Is spanking an "American" thing?

[walkwallfall]

I was wondering if any of you know what they do in other countries. I consider America to be a very unfriendly country in regards to children whereas other places it is normal for a mom to strap her baby on her back and work and BF on demand, etc. and was thinking that spanking must be popular here because of the lack of understand and compassion for children, etc.

[TenderLovingWillow]

I know Canada is not near as spanking friendly.. (So says my punitive parents who have a church up there.. )

[Patrysha]

I think that's because the restrictions placed on spanking through legislation have driven it underground where it was prevalent and made parents think through other solutions where it wasn't already entrenched.

[Earthmummy07]

Spanking/smacking is not anywhere near as prevelant in the UK in my experience. Definately not in the thought out, pre-determined way that it is set up as an actual discipline method in the US. It's more a kind of a 'parent occasionally gets frustrated and swats' thing than a 'we shall intentionally stop and spank our children for XYZ offenses'.

It's definately not the cultural norm with the 'opt in/out' philosphy it attracts in the US :no

[Lila]

Spanking/smacking is not anywhere near as prevelant in the UK in my experience. Definately not in the thought out, pre-determined way that it is set up as an actual discipline method in the US. It's more a kind of a 'parent occasionally gets frustrated and swats' thing than a 'we shall intentionally stop and spank our children for XYZ offenses'.

It's definately not the cultural norm with the 'opt in/out' philosphy it attracts in the US :no

I think also that smacking with any kind of implement is illegal, though I might be wrong.

I also think the kind of ritualistic spanking that you get with the Pearls and their ilk is pretty much limited to evangelical circles.

[arwen_tiw]

I actually think the UK is much much more similar to the US than Earthmummy's experiences. It seems to have a real stronghold in many church cultures, just like in America, and most people who hit outside of that type of taught punitive method do so occasionally, angrily, and either regret it sorely or say "well I survived it". :(

There *is* beginning to be more of a sense of dicomfort with witnessing outbursts of parental anger in public spaces. Now, when I see an adult hit or scream at a child, I usually see other people looking worried/upset, wheras when my first was born I was more likely to see other people ignoring it or offering advice on how to get submission from their child. I still have people tell me how nice it is to see my well-behaved children and how it's obvious I must smack them. :hunh :rolleyes

Perhaps that's part of the reason our spanking culture is more underground and less polarised - we tend to use nicer euphemisms for hitting. In the UK, almost everyone will say they would NEVER "spank", even those who are heavily into punitive paradigms and say they often use physical punishment (or "a quick smack" or "a corrective tap").

(Hitting with an implement is illegal but I know it goes on in spite of that, in circles outside the church pro-punishment ones too. I've been party to discussion about it - and my family use wooden spoons in defiance of the outright ban on any hitting of children in Scotland. :sigh)

[thomer]

I don't know if *spanking* specifically is prevelent, but when we visited India, there was quite a bit of smacking of children. I was sort of shocked - the parents seemed so mean. I got to preach a sermon and I made a point of saying that I show God's love to DS by not hitting him :shifty

[Serafine]

Babywearing and cosleeping might be the norm in many 3rd world countries... but in many of those countries, severe abuse toward women and children is also the norm.

Sure, they might not "spank like Dobson"...but they certainly smack, beat, kick, and do plenty of other ritually abusive things to children.

In general...since a LONG, LONG, LONG time ago, children are not valued as small humans worthy of dignity and respect. They are a means to an end and/or viewed as property.

I firmly believe that is why Jesus made such a point of elevating their status (and that of women's status) in His practice and teachings.

[Lila]

I actually think the UK is much much more similar to the US than Earthmummy's experiences. It seems to have a real stronghold in many church cultures, just like in America, and most people who hit outside of that type of taught punitive method do so occasionally, angrily, and either regret it sorely or say "well I survived it". :(

There *is* beginning to be more of a sense of dicomfort with witnessing outbursts of parental anger in public spaces. Now, when I see an adult hit or scream at a child, I usually see other people looking worried/upset, wheras when my first was born I was more likely to see other people ignoring it or offering advice on how to get submission from their child. I still have people tell me how nice it is to see my well-behaved children and how it's obvious I must smack them. :hunh :rolleyes

Perhaps that's part of the reason our spanking culture is more underground and less polarised - we tend to use nicer euphemisms for hitting. In the UK, almost everyone will say they would NEVER "spank", even those who are heavily into punitive paradigms and say they often use physical punishment (or "a quick smack" or "a corrective tap").

(Hitting with an implement is illegal but I know it goes on in spite of that, in circles outside the church pro-punishment ones too. I've been party to discussion about it - and my family use wooden spoons in defiance of the outright ban on any hitting of children in Scotland. :sigh)

I actually live very close to where you are, Sarah. Derby is far more Christian than where I was in Yorkshire, there seem to be far more evangelicals. In my non-Christian mainstream upbringing, people would often smack with their bare hand, but this was usually seen as a bad thing to do. The Christians I've spoken to seem to be more accepting of spanking.

[ThreeKids]

Perhaps that's part of the reason our spanking culture is more underground and less polarised - we tend to use nicer euphemisms for hitting. In the UK, almost everyone will say they would NEVER "spank", even those who are heavily into punitive paradigms and say they often use physical punishment (or "a quick smack" or "a corrective tap").


I can't say that sounds to me like you're using nicer words for spanking. My understanding of the word spanking is any range of hitting the rear, from the lightest tap that a kid will barely notice to a beating that doesn't happen to hit anywhere else. My understanding of the word smack until I was on GCM and heard from Brits was an open hand hit to the face and nothing else.

Also, there are those who refuse to call spanking "hitting", that using that motion toward the rear causes the word "hitting" to no longer apply. And they really, really refuse to call it violence.

-------------------

My understanding of spanking in the US is that culturally we were okay w/ corporal punishment as something brought over from England. Toward children, a Jane Eyre-type experience. Toward adults, things got more harsh. This way of doing things was extreme on some British ships and we interacted with plenty of those.

Then, with slavery, those things stayed alive and well longer than they should have.

The state stopped using corporal punishment legally toward adults pretty early, but it continued for slaves and within families. Once slavery was over and women had political power, only children were left without recourse, therefore were the only ones still legally subjected to it.

