Drastically adjusting their time clock . Kids resisting change - Update p23

[Heather Micaela]

I think that I just birthed night owls and then nurtured them to love it. I am a night owl and have adjusted but my kids cannot it seems.

I tried ALL SUMMER to get my kids up and go to bed when normal people do since 2 would be starting school. We found out it is no good to put them to bed earliear if they are not sleepy, they need to get up early. We did it gradually and made some progress, but not much. We tried big changes and forcing them to stay awake. They resisted and napped as if their life depended on it.


Now school has started and they are getting up and surviving school but still compensating with nap and napping with tenacity. There is probably a 3-4 hour deficit in sleep without a nap, though a nap is age appropriate, so more like two hours off.

How do I get them to be tired at bedtime and not nap so much?

Oh and all I care about are the 3yo and 5yo. The olders will adjust and have no real commitments if they sleep in some.

[expatmom]

Can you give a play by play of the day? What time do they get up? When are they napping? When do they sleep?

[Heather Micaela]

Little Kids only:

I wake up at 7:30 am. I dress the 3yo and put her in the car half asleep at 7:45. She wakes up on the drive and eats at school. As I leave, dad is getting 5yo breakfast and making sure she is ready to go. I come home and walk her the 5 minutes to school wich starts before 8:30.

I pick up 3yo at 11:30. She plays and usually falls asleep by 12:15. As of today I was able to get her up at 3:30. So about a 3 hour nap. I pick up 5yo at 12:45 she may have gotten over needed a nap.:think So far it is 6:30 and she seems fine. I will l let you know if she crashes early.

We eat around 6:30 or 7.

The goal is that they are all ready for bed by just before 9. Then there is one story and bed. But my kids need light and noise to sleep. We spent all summer trying to keep TV off close to bedtime and usng a nightlight and music instead. It is not working. So now it is book, boring video (Baby Einstein), then hopefully SLEEP.

9:15-9:20 is too late still, but that was my temporary goal. But they keep getting out of bed until 11. It is too dark and quiet for the little kids. But the big kids need it dark and quiet. And they are keeping each other awake even when they are tired.

[Heather Micaela]

Bubmp - accepting any wild ideas to help.

[RooMama]

:icecube

[Heather Micaela]

First, start getting yourself up earlier. :hug2

I would start adjusting suppertime to be earlier, too. They are used to a certain amount of time after supper before bed, so maybe an earlier supper would help them adjust to an earlier bed time.
I actually realized it is 7, but I do not need more time in the mornng. :shrug3 They get up fine, they are just tired

I really do not want dinner TOO much earlier because dh is the cook. When he gets a job, if it is 9-5, we may not eat till 6:30 or later anyway. (And they are used to eating at 8pm TBPH)

[Mama Calidad]

I don't think that any of my ideas would actually work, but I hope that you find something that does!

[Heather Micaela]

I don't think that any of my ideas would actually work, but I hope that you find something that does!
I would love to hear them anyway. I am not trying to shoot ideas down, I like to acknowledge that people responded and I process verbally, so I will talk out what will or wont work. I will try to be quiet. ;)

[expatmom]

We do jet lag a number of times in the year. This is what works for us.

I have to get up earlier & set the tone. I hate that because I'm not a morning person. But my kids adjust better if I adjust myself first. So I make an effort to get up, be dressed, make a real breakfast.

When my kids are getting up at staggered times, I try and have everyone eat together. This means my younger dds get a little bit of playtime after breakfast before starting their day, but they are already up dressed & ready.

If dinner has to be later, I have a big plate of cut up veggies on the table by about 4pm that they can graze eat. It stems the need for snacks & gets their tummies fuller earlier.

I try to plan a low key but physical activity that my kids like in the afternoon to keep everyone awake. We go swimming, go for a walk, go for a bike ride, go for a little treat, etc. I try to do this every day for at least a week while we all reset our clocks. I am also far less grumpy with them if we are out and moving.

Everyone has to be on bed by 8. If they can't sleep, then they listen with earphones to stories or music.

