Dobson

[LovinBeingMommy]

Can someone give me some basics about Dobson? I've seen several places here that he's not good news... I know my parents read some of his books and listened to his radio show (I heard it, too, but don't remember much). I have a feeling they'll be pushing me to read Bringing Up Boys any time now. I'd just kinda like a heads-up and maybe some educated arguments against it.
(My parents would bring him up when they didn't wanna do something. "Dobson says kids shouldn't have a tv in their rooms" when my brother wanted one. Stuff like that. I always enjoyed "yeah, but" when he did that. "Why can't we have a tv if I have a laptop with a DVD drive? Not like we get channels on a tv, anyway, so it's the same!" Maybe I was an evil child/teenager...:shrug3)

I'm still new at parenting in general (and doing it earlier than I'd planned) so I don't really know how I'm planning to handle things and am figuring it out as I go. I really like what I'm reading here and on similar sites and want to learn more. Since I'm living with my parents, I have to be as educated as possible when rejecting old ideas/trying new ones.

[happyhousewife]

My aunt gave me Bringing up Boys a few years ago. I never read it. He has some weird ideas about homosexuality. iirc?

[Peridot]

dobson assumes every child is out to overcome his parent. :sigh


In other words, he assumes that the 'sin nature' the Bible talks about is a present and active evil- out to get the better of every mom and Dad at all costs. He has a lot of 50's and 60's child psychology to 'back up' what he says. A lot of it is classic, 'kid's gotta learn who's boss, best to make a painful impression so he won't forget'. :(

My parents used his books too. I've read (some of) them and I have them for reference, if you want to ask any particular questions.

The main difference btw Dobson and Grace-based discipline is that for Dobson- the word 'discipline' means 'punish'. For us, here, the word discipline keeps its actual meaning which is to teach and instruct. We assume that 'bad' things kids do are genuine mistakes, and correct from that angle.

Actual teaching starts as soon as a child is born. :)

Arm's of Love's website has been immensely helpful to me, for real steps to teach my kids.

http://aolff.org/

[Kiara.I]

Well if they just give you a copy, you could always say, "Oh, thanks!" and just never read it. :shrug3

Are they likely to *ask* you about it? Or would they just assume you'd read it?

[Peridot]

Well if they just give you a copy, you could always say, "Oh, thanks!" and just never read it. :shrug3

Are they likely to *ask* you about it? Or would they just assume you'd read it?


I think if she's living with them, they would know if she didn't read it. They would expect her to put it into action.

[Kiara.I]

:doh Oh right.

[Thankfulforgrace]

From the few things I've read of Dobson it seems to be very much "us" (the parent) vs. "them" (the child). I find this parenting to be both sad and a setting for frustration and problems. :hug2

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

For me, my biggest "ah ha" moment came when reading Unconditional Parenting. It is not a Christian book but it really made me think about how I want to approach my child and to work with her instead of having to "win" the battles. For practicial stuff I like Playful Parenting. And of course Crystal's book rocks :)

Another book if your parents want you to read a male "Christian role model" author is Clay Clarkson's book or Kimmels Grace Based Parenting (although sadly they aren't 100% non spanking).

[ShiriChayim]

My experience with Dobson is that he's very adversarial and that he doesn't have a good concept of developmentally appropriate behavior. The attitude he brings to things is that a child's inappropriate actions are intentionally aimed at the parent's to "win" and therefore the parent must make sure that THEY win at all costs :doh

[LovinBeingMommy]

Well if they just give you a copy, you could always say, "Oh, thanks!" and just never read it. :shrug3

Are they likely to *ask* you about it? Or would they just assume you'd read it?

I do about half my reading on the couch and have a tendency to talk about literally everything I read. I love to learn and I love to share what I learn, so my parents always know what nonfiction I'm reading and what I think about it.

From the few things I've read of Dobson it seems to be very much "us" (the parent) vs. "them" (the child). I find this parenting to be both sad and a setting for frustration and problems. :hug2

---------- Post added at 06:16 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:12 PM ----------

For me, my biggest "ah ha" moment came when reading Unconditional Parenting. It is not a Christian book but it really made me think about how I want to approach my child and to work with her instead of having to "win" the battles. For practicial stuff I like Playful Parenting. And of course Crystal's book rocks :)

Another book if your parents want you to read a male "Christian role model" author is Clay Clarkson's book or Kimmels Grace Based Parenting (although sadly they aren't 100% non spanking).

I'm really afraid I'm going to reach a point where I discipline differently from my parents and they won't listen. :( I've said to them that I'm very against spanking and my mom's answer is always along the lines of, "but there are times that there just aren't any other options." *sigh*

I haven't actually invested in many books because I'm not exactly rolling in money, but I'll set my grandmother to watching the thrift stores and other used book places she frequents for some of those. :)

[Thankfulforgrace]

I get all of my parenting books through my local library ;). Don't know if that's an option for you where you live or not. I don't have room for any more books :(

[LovinBeingMommy]

The library in town is pretty much a joke. The adult section is small and mainly horror. What's left is children's, mostly lower level. It costs a lot to get a card for the libraries in other towns and right now there's weather to worry about with getting them turned in on time. I really want to go to a library again, but it's a royal pain. :(

[Thankfulforgrace]

That stinks. I know some love paperswap dot com I think it is called. I've never used it though. I *think* you just have to pay for shipping?

[Synesthesia]

Avoid dobson like the plague. Dude acts like babies lay in their crib thinking about how when you change their diaper they will pee right on you just to annoy you. He acts like a newborn is laying there thinking, "I know my parents are probably busy, but I will cry for no reason just to ruin their night."
It's not the case. Also his point of view when it comes to boys, a bit ridiculous. As if a boy being sensitive makes him gay or your 2 year old boy can toddle in your shoes and you'd scream AUGH! OH NO! SOON HE'LL BE WEARING DRAG AND BEING GAY. And he's just two.
The dude's point of view is antiquated. Not worth listening to when there's folks who are not pseudo-Freudians.

[bliss]

Goggle "Dobson dog quote" to read about him beating a dachshund who dared defy him. :mad

[Maggirayne]

Peridot didn't mention she's blogging and critiquing Dobson. ;)

Here's her blog: Dare to Disciple (http://greenegem.wordpress.com/)

[Synesthesia]

Goggle "Dobson dog quote" to read about him beating a dachshund who dared defy him. :mad


I forgot about that.
How are you going to go after a tiny little dog with a belt! Dude could have picked up the dog and moved it. I bet he wouldn't have tried that with a rottweiler or a German Shepard. Grrrrrrrrr

[Peridot]

I forgot about that.
How are you going to go after a tiny little dog with a belt! Dude could have picked up the dog and moved it. I bet he wouldn't have tried that with a rottweiler or a German Shepard. Grrrrrrrrr


Which in a way, is precisely the point. You wouldn't try any of those techniques on a grown person.

lost my train of thought... shoot. :pout

[Zooey]

Avoid dobson like the plague. Dude acts like babies lay in their crib thinking about how when you change their diaper they will pee right on you just to annoy you. He acts like a newborn is laying there thinking, "I know my parents are probably busy, but I will cry for no reason just to ruin their night."
It's not the case. Also his point of view when it comes to boys, a bit ridiculous. As if a boy being sensitive makes him gay or your 2 year old boy can toddle in your shoes and you'd scream AUGH! OH NO! SOON HE'LL BE WEARING DRAG AND BEING GAY. And he's just two.
The dude's point of view is antiquated. Not worth listening to when there's folks who are not pseudo-Freudians.
:clap:clap:clap

Goggle "Dobson dog quote" to read about him beating a dashaund who dared defy him. :mad
That story makes me :sick:mad:sick:madnauseous.:sick:sick:sick
I t5hink Dobson has issues. Serious issues. As in, instead of being a psychologist, he needs to hire a psychologist. And not stick his nose out the door until after, say, 37 years of daily therapy.

[rjy9343]

My parents were big into the punitive/authoritarian style parenting, so I know where you're coming from in the no spank area. I have already had this conversation with mom and my brothers that are parents. To say they are unsupportive is an understatement. (Not to mention heart breaking since I love my niece and nephew like they are my own kids). If you have not heard this yet, you will hear some variation of you must spank so that you can win and show that you are in charge. If you do not show you are in charge your sons will know that you cannot control them and they will not feel that you can keep them safe and they will be insecure. Because of this they will continue to test you looking for something that will show them where the boundaries are in their quest for security.:scratch Have I lost you yet? Because DD has never cried herself to sleep in her crib (sometimes we have not been able to console her, so she cries in our arms until she wears herself out), and I nurse every five minutes if she needs it as long as she needs and I never put her down because she cries when I do, Mom has warned me that DD is already in charge and I have got to change course so that I can gain all ground that I have lost. She has also instructed me on why, how and when to spank DD. :sick My out there views are perceived as rejection of her.(Because this is not sticky enough). All of this is to say, I think I know where you are coming from.
Dobson is very adversarial in his views on kids (I have read quiet a bit of his stuff before I realized just what is views are). If I were in your place (and I expect to be before DD is two), I would read whatever they give you (if you are not okay with drinking, you will be after a few chapters of dare to discipline or the strong willed child) provided they agree to read whatever book you think will help make your case. (I would avoid anything that is secular). If your mom is like my mother in law, that will end the conversation, as she will not read what we have given her so when I reference it she can't really argue. :D If your mom is like mine, she may or may not read it, but will continue to tell me how I am ruining her and turning her into a brat that no one will like and she will be miserable because she won't have any friends and be to insecure to survive without me.:cry
I will say one thing for Dobson, he does get it right that boys are penalized for being boys and that we as parents do need to make sure that our sons understand that they are okay and they are normal and perfectly acceptable just like they are.