Person to person violence is still considered wrong in the US, so people attached some kind of cognitive dissonance to spanking, where it is magically not violence because, well, it just isn't, that's how cognitive dissonance works. Ritualizing it as buttocks only is part of selling it as "not violence" and proof texting with Biblical passages was thrown in for good measure.

We've since let go of the proof texting that made slavery sound Biblically justified, but we never had any proof texting that made slavery sound required and required is what some attached to "spanking" so our culture is stuck with spanking longer than we were stuck with other unBiblical things that people used the Bible to justify.

[EnglishRose]

in my experience, 'spanking' (or 'smacking as we say) is not as prevailant in the uk, none of my non-christian friends smack, some of my christian friends do smack. However, i think this might be a bit of a class thing, i think 'middle class' mummies are less likely to smack / shout, in public at least! Just my observation!

Evangelical churches are being more and more influenced by American teachers i worry that 'spanking teaching' might come in a more formulated way but as it stands i don't know many churches who 'preach' about spanking but there might be an underlying assumption that Christian parents do.

The big thing in the UK, is Gina Ford's 'Contented Little Baby', many people follow her routines and buy into the idea that babies and children should not inconvenience parents. Oh and bed sharing is fairly rare, it just not really seen as 'the thing to do'.:-/

[anitajoye]

Babywearing and cosleeping might be the norm in many 3rd world countries... but in many of those countries, severe abuse toward women and children is also the norm.

Sure, they might not "spank like Dobson"...but they certainly smack, beat, kick, and do plenty of other ritually abusive things to children.

In general...since a LONG, LONG, LONG time ago, children are not valued as small humans worthy of dignity and respect. They are a means to an end and/or viewed as property.

I firmly believe that is why Jesus made such a point of elevating their status (and that of women's status) in His practice and teachings.
I would say this is even true to come degree about France. Children should be seen and not heard (i have had comments made to me about letting my 18 mo old play in the tupperware cupboard and making noise, or making noise during adult conversation), they enter day care early (whether or not it's needed), they start school full time at 3 yrs (my point in saying that is that they are often considered a nuisance and are absent from the home), they might not be formally spanked, but they are smacked and yelled at. We've seen this in public. Women have less rights here as compared to women in the US (I have watched two friends go through messy divorces).

[ThreeKids]

I'm thinking spanking as having a special status as a good thing as long as it's done in the ritualized way and that is considered "good" even to people who would be appalled at the idea of any strike of any level of force to a child's face, may be an American concept.

Do other countries use other forms of punishment like time-outs and grounding?

[Heather Micaela]

Honestly, I do not think spanking is even as common here in the US as we think. Most of us are coming from some sort of christian background and that came with the misinterpretation of scripture. BUt in mainstream secular US it is not done as a "go to" tool. It is either done as a last resort, or done when the parent is at a loss but then they feel guilty.

I'd say if you did honest polls you would find that most parents in the US have "Spanked", but if you were specific to those who thought it was good and rely on it as a discipline method, the numbers would be much smaller. I can tell you here in CA, you would be a fool to threaten spanking your kid out loud, because you would get stared down.

[Earthmummy07]

Time out (or 'the naughty step' - thankyou Supernanny) is the main form of discipline round here

Grounding is popular with moms of teens

[Serafine]

BUt in mainstream secular US it is not done as a "go to" tool. It is either done as a last resort, or done when the parent is at a loss but then they feel guilty.


Heather, this is totally dependent on where in the US you live. In parts of the midwest and South, it is totally an completely acceptable in secular circles to spank, hit, smack hands, etc. of small children.

It is used as an absolutely valid and oft-used tool...not as a last resort. :no

I have lived in multiple states in the south and midwest, and was always in middle to upper class communities (as well as very educated communities). In the secular communities I was a part of...every single family with kids used spanking and/or smacking hands as a tool. ALL of them, without exception. They had no problems talking about it, threatening it in front of others, and making it happen if they felt the need.

In the lower socioeconomic areas...even moreso.

I can see how being reared in CA, you would have a different outlook...but CA is a whole different ball of wax than a very large portion of the secular USA.

[Heather Micaela]

I can't say that sounds to me like you're using nicer words for spanking. My understanding of the word spanking is any range of hitting the rear, from the lightest tap that a kid will barely notice to a beating that doesn't happen to hit anywhere else. My understanding of the word smack until I was on GCM and heard from Brits was an open hand hit to the face and nothing else.

Also, there are those who refuse to call spanking "hitting", that using that motion toward the rear causes the word "hitting" to no longer apply. And they really, really refuse to call it violence.

-------------------

My understanding of spanking in the US is that culturally we were okay w/ corporal punishment as something brought over from England. Toward children, a Jane Eyre-type experience. Toward adults, things got more harsh. This way of doing things was extreme on some British ships and we interacted with plenty of those.

Then, with slavery, those things stayed alive and well longer than they should have.

The state stopped using corporal punishment legally toward adults pretty early, but it continued for slaves and within families. Once slavery was over and women had political power, only children were left without recourse, therefore were the only ones still legally subjected to it.

Person to person violence is still considered wrong in the US, so people attached some kind of cognitive dissonance to spanking, where it is magically not violence because, well, it just isn't, that's how cognitive dissonance works. Ritualizing it as buttocks only is part of selling it as "not violence" and proof texting with Biblical passages was thrown in for good measure.

We've since let go of the proof texting that made slavery sound Biblically justified, but we never had any proof texting that made slavery sound required and required is what some attached to "spanking" so our culture is stuck with spanking longer than we were stuck with other unBiblical things that people used the Bible to justify.
do you have resources on this history? It seems interesting but I have never heard this perspective before.

I am also wonderng how this ties in to the statistics that African Americans regardless of social class spank more than middle class and up white families. I also know many hispanic families readily use this "Tool".

Oh and AFA other countries, in Southeast Asian countries they do not view even harsher hitting as abuse and it causes confilicts when they come to the us. http://www.csulb.edu/projects/ccwrl/Rhee_PowerPoint.pdf

---------- Post added at 10:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

Heather, this is totally dependent on where in the US you live. In parts of the midwest and South, it is totally an completely acceptable in secular circles to spank, hit, smack hands, etc. of small children.