TV complicates and negatively impacts their ability to adjust, so I go on a firm no TV unless you are fully awake protocol while we get over jet lag. The only time I let them watch when tired is in the witching hour before dinner because I know they won't fall asleep & I can actually get dinner made! (and they are happily munching their veggies) ;)

If I were you, I wouldn't let the little one nap so long. For a week I would plan an activity at about 2pm even if it is walking around the block or going to somewhere close by so she gets in the habit of getting up and getting going. I'd start a dance party with the other kids right at 2 so the house is noisy and non-conducive to deep sleep.

[Heather Micaela]

We do jet lag a number of times in the year. This is what works for us.

I have to get up earlier & set the tone. I hate that because I'm not a morning person. But my kids adjust better if I adjust myself first. So I make an effort to get up, be dressed, make a real breakfast.

When my kids are getting up at staggered times, I try and have everyone eat together. This means my younger dds get a little bit of playtime after breakfast before starting their day, but they are already up dressed & ready.

If dinner has to be later, I have a big plate of cut up veggies on the table by about 4pm that they can graze eat. It stems the need for snacks & gets their tummies fuller earlier.

I try to plan a low key but physical activity that my kids like in the afternoon to keep everyone awake. We go swimming, go for a walk, go for a bike ride, go for a little treat, etc. I try to do this every day for at least a week while we all reset our clocks. I am also far less grumpy with them if we are out and moving.

Everyone has to be on bed by 8. If they can't sleep, then they listen with earphones to stories or music.

TV complicates and negatively impacts their ability to adjust, so I go on a firm no TV unless you are fully awake protocol while we get over jet lag. The only time I let them watch when tired is in the witching hour before dinner because I know they won't fall asleep & I can actually get dinner made! (and they are happily munching their veggies) ;)

If I were you, I wouldn't let the little one nap so long. For a week I would plan an activity at about 2pm even if it is walking around the block or going to somewhere close by so she gets in the habit of getting up and getting going. I'd start a dance party with the other kids right at 2 so the house is noisy and non-conducive to deep sleep.
Thanks :heart

Some issues
I am dressed and ready by the time I dress the 3yo. The OTHERS can all eat together but she eats at school - it is part of the program. So I cannot have them eating and tell her NOT to. So they have to eat at another time and it has to be pretty much while I am driving 3yo to school because 5yo has to go to school the minute I get back.

We actually WERE dancing today right at 2 (it is PE) the music is blasting so they can hear it outside because it is played through the computer. She slept through it. :doh

When they can't sleep they get up. Over and over. We can keep returning them, but we can't make them stay. And the activity of 4 kids playing of each other keeps everyone awake.

[everydaygrace]

That would be really frustrating. I don't know if I'll have anything helpful. I just have my little one, but I can help you brainstorm.

Ok, I thought expat's idea about the headphones was really good. It seems like
if they are each listening to a story or something it might keep the distractions down. It seems like it would take a but of effort to get enough mp3 players and headphones to let them all listen, but it seems like if you could manage it, it would be worth a shot.

I would think if you can get them out of the house and busy in the afternoon like expat suggested, you would be able to get the little ones tired enough to go to sleep earlier. If so, that might cut down on the chaos/noise/need for light so that the Olders can go to sleep. So I'm thinking of 2 separate bedtimes maybe?

Also, what about giving the youngers a simpler meal earlier, separate from everyone else, so that they can go to bed earlier. I know it might not be ideal, but it could help.

What a cycle! They take a nap, so they go to bed late and get up tired so they take a nap...

[Heather Micaela]

What a cycle! They take a nap, so they go to bed late and get up tired so they take a nap...
Exactly.
I needed their sleep debt taken care of to end that cycle I think. So that is what we are taking care of this weekend without reverting to the old schedule. I think it is getting better though. They got to sleep in till 9 today because it is Shabbat day and they got up before that. And the 5yo crashed by 9:30 with no prompting.

Tomorrow they will not be allowed to sleep in past 8:30 and bedtime will be enforced even if we know sleep time will not be.

