Obedience and Cheerfulness

[gardenfreshmama]

Yesterday morning at MOPS I was talking with a friend who homeschools and she mentioned that recently she went to a homeschool conference. One of the things that was heavily pushed was obedience. She said that they said obedience should consist of three things: 1) done immediately 2) done cheerfully and 3) done thoroughly.

My first immediate thought (and response - no filter, you know!) was "I don't agree with that." But I couldn't put my finger on exactly why. I told her I'd have to think about it and get back with her. The only reasoning she could give me is "it's in the Bible." Well, I've been looking for Scripture that backs this concept up and I'm finding nothing. There are verses about giving cheerfully and showing mercy cheerfully, but nothing about obeying cheerfully. Does anyone have any insight on where this idea comes from (Scripturally-wise)?

I didn't ask what the consequences were if these requirements weren't met. Sometimes I just get so :sick of hearing about it, and i have a hard time keeping my opinions to myself so I usually just don't ask. But I'm guessing it's followed up by some sort of punishment or consequence.

I think the biggest problem I have with requiring "cheerfulness" is that to me, cheerfulness and attitude are a matter of the heart. IMO, there's nothing I can do that changes my child's heart. I can provide the kind of environment that encourages the heart, and I can have the kind of relationship with my children that fosters cheerfulness out of love, but the choice is still theirs. And forcing it is just going to end up in resentment and a worse attitude.

Any other thoughts/opinions? Maybe someone else was at the same homeschool conference and can give me some insight into the Scriptural reference being used.

[Meli]

I agree with you. I can't think of an example where God required cheerfulness in obeying.

I can think of a few examples of people who obeying kicking and screaming a protesting all the way though (eg Jonah, David, Moses). And God continued to show them grace and mercy, even while He was getting them to follow through on his commands, or allowing them to face the natural consequences of disobedience.

[Rea T]

I think there may be a few instances of slaves being asked to serve their masters joyfully, or something along those lines. But I consider that to be a very different situation than asking a child to be cheerful when they don't feel like it.

I certainly don't do everything cheerfully, immediately or thoroughly. (Exhibit 1...my house.)

[NovelMama]

It makes me so angry when people expect behavior of children that adults aren't even capable of.

There's nothing in the Bible about that. And I think it's safe to assume that the Bible was written to adults, and not children. It might say to have a cheerful heart in all circumstances. but to do that you need a great deal more mental and emotional maturity than a child has.

[cornflower]

It is NOT Biblical. It is formulaic parenting for convenience's sake a al the Ezzos (Babywise/Growing Kids God's Way) and the Pearls (To Train Up a Child). Both of these authors/programs are HORRID and any conference that was actively promoting either method would make me run for the hills.

[katiekind]

She may come back at you with the scripture about doing things without grumbling and complaining. However in adding stipulations to that that WE think would be important, I think we get a little holier than God on this subject.

You could show her the parable Jesus tells about two sons. One said he would obey his father right away...but didn't. The other son said he wouldn't obey, but later changed his mind and did the father's will. Jesus turns to his listeners and asked rhetorically, Which son was obedient? The second son.

Whatever else Jesus may be up to in telling that parable, one thing it does show is that Jesus is not hung up on first-time-obedience.

[jenn3514]

You can not command a child to be cheerful. You can force them to put a fake smile on their face, and say the correct words, but that doesn't mean that in their heart they are not wrestling with their big feelings. And now- because parents demanded this- the parent can not help teach the child to cope with the feelings in a way that both recognizes them and teaches an appropriate way of expressing them.
I agree with pp's there is nothing in the Bible that commands us to be instantly happy, all of the time. I believe that our emotional growth is one of the things that can bring us into a stronger relationship with God. He created us in His image, and in the Bible it indicates that He also has emotions.

[mommy2abigail]

ok so who promotes that phrase? Ezzo or Pearl? Cause someone I know has it on their fridge and I wanna know what I'm up against.:sick

[MuseMama]

It makes me so angry when people expect behavior of children that adults aren't even capable of.

There's nothing in the Bible about that. And I think it's safe to assume that the Bible was written to adults, and not children. It might say to have a cheerful heart in all circumstances. but to do that you need a great deal more mental and emotional maturity than a child has.

That! Exactly! This kind of thinking turns kids into mindless automatons who act without question simply because the parent is in a position of authority. I don't want that for my kids.

I want my children to speak to me respectfully. To encourage that, I speak to them respectfully and I stop conversations if they fail to do the same. I don't just demand it, I teach it.

I want my children to question what they're told, and do it because it's right, because they want to please me, and because they're part of a family. I want them to learn to be Bereans and test all things against scripture.

I want my children to learn that while what they feel is important, how they act on those feelings is even more important. Doing the right thing may not always make them feel cheerful. But if it's the right thing to do and they're going to do it, try to have a good attitude, and do it well. Cultivating a good attitude will make even the things you don't want to do, more pleasant.

"A cheerful heart is good medicine,
but a crushed spirit dries up the bones."
Proverbs 17:22

I want them to become people of character, but also people of depth. Their faith has got to be based on finding the answers to the deepest questions in the One True God who strengthens us. It can't be just because I told them to be Christians.