It is used as an absolutely valid and oft-used tool...not as a last resort. :no

I can see how being reared in CA, you would have a different outlook...but CA is a whole different ball of wax than a very large portion of the secular USA.
Yes but the south and midwest are still part of the bible belt and culture at large has been affected like that.

I am pretty sure I have read statistics and outside the bible belt, hitting is less common.


There is also and income/edcataion factor. Those who are middle class and/or have a college degree also tend to use spanking less. (And of course those who are self educated enough to not just go with the status quo)

[Serafine]

Heather...you said that if one were to do an honest poll of the US...that spanking would not be used as much as we think it is.

The midwest and the South are a HUGE part of that...so, your premise is incorrect. Of course there are other factors, like socioeconomics, education, etc. I was simply correcting your assumption (based largely on your experience in one quite liberal and progressive state) that in MOST of the US, spanking would be less common than we think. :shrug

Rather, I think spanking would be MORE common than YOUR personal experiences, living where you do.

I was addressing this quote:

BUt in mainstream secular US it is not done as a "go to" tool. It is either done as a last resort, or done when the parent is at a loss but then they feel guilty. and disagreeing with it.

[arwen_tiw]

That's exactly what I mean about the language difference. "Spanking" in the UK is used synonymously with "beating" - we use the word "smack" to mean what you folks in the US mean when you say "spank", and it is widely seen as socially acceptable up to a point.

Lila, yes, I think you're right when you say my experience is very much based on being raised in an area with a lot of a certain type of evangelical church.

And yes, again, to spanking not having special status here if you do it the "right" way - though I have heard the "do not spank in anger" thing from non-christian sources. Largely, time out IS more popular, but I do also live in a high-poverty area, so smacking is very very common around here and has no social stigma at all even right out on the street.

[ThreeKids]

That's my perspective on historical things. I could probably come up with something that would confirm (and hopefully not discount) the order of the events, but, even if I had a resource that attached "why's" to the order of things, it would still be limited at some depth of reference to just being someone's perspective.


Also, on spanking not being as prevalent in CA...even here in the Midwest, often the threat of spanking if there's not compliance is implied in every command, so you might not hear it even when someone does spank. That it's expected, even applauded here, means people won't be censoring their last, exasperated attempt, making the threat of spanking out loud. I'm sure it is way less practiced in CA, but there would be a much, much bigger disparity in what's said out loud than what is practiced.

[Katigre]

Spanking is very common in Latin America because 'respecting the authority of your parents and NEVER talking back to them' is a very high value that is enforced with swift and physical discipline. The stories that my ESL students tell of the beatings they received from their parents make me :jawdrop and make the 'spank in love not anger only after direct defiance' Dobson mantra look practically GBD.

[Macky]

The law (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0510-e.htm) as it stands in Canada, in case anyone is interested. It's not perfect, but it's progress. It's been my own experience in rural SK that spanking is definitely more prevalent in church circles. I know very, very few secular people who would take a hand to their children. Our former church taught spanking from the pulpit when I was a child and there was an official school paddle, which was used. They're a lot better at hiding it now since the law was refined, but they still endorse it for all ages (even under two, but they won't say that from the pulpit anymore). :sick

[Heather Micaela]

Heather...you said that if one were to do an honest poll of the US...that spanking would not be used as much as we think it is.

The midwest and the South are a HUGE part of that...so, your premise is incorrect. Of course there are other factors, like socioeconomics, education, etc. I was simply correcting your assumption (based largely on your experience in one quite liberal and progressive state) that in MOST of the US, spanking would be less common than we think. :shrug

Rather, I think spanking would be MORE common than YOUR personal experiences, living where you do.

I was addressing this quote:

and disagreeing with it.
You assume my only sphere of influence and experience is CA, but I have freinds and family from all over. My point is not that spanking doesn't occur, but that when you take out a faulty christian world view it occurs less than many of us here may think. I would say most HAVE spanked and agree with it to some degree but do not do so with thre regularity that we think. Most do not do it as often and for as many years and as deliberately as they do in christian circles.

I am saying that many of us have our experience colored by being surrouned by the church.:shrug3

The statistics show 65% for kids 3 and under across the us

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:02 AM ----------

Spanking is very common in Latin America because 'respecting the authority of your parents and NEVER talking back to them' is a very high value that is enforced with swift and physical discipline. The stories that my ESL students tell of the beatings they received from their parents make me :jawdrop and make the 'spank in love not anger only after direct defiance' Dobson mantra look practically GBD.
Yeah my dh had a bike thrown at him once:(

[Serafine]

The statistics show 65% for kids 3 and under across the us

That is even MORE than I expected. :shrug

Most of the secular spankers I know don't really spank when kids get older...they resort to grounding, taking away things, and timeouts and loss of privileges.

But, when they are older babies up to school age...spanking/smacking hands or legs is definitely a norm, as shown even by the statistic you posted. :yes

[Heather Micaela]

That is even MORE than I expected. :shrug

Most of the secular spankers I know don't really spank when kids get older...they resort to grounding, taking away things, and timeouts and loss of privileges.

But, when they are older babies up to school age...spanking/smacking hands or legs is definitely a norm, as shown even by the statistic you posted. :yes
That is what I meant. Most stop when other punishments work. It is only in christian circles where I have seen it go beyond preschool.

[TestifyToLove]

Spanking, like all forms of physical discipline, are considered a sociological evolution. As cultures evolve, they generally become more tolerant, more respectful of the rights and humanity of ALL individuals and less violent in general. Spanking just comes into that full spectrum of what gets phased out.

In the 1600 and 1700s, it was cultural revolution that priests and parenting experts began to espouse the ideology that children (and slaves) should *ONLY* be struck on the buttocks, as striking them elsewhere, especially the head, could cause permenant damage to them.

It is ironic that African societies actually became more violent and not less. The more interact they had with Europeans, the more they stripped women, children and slaves of their rights and resorted to violent interactions with the weaker members of society. So, it can certainly be argued that the trends out of violence are a European cultural evolution. However, thanks to the great age of Imperialism, you would be hard-pressed to find ANY culture in this world not heavily influenced by the Europeans at this point.

