and see if I see any problems. :yes

THat helps a lot. Thanks for the link!!! :heart

[NovelMama]

My SIL is a physical therapist and said it can cause a lot of issues as they develop if they sit that way habitually. AJ was like that and it took probably 6 months of chronic reminders and repositioning before she stopped.

[Auroras mom]

Not onyl can it cause issues, it is also typically indicative of existing issues.

People who prefer to sit this way generally have low muscle tone (too flexible and floppy) and poor core strength.

Children who choose this as their preferred seated position need to be pushed to not only sit differently, but also to strengthen their core and overall muscle tone.

[sage]

W-Sitting messes up one's flexibility, permanently (Source: International Gymnast magazine; I can look up the issue and year if anyone is particularly interested). I've used a half-w sit since childhood, and my ability to turn my hip out in the w-sitting leg is completely shot. If I were you, I would make an effort to have your child sit in other ways. I monitor my own child closely because of my own issues.

[tigerlily]

I'm going to ask mil if dh sat like that -- his feet majorly roll to the inside (I think if he would practice pulling up his feet right he could stop some of the rolling.)

[kwisie]

Would that make a kid not want to do things like ride a tricycle? :think

[~yogamom~]

My 2-1/2 yr old sits this way habitually. I remind her to "criss cross applesauce" as a way of changing stance, but she always chooses this seat first.

I am worried about what it means and what it will cause.

[Pearl In Oyster]

C sits this way. I can remember my sis and I sitting this way when we were young. I do have the knee and hip problems mentioned by some of the commenters on the Laura Welle article.

I'm glad this has been brought to my attention!

[mipennsn]

I have not read the link, but my experience with a W sitter that it probably needs to be evaluated and/or corrected.

Ds2 who just had surgery to correct a bowed tibia (not connected) was a chronic W sitter. He also has a weak core. We have been working on that since he was just over 2 yrs old. Our PTA at the time explained that it was a way to compensate for a weak core. It totally can affect bike ridding and many other milestones.

I haven't had any other W sitters, but watch out for it with my kids now that I am aware of it.

[holmama]

um, I may sound totally ignorant and probably should just consult Dr Google, but what is w sitting? is it sitting with your legs stretched out in front, kinda to either side?

[curlymopmom]

Legs bent, with feet next to your bum. Not sure if my description is helpful. A quick google search will get you tons of images. :tu

[Marsha]

My oldest with SPD did the W sit forever. I, too, saw nothing wrong with it. She has problems with her core, with crossing her midline and is 9 and doesn't ride a bike. I don't know if repositioning her sitting would have helped, but its almost impossible to get her to do core stuff now.

[blondie]

I can't even think about sitting like that without my legs aching.

[Chaos Coordinator]

interesting :think i can think of a few kids from school/daycare when i was younger who were w-sitters and were lanky, floppy, and had poor muscle tone.

[DancingWithElves]

Not onyl can it cause issues, it is also typically indicative of existing issues.

People who prefer to sit this way generally have low muscle tone (too flexible and floppy) and poor core strength.

Children who choose this as their preferred seated position need to be pushed to not only sit differently, but also to strengthen their core and overall muscle tone.

:up this

however, with a disclaimer :)

at this young age change is generally quick and painless for all involved, but not necessarily.

as mentioned before, it's not accidental.
the example i use is this:
imagine me say it in the russian jewish grandma voice ;) --Joey, you hafta stand up straight, honey. Common now, shoulders back, lift you chin. That's betta.
Except the minute Joey is out of granny's sight he is back to slouching, head forward, round shoulders position. Why? Is he being mindless? Is he defiant? Is he trying to irritate his grandmother? Well, all of the above may be true, for a day. After that multiple systems of the body become involved. It's quite complex really. Many muscles, bones, digestion, nervous, and even the endocrine systems are all involved :yes It's no longer as simple as "Stand up straight. And slap on some deodorant while you are at it."

For a young child, a few visits with chiro/craniosacral therapist may be all you need. A few lifestyle changes. Possibly some PT or exercises at home.

I have had severe postural deficits, and to correct them I've had tons of PT (least effective), chiro (effective) and bodywork (most effective). PT mostly just told me to stand up straight and I'll be fine :sh5 :doh

Sitting itself will produce no *immediate* harm to joints or muscles, so no worries :hug For most adults, who may not even be capable of sitting this way, the strong internal rotation of the hip, and (esp. if shoes are worn) pressure on the knee could be very uncomfortable and damaging. A young child is in no danger, even in the trampoline :) (it makes sense that she would do that, b/c one is even more unstable on a trampoline, and this way she can keep her balance better).

I'd start working on plank walking a lot :yes ball and bean bag passing from hand to hand. Swinging self on a swing by pushing with legs, and bouncing on a see-saw are great trunk strength builders :tu

[Auroras mom]

Would that make a kid not want to do things like ride a tricycle? :think


Low muscle tone, poor core strength, and difficulty with motor planning can definitely make a child reticent to try things like that.