[Synesthesia]

That should go if they are "girly" boys who are a bit sensitive. I hate the idea of toughening a boy up by sending him to some sort of Spartan island or something and he comes back grunting and stabbing things every five seconds and sleeping out in the snow.
Middle ground here!
There's no reason to grab a kid by the neck and inflict pain on him like he's some criminal and you're a cop. It's just a kid that wants to play a little bit longer like any kid, not a thief, a gang member or a serial killer! Dude acts like adults don't sometimes want to stay up late rather than get ready for work.
He just doesn't have enough EMPATHY for children. I hate that sort of thing. Children are not enemies. Your baby isn't in boot camp. If you don't force them to eat something disgusting that even you don't want to eat it doesn't mean they'll turn into, say, Dexter or something. But he makes it sound like if you don't wail on kids with an implement they will come home dressed in black wearing metal t shirts and listening to metal all the time which is what I do even though when I lived with my mother she used a belt on me... I think these folks need to learn that empathy and being gentle with a kid won't turn them evil, that it's what a kid needs.

[mamajane]

The library in town is pretty much a joke. The adult section is small and mainly horror. What's left is children's, mostly lower level. It costs a lot to get a card for the libraries in other towns and right now there's weather to worry about with getting them turned in on time. I really want to go to a library again, but it's a royal pain. :(
Do they have interlibrary loan? I got some of the hard-to-find gentle parenting books that way.

[rjy9343]

But he makes it sound like if you don't wail on kids with an implement they will come home dressed in black wearing metal t shirts and listening to metal all the time which is what I do even though when I lived with my mother she used a belt on me... I think these folks need to learn that empathy and being gentle with a kid won't turn them evil, that it's what a kid needs.
I am the same way. DD can be soothed We will Rock You and most of the Chili Peppers. :clap

[CarEli]

I didn't know much about Dobson and bought his new book, "Bringing Up Girls." It actually wasn't a bad book. In fact, he pushed being attached to your child. It was also very healing for me, who grew up in an abusive home with an alcoholic father. Some of the very things he said about dads and daughters I have told my own husband in regards to our daughter about what to say and what not to say. I don't recall reading anything that made me feel off, but then again, I can't even remember what I did yesterday.

That being said, I haven't read any of his other books and didn't even know that he was so controversial until I found this forum.

[Beauty4Ashes]

One thing that I read from Dobson that was a huge difference from my childhood is that it is okay to ask your parents to clarify or to disagree with them--so NOT okay in my foo. It was viewed as talking back. Dobson is a slippery one and he gets into your head because he sounds rational, at least on the surface. That part that Syn quoted about taking your child by the neck, I read it and it *did* stick with me. It didn't horrify me to the fullest extent until Syn described it for what it is, like a police officer taking a criminal off to jail.

[bliss]

Oh, my gosh, if I had a nickel for every time my mom got me by the neck and got down in my face to talk to me :shiver. The really funny thing is, is that she thought she was being "respectful/gentle" by not swatting me.

[WingsOfTheMorning]

If you don't have access to books right now, I'd recommend reading here ALOT. Read all the stickies in this forum and the gentle discipline forum. Read about other posters' struggles w/ their small children and all the suggestions for how to handle those gently.

Someone else mentioned reading Crystal's site (http://aolff.org/) and I'd also recommend another GCM mama's site, Get Off Your Butt Parenting (http://goybparenting.com/). Both have a lot of articles about dealing w/ specific discipline problems as well as overviews of the basic Grace-Based Discipline philosophy.

I don't know that I would try to convince your parents that your way is best or that Dobson is wrong. That might be too much right now. I think I'd just be sure that you have a strong boundary in place of "no one spanks my child" and anything else you think is necessary. And you may just have to agree to disagree and not discuss discipline w/ them. :hug2 I know it's hard to disagree w/ parents.

[SweetCaroline]

My aunt gave me Bringing up Boys a few years ago. I never read it. He has some weird ideas about homosexuality. iirc?
really? i actually though his view on the origions of homosexuality seemed pretty right on...:shrug3at least going by every gay guy i ever knew and the poor relationship they had w/ their fathers, Dobson talked about how a father will alienate a son who's not macho enough, making him feel unaccepted, and so on..
now as for everything else he says about child rearing..not so much

did that make sense?

[bliss]

DOBSON: I said that on your program one time and both of us got a lot of mail for it. I don’t blame homosexuals for being angry when people say they’ve made a choice to be gay, because they don’t. It usually comes out of very, very early childhood, and this is very controversial, but this is what I believe and many other people believe, that is has to do with an identity crisis that occurs too early to remember it, where a boy is born with an attachment to his mother and she is everything to him for about 18 months, and between 18 months and five years, he needs to detach from her and to reattach to his father.

It’s a very important developmental task, and if his dad is gone or abusive or disinterested or maybe there’s just not a good fit there, what’s he going to do? He remains bonded to his mother and ...

Yuck. It's akin to the "Refrigerator Mother" theories of autism in the 40's and 50's. It's simplistic, incorrect, and in true misogynist form places the blame on mothers for something he feels is deviant.

[SweetCaroline]

hmm. thats does sound familiar..but i think he elaborates more on the idea in the book.
he's def saing its a breakdown in the relationship between father and son

dont get me wrong..im totally not trying to defend dobson here. just saying that i thought he was onto something with that idea

[Synesthesia]

You'd get tons of gay sons after wars if that was the case.
Plus it's outmoded and Freudian.

[Peridot]

You'd get tons of gay sons after wars if that was the case.
.


THAT is a very, VERY good point.

[mwwr]

(if you are not okay with drinking, you will be after a few chapters of dare to discipline or the strong willed child)

:haha

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------

I didn't know much about Dobson and bought his new book, "Bringing Up Girls." It actually wasn't a bad book. In fact, he pushed being attached to your child.

Never heard of this book until now. If he is pushing attachment, :tu. But it seems like everything he has ever taught runs counter to that, if not in theory, in its results.

[camille94037]

My parents are very well meaning. I am 35 now, and when I was growing up, they loved the Dobson materials. My parents used phrases like "Compliant vs non-compliant," "the canyon of inferiority" and other Dobsonisms all the time. I especially remember the special tape about sex. I am still processing the special sorts of native disfunction we had, and how it was tangled with my parents fundamentalism, and their own baggage. Speaking for myself, and of my experiece with of being on the receiving end, back then I took it as the gospel, and even with the gospel. When I look at his magazines now, it just strikes me as so irrelevant, preachy and hollow. I struggled with sexual guilt for years. After I left my parent's house I had to learn how to stand up for, and advoocate for myself--my "compliance" as a child took many years and hard lessons to unlearn. I grew up thinking some nebulous "loving authority" was going to look out for me. (Ha ha) For my daughter, I hope she gets a backbone, and doesn't settle for simply being "compliant."

My husband, my daughter and I currently live with my parents. And it is working out pretty well, but we haven't had any confrontations about my parenting style (dd is only 9mos) fortunately. I am assuming you were raised with dobson, if your parents bring it up, perhaps you can share that it wasn't particularly helpful for you, and now you are looking for a more godly alternative?

[SweetCaroline]

THAT is a very, VERY good point.


whos to say theres not..just sayin':shrug3

[bliss]

:haha

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 PM ----------



Never heard of this book until now. If he is pushing attachment, :tu. But it seems like everything he has ever taught runs counter to that, if not in theory, in its results.

Yeah, it's kind of hard to simultaneously push attachment and warn that over-attaching to your sons will make them gay. :-/

[MiriamRose]

The best theory I've heard leans more toward the primary influence being a disturbance of hormone floods in utero. I think that's more than believable given all the chemicals and such that screw up sex hormones flooding most of the population today. And likely there are other influences throughout early childhood that contribute to and compound the issue.

I feel it's very important for my DS to attach to and identify with his Daddy (it helps that Daddy is a sensitive, artsy type!) but I can in no way accept that my loving attachment to him could harm him in ANY way. He doesn't have to DEtach from me, just become more independent and less in need of my direct action and presence all the time.

[Tengokujin]

Dobson is what I would call a "mainstream adversarial parenting" advocate. What PPs have said about parents vs. child is exactly what he presents. I believe that he, unlike other adversarial authors you may hear us mention, recommends spanking for defiance only.

I think that his viewpoint is probably the most common one heard in Christian circles now.

His other stuff you may or may not find helpful. For instance, Bringing Up Boys and his explanations of homosexuality were discussed a LOT on here because a lot of people took issue with it. It didn't bother me that way and I enjoyed the book.

Same with TV in the bedroom. I think a lot of us might not like that for our children.:heart

I would recommend that you saturate yourself in what is good and true for your relationship with your child before you start trying to sift good from sources that also carry a lot of negative.

[rstump]

I would recommend that you saturate yourself in what is good and true for your relationship with your child before you start trying to sift good from sources that also carry a lot of negative.

Good point. I think many times now that i have read so many good books that when I read one that is a little "off" I don't even see it anymore. Because I just ignore all the things I don't agree with and move on. I know it wasn't like that when I started. I would read a book and refer to it often. Now I glance...take what I like and move on.

I have MANY MANY friend who LOVED Bringing up Girls. They ran out and got it the day it was available. I have seen a positive result in 2 families after the fathers read the book. They both have all girls and they really are FAR more attached now than they were before reading it. That said...I haven't read it. I read "Dare to Discipline" many years ago and hated it so I haven't wasted my time on his books again.

[LovinBeingMommy]

We're already starting to butt heads with discipline (and everything else) and he's only 10 1/2 months old. He's always getting into stuff so everyone is always smacking his hands. Sometimes REALLY hard! They don't get it when I'm just distracting him and saying "no, no." I spent over half an hour last night doing ridiculous things to keep him out of my moms scrapbooking stuff. He thought it was all a game and after a while, completely forgot what he was originally after. If it had been anyone else in my family, he would have had his hand smacked and been dragged away (he's walking). I was doing it, but I really hate it so I've been looking for alternatives. (I've found some great ones here!) Convincing other people to use them with Monkey is the hard part. Yesterday my brother was yelling about grounding Monkey and not letting him play with his books because he was "grounded" from reading!

[ShiriChayim]

First of all at 10mos I just don't let the baby around things he or she can't get into. It's completely inappropriate to expect a 10mos old baby to see something fun to play in and NOT try to play in it. :scratch It's just...odd to think of a baby that way. :-/ Having said that, dh and I have very firm boundaries around who is able to discipline our children...and that is US when we're there. It's not your mom or your brother's job to discipline your son, it is yours. A simple, "We can take care of him" (with a good mom look) as sufficed for us in the past. :yes

[Peridot]

I understand your situation is not the best. But it is your right to say, 'No one may smack his fingers'. He is your child, you are the one who should be making decisions.

