So why don't people AP?

[Tee]

I was thinking about this after reading another thread about how you decided to become an AP parent. A lot of the responses were "I was reading/researching about..." and I got to thinking, do people who don't AP just don't research? I guess I am thinking of some examples in my extended family...they are punitive, CIO, etc. These are the people who criticize me for AP stuff, yet it seems as if they know nothing about it. What's up with that? :scratch Anyone else have judgemental people around them towards AP without even doing their own research about it? Maybe it's just easier to not do AP.:shrug3 Maybe again it's just the way people have been rasied. What do you think?

[Aerynne]

Most of the people I know who don't AP don't research.:shrug3

[ThreeKids]

Anything non-mainstream you do or believe automatically becomes something people expect you to have strong reasons for.

What that means is

You are expected to have strong and passionate reasons to AP (non-mainstream).
They aren't expected to even wonder why they do what everyone else does.

Just 'cause it seems like the thing to do is never accepted as a reason to do something non-AP.

[Psyche]

Its harder I think :shrug

[gardenfreshmama]

I think, too, a lot of people know someone who AP's that they consider "weird," or "a hippie." As for myself, i have an aunt who AP'ed... homebirthed, gentle discipline, etc. Unfortunately, they also ate dandelions, had TERRIBLE hygiene, and spoke in their own Klingon language. So yeah, it left a bad taste in my mouth for AP, :lol.

I'm not saying that we all have to conform to the standards of mainstream culture, but I think people get a little weirded out by all the different types of things we do... just a thought :shifty

[Psyche]

That's hilarious, Lynsey! The language part I mean.

[Carrie in PA]

I think most people either just don't question the mainstream advice of standard punitive, detached parenting, or they just repeat they way they were raised, or, sadly, they just aren't tuned into their instincts and the nurturing side of being a parent. It is easier for them to just follow rules than to listen to their heart or connect with a tiny human being (or full-grown human beings) on a deeper level that AP involves.

Sad all around, actually. :-(

[MarynMunchkins]

I agree that it's most likely because people weren't raised that way and it takes hard work and effort, as well as research, to change.

The things that were easiest for me - baby-wearing and breastfeeding were modelled to me by my mother. The gentle discipline had to be learned on my own.

[prov31craftymom]

I find that most people don't do any research. Why research something that has been done for centuries? :shrug3 People just don't want to put in the time. It's easier to just be a follower of the mainstream world. (For them anyways)

[proudmommaof3]

I think most people either just don't question the mainstream advice of standard punitive, detached parenting, or they just repeat they way they were raised, or, sadly, they just aren't tuned into their instincts and the nurturing side of being a parent. It is easier for them to just follow rules than to listen to their heart or connect with a tiny human being (or full-grown human beings) on a deeper level that AP involves.

Sad all around, actually. :-(

I agree! Most people just go along with what they are taught not thinking about how it might affect their children. That and pure laziness to actually put forth the effort and make a change.

[Rabbit]

I don't think it's easier not to. I think it's scary to AP. It involves trust in something you may -never- have actually seen someone do, much less experienced it yourself, and it doesn't matter one whit how many thousands of tribal people do it every day. It also takes from you what you yourself were probably never given. It is -very- hard for me to be attached to my children, when I was severely detached from my parents. Attachment to children who are somewhat parasitic is terrifying. What if they never stop NEEDING me? And the "mainstream" view is that being AP will ruin your child. Who wants to risk that?

[Emerald Orchid]

If I base my assumption on my mainstream SIL and some friends, they don't want to put in the effort that AP requires, they don't think it matters (CIO won't hurt, bottle is just as good, etc.), they don't research, and they want independent children from birth, who sttn yesterday and don't comfort nurse. :rolleyes

[itzj]

I think it's harder. It's more demanding. People don't research. But I have also noticed that in observing non-ap parents around me that they are willing to meet their needs so long as in the end the parental need comes first. I know we all have our breaking points but I think this coupled with lack of research seals it. Our culture is so self promoting and to me ap has me joyfully putting DD always first. I love it but I can tell others just don't get it.

[Johns_Gal]

*sniffle* I eat dandelions! *sob* :lol But I just washed my hair and I speak like a normal person. You guys still love me, right? :nails :shifty

I think alot of it is selfishness. I don't say that feeling superior at all, but it's just... I can't think what else makes people think some mainstream practices are okay. :( It's our culture, sadly.

My cat was a better parent than some folks I know.