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

Just echoing what the other mamas have said. Dd is a W sitter because of her other issues, and her PT/OT are really working to get her out of the habit. (She's a bit single-minded, though :shifty ). She has a weak core, balance problems, her hip muscles are loose so her legs flop into W when she attempts to crawl, she rarely reaches across midline and doesn't turn at the waist.

[NeshamaMama]

Mayah had hip dysplasia, so not only was it a sign of something was wrong, it was also dangerous for her to sit that way once she came out of harness because it was Pulling her hips out of socket. We would gently help her move her legs and say "feet front!" and it literally only took 3 or 4 times before she would do it on her own when we said "feet front". She was about 12 months when we taught her. She still occasionally sits that way but corrects immediately when we ask her.

[LadyofReason]

Not arguing that it is damaging/indicative of a problem, but if it's so wrong, why do so many kids do it?

[~yogamom~]

So, my 2-1/2 yr old has always sat this way (I correct her, bu tit's still her preferred position). But she doesn't have any tone issues as far as I can tell-- very strong, rides a tricycle on her own (steering still interesting but muscle is there!), loves doing yoga with me, a good climber, coordinated.

She is pigeon-toed. I wonder if those are related.

[yellowheart]

"W" sitting DOES NOT always indicate a problem. I have two kiddos who do this. We did have it checked out when DS was little b/c he did not walk until 19 mos. and a OT tried like heck (and gave up) to get him to stop, but, he still W sits to this day. He even does it while sitting in a chair at a restaurant. Neither of my children have ANY kind of developmental problems. NONE whatsoever...physical, learning, etc.

On another note my DH who is 47 years old and my FIL who is 79 can both still "W" sit as can 1/2 of my BIL's and SIL's. :giggle

[justbreathe]

This is a very interesting conversation! I didn't know that anything could be wrong with sitting like this. :think I often sit like that, and did as a child, and I tend to have a very weak core. I have a very difficult time sitting with my legs straight in front of me. Bear also sits like this typically and has low muscle tone all over.

:popcorn

[kwisie]

I wonder something. If hypermobility runs somewhere in the family, could that be associated with W-sitting?

[ReedleBeetle]

Few things indicate a definite problem 100% of the time. It doesn't mean that the majority of the time, those issues do indicate a problem....and so they should always be checked. :)

[DancingWithElves]

i have hypermobile joints :) which is an abnormality in itself, and causes me some trouble. so, i can W sit, just b/c i can. it's def. something that should be checked out. i'm curious if yellowheart's kids *can* sit comfortably in other ways, and just prefer to sit W. that's also a big indicator.

[kwisie]

Oh, so if they *can* sit other ways, and the W position is just one way of sitting, that's less of a worry than if that's the only way they sit? (Yet, it still should be corrected, right?)

[NeshamaMama]

Yes, to the hypermobility thing. I have "benign hypermobility" (EDS III) and despite the "benign" descriptor it still causes me tons and tons of issues. Even if it's "just" hypermobility it should definitely be checked out and at the very least monitored by the parent through childhood. And yes, many types of hypermobility are genetic so a family history could certainly hold clues. :yes

[ReedleBeetle]

I would not go so far as to say that if they can sit other ways, it is not a problem. My son *never* w sits. Never has. Yet he also has issues with core strength, crossing the midline, and hypermobility of the joints...so just like it doesn't indicate a problem 100% of the time, not doing it, or doing it less, don't necessarily indicate there is not a problem. If I child w sits with regularity at all, I would seriously look at getting them evaluated. If they did it very occasionally and rarely sat that way but did do it on occasion, then I would only get it checked if I saw other indications of a problem. More then 15-20% of the time though...I would get it checked regardless.

[holmama]

oh gah! I just tried to W sit. the pain! my knees and shins and knees and ankles and knees! ok so I have bad knees :shifty I am pretty sure my DS crosses his midline on a regular basis and so far he mostly sits with his legs curled in front of him, indian style or something similar. The little girl I nanny does occasionally w sit. But she is super strong, coordinated, athletic, etc. She is 2.5 and has toned arms and a six pack, all natural. I doubt there is anything wrong with her but am definitely curious to start making note of how she sits!

[yellowheart]

i have hypermobile joints :) which is an abnormality in itself, and causes me some trouble. so, i can W sit, just b/c i can. it's def. something that should be checked out. i'm curious if yellowheart's kids *can* sit comfortably in other ways, and just prefer to sit W. that's also a big indicator.


Yes. They can sit other ways without problems or discomfort. I feel that W sitting comes automatic and is their preference. But, yes, they can sit "normally" for long periods in a variety of ways and do so without complaint.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------

I would not go so far as to say that if they can sit other ways, it is not a problem. My son *never* w sits. Never has. Yet he also has issues with core strength, crossing the midline, and hypermobility of the joints...so just like it doesn't indicate a problem 100% of the time, not doing it, or doing it less, don't necessarily indicate there is not a problem. If I child w sits with regularity at all, I would seriously look at getting them evaluated. If they did it very occasionally and rarely sat that way but did do it on occasion, then I would only get it checked if I saw other indications of a problem. More then 15-20% of the time though...I would get it checked regardless.