[Patrysha]

If you listened to my husband, you might assume that our family spanks. He talks big, but when it comes down to it...it just hasn't happened often. Five times between all three children. Not zero, but not as often as we got attacked as children...both of us having come from abusive type families and all...

I don't think overall it's an American thing as a people thing...

[ThirstyTurtle]

:popcorn

[rjy9343]

Don't really anything to contribute, but this is a very interesting thread.

[DoulaClara]

I think it sort of depends on what you define as a "thing," you know? For example, are we comparing industrialized nations, or everywhere? My brother was part of a battalion of Marines that was deployed to an area between Iraq and Syria and he saw something being done to a child there that haunted him like crazy. He really won't talk about it (and I'm not going to press the issue) but in the tribal villages where he was located, it sounds like a lot of really awful stuff happened to children, as a cultural norm.

I think there are a chunk of Americans who hold the ol' fashioned spanking as something that, like apple pie and blue jeans, makes them just button-bursting proud of themselves and their country. I think that's pretty unique.

I also know that the Iroquois people used to dunk kids in water as a punishment. Pre- European influence. I still have friends from school that talk about how their moms or grandmas used to toss them into the shower and turn it on when they were tantruming.

People do and have done so many bizarre things to children for a long time. Frankly, we should know better (and be doing better) by this point, but if the OP was curious about Americans holding onto it like some fascinating badge, I'd say that in my family, in my hometown area, and in my current town, I'd say yes- many Americans wax poetic about how life would just be 50's-eriffic if every child was spanked. :no2

[cheri]

In the South and parts of the Midwest, it is totally the norm to spank. It's cultural and isn't limited to Christian circles at all.

I don't think that hitting children is an American thing, though. There are many countries where children are beaten by their parents to the point of bruises or even death, and nothing is done to the parents for that.

[jubles]

I want to echo that it's not common to have the ritualistic aspect to it that people on here have spoken about, or even the severity that has been described. And it's rare to have it preached from the pulpit. Our church did have a sermon recently which touched on it (because we're in a series going through the whole book of Proverbs), but the emphasis was on discipline being about teaching your child. The preacher (not our minister, but one of the associates, who has adult children) said they have smacked, and think that's OK, but that the main point of the rod verses isn't about whether or not you smack, but about whether or not you are disciplining your child in the sense of teaching them what is right and what is not, and helping them grow up into self-disiplined adults. I would be shocked to hear whole sermons on smacking in the church circles I move in. My church is conservative and reformed, but the smacking thing isn't a big issue there. The parenting section in the church book stall is full of things about teaching the Gospel to your child. The one book that mentions smacking says you can (in a controlled very limited way) but says that it is not a Biblical command. I have never seen Dobson, SACH, Ezzo, Pearls (definitely not in the UK) or anyone like there. The big emphasis is how to bring up your child in the faith by teaching them the Gospel.

I have also never had a Christian friend make me feel bad for not smacking. My closest friend with children smacks very very occasionally but the whole dynamic of their home could not be described as punitive or adversarial. Her MIL (an American, interestingly) has urged some Pearl-esque materials, but my friend and her husband think that style of parenting (with it's breaking the will emphasis) is totally unBiblical. They come from the more conservative free churches in the UK who are more likely to emphasis smacking.

I am in Africa now, and yes there is a lot of co-sleeping, babywearing and extended breastfeeding, but please don't let that fool you into thinking that society is very AP. I have spent significant time in two African countries and small children and babies are largely ignored and very very understimulated. Many will just sit for extended periods not trying to explore. When the children are older they may be severely beaten and that is completely accepted in the culture. We share a compound with a local pastor, and we frequently hear his wife screaming at and beating the children (thankfully R and E have no idea what is going on - they are still completely unaware that some parents do that).

[KSL]

WARNING: May be sensitive, about spanking.
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My Haitian in-laws, who are VERY AP and gentle with babies (my MIL told me when DS was born that babies always should sleep next to their mom and dad until they are big enough to sleep in bed with their brother and sister, that I HAD to breastfeed DS until he was 18 months, that it was bizarre that Americans would put their baby in a box down the hall from them to sleep and that it should be illegal for babies to CIO :heart).

However, my MIL was also (in)famous for her spankings, my husband and BIL were talking about it last week and joking that if you sneezed his mom would spank you-- and spanking meant whipping on the legs with a branch or a piece of dried goat skin. Like, not a smack on the toosh, a real whipping. My DH was also spanked this way in school for talking too much or making mistakes in his lessons. He said my MIL also named her spanking goat skin thingy "regie gasson," loosely translated "little boy regulator."

A close friend from Nigeria was actually discussing this issue with my DH (they were comparing stories) and my Nigerian friend (who is actually half Nigerian and half Trinidadian) relayed the following stories:
1) he was beaten on the hands, legs, and butt with a cane that he had to go and pick himself from the woods (!!!) if he made mistakes in his lessons in elementary school in Nigeria.
2) He once saw a girl beaten so badly in front of the whole class that he almost threw up (she had not done her homework for a few days so her dad beat her in front of the whole class to embarrass/shame her)
3) he had heard stories in Trinidad about parents throwing hot oil from frying pans onto their kid's backs for coming in late at night.

Those are just a few of his stories, there were more:(

So, no, this makes me think that spanking is not an American thing, it's a human thing.

And I am trying to process how people like my MIL, who are so very much more gentle and responsive toward babies than most Americans, are so harsh in their discipline for older children. My DH cannot imagine NOT spanking children, he feels like he doesn't want to go to his parent's extreme (and, actually, his dad wasn't the main spanker at all, it was his mom- I don't think he recalls ever getting spanked by his dad, and my impression is that most of the spanking is done by moms in Haiti and so that might work in my favor, bc DH doesn't have a role model of a dad-as-spanker) but he also just can't fathom raising kids with no spanking. (That's a whole other topic for a whole other thread, though).

FWIW, my Nigerian/Trinidadian friend, who just completed a dissertation comparing the legacies of forced colonization and open settlement colonization in slave-holding former colonies in Africa and the Caribbean believes that the slavery and colonialism have a lot to do with the disciplinary practices in both Africa and Caribbean.