The biggest issue is that they keep each other awake - all 4 of them. I would not trust my littles with an ipod and I do not have enough. I really wish there were more rooms to put them in. 4 in one room stinks.

[dylansmom]

I babysat for a family that had eleven children "spread out" in 3 bedrooms (3 girls in one room, 4 boys in one room, and 4 youngest in mom/dad's room). They did not own a TV and did not enforce a strict sleep time but they did enforce a strict bedtime (7:30 - no different times for olders/youngers).

Once they were in bed though, they had a tape/CD player in each room and they were allowed to listen to "Adventures in Odyssey" until they fell asleep. Some fell asleep right away and some were still awake at 11:00 but would eventually fall asleep. Would something like that work?

Another thought, since your olders don't have to get up so early in the morning, could you stagger bedtime? Youngers go to bed 30 minutes earlier?

[Rabbit]

I'd give them melatonin twenty minutes before bed time.

[klpmommy]

when you see the beginning of the afternoon sleepies or at the time it happens typically, be proactive: give a sugar boost (you can use fruit) and get them moving. Sugar and movement won't work once they are asleep, but if you catch them before it happens you can prevent it. It is hard work, I've done it when transitioning toddlers out of naps.

Also, I agree about the melatonin before bed. Watch the timing, if you do it too long then they work through it and it doesn't help them fall asleep.

[Waterlogged]

Could you put the littles to bed before the bigs?

[Heather Micaela]

Could you put the littles to bed before the bigs?
We are trying. Dad is supposed to be getting the little kids in bed while I read to the olders for 30 min. But in reality the big kids DO need to get up when the little kids do, there are just few consequences when they do not.

[Sparrow]

when you see the beginning of the afternoon sleepies or at the time it happens typically, be proactive: give a sugar boost (you can use fruit) and get them moving. Sugar and movement won't work once they are asleep, but if you catch them before it happens you can prevent it. It is hard work, I've done it when transitioning toddlers out of naps.



this is what I'm doing, to transition Max. He's 3 next month.

When Max was born we got in the habit of having Bear up til 10 pm. Then he'd get up later, but he'd nap at 3 in the afternoon, wake just in time for dinner at it was :banghead.

We started by keeping the bedtime routine the same, but inching it back every few days by 10 minutes. By the end of a month or so, he was not napping (doing what Kimberly suggested) AND falling asleep by 8. We were able to further adjust him to 7:30 when the clocks flipped back :phew

I think? it was you that had the super late routine before, right? Dinner at 9 or 10 pm? So you've adjusted before, and you'll make it through again :hug

[Heather Micaela]

this is what I'm doing, to transition Max. He's 3 next month.

When Max was born we got in the habit of having Bear up til 10 pm. Then he'd get up later, but he'd nap at 3 in the afternoon, wake just in time for dinner at it was :banghead.

We started by keeping the bedtime routine the same, but inching it back every few days by 10 minutes. By the end of a month or so, he was not napping (doing what Kimberly suggested) AND falling asleep by 8. We were able to further adjust him to 7:30 when the clocks flipped back :phew

I think? it was you that had the super late routine before, right? Dinner at 9 or 10 pm? So you've adjusted before, and you'll make it through again :hug
I hope so.

Thing is we have never had to get up at 7:00 on a regular basis the entire time myoldest has been alive. (Well maybe the first year when he had a daycare but not since then). Getting up at NINE is early for them. Somewhere we got way out of whack and it was PAST noon and we finally adjustesd to 10ish. SO this is just insane early to their way of thinking. And TBPH my ideal is waking at 8-8:30 and not having to function till 9 -it is actually one of my big pros for homeschooling. I spent too many years functioning against my actual body rythm and I hated it. So it doesn't help that everything within me is resisting this as well.


And a totaly NON snarky question. How does putting them to BED earlier help them get to SLEEP earlier - even by 10 minutes? My kids do not sleep well even when tired. They do not sleep at ALL when not. And I am the same way. Even as an adult when I would know it is best, I would laugh when people suggested we to go to bed early because we were getting up really early the nest morning. I wasn't going to be able to will myself to sleep just because it would be a good idea. I figured it was better to enjoy that time since I would be awake either way rather than being bored trying to keep my eyes shut. And I HAVE tried it both ways. In fact the earlier I have to get up, the harder time I have getting to sleep.