Getting it doubled checked is always a good thing. :yes

The only time we ever had DS evaluated was 3 years ago and that was when he worked with a "teacher"/OT from the local infant-child development center b/c of our concerns with him not walking. He was "knee" walking though at the same speed toddlers his same age could walk on their feet. She gave up on trying to get him to correct it b/c she said there doesn't seem to be a problem. We lost services after 4 months b/c they said DS didn't need them. DD (age 3) we have never had an evaluation done and I don't plan to. She's already in gymnastics and can walk across the beam and swing and roll on the bars. She is like a monkey. I think gymnastics is going to be her sport.

[MomtoJGJ]

subbing.... bbl

[NeshamaMama]

Yes. They can sit other ways without problems or discomfort. I feel that W sitting comes automatic and is their preference. But, yes, they can sit "normally" for long periods in a variety of ways and do so without complaint.

---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:00 PM ----------



Getting it doubled checked is always a good thing. :yes

The only time we ever had DS evaluated was 3 years ago and that was when he worked with a "teacher"/OT from the local infant-child development center b/c of our concerns with him not walking. He was "knee" walking though at the same speed toddlers his same age could walk on their feet. She gave up on trying to get him to correct it b/c she said there doesn't seem to be a problem. We lost services after 4 months b/c they said DS didn't need them. DD (age 3) we have never had an evaluation done and I don't plan to. She's already in gymnastics and can walk across the beam and swing and roll on the bars. She is likely a monkey. I think gymnastics is going to be her sport.

If you suspect that your DD is hypermobile at all I would STRONGLY suggest that you be very, very careful having her in gymnastics, especially at that age. I danced for years and it was horrible for my body, because I was so flexible and didn't know how to control my different muscle groups enough to keep from hyperextending. (I wasn't diagnosed until I was almost 16.) There was also a lot of pressure to "push" my flexibility from instructors, since that's a pretty big focus in dance and gymnastics. It can be done safely, but not until a child can understand and control their body and muscle movements enough to guard against it. Just be very careful. :hug

[yellowheart]

If you suspect that your DD is hypermobile at all I would STRONGLY suggest that you be very, very careful having her in gymnastics, especially at that age. I danced for years and it was horrible for my body, because I was so flexible and didn't know how to control my different muscle groups enough to keep from hyperextending. (I wasn't diagnosed until I was almost 16.) There was also a lot of pressure to "push" my flexibility from instructors, since that's a pretty big focus in dance and gymnastics. It can be done safely, but not until a child can understand and control their body and muscle movements enough to guard against it. Just be very careful. :hug


Other than the W sitting I have not noticed any other signs of hypermobility at all. I only threw in the gymnastics bit b/c of the talk in the thread about muscle tone and lack thereof. DD has good muscle tone and is very strong. There have been no other signs of hypermobility in either of my children. But, I will talk to the gymnastics coaches here and have them to keep an eye out. I work at the Y that DD takes lessons at and know the ladies down there quite well. Both of the main coaches are well trained and taught with Bart Conner and Nadia this summer. I have no doubt B&Y would respect my decisions as a parent.

[ReedleBeetle]

We are having a general conversation about "W" sitting. If you don't feel like a part applies to you, then you can ignore it. :) I can't answer for others, but I do reply to some of the things you have said, Yellowheart, not as a point to *you* specifically :no, but simply because I don't want other parents that are concerned about it to brush it off because of things like their kids being able to sit other ways or being in gymnastics. :)

For those interested, my son has what I thought was really good tone. He is SUPER strong. If anything I thought he has hypertonic issue. Nope. :)

[yellowheart]

We are having a general conversation about "W" sitting. If you don't feel like a part applies to you, then you can ignore it. :) I can't answer for others, but I do reply to some of the things you have said, Yellowheart, not as a point to *you* specifically :no, but simply because I don't want other parents that are concerned about it to brush it off because of things like their kids being able to sit other ways or being in gymnastics. :)

For those interested, my son has what I thought was really good tone. He is SUPER strong. If anything I thought he has hypertonic issue. Nope. :)


:hug I totally get what you're saying. :heart

I was thinking the exact opposite. I didn't want mamas to automatically think there was something wrong with their kiddos simply b/c they may occasionally W sit or do so on a regular basis. We didn't immediately brush it off either and that is why we got DS evaluated when he was little little. I will definitely second the concept of getting you child evaluated just to make sure. I think I will bow out of the convo and will only respond if I think I can add to the discussion. I'm not upset, but, think my usefulness here is over since I don't have a SN child. :heart

[MomtoJGJ]

I sat for most of my life in the w position. It was the ONLY way I sat until I was in college... It was uncomfortable sitting that way on a bed, and that was my seat in my dorm room. That was why I changed.

I have never had mobility issues of any sort. I've always had awesome core strength.

Now I do not know about crossing the midline and that stuff... I'm about to go look at that. I've never actually researched the "bad stuff" about W sitting, soI'll go read all of what it could point to.