They are not going to like the options. At that age, there is no punishment or 'trick' that will teach him to leave stuff alone, unless you teach him to be afraid of exploring new things. They are going to ask you how to get him to leave their stuff alone, and you can say, 'it would be best for us to look around and put away dangerous/fragile/expensive things'.


To them, putting their things away is going to seem unreasonable. I know becasue that's the dobson mindset.... kids should adapt to fit into their parents expectations/environment. :hug2

[WingsOfTheMorning]

I understand your situation is not the best. But it is your right to say, 'No one may smack his fingers'. He is your child, you are the one who should be making decisions.

:yes

[Tengokujin]

Doing scrapbooking with a 10 mo. old just sounds like a nightmare to me.:jawdrop

[LovinBeingMommy]

Doing scrapbooking with a 10 mo. old just sounds like a nightmare to me.:jawdrop

My mom made scrapbooks for all my cousins years ago. She's been adding pages each Christmas since. Last year, she didn't have time and they all kept asking where the pages were so she's doing it in spite of the chaos included.

I understand your situation is not the best. But it is your right to say, 'No one may smack his fingers'. He is your child, you are the one who should be making decisions.

They are not going to like the options. At that age, there is no punishment or 'trick' that will teach him to leave stuff alone, unless you teach him to be afraid of exploring new things. They are going to ask you how to get him to leave their stuff alone, and you can say, 'it would be best for us to look around and put away dangerous/fragile/expensive things'.


To them, putting their things away is going to seem unreasonable. I know becasue that's the dobson mindset.... kids should adapt to fit into their parents expectations/environment. :hug2

My mom is ok with putting things up most of the time, but she doesn't want to go back and forth from the table to her bedroom where she normally stores the paper and stuff. My dad never leaves things out because the cats and dogs are as damaging to electronics as a baby is. He's well trained. ;)
My brother is the worst. I've started just letting some things get destroyed. Leave it out and the baby will chew it. That's life. One time he was sooo made at me because he left his papers from work where Monkey could reach (he insisted they were too high) and Monkey spread them around the house. What really makes me mad is computer cords hanging off the table while plugged in, deodorant with the lid not totally on, scissors... Seriously? Monkey's tall and can pull things off the table if they're within 6-8 inches of the edge. I can't just allow natural consequences to both parties when it's stuff that'll really hurt Monkey. My brother doesn't listen and can get insanely mad if I ask him to move something or not hit Monkey. My parents just think distracting him is spoiling him and teaching bad behavior.
With the way our house is set up, it's hard to keep everything out of Monkey's reach. He's tall for his age and walking/climbing. If it's unsafe, it has to be in a bedroom or on the other side of a baby gate.

I really struggle sometimes with my parents. They don't want me to be grown up. I'm 20. Seriously? They don't want me to drive alone, they don't want me to be home alone with Monkey, they don't want me to just go out without permission, they don't want me to decide how to handle raising Monkey, they even try to control what I wear still. I'm having to take this all one step at a time. We're working on extended breastfeeding and baby wearing at the moment. I weaned really early because my mom worked and my brother weaned at 15 months. My mom thinks that's a good age for Monkey to wean. I want to go much longer. Starting cloth diapers was a major battle with my parents practically placing bets on how long I'd last. I work hard and do my best as a mom. I know my mom was in her 30's when I was born, but does she really think she had that much more going for her than I have? It's like at 20, I'm not ready to care for a child, even with years of practice on baby cousins.

[mwwr]

I really struggle sometimes with my parents. They don't want me to be grown up. I'm 20. Seriously? They don't want me to drive alone, they don't want me to be home alone with Monkey, they don't want me to just go out without permission, they don't want me to decide how to handle raising Monkey, they even try to control what I wear still. I'm having to take this all one step at a time. We're working on extended breastfeeding and baby wearing at the moment. I weaned really early because my mom worked and my brother weaned at 15 months. My mom thinks that's a good age for Monkey to wean. I want to go much longer. Starting cloth diapers was a major battle with my parents practically placing bets on how long I'd last. I work hard and do my best as a mom. I know my mom was in her 30's when I was born, but does she really think she had that much more going for her than I have? It's like at 20, I'm not ready to care for a child, even with years of practice on baby cousins.

Seriously? :wow Most women throughout history had at least one child before that age. One of my ancestors had 7. I know that my mom had a hard time believing that I was grown up at that age, but if you have a child of your own, YOU are the mama now. I know that is hard for her to accept, but *you* must help set that boundary. And we'd love to help you on the journey. Keep up the good work.:tu

[Peridot]

Seriously? :wow Most women throughout history had at least one child before that age. One of my ancestors had 7. I know that my mom had a hard time believing that I was grown up at that age, but if you have a child of your own, YOU are the mama now. I know that is hard for her to accept, but *you* must help set that boundary. And we'd love to help you on the journey. Keep up the good work.:tu


Yup, this!


I do understand that you expect them to not listen or accept your decisions.

In that case, there is really only one way to enforce the boundary, and that is to quietly do what you know is best. If your Mom engages about weaning, bean dip her. (do you know about bean dipping?)

Convo would go like this,

Mom- "I can't beleive you're still nursing!"

YOu- "Believe it. Say, have you seen the price of tomatos lately?" :scratch

Mom- :hunh "I said I think you should wean!"

You- "Seriously I paid xyz for three of them!..... I need to pee, excuse me! " (and then you scram)

It is not going to be easy. :no But you can do it. :yes :heart

[bliss]

I fully hear you on the "not letting you be an adult" thing. My situation when I had my oldest was very similar to yours - I had her briefly before I turned 20, still lived at home, and my parents still very much treated me like a child. I had to be VERY FIRM when saying things about how I was parenting. My mom was not into me co-sleeping, for one thing - so I let her buy me a crib and then stored stuff in it :giggle.
Is your mom a "listen to studies" kind of person? There are studies that show that smacking hands is very damaging to a child's development (askdrsears.com has this:
How tempting it is to slap those daring little hands! Many parents do it without thinking, but consider the consequences. Maria Montessori, one of the earliest opponents of slapping children's hands, believed that children's hands are tools for exploring, an extension of the child's natural curiosity. Slapping them sends a powerful negative message. Sensitive parents we have interviewed all agree that the hands should be off-limits for physical punishment. Research supports this idea. Psychologists studied a group of sixteen fourteen-month-olds playing with their mothers. When one group of toddlers tried to grab a forbidden object, they received a slap on the hand; the other group of toddlers did not receive physical punishment. In follow-up studies of these children seven months later, the punished babies were found to be less skilled at exploring their environment. Better to separate the child from the object or supervise his exploration and leave little hands unhurt.)
Would it be better if you quoted something like that, rather than it being your idea?
:hug for you, I know how hugely frustrating your situation is. It's like, "Um, I'm a mom now, can you at least treat me like an adult?! :-/".

[rjy9343]

Just thought of something. My MIL would constantly quote Dobson to me last time I visited her with DD and it was beginning to annoy me since I gave her the fussy baby by Dr. Sears (I highly recommend that book for parents with high need babies). After about two hours of "Well, Dr. Dobson says..." I lost my patience and said "Oh he's such an idiot!" When she asked me why I would say such a thing, I told her that he promotes a very adversarial relationship between parent and child. That you are always on the look out for a battle to win. Is it really necessary to look for a battle with a toddler, don't they give you one without you having to find it? Is he really so insecure that he must defeat and dominate a small child? While I doubt it tarnished his image for her, it did stop the quotes. I don't recommend being quite so blunt or tactless btw. I don't really care if she comes around or not and live ten hours away from her. Right now, you need to at least live in peace with your family.

[BarefootBetsy]

:hugheart Oh goodness... that sounds like a horribly rough situation for both you and little Monkey.

I think that you need to start expecting them to respect that you are his mother. Sometimes attitude is everything - not a bad or challenging attitude - just a confident one. Set boundaries and expect that they will be respected. Bean dip whenever you need to stop the conversation - or simply state something like, "I am his mother, this is my decision, please do not bring this up again."

The one thing I've been grateful for with my parents is that they've never taken it upon themselves to punish my children. Even when we stayed with them for a while (we would visit from across the country for a month or more at a time before we moved closer to them), there were still boundaries in place. We were the parents.

I'm not sure how best to set that boundary, but it needs to be done. You've gotten some good advice and I hope that some of it will be useful :pray4

[LovinBeingMommy]

My mom smacked his butt yesterday. :( He was having a really bad day (I was alone with him until evening) and was wandering around the house whining. When everyone came home from various places, he lit up and acted normal for a while so nobody believed that he didn't feel good. Everyone was busy and holding him didn't stop the whining anyway so I was just letting him do it for a while. Life has to go on. After a while, she was tired of him whining and pulling at her leg so she smacked his butt once and turned him to walk away. UGH! I heard it rather than really being able to see it so there was no way to prove it when I say not to. I don't know how to handle that. He's not even quite 11 months!

[ShiriChayim]

:hugheart I think it helps me to have a script for those situations, otherwise I just sit there with my mouth gaping open too frustrated to think of something to say.

"Do not hit my son" (pick him up and walk out of the room).

It doesn't matter if you can't "prove" it, you heard her spank him and saw her move him and it wasn't ok.

[LovinBeingMommy]

:hugheart I think it helps me to have a script for those situations, otherwise I just sit there with my mouth gaping open too frustrated to think of something to say.

That's exactly what I did. I called him over to me and held him, but I just didn't know what to do about the actual action!


"Do not hit my son" (pick him up and walk out of the room).

It doesn't matter if you can't "prove" it, you heard her spank him and saw her move him and it wasn't ok.

I'll try that next time. I have a feeling it's going to become a battle. I'm soooo tempted to point out how well spanking worked for her. (My brother and I were real brats.) That would probably just make it worse, though. My point is just that if it didn't work so well for her, why would it work better for me?