ETA: FWIW, DH is kind of shocked that I asked him if he resents his mom for spanking him. Like, he wonders where I would even come up with that question? In his mind, his mom loved him (and I know she does) and sacrificed and worked her butt off so that eh could go to school. And she did- he says yes, she spanked me, but she was also very tender with me, got up early to help me with all my school work, worked super, super hard at her sewing business to provide for me, etc. He genuinely loves her and I really don't think he holds any grudges against her. Not saying that makes what she did ok, not at all, just saying that DH is a very gentle and patient person. I don't want it to seem like I'm throwing him under the bus. And MIL is one of the most committed Christians I have ever met- takes in kids whose parents can't care for them, starts off every single day on her knees in prayer, etc. She is the real deal but would laugh in your face if you suggested parents shouldn't spank. I wonder if living in kind-of rougher conditions and having to work hard to keep lots of kids contained/safe has anything to do with it?

[Mom2fourofthem]

Spanking aside, I think the way children are viewed in this country is just plain wrong.

[amieids]

I'm in Tamworth in the UK and here about half of my friends 'smack' their children and half don't. ALL of them use 'the naughty step'. Supernanny is a guru amongst my peers here.

For my son we use a 'thinking spot', something which you could say is an adaptation of the 'naughty step.' It's basically a place where we go together and talk about whatever he has just done, he usually says sorry and we have a big cuddle. I find it helpful just to get him out of the situation he has struggled in or his actions spiral. I don't know whether it is technically grace based discipline or not but it helps in our house.

Sorry, that was a tangent but I've typed it now so I'l leave it!

[staceylayne]

This is all fascinating.

:popcorn

I've only ever lived in Bible Belt USA, but my guess is folks all over he world spank, smack, hit, slap their kids. I think Spanking as a prescribed, ritualistic institution is probably unique to North America. Just my guess. :shrug

[gardenfreshmama]

I was JUST talking to a Zimbabwe mama about this a few days ago. She said where she lived, the common punishment is a switch with a small tree branch, which the child picks himself :shiver.

[BarefootBetsy]

I agree that it's a human thing. It's human nature to strike someone when they do something you don't like or that hurts you. My 1.5 year old dd hits her sisters when she gets frustrated with them. Even though I've never allowed myself to hit any of my children, I still get the urge to sometimes.

Those two things are pretty much all I need to convince me that spanking, smacking, hitting, whateveryoucallit, is a human and sin-nature reaction. It's difficult for most people to not spank - I've come to that conclusion after talking to a great many friends and reading threads here about struggles with spanking even when the people in question believe it's a wrong thing to do.

It's not a natural reaction to turn the other cheek... it goes against our very nature, unlike hitting the other person which is almost automatic (I've had to stop my hand in midair when my children hurt me because it's automatic to lash out when I'm hurt).

American Christians have ritualized and justified hitting children and the rest of society accepted it for the most part. Thankfully that acceptance is fading in general, albeit slowly. Even in the deep south city where I live, I don't see people openly threatening spankings or hitting their children in public like I used to see when I was younger. It's not as hidden as it was when I lived near Seattle and I'm sure it happens more than I think it does, but it's definitely not as openly prevalent as it used to be when I'd come down here to visit during the summers as a child/teen.

---------- Post added at 04:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

I was JUST talking to a Zimbabwe mama about this a few days ago. She said where she lived, the common punishment is a switch with a small tree branch, which the child picks himself :shiver.

Sounds like what happened to my mom when she was a child... choosing that hickory switch :cry

[rjy9343]

ETA: FWIW, DH is kind of shocked that I asked him if he resents his mom for spanking him. Like, he wonders where I would even come up with that question? In his mind, his mom loved him (and I know she does) and sacrificed and worked her butt off so that eh could go to school. And she did- he says yes, she spanked me, but she was also very tender with me, got up early to help me with all my school work, worked super, super hard at her sewing business to provide for me, etc. He genuinely loves her and I really don't think he holds any grudges against her. Not saying that makes what she did ok, not at all, just saying that DH is a very gentle and patient person. I don't want it to seem like I'm throwing him under the bus. And MIL is one of the most committed Christians I have ever met- takes in kids whose parents can't care for them, starts off every single day on her knees in prayer, etc. She is the real deal but would laugh in your face if you suggested parents shouldn't spank.
That describes my mother. Not as extreme, but quick with a switch. But she definitely went the distance for the four of us and anyone else she thought needed anything. She is the real deal as a Christian. I am the oddball that thinks that you can raise without spanking.

[Earthmummy07]

I'm in Tamworth in the UK and here about half of my friends 'smack' their children and half don't. ALL of them use 'the naughty step'. Supernanny is a guru amongst my peers here.

For my son we use a 'thinking spot', something which you could say is an adaptation of the 'naughty step.' It's basically a place where we go together and talk about whatever he has just done, he usually says sorry and we have a big cuddle. I find it helpful just to get him out of the situation he has struggled in or his actions spiral. I don't know whether it is technically grace based discipline or not but it helps in our house.

Sorry, that was a tangent but I've typed it now so I'l leave it!

Ok, completely off on a tangent, but if you're only in Tamworth, we're quite close :heart

[CelticJourney]

Three thoughts:

1) as someone living in the South, I think southerners TALK more about spanking than they actually do it. I would suspect the percentage of children that receive corporal punishment here as compared to other places is probably pretty close, southerners just aren't embarassed to tell you about it (sadly)

2) as an anthropologist, I can say the things we humans often do to our children can be pretty awful - limiting the discussion to spanking is putting a bias on the subject. An example would be a group which parent extremely permissively until the child is x age and then they wake up and mommy is gone (weaning the extreme way) - trauma much?

3) while we can't quantify or negate all the negative parenting practices, we can focus on how these practices are written about and preached in a formal way in whatever community we are in, when we are called to do it.

[ServingGod]

Here is an article about child rearing in France and specifically how intensely strict parents are there
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/features/3632992/Is-Maman-mean-or-magnifique.html

Lots of references about hitting, and cruelty, which could be potentially upsetting to some.