[canadiyank]

I think many of us are in the same boat as I was...simply weren't aware there were other options. :shrug I literally stumbled across AP (Mothering mag in a bookstore I picked up) and it "felt right." I certainly didn't research a bunch or something, weigh my options out, and then decide AP had more in the "pro" column than the other options had. :lol Maybe some people do that, I don't know, :think but that's not how it happened for me so I suppose I don't expect it to be that way for others. Hmm.

[yellowheart]

IMNSHO.....AP (and then its sister gentle discipline) requires a lot of time, patience, and GOYB. It can be very labor intensive. And....it requires a tremendous amount of unending self-sacrifice on the part of the parents....mostly the mama....for YEARS on end. It is Christ-like service and devotion. Sadly many in our society (incl. fellow Christians) are unwilling to sacrifice this much for their children.

[allisonintx]

In many ways, AP is inconvenient.

[Kiara.I]

In many ways, AP is inconvenient.

But in many ways, I find it to be much more convenient.

Why would I want to spend time and energy walking to the elevator, and waiting for it, with my stroller--when I could just take the stairs while wearing my kid?
Why would I want to get out of bed in the middle of the night and spend 1/2 hour warming a bottle and feeding the child, while getting cold--when I could just half sit up, nurse, replace, lie down and sleep (while still toasty warm)?
Why would I want to spend time and energy "teaching" my child to sleep through the night--when I could just nurse them back to sleep in about 2 minutes?
Why would I want to spend the teen years fighting to detach my child from his peers--when I could have just maintained the attachment bond to us in the first place?

[Elora]

i have to go with inconvenience

the ppli know who are punitive think it's ridiculous for your children to be such an inconvenience. they want to leave their kids with sitters overnight so they can still go out - so breastfeeding and cosleeping are out of the question. they've actually made comments about how they'd invite me camping or wherever, but my kids are too needy. like iwould rather be camping with them than here with my kids. i'm not sure why ppl have kids for others to raise. but it does seem like it's easier for them. sometimes i feel like i make things so hard for myself, but i just keep telling myself that it's for the good of my kiddos ;) and it helps that my dh is SUPER in tune with our babies, and he is going completely on his instincts...and his insticts are totally "AP" ...even though he doesn't have a clue what "AP" is lol.

i was very sad recently when my mom said that she saw the advantages to the way my sister parents. (sis is totally NOT APing) mom said that it was so easy to put babies in a bed on a schedule and have them just fall asleep. on their own. ...and the parents go about their business. and sis' kids sleep all night.

i wonder if my mom knows how much CIO it took to get there

my mom *feels bad for me* :shrug3 because dh and i don't sleep together. because my 3 yr old still needs to sleep with someone. he still wakes up at night. dd wakes up and nurses all night long. she wouldn't take bottles. i'm beyond exhausted and am too thin and look really awful with permanent dark circles under my eyes. i've lost 3/4 of my hair. i put everything into my kids and have little left everyone else.

so what. my kids come first right now. it's bad enough i have to work, i don't WANT any MORE time away from my kids. so friendships are on hold. shopping is on hold. anything extra is on hold. my babies are IT. yeah it's work. i knew what i was signing up for. this is a season in my life and this is what i want. my babies are incredible. i'm already seeing HUGE benefits to APing :) HUGE. and my kids are so very little still. i wouldn't change a thing. i thought about it when ds was 10 months old. he drove me insane with his clingyness and night wakings. it was then that i realized AP was harder. and i think it was allison in tx that told me that ap creates clingy toddlers but once they found their independence they'd take off running. and she was right :) of course lol. ds found his independence at 2.5 and he's so confident already. and now i'm more motivated and assured than i ever was. i'm tired and rambling i am not sure now if i've even answered the question but I LOVE AP :gcm

---------- Post added at 03:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 AM ----------

But in many ways, I find it to be much more convenient.

Why would I want to spend time and energy walking to the elevator, and waiting for it, with my stroller--when I could just take the stairs while wearing my kid?
Why would I want to get out of bed in the middle of the night and spend 1/2 hour warming a bottle and feeding the child, while getting cold--when I could just half sit up, nurse, replace, lie down and sleep (while still toasty warm)?
Why would I want to spend time and energy "teaching" my child to sleep through the night--when I could just nurse them back to sleep in about 2 minutes?
Why would I want to spend the teen years fighting to detach my child from his peers--when I could have just maintained the attachment bond to us in the first place?eh, it's all perspective. my sis thinks i'm nuts for "having to carry" my kids everywhere. she wouldn't take the stairs even if she WEREN'T pushing a stroller...why on earth walk when you could ride. and unfortunately a lot of people who don't AP are letting their babies cry it out. they're not getting out of bed or waking up at all. and eventually their babies "learn" that mommy won't answer them so they just stop asking for her. they are still waking up but they just go back to sleep. see what i mean? it's all perspective. it might seem logical to us but to *them* we're nuts and making things much harder

[cavalier]

I think people just don't know another option exists. Our parents spanked us (and the "gentle" ones did punitive time outs), our pediatricians tell us to sleep train and CIO from a few weeks old, and society tells us that anything otherwise is permissive parenting. Co-sleeping is viewed as dangerous and irresponsible, and babywearing is viewed negatively as well.