I have no physical issues from or causing my W sitting that I know of. I can still sit that way.

---------- Post added at 03:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:19 PM ----------

ok... after reading that article. I am not uncoordinated. I started riding a 2-wheel bike with no training wheels at 5. I was in karate for 7 years with no issues.

I still haven't looked at midline stuff and what that might imply?

[DancingWithElves]

:giggle i'd say you are a good example of ppl doing things just b/c they can then :)

and just so we are clear, strength the way we mean it in this discussion is far more subtle than how many sit-ups you can do. i, for one, could do more and faster than most of my classmates in gym, or whatever. same goes for my legs. my arms were just about average for a girl ;) *however* i have always had significant strength issues, which really is more of a muscle imbalance, and they came out in the ways i walked, stood, sat, etc. i would say for sure this is something that needs testing for and every VERY strong children (mine is currently swinging on a bar in his room like a little orangutan :lol ) can have significant "invisible" muscle imbalances that can explain the oddest of things.

examples: ds can do :up better than anyone his age that i've ever known. but he can't button things and it's hard for him to hold utensils, b/c his finger grip is weak :hunh how in the world is his grip on the bar is so strong, and on a button or a spoon so weak? it's odd, i know, but it's true.
ds wiggles when sitting straight in a hard chair. this is a core strength issue. again, he can do amazing things with his body and is very very athletic.
as bodywork therapist i saw athletes with very strong bodies who had postural issues, due to otherwise strong muscles being defacilitated by a dysfunction of some sort. rotator cuff being a prime example: most of the time these muscles are too weak or diseased, even when they are used all the time and they can pitch/hit/throw just fine.

[ReedleBeetle]

Thank you, Irene! You said that very well! :yes

[kwisie]

So, hmm, I guess I should bring this up to the pediatrician? Would that be who would want to know? :think

[Jessica]

N sits like this a lot, and she has ASD and low muscle tone. I would talk to your pedi.

[Mum2Es]

interesting :think i can think of a few kids from school/daycare when i was younger who were w-sitters and were lanky, floppy, and had poor muscle tone.

Chicken certainly isn't floppy, and doesn't seem to have any other problems, BUT she was born with clicky hips and had low muscle tone as a baby. No sign of that now, but I'm wondering...:think

at this young age change is generally quick and painless for all involved, but not necessarily.

What about in a fiery, oppositional 3 yo? :shifty

Alright, you've all convinced me that it's probably a good idea to try and encourage Chicken to sit feet forward. I had a chat with her about it this morning.

We've also just started gymnastics, but it's not REAL gymnastics, there's no emphasis on flexibility, it's all about strength and having fun. This kids gym that she goes to was wonderful when she had low tone at about 12 months (we went for 6 months or so then quit until now). I'll talk to them today about the W sitting and get some thoughts on improving core strength and making sure she can cross her midline.

Thanks all! :heart

[MomtoJGJ]

ok... I still don't understand the crossing the midline thing. Every example I've seen was things that use both hands. Like one example was typing. Is "crossing the midline" a mental thing? I was thinking it was physical. I don't cross over when typing, but I do use both hands at the same time. Another example I saw was riding a bike. Again, I don't cross anything then, obviously, but I can.

And yes, I know core strength is different than just being strong. I've done "core strength tests" in the past and have been at the top. Of course, who knows if those are accurate or whatever. I've never seen a specialist or anything.

I guess I was just adding my experience in to say that it is completely possible to be fine in all other areas and just sit that way because it feels normal. So while it's probably a good idea to have things checked out, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something's wrong. And if the doc said all was well, I'd drop it while still watching to make sure everything is happening that needs to happen.

[yellowheart]

I guess I was just adding my experience in to say that it is completely possible to be fine in all other areas and just sit that way because it feels normal. So while it's probably a good idea to have things checked out, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that something's wrong. And if the doc said all was well, I'd drop it while still watching to make sure everything is happening that needs to happen.

This is what I was trying to say yesterday IRT to my children. You said it much better. Thank you. I really wasn't trying to encourage people to be flippant about the subject. This thread has been helpful to me b/c now I know of some things to put in my general knowledge bank.

[mrsd]

I had wondered why sitting in that position was discouraged. DS didn't sit in that position, but when I helped at his school, the teacher would remind children who did to sit "Criss-cross applesauce"...thanks to the wise mommas here, now I know!

[ReedleBeetle]

Crossing the mid-line has to do with more than actually having your arms and legs cross the center of your body. It has to do with your brains pathways crossing the mid-line of your brain as well. Bicycling does that, because it requires the coordination of the right and left side of the body (as well as the upper and lower halves of the body). Jumping jacks cross the mid-line, I believe, even though the action itself does not. Crossing the mid-line can also be helped by activities that truly DO cross the mid-line of the body though. Drawing large figure 8's with one hand, crossing over the opposite side of the body, and then switching sides. Doing "wrap-ups" where you cross the mid-line with your body parts all the way down, etc.