[ShiriChayim]

I probably wouldn't get into arguments over what works or doesn't or even how she parented, it's not about how she chose to parent you, this is how you are choosing to parent your son.

I have learned over the years maintaining an attitude of confidence-even if I don't feel it, really helps to command respect from people who otherwise have the view that I am "too young" or something. I think it will likely help you with your mother to state a boundary firmly, "You may not spank, hit, or otherwise physically discipline my son;" but then to go on to not give her the opportunity to do so. You are your son's mother, so you should be the primary disciplinarian (is it hard to do that when you are living with her, I know) :hug

[LovinBeingMommy]

She made it clear from before he was born that she and my dad would be 100% involved in discipline. I want backup so if I'm not able to get to him when he's in danger (i.e. sticking his fingers in the dog's box) someone will stop him, but I want him to know who's in charge. I don't need "mommy can I do __?" "not now" "Gram, Mommy won't let me do __" "It's really not that big a deal, just let him." That's where we're headed right now. :(

What's hard is that he's soooo far ahead physically, but I really doubt his brain is that far ahead. So he gets into things that most kids his age wouldn't, but he doesn't understand the word "no" completely much less the logic of "if you climb on that you'll fall and get hurt." To my mom (and all the other adults in my extended family) you use physical discipline like hand slapping to make your point until they're old enough to be reasoned with. He doesn't know why he's being spanked any more than he knows why I'm saying "no." I spend a lot of time saying "no, not for baby" and moving his hand. I try to redirect, but sometimes, he keeps going back. I just keep moving him. Usually, we end up rolling around playing. The "easier" solution is to slap his hand and put him somewhere else, then repeat until he stops going back. It's not any more effective... Just means I have a crying baby to comfort instead of a laughing baby who has no idea he was doing something he shouldn't, but knows his mommy's playing with him.

[ShiriChayim]

Whoa, NOT her decision :no At all. Is there any possibility of you having a place of your own? There is a HUGE difference between keeping baby from electrocuting himself and spanking an 11month old BABY, who is whining a little. He's a little BABY, baby's fuss, it's life. :-/

[Synesthesia]

No. You are the parent, not her. She has no right to hit him if you don't approve of that. You must assert your right as a parent to discipline as you see fit says me, who is rather meek.

[MiriamRose]

I agree with the others. He is your child, no one else gets to make decisions about discipline. No matter what kind of financial or other support they are providing, it does not make them your baby's parents. If they simply can't respect that, I would seriously consider trying to find some other living arrangements.

[LovinBeingMommy]

I really have no way to leave. I have a part time job, but there aren't any others available to supplement and I alone couldn't live off what I'm making right now, much less me and Monkey. It's a substitute job at a daycare so it's off and on. Some weeks I make $100, some I make nothing. I'm trying to set up boundaries and sometimes it seems like it's getting better, then other times, we're back where we started. Tonight during supper, Monkey was being a total grump and shrieking so I took him out of his highchair and turned him loose to play. My dad immediately scooped him up and started to offer food off his plate (the exact same thing as he was refusing in his highchair). Of course, no response when I said not to give it to him, but my mom backed me up and said if he won't eat it in the highchair, he doesn't need it from a lap, either. My dad set him down and after a little while, he sat in the highchair like he was supposed to and ate his supper.
I just don't get it. Half the time, she agrees, half the time she doesn't? (My dad just generally does his own thing. It was the same when I was little.) She listened this time. Hopefully she'll do it again next time. :) (never hurts to be positive)

[BarefootBetsy]

Assuming that your parents are reasonable people I think it's time to sit down and have a family meeting about appropriate boundaries surrounding the discipline of your son. YOUR SON.

Sure, they can be 100% involved with discipline. That's one of the beauties of GBD - anyone can do it with anyone's child! I have friends who parent the way I do and we're totally comfortable letting each other handle situations between our children because we know that we're on the same page.

BUT, you have to be on the same page. Surely they can understand how confusing it would be for a child to not be disciplined consistently, especially when so many different people are helping parent him. Not to mention, YOU are his parent. Not them. It's their house and of course it's reasonable for them to have expectations of his behavior, but they need to understand what's normal for his age and how to deal with it in a non-punitive manner.

Now... if they aren't reasonable... I've got nothing :( but hopefully they are!

Some people (like me) need things to be spelled out and this is something that can require a complete paradigm shift and they might need to be reminded frequently until it clicks with them. You can't move out right now, but you can try to help them understand how important this is to you and to your son's well-being.

I'd be looking seriously into finding a situation with another single mother where you could work out childcare and share rent... I don't know if that's a possibility at all in your location... but maybe even a nannying job where they don't mind you having your child there and you can live with the family you work for? I don't know... it's a hard situation :hugheart I have a good friend in a similar position - living with her parents, can't find work enough to move out, is basically a single mom with a baby the same age as yours... yeah. Not easy at all.

[LovinBeingMommy]

I know 2 other single moms in town. One of the joys of living in a town of under 500 people. (There are others, but the status quo here is to dump the baby on the grandma's front step and let her deal with it. There's a lady in town caring for great great grandchildren.) :( One of the girls is getting married as soon as she graduates highschool, the other wouldn't be a good choice because I'm so not into what I've seen of her parenting. She understands nothing about children. :( Her baby is one and about the same developmentally as Monkey. She expects him to understand things a 3 year old would one minute, then the next, she's treating him like a newborn. She's just so young... (like 16-17 years old) Even the single moms who're somewhat active in their kids' lives don't really learn how to be moms because they let their parents take care of them. I was thrilled when I met S because, in spite of being 18 and in high school, she's working hard to care for her dd herself. The school has a daycare set up for the teachers and single parents and they actually work with her to let her breastfeed. :) I was really surprised, but thrilled that they actually call her from class to feed her baby. Usually, she's missing an elective or something because of dd's schedule.
ETA: I tried to talk to my mom last night. It went in circles. "I never said you should spank him." "Yes, you did. You said there are situations when a child must be spanked." "Yeah, but it's true! If he goes in the street, would you rather spank him or let him get hit by a car?" Still not listening. :( We had it out over co-sleeping again, too. He's "too old" to sleep with me. It's "normal" for him to sleep alone. I tried to point out that he doesn't understand why suddenly he's being dumped into his crib (by her) when he's used to sleeping with me and she said "it's not about understanding, it's about adjusting so it's normal." He ended up sleeping with me as always, but she wasn't thrilled. Then, he had me up most of the night because something wasn't right. I want him in my bed because then I'm more aware when something's off during the night. I wish I could express that somehow, but just saying I know if he's ok or not doesn't get through. "If you can't hear him well enough to know he's fine, put a monitor in my room too!" That's not what I meant. He gets restless, screams before he even opens his eyes, whimpers in his sleep. I can't see him through a monitor to know those things.

[Synesthesia]

People use the word normal too much without knowing that it doesn't exist. What's it to her if he sleeps with you anyway? I do not understand that. And there's got to be choices besides spank or having a child get hit by a car... I hope your situation gets better because if I was in your place, meek me would roar at my intimidating mother who thinks if you don't hit children they will turn out bad.

[LovinBeingMommy]

I'm doing my absolute best not to roar. Although I have wanted to.
She's afraid he'll get out of bed without waking me up. (I've slept with my cat in my arms for 12 years before Monkey and always woke up when he tried to leave. Why would this be different?) She's also concerned I'll roll over on him and suffocate him. (The story of King Solomon with the two mothers sticks with her too well....) Again, I slept with a cat for 12 years and he's still alive and healthy. In fact, he's glaring at me now because he can't share my lap with the computer...

She says she's fine with time out until it "doesn't work." She also said that if I visited all you guys' homes, I'd find that they're zoos full of spoiled brats. :( From what I've read, your kids are all better than average.

[Peridot]

for one thing, crib death is not something well studied in Bible Times.


:hug for you. You will not- in my humble experience, be able to reason with her on this. She decided a long time ago where she stodd in parenting, and now that it is behind her she can be as resolute as she wishes. It is not your job to negotiate or reach an agreement with her. Putting yourself in a position of negotiation means SHE will expect to persuade YOU.


That is why we are telling you about boundaries. a boundary is just that- "You end here. YOur opinion mattetrs- but only this far."

one time someone said, 'Your rights begin where mine end.' I like that- its very clear. I told my DH- everyone in this family has the right to feel safe. Everyone has a right to basic needs met.

Your mother has taken a position of authority which was not hers to take. This does not mean she is bad! :no She does not klnow she has tresspassed on your boundaries because you don't have signs posted. (erm- in a manner of speaking)

Boundaries are making a statement, and then taking action.

[ReedleBeetle]

This is what boundaries are going to need to look like:

"Mom, Monkey is *my* son and you are *not* to spank him again." "I will spank him if he is in danger and..." "No. You are NOT to spank him again. He is my son. (And if you need to) It is assault to spank someone's child, especially when they have told you not to."

I really, really think you need to look into getting your own place. Don't let anyone tell you that there isn't help out there. You will have to go through the welfare dept, but there is ALL kinds of help to get you out of your parents house and on your own. From there, you can build your way off of assistance. It is very possibly the only way you are going to be able to enforce what you want...that and NEVER leaving him with your family...not even to pee. :hug2

[LovinBeingMommy]

I'm not eligible for welfare unless I get child support and I can't do that without Monkey's dad trying to get custody. He's not safe to have around kids, but I don't have solid proof so I can't risk it. Right now, he's not pushing for anything, but if he's paying, he will. :( Long, long story... (I'm way too tired to get into it and not in a public forum.)

[ReedleBeetle]

:hugheart I understand that sometimes things are complicated. I guess you have to decide if having you be his parent (as opposed to your parents trying to fill that role) and the one making decisions is worth the push you are going to need to make and if they still won't respect your wishes, figure out how you are going to enforce that. I will say that if he has had nothing to do with your son for this long, there is a good chance that they wouldn't give him more than supervised visitation, at least for a while. No promises though. Can you work more? It sounds like a set up where you can take your son? Maybe?