I might be too new to say something this controversial (sorry), but I also blame the churches. People look to spiritual leaders for guidance, but I've yet to see an AP supportive church. Everyone is pro-Babywise, pro-TTUAC, and pro-SACH, and they make it seem like AP/not spanking/not sleeptraining makes you a bad Christian, as well as a bad parent.

[yellowheart]

I might be too new to say something this controversial (sorry), but I also blame the churches. People look to spiritual leaders for guidance, but I've yet to see an AP supportive church. Everyone is pro-Babywise, pro-TTUAC, and pro-SACH, and they make it seem like AP/not spanking/not sleeptraining makes you a bad Christian, as well as a bad parent.

Ummm....in this neck of the woods this isn't controversial at all!! Its more like a common belief.

That said....Welcome aboard!

[cbmk4]

could I add that non-AP parenting and GBD could be more work but in my case, life is getting much easier since I started using GBD! My highly spirited, high needs daughters did not respond well to punitive approaches, and our lives were getting very stressful! The last few years have been much easier!

Granted, I am speaking from the position of having older children now, but it's all a matter of perspective on which approach is more convenient.

[bananacake]

As for myself, i have an aunt who AP'ed... homebirthed, gentle discipline, etc. Unfortunately, they also ate dandelions, had TERRIBLE hygiene, and spoke in their own Klingon language. So yeah, it left a bad taste in my mouth for AP, :lol.

So I shouldn't let it get out that my son & I love dandelion greens? :paranoid :paranoid :paranoid

[Vicki_T]

IMO it's mostly down to convenience, with AP seen as being the harder option (especially with regards to sleep) and parents placing a high priority on having time without children. I think people are also concerned that they should 'start as they mean to go on' and that parenting a baby to sleep or nursing on demand (for example) condemns them to doing this for years.

As far as convenience goes, I think *totally* AP-ing is pretty easy, but it's very difficult to do it in half measures. What I mean is, co-sleeping and nursing back to sleep are pretty easy and get you about as much sleep as leaving your baby to cio in the nursery. But if you want your baby to sleep in a crib, possibly in his/her own room, but don't want to leave him or her to cry, you're going to be getting out of bed a lot.

[jewelmcjem]

We had friends whose toddler was a delightful, obedient little boy (probably personality type more than anything), and they told us all about this awesome parenting class called Growing Kids God's Way. We went to the Prep for Parenting classes, where the first things they teach is that natural/nature is not of God, it is of the flesh. That if you AP, your child will be disobendient, wild, and will run your house. You will be constantly haggard and sleep deprived. Even though developmentally they acknowledge that obedience isn't really possible as an infant, you are setting the stage for disobedience in later stages if you 'give in' now. You are filling their hearts with positive morals to pull from later in life when they are old enough to make decisions on their own. If you don't reign things in tightly and fill their hearts with these moral choices now, they won't have them to pull from later.

You hear enough of that stuff early on, when you are pg with your first child, it makes a LOT of sense and AP sounds like a very sinful, worldly way to raise a child. ESPECIALLY if you have never heard any Christian anywhere teaching from a Christian AP point of view.

[cbmk4]

related to the last post...

I get a little miffed when parents take too much credit for how well their kids behave, turn out, etc. Of course, good parenting has its rewards, but I got served up a mighty big dish of humble pie after I had my third child. I used to look slightly askance at some families and wonder why the parents didn't have their kids "under control." Then my third came along and all the wonderful parenting I thought I did with my older two did nothing to "control" my spirited girl. Her third year was a nightmare because of the punitive approach we took.

In short, I'm learning that how kids turn out is at least as much due to the way God made them as anything else. I'm priviliged to play a role in helping them grow up, but that's about it.

[Carrie in PA]

ITA with this!