I most definitely agree that not every child or person that W sits has issues....just like every child that doesn't, isn't necessarily free of issues My son is a good example of the latter. I tried to get him to W sit yesterday and he could not do it and said, "That really hurts!! OUCH!" :shifty However, W sitting is more often associated with other issues, even if on the more "minor" scale, and that is all I'm saying. :shifty

---------- Post added at 09:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 AM ----------

Crawling is also a mid-line activity and is really important for development of right/left coordination. Babies who don't crawl or crawl a short period of time are also watched for issues. :)

[DancingWithElves]

I had wondered why sitting in that position was discouraged. DS didn't sit in that position, but when I helped at his school, the teacher would remind children who did to sit "Criss-cross applesauce"...thanks to the wise mommas here, now I know!

actually, i have a big problem with ppl preventing healthy kids from sitting on their leg, sideways, or criss-cross applesauce. they are most likely doing it for a good reason, and if not, i feel they should have the freedom to choose :) a very hypermobile child (as some pregnant women) will throw out their SI joint sitting tailor style, but that's not very common at all :no

if there is one uniformly wrong way for a child to sit, it's FOR STRETCHES OF TIME IN A HARD CHAIR :glare :soapbox that's why we get sudden onset "scoliosis" after the kids have been made to do so in school for a few years :( if they are allowed to move around, sit on a leg, tailor style, or in other quirky ways, the damage is minimal or none at all! :yes

[ReedleBeetle]

Very interesting! Thank you!

[yellowheart]

Okay. So this morning I'm eating a bit of humble pie. Apparently I may have a SN child. I was informed yesterday by DS Sunday School teacher that she believes that he has the markers for Aspergers. She has a degree in early childhood education and has worked in the field for several years. She did a checklist on DS. :sigh I only put this here so if you see me hanging out in the special needs area you won't :scratch. This completely caught me off guard.

FWIW...Since so many people on DH side can W sit....I don't think the "possible" Aspergers has anything to do with the W sitting.

[aleigh]

I think a lot of kids prefer to sit that way, but you should correct it.

DD was born with hip dysplasia, so we always correct it. It's how she would choose to sit all the time, but we just say, "Fix your legs" & she changes them.

[DancingWithElves]

:hugheart sorry to hear that yellowheart

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

I most definitely agree that not every child or person that W sits has issues....just like every child that doesn't, isn't necessarily free of issues My son is a good example of the latter. I tried to get him to W sit yesterday and he could not do it and said, "That really hurts!! OUCH!" :shifty However, W sitting is more often associated with other issues, even if on the more "minor" scale, and that is all I'm saying.

Right. My dd has issues and she W sits because of them. My sister, however, is 33 years old and has W sat all her life (or even made Ls with her legs - ouch!) and has no problems at all. So :shrug . Like ReedleBeetle said, it doesn't always indicate a problem but it can.

[Karen]

Logan was a w sitter. He had a pt for gross motor delay and she highly encouraged us to correct his sitting. He is still crazy flexible but also very strong and core strong. He is just a bit of an anomaly. But since there is still long term damage to consider, we correct his sitting.

[Katigre]

I can speak to the w-sitting and the way doing it derailed some of my DS's gross motor skills until we got PT to address the issues. My story is a bit long, but I hope it is helpful.

Background: There are a number of people on both my and DH's sides of the family who have hips that naturally rotate inward (at the bone's hip socket). When I was a child I W sat b/c it was comfortable, and even as an adult I can still do it. It's only thanks to pilates/yoga that my hip tendons have been stretched enough to do things like ballet positions (hips rotated out - before I would just overrotate at the knee so my toes went out).

When DS was a baby he hit all of his gross motor milestones early and profiently - crawled well by 6 months, walked before a year, etc... We had no concerns about his physical development and wondered if we might have birthed an athletic child even though neither DH nor myself are. His fine motor development was also good, and he had no issues with crossing the midline with things.

At 2-3 years old, he started to W sit (due to the natural bone structure of his hips - thanks to our family genetics). Since I had done it as a child it didn't cross my radar as something to be cautious of, so I let him do it. Sometimes I'd try to correct it but it was his favorite way to sit 90% of the time. By the time he turned 4, I started to wonder about some of his motor skills and weaknesses he was showing. His upper body strength/coordination had dropped to the bottom half of his peers. He was still running like a toddler vs. a preschooler (he hadn't intergrated arms-legs in running motion). I asked some friends and they said kids develop at their own pace, so I didn't worry and just watched.

When he was 4.5 and W-sitting at the library (like normal) a lady accosted me (really - she was so pushy!) and told me she was a physical therapist, she saw him W sitting and it was horrible, and I needed to correct him every time so he'd break the habit. I nodded politely and then vented to a friend about her overbearing manner :giggle. But it stuck in the back of my mind and I started trying to encourage DS to sit cross-legged. Only to discover that it was very uncomfortable for him to do so - his knees stuck up way too high and he had little flexibility in his hips to rotate outward. He complained that cross legged hurt him. At this time his running style and upper body physical strength had stalled out at a 3 year old level. In some things he was quite strong (could ride a bike with training wheels well, even for a couple miles. Could walk awhile, liked to play outside). But there was a noticeable gap developing between him and his peers in terms of running and upper body coordiantion/strength.