[LovinBeingMommy]

I haven't asked if I could bring him or not because my mom watches him. I work pretty much any time they need a sub. I didn't go in twice when Monkey was really sick. I'm the first sub they call so it's just that I'm not need often enough. :(
My dad has a friend who's a lawyer and from what he's said, it hasn't been long enough. The guy sent money a couple times because someone told him that would mean I had to change Monkey's last name to his and include him on the birth certificate. Not true. The problem, is money=interest. The guy's getting married next summer so he's busy atm. I hope the new girl will produce a child quickly. Once he has his own, maybe Monkey will be less appealing. I'm trying not to rock the boat until then. My dad's friend said the longer between the birth and a court battle the better. Basically, where I live, they just have a default case that they apply to all custody situations without really paying attention to facts unless you can prove the guy has no real interest or is dangerous. Since he's not bugging me, I don't want to give him reason to be upset (because, man, does he have a temper!).

[ReedleBeetle]

My sis was in a similar situation when she had her oldest, so I do understand. One thing though is that her and my parents agreed on discipline...good in her situation, I just wish they didn't agree on the type of discipline they agree on. :(

[bolt.]

A lot of people in a situation like yours underestimate the value of just being blunt or even pushy. Your parents won't like you for being pushy, but it is very likely to be a solution that works for you and Monkey.

I'll do a few examples for you:

"She's afraid he'll get out of bed without waking me up." --> "I'm sorry you are feeling anxious about my choice for how we are sleeping. Goodnight."

"She's also concerned I'll roll over on him and suffocate him." --> "I'm sorry you are feeling anxious about my choice for how we are sleeping. Goodnight."

"She says she's fine with time out until it 'doesn't work.' " --> "I'm happy to hear that you will feel good about my parenting choices at least some of the time. I hope you won't be too hurt when it comes up that I am choosing something you wouldn't choose."

"She also said that if I visited all you guys' homes, I'd find that they're zoos full of spoiled brats." --> "I'm not sure why you want to insult my internet aquaintences or their children. I wish you wouldn't."

"He's always getting into stuff so everyone is always smacking his hands. Sometimes REALLY hard!" -and- "My mom smacked his butt yesterday." --> "Stop that right now, and never slap any part of my child again. No one is allowed to hit my child. I'm his mother, and that is my rule." (You don't need to prove anything. If she claims she did not, just say, "Fine, but if you are ever tempted, remember my rule."

("I have a feeling it's going to become a battle. I'm soooo tempted to point out how well spanking worked for her. (My brother and I were real brats.) That would probably just make it worse, though. My point is just that if it didn't work so well for her, why would it work better for me? " <-- That's a bad idea. Stick to the main point -- you have laid down the law. Your reasons don't matter, and her agreement doesn't matter -- all that matters is that she will follow the rule.)

"Yesterday my brother was yelling about grounding Monkey and not letting him play with his books because he was "grounded" from reading!" --> "Stop that right now, and never yell at my child again. You do not have the right to ground him, and no one is allowed to be yelling and angry at him that way. I'm his mother, and that is my rule."

"My parents just think distracting him is spoiling him and teaching bad behavior." --> "I'm sorry you feel that way. I've researched and decided that this is the way I am going to raise him and I consider it appropreate disciplne for his age."

"They don't want me to drive alone" --> If you own a vehicle, drive where you like. Say nothing but, "I'm sorry to hear that; bye!" If you do not own a vehicle, then the person you want to borrow from gets to set the rules for their property. That's life.

"they don't want me to be home alone with Monkey" --> They can decide to be home if they want to be... but they don't decide where you or Monkey is.

"they don't want me to just go out without permission" --> You are free to go where you like (as long as you don't expect babysitting while you are gone). Again, say nothing but, "I'm sorry to hear that; bye!"

"they don't want me to decide how to handle raising Monkey" --> You make your decisions about Monkey. You set limits on how others may treat him, and you do 99.3 percent of all the parenting work yourself. If they don't "want" you to do that, I don't think that them not wanting it can actually stop you from doing it.

"they even try to control what I wear still" --> Wear what you want. If they have something to say, you can choose, "I'm sorry to hear that." -or- "That's interesting."

"weaned at 15 months. My mom thinks that's a good age for Monkey to wean. I want to go much longer." --> Ummm... those breasts... they belong to you, not her. She can talk about weaning, but she can't actually do anything about it. It's your decision. You could say, "Thanks for your perspective Mom, but I've thought this through and my decision right now is to continue until I feel he is ready to stop."

"Starting cloth diapers was a major battle with my parents practically placing bets on how long I'd last." --> It's OK for them to have their own thoughts (and bets) about your choices. The fact remains that these are your choices. You don't have to battle them, you just have to be "sorry to hear that" while you do what you think is best.

"She made it clear from before he was born that she and my dad would be 100% involved in discipline." --> They can be 'involved' as long as they do not work against you or disregard your rules. They don't get to pick their own methods -- you decide that. Then they decide whether to be 'involved' or not. If you don't lay that out now, you are right about 'where you are headed'.

"My dad immediately scooped him up and started to offer food off his plate (the exact same thing as he was refusing in his highchair). Of course, no response when I said not to give it to him," --> This is an example of you speaking when you should be moving. It would have been most effective simply to walk over, pick Monkey out of Grandpa's lap, and say something bland like, "It doesn't work that way."

"I just don't get it. Half the time, she agrees, half the time she doesn't?... She listened this time." --> That's obvious. You are two different women. Sometimes you will have the same idea agreeing and sometimes you will hold different ideas. She didn't "listen" -- she just happened to hold the same opinion as you on the highchair issue. What needs to be established is who's ideas are going to govern Monkey's raising. Hers? Or yours?

"I tried to talk to my mom last night. It went in circles. "I never said you should spank him." "Yes, you did. You said there are situations when a child must be spanked." "Yeah, but it's true! If he goes in the street, would you rather spank him or let him get hit by a car?" " --> "Mom, I hear you, I just don't agree with you, and I don't appreciate the way you are trying to pressure me into making the choices you are most comfortable with. I don't think spanking is the only way to prevent kids from going into the street. I plan to try other ways to keep Monkey safe. I'd like you to support me as I try those ways, but I don't actually need you to approve of my discipline decisions. What I do need from you is your promise that you will never hit any part of my son, and that you will not stand by while anyone else does either. Someday I might change my mind. If I do, I'll let you know... I also know that a spank might just come naturally to your hand one day. If you make a mistake or two I will forgive you, but I will not tollerate you chooising spanking against my rule."

"We had it out over co-sleeping again, too. He's "too old" to sleep with me. It's "normal" for him to sleep alone." --> "I hear your thoughts, but I don't agree. Goodnight."

" I tried to point out that he doesn't understand why suddenly he's being dumped into his crib (by her) when he's used to sleeping with me and she said "it's not about understanding, it's about adjusting so it's normal." He ended up sleeping with me as always, but she wasn't thrilled. " --> You don't have to 'point out' anything to her... other than the plain fact that you get to choose where your child sleeps, whether she is 'thrilled' or not. It doesn;t matter why you want to do something -- it just matters that you have decided and she gets no say. (I mean she has no say in the actual decision, of course she can voice her opinion just conversationally.)

---

However, this --> "I've started just letting some things get destroyed. Leave it out and the baby will chew it. That's life." -- is not an appropreate way to share house-space with someone else. I suggest you keep a box or basket really high (like top of the fridge) nab anything that others might value, and just toss it in there before it gets destroyed. It's not hard, and it will take a lot of the tension out of your living arrangement.

---

In general, you should be 'jumping the gun' a lot. You should be with him almost all the time, looking out for possible problems and stepping in to prevent them. No one should need to discipline him for you very often, because you should be right there doing it yourself, your own way, without having to talk anyone into it.

You should be playing with him and keeping him amused so that exploring and getting into things is not the only way he has to relieve his boredom. Consider it distracton before a mistake, rather than after. Being outside for an hour or more each day (walking and playing, not just in a stroller) will probably completely transform him. That's a plan that's worth a shot.

You should also be teaching him, as much as possible at his age. That's mostly just learning the vocabulary for commands/instructions, and learning what things are made out of (so that you can later teach him what's allowed for different types of things).

If you want to, you might be able to make a start on some of the easier rules like not smashing stuff, not hitting, not touching certian objects or not going in certain rooms. <-- You do that by constant supervision, and re-drection using key words, followed by distraction.

[bliss]

bolt. YOU ROCK!!! What wonderful scripts, and I absolutely second the idea that blunt and to-the-point is the order of the day.

[LovinBeingMommy]

Thanks for the advice! I shall try it! :)

The times someone else disciplines him are the times when they're actively interacting with him. My dad and brother both come home from work ready for some Monkey time. It's nice to get the break, but half the time they're doing something I don't like. (I thought it was bad enough trying to train a puppy with their "help.")

Monkey loves to "help" my mom with certain tasks. Sometimes we're having a whiny day (usually he's sick) and he whines through his helping, but it's not to be bad. It just gets on everyone's nerves and people snap.

I move my parents' stuff out of reach, but when my brother comes home to find something moved, he goes nuts. (We're pretty sure he's high-functioning autistic and change really screws him up.) He has to learn to either allow me to put things somewhere safe or put them in his room himself.

Technically, my parents own my van. In other words, on the paperwork, it has their names, in every other way, it's mine. I'm the only one who drives it unless my mom's van is broken and she absolutely has to go somewhere. I put gas in it. They assume, though, since their names are on the registration, they can control when it goes somewhere. For a very long time, my brother and I didn't have house keys. Not because our parents didn't want us to, but because every time we got a copy made, it didn't work in the door. We finally have keys, so it's much easier to just leave. I understand them wanting to know when I plan to be home and whatnot, I mean, I still live in the same house. I like to know when they plan to be home, too, so that seems fair enough.