I get compliments regularly on how nice and well-behaved my children are. I am hesitant to take it too much to heart, though i appreciate it, because i don't believe that my mothering is totally responsible for them being great kids. It's a combination of gentle mothering, home environment, trust relationship and respecting their personalities as God made them (my first was tough and didn't get so many good comments until he was older...and i was the same kind of parent then). God made each child different and that is where AP shines - in respecting each child AS IS and working with them as they are, NOT trying to get them to conform to some standard that most rigid....and unfortunately so-called "christian parenting" programs promote.

[gardenfreshmama]

I might be too new to say something this controversial (sorry), but I also blame the churches. People look to spiritual leaders for guidance, but I've yet to see an AP supportive church. Everyone is pro-Babywise, pro-TTUAC, and pro-SACH, and they make it seem like AP/not spanking/not sleeptraining makes you a bad Christian, as well as a bad parent.

Just wanted to say that I totally agree with this. Like we don't have enough guilt and confusion put on us as parents, we also get to have the church dumping it on as well. Welcome, Cavalier!

For the record, I think it's great if you all want to eat dandelions :lol. I'm just saying that as a teenager being raised on hot dogs, frozen pizzas and Ding Dongs, I thought it was pretty darn weird!

[Cookie Momster]

I don't "AP" because it is or isn't mainstream, or because it is or isn't convenient. I don't subscribe to every little thing that seems to fall under the AP umbrella. I just parent the way that seems natural and right for my family which just so happens to mostly fall under the AP definition. Maybe other parents do this too but for their families what's "natural" and "right" falls mostly under the mainstream umbrella?

[Tee]

I don't "AP" because it is or isn't mainstream, or because it is or isn't convenient. I don't subscribe to every little thing that seems to fall under the AP umbrella. I just parent the way that seems natural and right for my family which just so happens to mostly fall under the AP definition. Maybe other parents do this too but for their families what's "natural" and "right" falls mostly under the mainstream umbrella?

Yeah true. I just have a feeling that more parents that practice AP and especially GD have actually read/researched and educated themselves about the differences. From my experience, it's not true the other way around. Maybe going against the grain of your own family is too hard...:shrug3

[Vicki_T]

Maybe other parents do this too but for their families what's "natural" and "right" falls mostly under the mainstream umbrella?

I'm not sure. I've heard plenty of mothers say that their husbands had to physically stop them from going into their crying babies during sleep training. They may think sleep training is 'right' but it seems to go against their natural instincts.

[Karen]

I think there are a few things that come into play. One of the things I discovered when I begin to explore the AP community was there are some seriously researched mommas in here. Whether your vax, don't vax, use EC, cloth diapers, whatever your choice, inevitably a great deal of time, thought, and research went into the decision. I think that mainstream parents are not as interested with committing that much time and effort into such learning. I know many that don't really think about parenting at all they just react.

Within the Christian community, I see something else entirely. What I see is AP=GD=permissive parenting= wild children= you can't guarantee yourself the perfect Christian children that will look good at church and you can guarantee their salvation. Now, no one can actually guarantee the last part no matter what. I have been told that by not spanking, I am risking my child's eternal soul. Well, see that is a matter for the Holy Spirit. I live out my relationship with Christ in front of my children but ultimately, it is between them and God. My response was, if God can get around the crack mothers, horrible abusive upbringings, being sold into sexual slavery, and any other manner of horrific experiences that He calls His children from, then I am pretty sure He can get around me not spanking.

That sounds flippant but I have seen so many parents forget that Christ's sacrifice is responsible for our salvation and there is not parenting program that can take the place of the cruxifiction and ressurection. Also, I see so many churchs really emphasize the sin nature in children. It isn't developmental, its SIN!!!! My precious two year old has a beautiful, free spirit nature. I was told that I better and I quote "grind that out of her right now and teach her to toe the line and jump when she is told to jump." I was horrified. I responded that I would rather sacrifice my own life rather than see her ground down to a mindless, fearful, docile little automaton.

[Kyasmom]

IME I see fear. Fear of how much more work it will be later if they "give in" now, fear of harming their child, and fear of having a child-centered family.

Our culture does not trust the process of growing and learning. It seems to say that children will *only* learn what is taught them... including independance.

People that have told me about their experiences with CIO talk about it like it was difficult, but that they knew it was what was "best for the family". They seem to percieve their natural desire to attach in that way as weakness on their part.