[marbles]

I'm with BarefootBetsy. I think it's a fallen-human thing. I think it's one of the practices that Christians have just absorbed and called "the right way" just like so many other things throughout history have been accepted and justified without biblical cause. There a so many fallen-human tendencies just like hitting that we see change with the influence of God in people's lives. I think it goes right along with treatment of women and animals. I don't think you can isolate hitting as a cultural thing, although some cultures are more openly accepting of it depending on their values. In some places there are rules for how and when and why to hit women, too.

[megmac]

It's the norm in South Africa to hit children. No-one would bat an eye if you did it in public.

[purplerose]

Spanking/smacking is not anywhere near as prevelant in the UK in my experience. Definately not in the thought out, pre-determined way that it is set up as an actual discipline method in the US. It's more a kind of a 'parent occasionally gets frustrated and swats' thing than a 'we shall intentionally stop and spank our children for XYZ offenses'.

It's definately not the cultural norm with the 'opt in/out' philosphy it attracts in the US :no

REALLY?! We lived in the UK for 3 years and I thought quite the opposite. At least where we lived, British parents were mean to their kids in public.........degrading, yelling and had no qualms about smacking the face, butt, etc right there in public. No one ever stopped to watch......just kept moving like it was nothing. :shrug

[ThreeKids]

The way I interpreted part of Earthmummy's statement was that if UK parents do hit, they just do it, not as part of a prescribed philosophy such as will many times apply in the US.

When I was a kid in Kentucky, people turned a blind eye to some over the top spankings that were outright beatings in my friend's family because they followed formulas like not looking angry (as far as I know) and only hitting buttocks, whereas, if a kid showed up to school with a bruise anywhere else, it was quickly called abuse. The same people who would applaud the school for displaying a paddle might be the ones who confront the parent who slaps a kid in the face. Of the adult/child face slaps I've witnessed or received, most were followed by quick and profuse apologies. My point is there's an "etiquette" to hitting children, do it one way = applauded, do it another = horrible.

[rjy9343]

The way I interpreted part of Earthmummy's statement was that if UK parents do hit, they just do it, not as part of a prescribed philosophy such as will many times apply in the US.

When I was a kid in Kentucky, people turned a blind eye to some over the top spankings that were outright beatings in my friend's family because they followed formulas like not looking angry (as far as I know) and only hitting buttocks, whereas, if a kid showed up to school with a bruise anywhere else, it was quickly called abuse. The same people who would applaud the school for displaying a paddle might be the ones who confront the parent who slaps a kid in the face. Of the adult/child face slaps I've witnessed or received, most were followed by quick and profuse apologies. My point is there's an "etiquette" to hitting children, do it one way = applauded, do it another = horrible.
Etiquette to hitting children is the best description I have ever heard for spanking and so forth. Sad, but spot on.

[CelticJourney]

The way I interpreted part of Earthmummy's statement was that if UK parents do hit, they just do it, not as part of a prescribed philosophy such as will many times apply in the US.

When I was a kid in Kentucky, people turned a blind eye to some over the top spankings that were outright beatings in my friend's family because they followed formulas like not looking angry (as far as I know) and only hitting buttocks, whereas, if a kid showed up to school with a bruise anywhere else, it was quickly called abuse. The same people who would applaud the school for displaying a paddle might be the ones who confront the parent who slaps a kid in the face. Of the adult/child face slaps I've witnessed or received, most were followed by quick and profuse apologies. My point is there's an "etiquette" to hitting children, do it one way = applauded, do it another = horrible.

This might have less to do with etiquette and more to do with how each state's law is written regarding what constitutes abuse. For example in my state it is legal abuse to hit a child anywhere except the bottom. So it might not be that people approve the traditional spankings, but are powerless to confront it.

[jubles]

REALLY?! We lived in the UK for 3 years and I thought quite the opposite. At least where we lived, British parents were mean to their kids in public.........degrading, yelling and had no qualms about smacking the face, butt, etc right there in public. No one ever stopped to watch......just kept moving like it was nothing. :shrug

Where did you live? In the Scottish city where we live (when in the UK) I have seen parents yell at their kids, but never hit them. Most of the yellers have been single mums from a lower socio-economic background, who are probably struggling and may not have had a good example from their own parents.

Even when I was a child and smacking was more common, I don't think there was much of the very formal smacking that seems common in some parts of the US.

[Kailie]

My personal experience:

- I live in a very Liberal Canadian city and am not part of a conservative Christian circle

- most people I know say they *would* spank but when I talk to them very few have ever done it and those that have usually only a few times

- a co-worker recently posted on facebook about calling the police after seeing a father hit his 2 year old for throwing up in his car. She had over 60 comments, all telling her what a good thing she did and most had a very anti-spanking tone :shrug3

- have noticed among certain ethnic groups that I teach that spanking is very much the norm. When I told one of my classes I had only ever been spanked once in my life they were AMAZED

So my life in white middle class secular Canada is pretty anti-spanking

[TestifyToLove]

Sociologically, I can tell you that U.S. Southerns don't just talk about spanking more, they are in fact more violent in ALL aspects than elsewhere in the U.S.

Sadly, this is not merely a perception. The UCR clearly shows higher incidence of assault, homicide and use of a firearm in both assaults and homicide in the Southern states. The violence shown to children is merely a continuation of the violence which pervades the culture at large.

It is as violent in the Southern states as it is in Urban minority communities of large cities. And yes, it means there is more spanking prevelant as well.

For me, I have a unique experience of watching the acceptance of violence against children. In Kentucky, it was acceptable to spank but nothing else. In a large metropolitan area of the South, it was not really acceptable, nor discussed in polite company. Yet, in a smaller southern city, I cannot sit through a semester of ANY class at the University (and it doesn't MATTER what the subject matter is) without a discussion about beating children, all types of violence towards children, how this is what is wrong with society and how children need to be beaten MORE than they are. Usually, my professor stands there trying to gently contradict the discussion and I become a lone voice of descent in a room full of people who think smacking a child in the face is a GOOD discipline tactic. There are a lot of non-trads at my University (about 40%) so sadly I cannot say it is lack of parenting experience leading this mentality. Probably 30% of every classroom is adult students with children who admit to such discipline tactics with their own children and are applauded by other students in the class.