[Sparrow]

And a totaly NON snarky question. How does putting them to BED earlier help them get to SLEEP earlier - even by 10 minutes? My kids do not sleep well even when tired. They do not sleep at ALL when not. And I am the same way. Even as an adult when I would know it is best, I would laugh when people suggested we to go to bed early because we were getting up really early the nest morning. I wasn't going to be able to will myself to sleep just because it would be a good idea. I figured it was better to enjoy that time since I would be awake either way rather than being bored trying to keep my eyes shut. And I HAVE tried it both ways. In fact the earlier I have to get up, the harder time I have getting to sleep.

I can understand, because I'm the same way. DH is always telling me to go to bed earlier, to what? stare at the wall?

IDK why it worked with Bear. Elizabeth Pantley suggested it, I tried it, it worked :giggle

It might be getting into the routine of winding down earlier, getting the body ready for sleep earlier. When adjusting out of naps especially we would literally dance around the dinner table trying to keep him awake for just 15 more minutes.

I also stayed with him til he fell asleep. Not sure if that works for you.

[klpmommy]

for us, we have to work it the other direction. We have to start with the wake up time and then figure out the bedtime from that. So the only way we could get an earlier bedtime is to enforce an earlier wake up. It will be *hard*.

[Heather Micaela]

for us, we have to work it the other direction. We have to start with the wake up time and then figure out the bedtime from that. So the only way we could get an earlier bedtime is to enforce an earlier wake up. It will be *hard*.
yeah that is the direction we are going - the naps are what is throwing it off, so I will try your advice tomorrow :yes

[Heather Micaela]

ARGGGHHH
4 kids in a room is just NOT working! As hard as it is, we have been shooting for 8:30 bedtime and they just keep playing, or coming out of the room, or arguing about how dark/light loud/quiet it needs to be.

Dh would rather they just fall asleep to the TV because IT WORKS and at least they stay in their room.

I'd even relent, but he wants them to sleep in OUR ROOM so they stop bugging the big kids. I would even STILL give in except they just will not wind down enough to go to bed on time. They are finally asleep by 10ish each night. But not tonight.

I have not done the melatonin because they are not TIRED 20 minutes before bedtime. And I do not know why. It is like they are determined to stay on the same clock at all costs. We have forced them to stay awake. We have got them out of bed and to school on time weekly. It is Just. Not. Working.

I think I may have to suffer until the time change and then we are at leat getting them to bed instanlty by nine pm. I could live with that I guess.

Any other advice before I resolve myself to giving up till November?

[Waterlogged]

Would AL and T wake up if the biggers came to bed after they were asleep?

[Heather Micaela]

Would AL and T wake up if the biggers came to bed after they were asleep?
No, but they wont go to bed if the biggers are up and it is AL and T that are keeping the bigger ones up. The bigger ones WANT to go to bed and it is of little consequence if they do. The littles do not want to go to bed and THEY need to.

ETA: I want to try the melatonin but they do not start to get tired. I read kids on the spectrum may not produce their own, so should I just start a regimen regardless of sleep signs?

[Waterlogged]

Could you split AL and T up between the kid room and your room? Then move one into the other room? What do you when they get up?

Do you think one of them is the "instigator" more than any of the others?

[Heather Micaela]

Could you split AL and T up between the kid room and your room? Then move one into the other room? What do you when they get up?

Do you think one of them is the "instigator" more than any of the others?
AL and T both want lights on and a movie. The bigs both want it totaly dark and quiet music. It is usually this conflict that causes more issues than playing. But the little girls play and giggle untill the TV comes on. Then they quiet down and go to sleep :shrug3

So the littles in my room works, but I loose a room and we are using the TV as a sleep aid :doh

And did you see my edit about melatonin?

[Waterlogged]

it might be an okay short-term solution. can you move them after they fall asleep? do you guys have another tv, or is the only tv in your room?