Also, there are many many people that I have met that fall in the middle ground. They aren't really AP, and they aren't really Ezzo either. I think they are trying to follow their heart as well as follow societal norms. Which kind of leaves this wierd pull in two directions for them. :shrug3

[movinforward]

What a great thread! I agree w/ so many things that have been said here. I think I try to "hide" my AP/GD a bit from friends and family. I don't want to be called the "weird one." I make excuses for carrying DS, not vaxing, still breastfeeding....I know I should just be honest, but not a single one of my friends/family practices AP or GD. Some of them are as others mention, middle of the road, but no one is as far into it as I am. Recently, I received a 2 page letter from a "friend" bascially telling me I was not following God's commandments and my 3 1/2 y/o will have no clue who God is because she can tell by the look in his eyes that he shows no respect for me or my DH. Sigh...thank goodness for the support on this board.

[mommychem]

I think people just don't know another option exists. Our parents spanked us (and the "gentle" ones did punitive time outs), our pediatricians tell us to sleep train and CIO from a few weeks old, and society tells us that anything otherwise is permissive parenting. Co-sleeping is viewed as dangerous and irresponsible, and babywearing is viewed negatively as well.

I might be too new to say something this controversial (sorry), but I also blame the churches. People look to spiritual leaders for guidance, but I've yet to see an AP supportive church. Everyone is pro-Babywise, pro-TTUAC, and pro-SACH, and they make it seem like AP/not spanking/not sleeptraining makes you a bad Christian, as well as a bad parent.
Amen sister and WELCOME! On another note, I mentioned the term "AP" to my mom, who was working on her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology at the time and she replied that research indicates that the method does not foster children's independence. I'm glad I didn't listen to her as my almost 15 month old has shocked her and I on her level of independent play (mom actually timed dd once and observed that dd can play longer by herself than some of the 3 yo mom works with in the headstart program)! She obviously still needs me a lot, but it has been a great testimony to mom.

[Karen]

What a great thread! I agree w/ so many things that have been said here. I think I try to "hide" my AP/GD a bit from friends and family. I don't want to be called the "weird one." I make excuses for carrying DS, not vaxing, still breastfeeding....I know I should just be honest, but not a single one of my friends/family practices AP or GD. Some of them are as others mention, middle of the road, but no one is as far into it as I am. Recently, I received a 2 page letter from a "friend" bascially telling me I was not following God's commandments and my 3 1/2 y/o will have no clue who God is because she can tell by the look in his eyes that he shows no respect for me or my DH. Sigh...thank goodness for the support on this board.

Aw, that makes me sad. I am sorry someone felt the need to "correct" your parenting. I am also glad I don't use the "look in their eyes" approach to parenting. That would be too confusing.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 PM ----------

Amen sister and WELCOME! On another note, I mentioned the term "AP" to my mom, who was working on her Bachelor's Degree in Psychology at the time and she replied that research indicates that the method does not foster children's independence. I'm glad I didn't listen to her as my almost 15 month old has shocked her and I on her level of independent play (mom actually timed dd once and observed that dd can play longer by herself than some of the 3 yo mom works with in the headstart program)! She obviously still needs me a lot, but it has been a great testimony to mom.

My baby girl is crazy independent. There is no problem there.

---------- Post added at 03:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 PM ----------

Aw, that makes me sad. I am sorry someone felt the need to "correct" your parenting. I am also glad I don't use the "look in their eyes" approach to parenting. That would be too confusing.

---------- Post added at 03:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:59 PM ----------



My baby girl is crazy independent. There is no problem there.

With my first, I was doing AP through basically my momma's intution. Then is when I really learned about it. Wtih my second, I am much more mainstream AP, if you know what I mean. Definately a hippy compare to most mainstream parents be middle of the road for AP. However, if God blesses us with a third? I will probably still be more middle of the road AP but I think I will hoist up my full on AP/GD freak flag for all my mainstream and punititive mindset friends and aquaintances to see in full color!

Seriously, I love that I become more and more confident with my parenting and kids each day. I seem to be more thick skinned and open hearted at the same time. That is all because of God's grace and love for me. I don't have to care what anyone else says but I do try to love them.

[christineka]

I think it is ignorance. I didn't do AP stuff with baby number one because I thought I had to go by the book. (I had the "What to expect" series.) I did the same stuff with dd2, but got started on parenting message boards. The more children I had and the more I read turned me AP and I am very weird compared to most of the parents I know. I am also a completely different person than I was 9 years ago.

[BarefootBetsy]

I also see a lot of fear... fear of the unknown. People know that they turned out fine after being raised in a mainstream way. They generally don't know many people who call themselves AP/GD and sadly sometimes when they do, those people are really practicing permissive parenting but calling it GD which means others are seeing kids who are being raised permissively and they associate *that* with gentle discipline or attachment parenting.