[megmac]

REALLY?! We lived in the UK for 3 years and I thought quite the opposite. At least where we lived, British parents were mean to their kids in public.........degrading, yelling and had no qualms about smacking the face, butt, etc right there in public. No one ever stopped to watch......just kept moving like it was nothing. :shrug

I'd also like to know where you were.

In my 10 years in the UK I have never seen anything even vaguely resembling that.:shrug3

[LilySue]

The way I interpreted part of Earthmummy's statement was that if UK parents do hit, they just do it, not as part of a prescribed philosophy such as will many times apply in the US.




Yes, I am English and this would be my experience of watching other UK parents....however in the last three years I have moved out of my very liberal Quaker Meeting and started attending an evanglical church. And last year from the pulpit the minister, who I would describe as a good guy with some great spiritual insights( but as a Quaker I was and still am getting my head round him as my spiritual leader) gave a sermon on child discipline which included the whole "spare the rod" philosophy and yes he recommended a prescribed philosophy of spanking ( he recommended a wooden spoon.)

[mom24]

I've lived in the US (CA) for 10 years and I've never witnessed any spanking. I know of a couple Moms who have told me they had just spanked, but I think they were mentioning it because they felt bad about it. One says she does it for running in the street, but I've never seen it. In the UK, lived in the SW for 6 years, I've seen children hit and sworn at several times. One tween boy slapped across the face and a toddler whose pants were pulled down on a busy street and spanked 3 or 4 times. I was horrified but one one else seemed to notice. In South Africa were I grew up, I know friends were spanked, and I remember seeing some slapping of hands. There was a lot of corporal punishment at school (worse for the boys than the girls). This was in the 80's I don't know if it has changed. I've never come across any books by the authors mentioned here - Ezzos, Pearls etc. I'm not sure if this is sensitive (the part about the toddler) because I'm new but I'll add it just in case.

[Lila]

I'd also like to know where you were.

In my 10 years in the UK I have never seen anything even vaguely resembling that.:shrug3

I've seen a parent scream and slap their child (about 10) in the face once. :( There were 2 police officers who were actually there, they seemed in two minds as to whether to intervene.

Apart from that incident, I have never seen anything like that. I've seen angry yelling and a few smacked bottoms of toddlers, but not often, and it wasn't seen as an ok thing to do.

[RubySlippers]

I've had Indonesian, Taiwanese, and Chinese friends who shared that spanking was culturally normal.

[Kailie]

Wanted to add - I spent some time in Denmark and I never saw a parent be anything but kind. Now I did not speak the language but I never heard a raise voice or a harsh tone in public. Granted I did not spend a lot of time around children while I was there but the ones I did see were always treated well.

[purplerose]

I'd also like to know where you were.

In my 10 years in the UK I have never seen anything even vaguely resembling that.:shrug3

We were in North Yorkshire.........Harrogate. I used to see it in town, but mostly in the NHS doctor's offices. It wasn't an every day occurance, but much more than I'd seen here. :shrug

[Lila]

We were in North Yorkshire.........Harrogate. I used to see it in town, but mostly in the NHS doctor's offices. It wasn't an every day occurance, but much more than I'd seen here. :shrug

Oh, I remember now, we talked about it a year or so back. You were at Menwith Hill, right? I lived in Harrogate until I was 16. Thing about Harrogate is that there is quite a large class divide that splits the town, with quite a large population being undereducated and underprivileged, and I think a lot of them didn't really know how to deal with toddler behaviour. I hope that doesn't sound classist, I can't think of another way to explain it. :blush Where I am in Derbyshire, the class divide is far less stark.

[EnglishRose]

Oh, I remember now, we talked about it a year or so back. You were at Menwith Hill, right? I lived in Harrogate until I was 16. Thing about Harrogate is that there is quite a large class divide that splits the town, with quite a large population being undereducated and underprivileged, and I think a lot of them didn't really know how to deal with toddler behaviour. I hope that doesn't sound classist, I can't think of another way to explain it. :blush Where I am in Derbyshire, the class divide is far less stark.

yeah, my experience too is that there's definitely a class divide inregards to smacking and shouting :yes (obviously cruelty occurs in all classes but open hostility towards children seems to be more acceptable in lower class areas).

I'm now wondering if our friends from other parts of the world (usa / canada /???) see this kind of divide too?

[purplerose]

Oh, I remember now, we talked about it a year or so back. You were at Menwith Hill, right? I lived in Harrogate until I was 16. Thing about Harrogate is that there is quite a large class divide that splits the town, with quite a large population being undereducated and underprivileged, and I think a lot of them didn't really know how to deal with toddler behaviour. I hope that doesn't sound classist, I can't think of another way to explain it. :blush Where I am in Derbyshire, the class divide is far less stark.

Oh yes, Harrogate is quite "posh"......and we lived in a "posh" part of town, but our doctor's office was not. Definitely the classist division. And yes, I do believe it is a class thing here in the states too. Not always, but you tend to see lower socioeconomic people blatantly degrading/spanking their child in public. But who knows what the "upperclass" do behind closed doors, yk. :sad

[Victorious]

Absolutely poverty=violence just about everywhere :yes

[anotherone]

I'm from South Africa as well and spanking is the norm. A couple of my FB friends are acquaintances from high school and they have discussed spanking their kids or how effective spanking is quite often. FTR, I've only heard about American influences in Christian circles very recently, so it's not like they're devout Pearl or Ezzo followers. It's just the way children were raised in SA. That being said, I also know friends who were never spanked or got one spanking their entire lifetime. In the many African tribes in South Africa, it seems that cruelty towards small people is the norm. In general throughout the country, people seem to favor the "children are seen and not heard" approach and they are not really valued as legitimate people. They frequently expect perfect behavior from children. When I was in school, I got hit with a ruler or wooden stick for things like talking in class or homework not done. In fact, I learned my English tenses and sentence structures that way. Everyone lined up next to the teacher's desk and she had a long, wooden rod. Every time you made a mistake, she'd plant one on your bottom. The one friend I had here is South African and I've chosen to not have social contact with her anymore, because she thinks hitting my children when she chooses to is her right. She expects perfect behavior and manners from them, but has no problem screaming in their faces for the simplest thing. Most recently, she yelled in my son's face for speaking to me while she was trying to listen if her drunk husband had woken up from passing out. It was very unexpected and I just looked at her in shock. So, there's a great double standard too. People expect children to be perfect, but apparently don't have to have the same values or manners themselves.