The hard thing is the guilt trips. I always do as I please with Monkey because I know I'm doing what I think is best. 90% of the time they don't agree and it's made very clear. My dad outright ignores me. "Don't give Monkey ____, he's not ready for it." "But he wants it." I end up pulling stuff out of his mouth. When I co-sleep, use distraction or take Monkey and go somewhere my mom doesn't want me to, she just talks about what a bad idea it is for the time leading up to, during and after. I took Monkey along when I was invited to a horse thing with a friend (the friend was perfectly happy to have Monkey along) and for the days leading up to it my mom kept trying to talk me out of it, telling me how bored he'd be. He was in heaven! This kid LOVES horses. She still kept checking on us (via text). When I go somewhere with Monkey that she isn't going (whether by her choice or because she's not invited) she talks about how she always misses stuff. She's involved in so much! She sees everything he learns and experiences at home. So what if he went somewhere without her? She's his grandmother. She sees a lot more of him than my two grandmothers combined saw of me at his age.

Side note-- With the guys in this house, I've always been ignored. We have a horribly behaved corgi. He only understands, like, two commands. He's OCD about lights in all forms (the crazy things chases lasers, camera flashes, flash lights, reflections!) because, in spite of warnings, my dad played with him with a laser. He plays WAY too rough because while I was saying "don't let him bite you, he'll assume it's always ok" my dad and brother were saying "he knows he can only do it when he's playing--OW! Stupid dog! DON'T BITE SO HARD!" Seriously? I worked my butt off trying to train him, but it's all been undoing what other people taught him. It took me a month to train someone else's dog, seeing him for a couple hours every couple days. Why? Because she let me be the trainer.
They do the same thing with Monkey. I get so tired of physically removing him because then they get insanely mad at me. They don't generally listen to my mom either. I live in a completely male-dominated house.

[bolt.]

What happens if you say, "I don't want to talk about this/that." -- during the times your mom is trying to shift your opinion or make you feel guilty?

[BarefootBetsy]

I don't think you're being direct enough with them.


"I never said you should spank him." "Yes, you did. You said there are situations when a child must be spanked." "Yeah, but it's true! If he goes in the street, would you rather spank him or let him get hit by a car?" Still not listening.

She spanked your son. Doesn't matter what she said or didn't say or what she claims she said or didn't say in the past. She HAS spanked your son. You need to tell her, in no uncertain terms, that this is not acceptable and should not ever EVER happen again.


We had it out over co-sleeping again, too. He's "too old" to sleep with me. It's "normal" for him to sleep alone. I tried to point out that he doesn't understand why suddenly he's being dumped into his crib (by her) when he's used to sleeping with me and she said "it's not about understanding, it's about adjusting so it's normal."

No. It's not about understanding at all and it's not about normal either. It's about the fact that he is YOUR SON and it is YOUR DECISION about where he sleeps. End of discussion. She doesn't need to understand and she doesn't need to like it. He's not her child. Period.

My grandmother doesn't like the fact that I'm planning to homeschool. She told me so, point blank. I told her right back that she doesn't need to like it. I told her nicely, but firmly. I didn't use any snark - it's simply the truth. She isn't responsible for educating my children. She doesn't like the fact that I tandem-nurse either. Doesn't matter. Even if I lived with her, it still wouldn't be her decision.

I do understand that because of your living situation you're going to have to deal with this sort of thing on a regular basis and that it's not going to be resolved as easily as mine was, but the principle is the SAME. You are the mother. He is your child. These things are NOT her decision. She can discipline him in the ways that YOU see fit and spanking is not one of those ways.

Do not engage her past that and don't explain your reasoning unless she is actually interested in learning. Justifications are really not something you have to give her. Your son. Your decisions. She made the decisions with her children and now she needs to let you make the decisions with yours!

*is all riled up now on your behalf* :shifty :heart

---------- Post added at 09:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 PM ----------

And honestly... if you possibly can, learn to tune your parents out. Don't listen to what they say. You know what's best for your son and your parents are probably feeling threatened by the fact that you're doing things completely differently than they are. The truth they are speaking is not your truth, it's theirs.

And really, you don't have to justify what you do to them. Until they stop being defensive and threatened by your parenting and start treating you like an adult, there's really no point, IMO.

[mamajane]

I wonder if educating your mom might work better than (or in conjunction with) "you may not..."s. As you learn more and share with her what you learn, from a non-confrontational place she might be interested. Someone just recently shared on here a good article/blog post that logically discussed why the "if they run in the street" spanking argument doesn't make sense. Hopefully someone can point you to it.
Regarding cosleeping, some perspective about what has been "normal" throughout history might help her understand. I did a brief search of "cosleeping through history" and got this brief but informative article:
http://www.suite101.com/content/psychological-benefits-of-cosleeping-a71446

I think the best thing to do is to keep modeling for them other ways of dealing with your baby's behavior. You can't control what they do when you're not there (unless they're willing to honor your requests) so modeling gentler responses, in a non-confrontational way, will give them new things to do "in the moment" when you're not there. You could also make a list of appropriate responses to help give them get out of the slapping hand habit.
ETA-
here's the thread I was thinking of re spanking and safety issues. Maybe I was just remembering the posts in the thread rather than a separate article:
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/community/showthread.php?t=376262&highlight=spanking+safety

[BarefootBetsy]

Peridot wrote an article about the dangerous situations argument:

http://greenegem.wordpress.com/2010/11/11/the-danger-dilemma/

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

Sounds like discussion is useless. Time for you to say,

"I am the parent. I make the parenting decisions. You don't have to agree, but you do have to accept them."

[LovinBeingMommy]

I've pretty much done things how I want even when she complains. Our problem was with the spanking, but she seems to be getting it now. Today my brother spanked Monkey when he wasn't even doing anything wrong. Just fussing because he was getting tired. My mom and I both got on him at the same time. Then, my brother insisted it was in fun and proceeded to slap my mom's leg to demonstrate how gentle it was. She jumped, so I'm gonna say it wasn't gentle and I really don't think it was to be funny. Den if it was, it wasn't appropriate at all.

[Synesthesia]

urg!!! That would drive me up a TREE!

[bliss]

I am :jawdrop and :hunh that your BROTHER is even spanking your son. This baby does NOT belong to the whole family, he belongs to YOU and it sounds like the only thing that is going to get across is near-rude bluntness.

NO ONE IN THIS FAMILY/HOME MAY SPANK/SLAP/HIT MY CHILD IN ANGER, 'DISCIPLINE', OR 'FUN'. THIS IS NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.

And then, don't make it a discussion. If it happens again, pick up your son, and as you leave the room with him, say, "You will not hit my child".

[LovinBeingMommy]

That's pretty much what happened this time except there were two of us. Monkey walked over to me so he didn't have to be removed. I just picked him up and told my brother that is wasn't funny and he'd better not do it again. I have to wonder if it's happened before because my brother takes Monkey to his room to play sometimes. (he collects some types of toys like Mr. Potato Head and lets Monkey play with them, but doesn't bring them to the living room because "the dogs will eat them.)

[FlyingBlueKiwi]

...because my brother takes Monkey to his room to play sometimes. (he collects some types of toys like Mr. Potato Head and lets Monkey play with them, but doesn't bring them to the living room because "the dogs will eat them.)

this sentence is setting of my 'mommy radar'

[LovinBeingMommy]

It's very true that the dogs will chew on his stuff. He also has the only working tv in his room. His "room" is actually a section of the basement that we can all see. My dad's home pretty much any time my brother is and is basically in the same room, just not the part my brother's stuff is in. I've gone down there enough times to know they're fine. He just doesn't understand what's ok discipline-wise because we were both spanked and grounded at different times. (We also had a run-in today over whether an 11 month old should be watching Doctor Who?)

[bolt.]

You seem to 'discuss' a lot of things that don't need to be discussed.

Your brother does not need to be convinced that "Dr Who" is not appropreate for your child. He does not need to agree that "Dr Who" is not appropreate for your child.

He simply needs to be told that if he wants to watch TV, he needs to send your son to you, or call you to come and get him -- not keep him in the same room... unless your brother likes to watch 'in the night garden' or 'backyardigans' (etc). Tell him, "My son is not allowed to watch any TV that is not made for kids. I will decide what kids shows are OK. I am his mother, and that is my rule about TV."

Whatever he has to say as far as what his thoughts about kids and TV are -- you can listen, then you can say, "So what? You have your ideas about kids, and I have my ideas about kids -- but this kid is mine, and not yours, so you will follow my rules. If you ever have a kid, I will follow your rules, even if I think they are stupid. So if you think I make stupid rules, I don't care, as long as you follow them. Get it?"

I'm glad that your mother is diciplining her son when he hits toddlers. That's a good thing. But I don't think you should trust your brother to play with Monkey alone for more than 10 or 15 minutes. Why don't you play with them too?

[ShiriChayim]

You seem to 'discuss' a lot of things that don't need to be discussed.


THIS!!!! :yes:yes:yes You don't need to justify yourself.

"DB, when you have a son you can sit up all night watching Dr Who videos with him if that is your choice. You may not do so with mine"

and when he says, "BUT..." you say, "No. End. Of. Story."

[LovinBeingMommy]

You seem to 'discuss' a lot of things that don't need to be discussed.

Your brother does not need to be convinced that "Dr Who" is not appropreate for your child. He does not need to agree that "Dr Who" is not appropreate for your child.

He simply needs to be told that if he wants to watch TV, he needs to send your son to you, or call you to come and get him -- not keep him in the same room... unless your brother likes to watch 'in the night garden' or 'backyardigans' (etc). Tell him, "My son is not allowed to watch any TV that is not made for kids. I will decide what kids shows are OK. I am his mother, and that is my rule about TV."

Whatever he has to say as far as what his thoughts about kids and TV are -- you can listen, then you can say, "So what? You have your ideas about kids, and I have my ideas about kids -- but this kid is mine, and not yours, so you will follow my rules. If you ever have a kid, I will follow your rules, even if I think they are stupid. So if you think I make stupid rules, I don't care, as long as you follow them. Get it?"

I'm glad that your mother is diciplining her son when he hits toddlers. That's a good thing. But I don't think you should trust your brother to play with Monkey alone for more than 10 or 15 minutes. Why don't you play with them too?

The Dr. Who thing was more, "Monkey doesn't need to see stuff like that, it'll upset him." "I don't let him see the scary parts!" "Monkey should be watching stuff like Veggie Tales." "You're annoying. Go away" and he stomps out. My mom then said that for now it's "not a big deal" because Monkey "can't understand what he's seeing yet anyway." It IS a big deal! He DOES get distressed when someone's upset on the screen or something bad happens!