As far as fear goes also, I cannot even tell y'all how many people have decided to give ECing a shot once they see me taking my baby out to potty or once they found out that my 1 year old was reliably out of diapers. Many of these folks even knew about it before meeting me, but they hadn't tried it because it was so "out there" and they didn't actually know anyone who'd done it.

I agree also with the person on the first page (sorry, read the thread a couple hours ago and didn't take good enough note of your sn :O) who said that APing is so much more difficult if you don't do it whole hog. I mean really, not CIOing while not co-sleeping is such a perfect example of how being part-AP would be amazingly difficult! Thank you for posting that!

It's also just hard to go against the norm... it's hard to disagree with more experienced parents who tell you things like, "Breastfeeding ties you down." or "You'll never get them out of your bed!" or "Nip that in the bud now or you'll be sorry later!"

So, I'm thinking that those of us who practice AP/GD (especially some of the more extreme things lie ECing) are folks who don't mind going against the grain. We don't mind experimenting with different ways of doing things. We don't have a problem telling well-meaning meddlesome folks, "Well, I hear what you're saying and appreciate the thought, but I'm going to try my way first."

Most people just aren't like that :shrug3 which is why I think it's so important to not hide our parenting and lifestyles from others. There was some article a while back about how important seeing others breastfeed is to new and future moms. The more often a new mom has been exposed to others breastfeeding, the more likely she is to successfully breastfeed. I think it's the same with all the rest of this.

If nobody knows we use GD/GBD with our children then they won't know that it can result in well-adjusted, polite children. If nobody knows we co-sleep and extended-nurse then they won't realize that our extremely independent 4-yo nursed for just over 4 years and just moved to her own bed a few weeks ago. For many people, seeing is believing and our way of parenting is just not very visible in our society.

You can't be scared of the unknown if it's known :yes

[emerald]

I agree with what's already been posted.
I think there are so many assumptions about GBD, that it means kids will be disrespectful and your marriage won't be strong (that is what has been said in MOPS groups that I've been too).
Some of it has to do with a skewed image of God. Some thing God is out to punish them for their behavior and/or is generally in a bad mood, so that flows into their parenting.
If you think that God is mad at you (or you're just barely squeaking by in his sight), you're not going to love yourself much, and your ability to love others-even your kids-is going to be harmed.

Other reasons-health reasons prevent a growing number of women from breastfeeding exclusively, neck/back problems preventing extended baby-wearing, depression getting more common and that could prevent parents from doing GBD for a lot of reasons.

[Shiloh]

In my experience, and in the experience of people I know, co-sleeping and demand nursing through the night can lead to severe sleep deprivation with no end in sight due to frequent wake-ups and strong sleep associations for the baby. I am a HUGE believer in the importance of sleep, especially for babies, but also for parents. That is why I don't co-sleep anymore and why I'll be night-weaning DD soon (and I think I should have done it much sooner).

I also think AP can get a little bit "religious" and "legalistic." Like, "Look at all the Dr. Sears Boxes I can check off! I am SO AP!" and it gets a little absurd. This isn't a religion, it's just some suggestions that worked well for his family. I can't call myself AP, because I'm so turned off by the "religiousness" of it. I can't stand parental competition and judgment. I try to hang around moms who don't judge each other -- who think that each parent is doing the best they can.

The question, to me, is not "Why don't people AP?" it's "Why don't people trust themselves to make good judgments as parents?" and people have answered that question really well already.

[motherlyservant]

I just joined but have researched alot. I think there are a few reasons why people don't AP. #1- they listen to other peoples opinions and aren't confident enough in what they feel is right to go through with it.

#2-it takes alot more patience, time, and effort to be a GCM. It is easy to spank a kid for not doing what you say, but taking the time to teach them is alot more selfless

[IslandHome]

My reasons for not AP'g from the start were very practical. I had read a lot about AP, had even spent some time on the public GCM boards. I also had the experience of living in a village setting for a while where AP'g was practiced in the most natural way. In my heart of hearts I felt it was the 'right' way to parent.

But.... I figured it was fine to AP if you had help. It makes sense in a village or family group setting, where there's always a spare set of arms to help with a crying baby. I had seen mothers who held there babies a lot and always seemed to be exhausted - I figured I wanted an 'independent' child, who would be happy to go to other people, and would sleep through the night (oh, so important :doh)

That's why Ezzo appealed to me at the time - it seemed a way of having a baby, and still 'surviving' and getting enough sleep.