At his 5 year old visit, I brought all of this up to his pediatrician who checked his hips and watched him run and noticed that he had a 'toe-in' (thanks to the hip's natural inward rotation) and tight outer hip muscles. She recommend physical therapy. My thoughts: "Physical therapy??? I thought that was only for kids with significant delays or who had been through a traumatic accident. DS is so typical, isn't that extreme?" But I emailed with a friend who was a PT and she concurred and gave me some more info. She recommended a pediatric physical therapist place and I made DS an appointment.

At his first appointment they assessed him and found that due to the W sitting for a few years, his outer hip muscles had gotten extremely tight andn this was why he was unable to sit crosslegged comfortably - the muscles didn't stretch that way anymore! He could rotate 75 degrees inwardly and only 30 degrees outwardly with his hips, instead of a balanced 45 degrees out/45 degrees in ratio. They also found that his core strength was weak for his age (not significantly so - they kept emphasizing that none of this was far outside of normal, but it was just enough to impact him in subtle/mild ways). Most people were surprised when I said he was doing PT b/c they didn't notice anything that warranted it in their opinion.

We did 3 months of weekly physical therapy where they focused on two things:
1. Strengthening core muscles with various exercises that are a lot like pilates :giggle. The reason his core muscles had gotten weak/hadn't developed in strength past a 3 year old's level was b/c W sitting transfers the weight/balance of the body from the core to the knees. Your stomach simply doesn't have to work as much to hold your body up if you W sit, which is why his muscles weren't getting the stimulation they needed to keep getting stronger.

2. Hip flexibility. The persistent W sitting had led to the tight hip muscles, and they did stretching exercises with exercise bands and such to increase their flexibility.

Within a few weeks of therapy he had quit W sitting :jawdrop. All without prompting from me! What I learned was that W sitting was a symptom of a deeper problem (core issues/hip issues) and not the actual problem. Once the underying issues were solved, he naturally sat in other ways. It's been months since we stopped therapy and he hasn't W sat more than a handful of times, and a quick prompt sets him into a new position that is better for his legs. It's b/c his core strength has soared and self-corrected the issues from before - when the body is in better alignment, it sits in healthier ways :yes.

I feel like the pervasive W-sitting hijacked his gross motor development for awhile, and once we addressed those issues it was able to dovetail back to where it should have been. His running stance has been developing naturally over the past few months - his arms and legs alternate and he runs with power/speed vs. the preschooler run he had earlier this year. He had enough coordination to learn to ride without training wheels at newly 5, thanks in large part to the core strengthening he did.

He can sit crosslegged comfortably and his knees don't stick up anymore (he'll always be more prone toward interior hip rotation than exterior, just like I am, but it's not impacting his choice of seating positions anymore :)).

I'm now very conscious of watching how kids sit - especially now that DD has hit an 'i want to W sit' stage (same age as DS started his habit). But we're consistent in correcting her posture/position so that she doesn't deal with the same issues as DS. If I had known then what I know now, we could have saved ourselves several months of therapy and $$$.

I also find it very VERY interesting that soon after we started the PT (which again was just physical exercises focused on core muscles/leg stuff) DS's development took off in other areas - in particular, his imaginative/creative play has soared in the months since where it had stagnated for awhile. I will always wonder if something in the physical changes he made due to therapy jumpstarted another area of his development too.

[Llee]

I just thought I'd in a bit here. Thanks to this thread, I've been correcting the girls when they do w-sitting. When we were at the docs for Dancing's 18-month check-up, the doc noticed that her feet turn in a bit when she runs and encouraged me to make sure that she doesn't W-sit, so that she won't encourage her body to develop wrongly.

Now that I'm writing this out, I'm wondering if I should have it looked at further. :think

[Dovenoir]

How early should this be a concern? DS crawls, then kneels/w sits to study something and occasionally pulls up.

[MiriamRose]

I know this is an old thread but I'm just starting to notice some things with DS1 that make me think he might have some weak core issues. He doesn't w sit often, but he also doesn't sit very often. :giggle He also squats and sits with his legs in front- I can't say I've ever seen him sit crisscross applesauce. My main concern is that when he "runs" he still really toddles- not really picking his knees up, like walking very fast and sort of hopping. I hadn't really thought about it before because he's only 2.5, but was watching some other kids at the park and thought hmmm. He also hyper-extends his knees, he is a bit knock-kneed (which I think looks more dramatic because of the hyperextension), and his feet turn in when walking/running. He tries to jump but only lifts one leg off the ground. He didn't crawl on hands and knees until 10/11 months (but was army crawling from 6 months), and didn't walk until 18 months. Still in the range of normal so not technically delayed, but definitely on the later side and I think is starting to form a pattern.

Is there anything I can be doing with him at home? He's very very 2 and his answer to every suggestion is nooooo!!! and he is rather body-defensive. So it's hit or miss whether I can get him to do anything. :shrug I can talk to his doctor about who might be good to evaluate him around here, but we're pretty low on funds right now afa paying for PT and such.