Long story short, my brother can't stand me and his mood turns foul after 5 minutes trying to do something with me. If I try to say (very nicely) that he shouldn't do something, he blows up because I'm being "bossy." What's worse? My mom agrees with him! Monkey was thrilled to unwrap presents on Christmas, but wasn't doing it fast enough for my brother so he started doing it for him. I asked him to stop very sweetly, he exploded and left the room and my mom lectured ME about how it was unnecessary to say anything and I should have just let him help.

[ReedleBeetle]

How old is your brother? :popcorn

[bliss]

Oh mama, you need out of there. :hugheart When I moved out with my dd, it was to the least swank apartments in town :giggle. I hated my job and prayed every minute that our circumstances would improve. But I wasn't living in my moms basement any more, with her coming down the stairs every ten minutes all night asking me why I didn't 'make the babay stop crying' :rolleyes. Gee, I don't know mom, I kind of like sitting up with her all night while she screams, I never thought about trying to get her to STOP! :rolleyes2
:hug

[Peridot]

Can I also ask if your brother is getting any help for dealing with his own issues?

It seems to me like he is running things in many ways. :think

[rjy9343]

Sorry to jump on you here, but you need to GET OUT NOW !!! Okay, no more yelling. Your family sounds like mine. DH and I moved ten hours away from them because we both knew we would do it wrong. I know it is easier said than done. I understand about you son father, I really do. My ex was like that, violent and abusive, but good luck proving it. You should qualify for student loans, I know the debt seems to like a bad idea, but you need skills to support yourself and you son so you might as well get them away from home. Look into other states assistance programs (I don't think the requirements are the same as your state's in FL, SC or GA), I know it is scary to be that far away (I am still scared out of my mind with DD), but that environment is toxic to you both. Many schools have earn while you learn programs as well, so don't forget them. And while you are looking at other states, look into AP groups that are in the area so that you can have a support system in place. In the mean time, reach out to you LLL group, many of those women will be able to support you and may know of ways out that are not so intimidating. Your brother sounds an awful lot like one of mine and I can't imagine trying to raise a child with him in the house. I really think leaving Monkey with him without you is a bad idea, I get that he can't be civil to you, mine is incapable of being remotely civil for more than fifteen minutes. (And that was before he joined the Marines). But I fear that he is not stable enough to be with a baby without supervision. I don't mean to be unkind about your brother, but his expectations are not reasonable for your son and neither is his idea of what is scary. While we are on the subject, that your son does not know what is going on is all the more reason he needs to be shielded, because he is unable to process it or understand it he is frightened by it. It sounds like your instincts are on target to me and that you are an excellent mother. You are just in a bad situation that is only going to get worse. This is how it looks to me, you are in another woman's house, trying to make an entirely different set of rules. It is not going over well because to them you do not have the moral authority to do that. As long as you are in your parents home, you go by their rules, you are not going to change that perspective. You need to get out so that you have more than your own space, you have your home. You can do it.

[ShiriChayim]

I wanted to come back and add that is is your job to be bossy regarding your son. That's actually a very good trait. And I might remind your mother that this is a good trait in you, it means you are in fact a GOOD MOTHER to your son. It should by all means, be ENCOURAGED!!!! :rockon

[bolt.]

my brother can't stand me and his mood turns foul after 5 minutes trying to do something with me. If I try to say (very nicely) that he shouldn't do something, he blows up because I'm being "bossy."
Stop trying to be so nice!

By being nice you are trying to make him agree with you -- so you give him something to argue with, and then you get into an argument. He doesn't have to agree with you. He has to follow your rules -- so just tell him what they are and be firm and straight to-the-point.

You are being "bossy" -- because in parenting situations, you are the boss. You are the boss of Monkey and everything Monkey does, because you gave birth to Monkey and your brother had nothing to do with it.

You don't need to say, 'what's not good and why.' -- then hope the other person agrees. You need to say 'what's not allowed and that's the way it is.' Then you need to use your hands to pick Monkey up and enforce your rules.

Monkey was thrilled to unwrap presents on Christmas, but wasn't doing it fast enough for my brother so he started doing it for him. I asked him to stop very sweetly, he exploded and left the room and my mom lectured ME about how it was unnecessary to say anything and I should have just let him help.
The sweetness made your request seem optional. Just because your brother has a problem with his temper does not mean you have to let him have his way.

In this situation you could say to your mom, "I understand that you think it was unnessisary to ask Bro to stop. However, I decided to step in to make it more fun for Monkey. Monkey is very important to me. I think I made the right decision, but I am sorry that Bro takes things like that so hard. Maybe he will get used to it."

[LovinBeingMommy]

The thing that's hard to express here is just how bad my brother's temper is. Things get broken when he's mad (even if it's over something stupid like whether Monkey can watch something). I'm doing all I can to keep that anger from turning toward Monkey. I've been in the line of fire enough times myself. No child deserves that. My brother isn't quite right mentally. We don't know what's off, we just know it is. He's really hard to deal with sometimes and blows at the drop of a hat. He went balistic a couple days ago because my dad was going to do something, then was busy with other things and forgot. My dad has two jobs. He has to do the stuff for them before the stuff for fun if we wanna have food on our table. My brother has trouble with that. "He never does anything for me!" (As my dad sits at my brother's computer installing a new program.)
A lot of time and energy at my house goes into keeping things fairly level. Things are worse now because my uncle's in the hospital and my cousins are coming to stay with us for a while.

[BarefootBetsy]

Ah. How old is your brother, again? I think I missed it...

My brother is 16 and I wouldn't trust him to watch my children for long at all even though he's perfectly normal and doesn't have anger issues. He's a nice kid and all, he loves his nieces, I know that he would never spank them even in "fun," but he simply doesn't understand how to interact with or talk to them in an age-appropriate manner. He's never had any experience babysitting either. My sister, who is two years older than he is, I would trust with the two older girls for a couple hours, but yeah, not my brother.

And honestly, my brother has no desire to watch them by himself either. I'd think it was a little odd if he did (unless he was motivated by babysitting money, of course :giggle).

You're working, correct? Can you save up some money? I've moved before with almost no money to my name except what I'd saved up to move with. I did have the support of a husband who was moving with me, but we were seriously dirt poor. Would you be comfortable moving out of your town? Out of your state? Somewhere you could have a chance to be an adult, be treated like an adult, and make your own decisions without your family watching over your shoulder the whole time?

It's a daunting possibility, especially if you've lived in the same town your whole life, but it can be such a wonderful thing! It'd be something to at least consider :heart I don't think that things can get much better while you're still living with your parents... especially since there will soon be even more people in the mix :-/

[Synesthesia]

There comes a time in every mother's life when she must become a she-bear.
I do wish I had loot so I can help you move to a better situation as this just sounds like a rather toxic environment. I think I would have grown claws and fangs by now were I you.

[ReedleBeetle]

If your brother's anger makes it so your family cannot carry on normally, then it needs to be addressed by professionals. I know. We are living with a child with that level of anger and we are getting it addressed and treated. If your parents are choosing to allow his anger to take over the family and not seek help, then for you and Monkey's safety and sanity, you need to get out of there. And I would not allow him to watch Monkey for you to even pee. What is going to happen if Monkey slaps him in the face or breaks something? monkey is little and both are completely feasible possibilities. What happens if he just gets really mad at something you say? You HAVE to be able to parent your child, and 2 things are happening....they are sucking that away from you...and you are letting them. That needs to change now, or it will be likely to never get better. The longer it is left, the harder to change it.

[rjy9343]

I really do get the anger bit about your brother. My brother needs help, but I don't know if he will get it any time soon or ever. (I spend a lot of time praying for my niece). Your son is your priority. Yes you are bossy about him, you need to be. You are right to do all you can to keep Monkey out of the line of fire, but it will take it out of you (not that you have not already figured that out). My brother likes kids, but none of us leave our kids with him because it is not safe. If there is no one else around to watch DD, she goes with me. I have been know to go to a gas station to pee so I could take her with me without conflict. I understand you are scared, you're only 20 and have never been on your own and are afraid of the scene that will ensue. I really do get that. But I also know what a difference it makes when you are not on edge. In my infinite wisdom, I took my very high strung baby to stay with my brother so he could under go surgery and it was a night mare. He was only there about three days out of two weeks and when I got back, DH and I had to tip toe and whisper around DD for two months. Your boy may be a bit more easy going than my girl, but after a few months, I imagine you will be amazed at the difference you see in your son. If you do not qualify for WIC and the like right now, look into student loans, grants and such. You will not live well in the material sense, but you will live much better in the ways that matter. And seriously look into other states programs. If they are easier to get, consider moving to one of them in a bigger city with public transit and the like. I moved from a small town in a very rural area where you had to have a car to get by, but once we moved to Miami, we discovered we can get by with only one car and maybe go carless. If you are able to go to a community college near a major university, you would have a lot of the amenities a larger city offers, but smaller bills because the tuition is lower, and housing is typically cheaper for students. Campus housing if available would probably be out of the question with Monkey, but off campus will typically be fairly cheap. After you have been in state for a while (some places are as low as six months) you will qualify for all kinds of aid. I know it is a humbling process, but it is temporary and in place for people in your situation.

[LovinBeingMommy]

If I ask for any money beyond the medicaid, the state will go after the dad for child support. Not only will that start a whole big mess, I won't see a penny of it because they'll keep it in exchange for state aid. I can get pell grants and whatnot and am going to college at a community college. The nearest state college is close to two hours away. I'm lucky to make $20 a month because of how it's set up. I need to take a few classes then I'll be able to be a "real" substitute teacher and will start getting more work. I just have to finish the classes and they're only offered during certain semesters so I'm taking them as they're available.

We want my brother to get help, but he's bigger than all of us and if he says he's not going somewhere, there's no moving him. He works really weird, long shifts so he's mostly home when Monkey's asleep, so it's not usually a huge issue with him. He's off some holidays, though. That's when there's an issue. I think his temper has gotten worse since he started his job. He's started cussing endlessly, just because. He's been informed that if the cussing continues, he will be moving out. I hope that happens! I love my brother, but my parents would be less stressed and there's be no explosions so life would be better. If my mom weren't always trying to keep from having a problem with him, I think she'd handle my stuff better. She's just so tense all the time. Normally, she's not one to argue or push.