Thankfully we had a high-needs baby who needed AP'g :lol and now I just can't imagine parenting any other way. :phew

[Maggirayne]

Hmm :cup

[Patrysha]

I think a huge part of it has to do with modeling. At least as far as certain elements of AP go, (and I assume for GD too, but I don't know that part from personal experience)...

My step mom cloth diapered & breastfed (though she transitioned to bottles at a year with my sisters...but I don't recall with my brother...my younger sister had a hard time letting go of her bottle so I think they avoided bottles with my brother...but it could be I am just not remembering) They did use a crib though.

So when I had my first it was in my head that breastfeeding and cloth diapering and the crib were the way to go.

And that was after reading every mainstream book and magazine on the market...from Dr. Spock to What to Expect to the Ferber book.

Of course, I also read the Womanly Art of Breastfeeding & a title or three from Dr. Sears...and those pushed me further along the spectrum with co-sleeping, child-led weaning and so on.

I think that most people aren't apt to be looking to do more than what they grew up with unless they are discontent.

[Rose5000]

What is EC-ing?

I want to comment on the comment about "my friend said she couldtell by the look in my ds's eye that he totally does not respect me and my dh"......(I'm typing it as a quote as I remember it---not exact, because I dont' yet know how to use he "copy and paste" function on a laptop with no mouse).....

This comment reminds me soooooooo much of a comment made to me about 2 years ago by a friend who was teaching at a Christian pre-school co-op , where she had taught about 10 years ago and was now teaching again.

She said she could tell by the children's behavior in the new class those kids who were being spanked at home and those who were not....that there was a total difference in their behavior and the ones that were not spanked did not have the respect for her as a teacher that those who had been spanked had.......

She was telling me this in the context of "I had better start parenting God's way, and start spanking my then 3 year old son, if I didn't want to be 'sorry'."

I felt tremendous pressure from this conversation, felt like I didn't measure up as a Christian parent, and I better change things around or I'd be in a heap of trouble soon raising out-of-control kids. We had adopted our children from the County and we had never spanked, and my friend's ideas made me feel inadequate as a parent.

[musiclady]

cultural norms. people tend to go with what the culture dictates, and as a result aren't tuned in to there bodies or themselves anymore because they are more swayed by the "norms" of society and unless you are confident its hard to go aganst the grain.
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[Waterlogged]

What a great thread! I agree w/ so many things that have been said here. I think I try to "hide" my AP/GD a bit from friends and family. I don't want to be called the "weird one." I make excuses for carrying DS, not vaxing, still breastfeeding....

So here's my opposite point of view.

On GCM, I think I try to "hide" my mainstream-ness. I don't want to be called the "mainstream", "non-enlightened" one. I make excuses for having a routine for DD, using a stroller, vaxing, etc.

Yet IRL, I sometimes have to defend the use of a carrier/sling instead of a stroller, or respond to comments about DD being a mama's girl b/c I can't leave her in the nursery.

I don't think any aspect of parenting is all-or-nothing. The great parts of all the parenting literature point to many of the same things: secure attachment, acceptance of normal developmental and behavioral stages, positive methods of discipline. It seems the Christians have screwed it up by placing such an emphasis on the sin nature of babies and children, and by putting spanking out there as God's chosen form of discipline.

I am working hard not to judge other parents. You never know how they came to the decisions they came to. Y'all wouldn't know that I have my own sleep issues, and that co-sleeping would be a nightmare for my moods and emotional stability. But from the outside, I'm not cosleeping out of selfishness. Except that not co-sleeping was a carefully thought out decision, taking my own mental health issues into consideration. Having a mama in the psych ward wouldn't be ideal....:-/

[LorenP]

I agree that we tend to follow what has been modelled around us especially if it seems to be working well. I had a friend in church who had the perfect package family, so before DS1 I asked her for advice. She gave me a regimented CIO book. I think I only read the first chapter as the whole idea seemed wrong to me. Luckily my mother is well researched into AP (for adopted children) so she was supportive of most of our decisions.

My family and friends read ... but they don't research. Based on what they have read they think that they are doing what is best for their children. And if you go to the library/bookstore so many of the books that are popular are based on anecdotal evidence that is written convincingly along mainstream lines. Having a science background, I am hesitant to read something that doesn't have a reference section as long as the book itself. Statistics .... even better!

AP appears to be inconvenient and time consuming. I also feel that it is anti-social at times. I spend more time with the children on play dates, am often taking my children to the toilet (ECing the littlest one), I gomb to adjudicate and comfort while the other mothers are still chatting. I often don't say what we do at home because it gets too many negative comments. If I share what we do it is often done flippantly or in a joke.