[Heather Micaela]

it might be an okay short-term solution. can you move them after they fall asleep? do you guys have another tv, or is the only tv in your room?
Actually in order for them to have a "TV" in our room, we had to set up the portable DVD player. There is a TV w/ DVD in the kids' room so they can watch a movie when we watch a grown-up omne at times. BUt the big kids do not sleep with it on.

I moved them to our room so they could sleep with more light. I could have done it the other way, but DS is fine in his room on his bed (as is my olest dd) and they are too heavy to move anyway.

[Waterlogged]

i bet once you get them going to bed earlier and getting more sleep, you'll be able to back off from the dvd player. i'd take falling asleep at 9 w/the dvd player before staying up til 11 without any day.

[Heather Micaela]

i bet once you get them going to bed earlier and getting more sleep, you'll be able to back off from the dvd player. i'd take falling asleep at 9 w/the dvd player before staying up til 11 without any day.
so just use it for and start it earlier each night? If it were earlier at night I would even be ok with a short video.

[Waterlogged]

yeah. if you finish dinner at 7:30, then start nighttime stuff immediately with the younger 2 - so that you're aiming to have them asleep by 8:30.

[Stonebeck Farm]

Heather,

A local friend started giving her son meletoinin (he is on the spectrum) and he had fantastic results. Until he was on it, he could never fall asleep--but all her other kids could. She did give it to him when he was not sleepy and it worked over time. (He had no sleep signs when she started giving it to him. She did find that she needs to get him in best by 7 to have the best success for him to sleep and for the meletonin to work.)

As far as light- the best time to get light in the eyes is 8-10 am--that is when your body produces the most meletonin (was in a book in our LLL library). Dr recommended that early morning outside play was the best. Walking T to school is great for her. Someone borrowed the book and never returned it and the name on the card says "I don't have it" otherwise I would look and see what else was recommended. My 4th has a harder time falling asleep than her siblings.

So if your two were my kids, I might start with what works and work on changes slowly. I might get a video that is nature based- something from the library with classical music as a background. (Working towards them falling to sleep with classical music.) I would work on 8;30 being a bed time for starts. I would get them ready for bed at 8. (Call it quiet time even if it is anything BUT quiet ;)). I will serve meletonin at 8pm to the 2 littles and then have everyone go to bed. I would sacrifice my room for the younger ones. (My dh can move a sleeping child once they are asleep- I can't.) The older ones can go to their room and read for a while- it could be their independent reading time for the day- until my son with dyslexia started reading, he would look at pictures. Now the little ones are not complaining the big ones are still up. Then I would set up the video for the little ones. I would give them sipper water bottles- no need to get out of bed- but also the kind where you don't get a lot at a time so they don't need extra bathroom breaks. They could go to the bathroom right at 8. I would turn out the lights and put on the video. I would make sure they get lots of morning fresh air and sunshine. You have the advantage where you live. Even if their bodies are not making the meletonin they need, at least they might make a little and I would want the advantage of a little. It might propose a challenge for T since she gets driven to school. But I might take her a little early and throw a ball to her so she runs around outside.

Do you rent or own? -- I think I remember that you rent which makes my next idea not so feasible.

if you own-there might be a solution for the sleeping rooms. (We technically have a two bedroom house and 4 kids--for sepctic leach line reasons- but we do have three rooms. The bedrooms are small, but DH is talking of splitting them with creative wall arranging- it can be done with minimal cost as we are super limited on funds. )


On the other hand--temp wall dividers may help settle the issue. Creative use of non-permanent dividers- all made from reclaimed free stuff! I have a friend who has made the most amazing furniture/chicken enclosures--all from free work she gets from pallets and shipping crates- she justs asks stores for them.

[Heather Micaela]

Great ideas!

I can't divide the room because I do rent and the situation is a bunk bed so even temporary dividers would not work. But the rest is a great plan. :rockon Though I also am not going to get up earlier to be active with T :shifty. She is at school by 8 and also plays outside, so plenty of melatonin time amyway. :yes