[mipennsn]

Check to see if early on is avaliable for you. We did that with ds2 when we added a second therapy and it was too much to go to the private place.

---------- Post added at 02:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:16 PM ----------

Google early intervention and your state and you should find some information. Early intervention services are covered under the Federal IDEA act.

For ds2 we started under early intervention, when he turned 3 we transitioned seamlessly into the preschool program (even were able to keep the same therapists). Now in the fall we will transitioning to the school program as ds is 6 and going to K (and had to say goodbye to his therapists).

[MiriamRose]

Can you still use the preschool and school programs as homeschoolers? I am not planning to put Z in preschool at this point, and he'd also have another year before it would make sense to start him anyway since he has a late November birthday.

[mipennsn]

I would assume so. Ds only went to preschool this year and he was at a different preschool than the one at the ESA (educational service agency). I could have chosen to have his therapy at school. He will be going to a private school in the fall, but his therapy services will be provided by the public school district at his private school).

The biggest difference is before 3 they can opt to do the therapy in your home, so we chose to do speech at home and PT at the ESA. (We were already to used to leaving for PT anyway).

[MiriamRose]

I'll check into it, thanks!

[NewCovenantMama]

Interesting! I w-sat as a small child. I think I grew out of it at about age 6 or 7, but all through junior school I found sitting cross-legged painful. I went to a private school where I was forced to sit cross legged for assembly, and with hindsight although I hated it I wonder if it actually did me good. As an adult, before I put on weight :giggle I found sitting cross legged really comfortable, though not so much now.

I was poorly co-ordinated for sports, handwriting, crafts etc, and I have mixed laterality (right hand, left eye). A few years ago God supernaturally healed my midline co-ordination and my ability to read music (no problems reading words or spelling, in fact I was ahead in those when I was little). I still have mixed laterality, but it doesn't seem to cause me any problems.

All 3 of my kids w-sat. My eldest, who has autism, has poor trunk stability, and Ds3 has slightly loose tendons and wears insoles in his shoes.

[ruhama]

i have hypermobile joints :) which is an abnormality in itself, and causes me some trouble. so, i can W sit, just b/c i can. it's def. something that should be checked out. i'm curious if yellowheart's kids *can* sit comfortably in other ways, and just prefer to sit W. that's also a big indicator.

Same here. I can still easily sit this way and often do. Bad habit, I know... :shifty

---------- Post added at 10:05 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

Interesting! I w-sat as a small child. I think I grew out of it at about age 6 or 7, but all through junior school I found sitting cross-legged painful. I went to a private school where I was forced to sit cross legged for assembly, and with hindsight although I hated it I wonder if it actually did me good. As an adult, before I put on weight :giggle I found sitting cross legged really comfortable, though not so much now.

I was poorly co-ordinated for sports, handwriting, crafts etc, and I have mixed laterality (right hand, left eye). A few years ago God supernaturally healed my midline co-ordination and my ability to read music (no problems reading words or spelling, in fact I was ahead in those when I was little). I still have mixed laterality, but it doesn't seem to cause me any problems.

All 3 of my kids w-sat. My eldest, who has autism, has poor trunk stability, and Ds3 has slightly loose tendons and wears insoles in his shoes.

I have longer legs and find cross-legged sitting quite painful on my ankles and knees. Could have been the w sitting, though...

Another clue to low tone would be sitting with legs out and leaning back with hands behind them, supporting the torso.

I recently read that the ideal spinal position for sitting is most easily achieved in the saddle or horseback-riding position. The w sit is like simply the saddle position squashed a bit.

[gentlemommy]

How can you help toddlers strengthen their core? My toddler 'W' sits and I think it's because her core is weak. How can I help her?

[yellowheart]

This is such an old thread I don't know if I responded to DancingWithElves...

yes, my children can W sit and can sit comfortably in other positions. My husband can still W sit (he's 48) and he doesn't have any joint problems.

[Tandem mama]

Not onyl can it cause issues, it is also typically indicative of existing issues.

People who prefer to sit this way generally have low muscle tone (too flexible and floppy) and poor core strength.

Children who choose this as their preferred seated position need to be pushed to not only sit differently, but also to strengthen their core and overall muscle tone.

:think dh is "double jointed" and sits this way. but I could see low muscle tone with him i think

:up this

however, with a disclaimer :)

at this young age change is generally quick and painless for all involved, but not necessarily.

as mentioned before, it's not accidental.
the example i use is this:
imagine me say it in the russian jewish grandma voice ;) --Joey, you hafta stand up straight, honey. Common now, shoulders back, lift you chin. That's betta.
Except the minute Joey is out of granny's sight he is back to slouching, head forward, round shoulders position. Why? Is he being mindless? Is he defiant? Is he trying to irritate his grandmother? Well, all of the above may be true, for a day. After that multiple systems of the body become involved. It's quite complex really. Many muscles, bones, digestion, nervous, and even the endocrine systems are all involved :yes It's no longer as simple as "Stand up straight. And slap on some deodorant while you are at it."