[breezy88]

The law (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0510-e.htm) as it stands in Canada, in case anyone is interested. It's not perfect, but it's progress. It's been my own experience in rural SK that spanking is definitely more prevalent in church circles. I know very, very few secular people who would take a hand to their children. Our former church taught spanking from the pulpit when I was a child and there was an official school paddle, which was used. They're a lot better at hiding it now since the law was refined, but they still endorse it for all ages (even under two, but they won't say that from the pulpit anymore). :sick

My hubby is in law enforcement and according to his research on the law and also the related court cases the current rule is that a parent can spank a child from age 2-12, with an open hand only, on the bum only. No bare bums, no implements.

In addition, I have to say that I do think that spanking in the US is very different from here. People were spanked here and still are but it seems milder. Not systematic. People here have never heard of the Pearls, or Roy Lessin or Bill Gothard etc. Also, you don't hear about multiple spankings etc. It just seems like parents smack their kids on the butt now and then and also I've seen it on the hand. Unfortunately Tripp is making an insurgence into Canadian churches so the systematic spankings might start coming. Although my sister who is pro-spanking went to a Tripp conference and even she disagrees with his way and thinks it is weird, too much, and nasty.

[megmac]

We were in North Yorkshire.........Harrogate. I used to see it in town, but mostly in the NHS doctor's offices. It wasn't an every day occurance, but much more than I'd seen here. :shrug

I lived in Harrogate, I must just have been living in a bubble I just can't remember seeing anything like that.:shrug3

Generally I find people around us are appalled by sspanking. Like the others I believe it's more prone to a certain group of people instead of a widespread thing.

[mokamoto]

The law (http://www.parl.gc.ca/content/LOP/ResearchPublications/prb0510-e.htm) as it stands in Canada, in case anyone is interested. It's not perfect, but it's progress. It's been my own experience in rural SK that spanking is definitely more prevalent in church circles. I know very, very few secular people who would take a hand to their children. Our former church taught spanking from the pulpit when I was a child and there was an official school paddle, which was used. They're a lot better at hiding it now since the law was refined, but they still endorse it for all ages (even under two, but they won't say that from the pulpit anymore). :sick

My Christian School in GA had a paddle that was widely used for discipline. :-( it makes my stomach sick thinking of it now. My Dad told stories of having to pick his own switch off the tree in the garden when he was "bad."

[ThreeKids]

My dad sent me for my own switch, with specifications for length and the size of each end specified by showing me which of my fingers was to be the same thickness. I don't recall my dad ever being severe with spankings. Fetching a switch was just a step in the process if it was to be a switch that time. I was very tiny to even be able to follow such directions, even pointed at a tree that was growing by the porch so I could reach it, but it wasn't any more horrifying to me than any delay that causes you to anticipate the spanking, probably because I had no reason to think that the spanking might be over the top. The same kind of delay would happen if you got in trouble while on a car trip.

If he'd ever sent me for a switch when I was older, I might have had enough reasoning in me to be glad he was getting the cool down time, as opposed to how accessible a belt or hand could be. I remember the intimidating flourish he'd give to reaching for a belt, and that was an annoying step not involved in switch fetching. I also remember the school giving its paddle a stupid nickname and switch fetching circumvents that displaying the implement in the building ickiness that could go on with other implements.

[walkwallfall]

I am learning so much from this tread!!!

[Tasmanian Saint]

My experience here in Australia is similar to what the UK mamas describe, although Dobson and Ezzo are popular so no doubt we have more of the ritualised thing happening within Christian circles - but Australia is a very secular country, so 'Christian circles' doesn't represent a whole lot of the population.
I saw a woman smack her 12ish son on the bottom at the park the other day (he made out it was more painful than it probably was - good on him ;)) which greatly surprised me. I don't think I've seen anyone physically punish in public since I've been a parent, apart from maybe the odd slap on the hand of a toddler going for something dangerous - heard threats, but not seen it happen - and I'd assume that smacking anyone over 8 at any time would be very rare, but I don't really know :shrug

[mama j]

This is very interesting. I've always wondered what parenting was like in other countries and cultures.

[Annainprogress]

I don't often see smacking (and as previously said, smacking refers here to open handed hit on bottom or hand, usually one but maybe a couple, spanking I hear as multiple, usually bare bottom, although in my family that was always still open hand, I sometimes have to remind myself when I see spanking referenced on here that the visceral reaction *may* be to more than the poster actually meant happened). I hear it threatened, and I have no doubt that the threats will at times be carried out, and swearing at/screaming at children very frequently (low socioeconomic area). I see hands being smacked more than bottoms I think. Bare-bottom spanking had gone more underground since someone was prosecuted for it. Most families I know use a range of techniques, mostly involving naughty step/chair/time out, or loss of pocket money, with smacking being there but not frequent. Though I do know someone who uses hand smacking a lot with toddlers.

In my previous church (part of the same group as the one I'm in now) I heard smacking taught once, in an evening meeting in a house not the "church service", but it was by the pastor. And it wasn't for "everything". But my current pastor talks about not exasperating your children, knowing what works for your children to encourage them to do what you want (e.g. Get home quickly). I know they do occasionally smack, but it is occasional afaik.

[Peaceful Meadows]

I think that hitting/spanking/hurting children with words or other tools is a spiritual problem. Satan doesn't like children because they are so innocent and pure so "discipline" is the one tool that the Great Deceiver can use to get at the innocent and keep parents and children from truly bonding. It's also the only way that he can infiltrate the church and cause those who love God to do his bidding. :(

TBH, trampling on children is a world wide problem not just a USA problem. Maybe in certain areas it's not as blatant and maybe upper class people in some areas will not spank but I bet those non-spankers do other things that show those children that they are less than their parents. Do they spend time interacting with their children or do their children spend more time being shuttled here and there and everywhere then they do interacting and relating to their parents? Do day cares, schools, nannies, and friends see the children more than their parents?

Satan uses so many creative ways to keep parents from truly bonding with their children. He is a very sneaky, sneaky, sneaky guy.

:duck