[rjy9343]

:hug

[bolt.]

Are you saying that in your opinion it is better to live with your parent's control/dicipline and your brother's potentially violent rage episodes, than it would be to live on state aid with your baby's father possibly having some vistiation privilidges?

Would you say that your brother or your ex is the more dangerous person?

In any case, I don't think I would let my child within arm's reach of a person that is capable of hurting him if he became enraged. You can do that without being obvious, just calling your son to come and play with you, or have a snack or something if he's in danger.

I was also thinking, if you live on your own, on state aid, and something goes wrong (like an abusive event) between your ex and Monkey, then the courts will put a stop to the visitation... but if something goes wrong (like an abusive event) between your brother and Monkey, there's nothing anybody can do. They might even blame you, for choosing to live with someone known to be violent.

[rjy9343]

Bolt has some very good points. I wonder if maybe you are overwhelmed by what seems to be a rock and a hard place. I still think that you should look into aid for yourself only and do what you can with that or into moving out of state entirely and living on aid until you are able to support yourself. If something does happen, then the responsible party can lose custody. What is worse, an abusive father and uninterested step mother with very limited visitation or an abusive father and uninterested stepmother with primary physical custody and final decision making power?

[LovinBeingMommy]

Are you saying that in your opinion it is better to live with your parent's control/dicipline and your brother's potentially violent rage episodes, than it would be to live on state aid with your baby's father possibly having some vistiation privilidges?

Would you say that your brother or your ex is the more dangerous person?

In any case, I don't think I would let my child within arm's reach of a person that is capable of hurting him if he became enraged. You can do that without being obvious, just calling your son to come and play with you, or have a snack or something if he's in danger.

I was also thinking, if you live on your own, on state aid, and something goes wrong (like an abusive event) between your ex and Monkey, then the courts will put a stop to the visitation... but if something goes wrong (like an abusive event) between your brother and Monkey, there's nothing anybody can do. They might even blame you, for choosing to live with someone known to be violent.

His father is more dangerous both to me and him than my brother is. Trust me. And if he rapes me again, that sure won't get rid of his rights with Monkey. I've looked into it. My dad is friends with a lawyer so I have free legal advice through him. Right now, we're trying to make it so we've got the best possible case against him. He's been ignoring us for a little while and if he keeps it up, he'll be signing away his rights simply by not trying to communicate.

I do remove Monkey when things are bad. The rages are rare as long as everyone says/does the right thing. When I can see he's about to blow, Monkey and I leave. I have a friend two minutes away who said I'm free to come over any time, even if she's not home (she never locks her door). So I can get away when I need to and my brother seriously wants to move out. He doesn't make quite enough to live off of, but is building his savings so I think he'll be out as soon as he can afford an apartment.

[CelticJourney]

My apologies if I missed it somewhere in the thread, but have you talked to your parents about the situation? Tempers where things get broken is usuallya threat and domestic violence. You and your parents have the option of calling the police if things get bad. :hugheart

[ShiriChayim]

I totally get your need to keep yourself safe and away from needing state aid. It really stinks that this is how things are, but you're not the first friend I've seen have to deal with it and it really does stink. :( I agree with the posters about making sure your brother is not ever interacting one on one with monkey, I hear you saying you are working and steadily as possibly towards being self sufficient. What about doing an online college? I am working towards a teaching license doing that right now, it's all at home so I am still able to care for my children. As a single mother you would be able to get some really good aid for doing that. :yes

[bolt.]

It sounds like you really are between two really difficult positions. I don't think it's a good idea to be 'bossy' with your brother -- that's what I said before, but I understand more clearly now that he is actually dangerous, not just confrontational.

But that doesn't mean he gets to do what he wants with Monkey. It means that you don't let them spend much time together, even when your brother seems OK. If the two of them are together, you should be there too -- or else you should find an excuse to do something else with Monkey.

The person above is completely right: you never know when a toddler is going to hit someone, bite them, or smash something that matters. I'd hate to read you telling us that your brother hit the roof and threw monkey across the room before anyone could get close enough to save him.

You have probably at least reported your ex's rape to the police, right? Even if it can't be proven, it's good to have it on record. He may comit other unprovable crimes, and your testemony could be valuable in getting him convicted of something at some point.

[LovinBeingMommy]

My apologies if I missed it somewhere in the thread, but have you talked to your parents about the situation? Tempers where things get broken is usuallya threat and domestic violence. You and your parents have the option of calling the police if things get bad. :hugheart

We've talked about it. They don't wanna call the cops and "make it worse." I don't know how much worse it would really get. Every once in a while, my mom threatens to do it during a rage, but of course, he just takes the phone.

I totally get your need to keep yourself safe and away from needing state aid. It really stinks that this is how things are, but you're not the first friend I've seen have to deal with it and it really does stink. :( I agree with the posters about making sure your brother is not ever interacting one on one with monkey, I hear you saying you are working and steadily as possibly towards being self sufficient. What about doing an online college? I am working towards a teaching license doing that right now, it's all at home so I am still able to care for my children. As a single mother you would be able to get some really good aid for doing that. :yes

I'm kind of doing a combination of online and on campus. I took a class last semester on location, but honestly, it wasn't the best deal. I prefer doing it online compared to the local college, but I miss real classes... Next semester I'll probably just do online stuff.

It sounds like you really are between two really difficult positions. I don't think it's a good idea to be 'bossy' with your brother -- that's what I said before, but I understand more clearly now that he is actually dangerous, not just confrontational.

But that doesn't mean he gets to do what he wants with Monkey. It means that you don't let them spend much time together, even when your brother seems OK. If the two of them are together, you should be there too -- or else you should find an excuse to do something else with Monkey.

The person above is completely right: you never know when a toddler is going to hit someone, bite them, or smash something that matters. I'd hate to read you telling us that your brother hit the roof and threw monkey across the room before anyone could get close enough to save him.

You have probably at least reported your ex's rape to the police, right? Even if it can't be proven, it's good to have it on record. He may comit other unprovable crimes, and your testemony could be valuable in getting him convicted of something at some point.

I haven't reported it. My parents keep saying it's not worth it and whatever. I don't know how to go about just doing it. There's also the risk that it'll look made up to avoid the guy after a year and a half. I'm kind of at a loss there.

I have a lot of information that I haven't shared here that may play to my advantage if it goes to court, I just can't really share it in a public thread, like this one. The less the guy has access to, the better. I'm staying with my parents partly because of some of the unspoken stuff, not just money. For now, I'm just waiting it out and hoping things will be ok...

[CelticJourney]

Every once in a while, my mom threatens to do it during a rage, but of course, he just takes the phone.
My husband in in law enforcement. Saw this kind of thing all the time. Because you live with it, in it, all the time, you may not be able to see just how amazingly bad this is.

There are several outcomes I can see: 1) your ds learns that raging and bullying behavior gets him what he wants and the cycle continues 2) he survives it all, but not without the emotional scars (you can't live with that untouched) 3)your brother hurts him, badly 4) your brother hurts one of the adults in the house, the police have to come and your son is removed from the house because you all knew of the danger and none of you acted to make sure he was safe. The best option is 2 and I imagine it's not what you want.

I sugest you take up the conversation with your parents again and present the potential of 3 or 4 happening. I also suggest your parents contact some sort of legal advice to see what their options are in this case.

[ArmsOfLove]

part of the problem is that you are trying to navigate this situation while acting like a child and claiming the rights of an adult. You can't do both and get anywhere. Either you will step up and totally parent your child and set and hold to boundaries or you will continue to be a child and accept everyone else's input and help with parenting and then you get what you get. You can't take their help, let them have free reign, AND tell them how to do it. You're in a tough situation.

Ultimately you have to choose who you will be--child or mother. You can't immerse in both. :hugheart

[jenny_islander]

I endured being the little sister of a rager. Nobody stopped her. Nobody called her on her bad behavior. She didn't threaten me with outright injury, but she did destroy things I loved, things that made me feel secure, and she told me every day how bad I was, especially when I didn't do things quickly and easily that were not quick or easy for somebody my age. I feared and hated her until I was well into adulthood, years after I had seen her last. I am afraid of other people's anger. I still go back to being four feet tall without any rights when somebody gets angry.

Don't leave another little kid in a trap like that. Please get away from your brother as soon as you can; don't live in expectation that he will leave, but work toward your leaving instead. AND DON'T TELL ANY OF THEM WHERE YOU ARE!!!!!!!!!

[rjy9343]

I endured being the little sister of a rager. Nobody stopped her. Nobody called her on her bad behavior. She didn't threaten me with outright injury, but she did destroy things I loved, things that made me feel secure, and she told me every day how bad I was, especially when I didn't do things quickly and easily that were not quick or easy for somebody my age. I feared and hated her until I was well into adulthood, years after I had seen her last. I am afraid of other people's anger. I still go back to being four feet tall without any rights when somebody gets angry.
:hug

[Annainprogress]

I haven't reported it. My parents keep saying it's not worth it and whatever. I don't know how to go about just doing it. There's also the risk that it'll look made up to avoid the guy after a year and a half. I'm kind of at a loss there.

I have a lot of information that I haven't shared here that may play to my advantage if it goes to court, I just can't really share it in a public thread, like this one. The less the guy has access to, the better. I'm staying with my parents partly because of some of the unspoken stuff, not just money. For now, I'm just waiting it out and hoping things will be ok...

I'm astonished your parents discouraged you from telling the police. It's extremely unlikely you would be able to secure a conviction now (the best chance of doing that is straight after when there is physical evidence available to them). Do you have a good dv team in your state/county? We have a good multi-agency dv team here & it helped me processing to answer the dv questionnaire that assessed risk, then they offered me various forms of help including a restraining order. I decided that I didn't think he was likely to come back to mine (& he hasn't) but the assistance would've been there had I wanted it. I will PM you later (since as you say it's a public forum) but need to deal with kids right now :hug