For a young child, a few visits with chiro/craniosacral therapist may be all you need. A few lifestyle changes. Possibly some PT or exercises at home.

I have had severe postural deficits, and to correct them I've had tons of PT (least effective), chiro (effective) and bodywork (most effective). PT mostly just told me to stand up straight and I'll be fine :sh5 :doh

Sitting itself will produce no *immediate* harm to joints or muscles, so no worries :hug For most adults, who may not even be capable of sitting this way, the strong internal rotation of the hip, and (esp. if shoes are worn) pressure on the knee could be very uncomfortable and damaging. A young child is in no danger, even in the trampoline :) (it makes sense that she would do that, b/c one is even more unstable on a trampoline, and this way she can keep her balance better).

I'd start working on plank walking a lot :yes ball and bean bag passing from hand to hand. Swinging self on a swing by pushing with legs, and bouncing on a see-saw are great trunk strength builders :tu

Plank walking-is that on a balance beam?

Is hypermobility doible jointedness?

[mwwr]

Interesting to hear you mention w-sitting as indicative of low tone. DS1's physical therapist was always trying to get him to try different positions, but he was high tone--spastic type CP. He rarely sits on the floor anymore, so I am not sure what he can do now.

[ruhama]

Interesting to hear you mention w-sitting as indicative of low tone. DS1's physical therapist was always trying to get him to try different positions, but he was high tone--spastic type CP. He rarely sits on the floor anymore, so I am not sure what he can do now.

I think it's a general "warning sign" of low tone. But it's also a comfortable, stable way to sit and play. :shrug3 It isn't definitively indicative of anything...

[Katigre]

How can you help toddlers strengthen their core? My toddler 'W' sits and I think it's because her core is weak. How can I help her?
The main ones we did at home with DS were 'supermans' where they lay on their stomach and lift up their upper torso/arms and 'rolly polys' where the child lays on their back and then curls up with their chin on their knees. Both of those you had to hold for 20-30 seconds at a time (work up to that goal) and do 10 repetitions a day. The key to building better core tone is the daily repetition - you have to do it regularly or it won't work!

FWIW, within two weeks of starting PT and the core exercises his W sitting disappeared without us having to prompt him. He still had the tendon tightness that PT stretched, but he no longer relied on W sitting for stability/comfort once his core got stronger.

Here are some other links with ideas:
http://www.ot-mom-learning-activities.com/core-exercises-for-kids.html
http://www.ky3.com/news/ky3-7-exercises-that-boost-child-development-20110224,0,2345624.photogallery - this one shows the two I described above except they call the rolly-poly 'popcorn' instead.

[gentlemommy]

Thank you!!!! :heart

[MariekeSings]

:popcorn

[AngelaVA]

My kids both have low tone and tend to w sit, we've done OT and all of that but the best thing has been swimming. I got them those puddle jumpers PDF's meant for swimming and we go all the time.

I know all the experts tell you that you must monitor and correct this and not let your child sit this way but IMO this is not very productive, at least not with a high needs child, it just turns a physical development issue into a behavioral issue and makes them all the more determined to sit that way. Once I quit commented in it, my now 6 year old rarely sits that way anymore.

[strawberrycake]

Just reading this old thread. One of my 2 year olds W sits and we just started attending a PT group session for some issues with his walking. I found this thread every informative. Thank you, everyone :)

[~yogamom~]

My 2-1/2 yr old sits this way habitually. I remind her to "criss cross applesauce" as a way of changing stance, but she always chooses this seat first.

I am worried about what it means and what it will cause.

By the way, it's a year later and my dd (now 3) doesn't W sit anymore. Ever. She just stopped at stop point. FWIW!

[melliethepooh]

I only read the op, but has anybody mentioned that Katy Bowman blogged on this a few weeks back? I can't link but from www.alignedandwell.com I imagine you could search for it pretty easily.

[Elibellamiah]

So I'm curious now if sitting the other way, criss cross apple sauce I guess it's called, can cause any problems. I only wonder because I am extremely inflexible, I can't even straighten my legs all the way and the only comfortable way I can sit is with my legs crossed in. That is the only way they are flexible at all, I can do the yoga pose with my legs crossed over each other without even using my hands to get them like that and I can put my feet behind my neck if I want, but I can't put my legs out in a W position at all, or get even close to sitting with my legs straight out in front of me (I can put my legs in front of me but my knees have to be very bent). I also have very poor posture and have my shoulders rounded in and have very weak arms. My ankles turned in and I had to wear orthodics in my shoes as a child. I did a lot of PT when I was in middle school (when they noticed the problem) to try to stretch my legs but it never seemed to help any, plus was very painful so I didn't want to do my stretches.
I hate how I stand, my right leg is worse. I had a really hard time finding a picture, but here are 2 that people posted of me on facebook (really old pictures by the way) but you can kind of see how my right leg is when I stand, I wish I could find one where I'm wearing shorts.
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/226872_1070309993516_1752_n.jpg
https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/4422_85241404570_620236_n.jpg