Another point that seems to be quite prevalent at the moment is the focus on self or "taking care of mum". I seem to hear these things all the time, and esp at MOPS atm: make sure that you make time for yourself (don't carry the baby/children all the time) .. take care of yourself (sleep without baby) .. take care of your relationship (leave baby with sitters for dates) ... a happy mother = a happy baby (breastfeeding and everything else you didn't want to do). I have just finished group therapy for PND and this was the majority of their advice to me. I will not change my AP style for something inferior that will make me unhappy.

I wonder why we (as a society) don't seem to value the commitment and sacrifice it takes to parent well? Why is it not enough to only have Motherhood as a goal.

I am reassured by Colossians 3:23 'Whatever you do, do it with all your heart'.

[Kiara.I]

AP appears to be inconvenient and time consuming. I also feel that it is anti-social at times. .
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I wonder why we (as a society) don't seem to value the commitment and sacrifice it takes to parent well? Why is it not enough to only have Motherhood as a goal.

And, AP should *not* be anti-social. But, because of the prevailing "mainstream" culture, it is. If *all* the mums were pottying their kids, or GOTBs to adjudicate, you'd have company wherever you were. If we really lived in "villages" instead of single households isolated from our neighbours, then mom really could leave her babies with the neighbour for a couple of hours, or with grandma or grandpa, and it would be totally AP because the whole village would be involved with the family.

But instead, AP isolates us. :think Odd, no?

[Niphredil]

AP requires more thinking and more doing, IMO. In the long run I think it's easier, but I can see how it looks harder from the outside. I just got back from a week of vacation with my mainstream SIL and I can see how it looks easier - her (scared, I'd say) 18 month old doesn't mess with the purees being spoon fed to her while my 12 month old has chili in her hair; I have to GOMB ten trillion times to keep the peace and aid toy sharing, she shuts her toy thief in the bedroom and lets her cry for "two" minutes. When her kid was in the ER it was easier to follow the doctors orders (cathed and scoped for the stomach flu, poor thing!) than question and learn and understand.

[BarefootBetsy]

What is EC-ing?

The practice of Elimination Communication - pottying infants or young toddlers (holding them over an appropriate receptacle) when they show signs of needing to potty or when it's been about the amount of time it takes for their bladders to fill up again.

You can find more out about it here:
http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/

I've done it with all three of my girls and it has worked well for our family! I don't think it's for everyone, but I love it. It typically results in earlier potty-independence (although not always) and fewer incidences of diaper rash as well as using less water to wash diapers or fewer dispasables than full-time diapering does.

It used to be done in some form nearly everywhere, but since the advent of disposable diapers, washers, and dryers, it's fallen out of common use. It's not coercive and follows the baby's own cues and patterns as opposed to following the parents' schedules so it's considered AP and is still considered a pretty fringe-type thing to do by most Americans.

[DesiringHim]

I agree with the PP who said that it's in large part just because of what we see modeled around us. Especially in the church community. If a particular church seems to preach from the pulpit about certain ways to raise your kid, I think most are going to swallow it hook, line, and sinker. Not because of any sinister intentions of course -- they just believe it must be the best way, or the most godly way.

For example, in our previous non-denom church the pastor was very well respected and had grown children who were active in their faith. He was quite open about his support of spanking and punitive parenting (in fact we were given handouts once that said we should be authoritarian, harsh parents until our children reached age 10, and at that point we could back off a bit... :troubled) DH and I didn't have children at this point but I know we both thought he was a wise man and figured he must know what he was talking about. Other families in the church followed his advice and they all seemed to have such perfect children, and thus that convinced us even more. There was also an unhealthy church culture there that I think prevented most people from thinking for themselves. Everyone was expected to do things the same way as everyone else and if you didn't, you felt ostracized.

Thankfully we got out of there before we had children and now we attend a very grace-filled, pro-child Catholic parish. But a lot of people don't escape or have the courage to think differently and be OK with that, and so they follow what is preached to them and/or what they see modeled by all the other families. I think a lot of people don't even realize there is an alternative, or they have been conditioned to see AP parenting as permissive parenting (we certainly did...DH still really struggles with that).

Family pressure can also be a biggie.

I consider it really a special grace from God that we've been increasingly open to AP. I honestly thank God :heart that I had the disposition when we had our DD to listen to my motherly instincts and the passion to find out more about parenting according to those instincts. I believe He gave me that disposition and passion, and while I'm far from being a 'perfect AP mama,' He is continuing to help me parent with more grace each day.