I think the kind of obedience demanded by these types of lectures is shallow, and will serve to frustrate both children who can't meet those expectations, and parents who will blame themselves for their children's failure.

Grace and mercy aren't just words to God, and they can't be for us as parents, either.

/soapbox.

[April G]

:shiver My mom used to make me say "Sure! I'd be HAPPY to!" in this syrupy horrible sugar coated tone anytime she told me to do something. And then would spank me if I didn't do it cheerfully. :shiver SO wrong... I grew up stuffing my real feelings because I never learned to express real emotions in a safe way. If you can't be real at home, where can you be real?! I determined long before I found GBD or knew it existed that my children would be allowed to "feel" and I would give them a safe place to feel their emotions, good and bad. :yes

[Karen]

So much good stuff here. I do not everything I am supposed to do every day with the utmost cheerfulness. Somethings have to just be endured. I try to have a positive attitude but I am not going to fake cheerfulness. I do not expect my children to do so either. I want to reach my children's hearts and teach them authentic living and loving. I do not want to have those children that look "just so perfect" on the outside.

My two year old says please, thank you, etc all the time. My more punitive friends are amazed and can't figure out my secret. I don't them I speak to her (my daughter) that way. I don't think they believe that is it.

[ArmsOfLove]

Ezzo, Pearl et al all spank until this, but the phrase First Time Obedience is, I believe, rooted in Ezzo. Those are the circles I first heard it in.

It's not Biblical. It's controlling and emotionally manipulative :(

[MuseMama]

Ezzo, Pearl et al all spank until this, but the phrase First Time Obedience is, I believe, rooted in Ezzo. Those are the circles I first heard it in.

It's not Biblical. It's controlling and emotionally manipulative :(

The Pearl's teach it, too. Switch them if they don't obey the first time. Giving them more than one chance teaches them to be obstinate. *insert my eyes rolling here*

[SilverMoon]

By no means am I defending or agreeing, but this came up in today's sermon and I took notes and saw how people connect the dots with this theology.

Today my pastor mentioned Children's Catechism. His thought process started with number 21 in his sermon. I found this on the webs (italicized portion isn't part of the catechism, it's the explanation for the parent):
21. Q: In what condition did God make Adam and eve? A: He made them holy and happy.

We must teach our children that God does not create a mess—Adam and Eve were made perfect, without sin, without anything around to hurt them, like bees, spiders, etc. The question emphasizes that they were “holy and happy.” “Holy” meant they did not sin and always pleased God, and “happy” meant they always had fun and did not lack for anything.
�� Verse to memorize: Genesis 2:7

Then he said the opposite would be found in number 35:
35. Q: What happened to all mankind when Adam sinned? A: All of us are born in sin and misery.
Now that Adam sinned, all of us are born with his first sin, “his strike out,” not all the other sins he committed the rest of his life. When the Bible says the sins of the fathers will not be imputed to the children (Jeremiah 31:29-30), that of course is true. Only Adam’s original or first sin becomes ours, not the other sins he committed later. Once Adam had sinned, the covenant was broken, so none of his other sins are imputed to us. One proof that we inherit Adam’s sin is this: If babies were born without sin, they would not die; since they die, they must be born with Adam’s sin.
�� Verse to memorize: Psalm 51:5

And, when we are striving to be more like Christ, that's transformation and sanctification so (and pastor wants the catechism to add 'and happy' here, after holy):

51. Q: What is sanctification? A: It is God’s work in making sinners holy in heart and conduct. (Must see Question 50.)
We sometimes think that we are the author of our holiness, or at least that we are in control of the process. We think we can turn the spigot of grace on or off, but any hindrance in applying grace to us has been removed by the merits of Christ. It is God the Holy Spirit who applies this grace. We do cooperate with it, but necessarily so. Consider these two verses:
12 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure (Philippians 2:12-13).
Verse 12 does not mean to work “for” your salvation—that would be a works salvation—but to live it out; that is, work it out. That is the command given, our cooperation or our part, if you will. But the reason for the command is given in verse 13: it is God who produces in us both the willing and the working. We can do the command in v 12 because God is supplying the grace in v 13.


When you mentioned cheerful obedience I was reminded of this catechism question. I'm not saying I agree, but finding a link to another source that claims the Bible says we're supposed to be happy when we obey. So, I guess the thinking is to be holy and like Christ, we have to be cheerful (or happy). :sick And of course he had to start the sermon with some rod verses from Proverbs, specifically the one I believe is not to be taken literally (strike with a rod and he will surely not die).

[mwwr]

I'm pretty sure Jesus was not *happy* in Gesthemane when He obeyed his Father. Somethings that are right are NOT cheery.

And I agree that it is hypocritical to expect something of our children that *we* can't do.

Emotions are not right or wrong. They just *are*.

[ArmsOfLove]

and “happy” meant they always had fun and did not lack for anything. This is not Scriptural. The verse cited is about them being created and having the breath of life breathed into their nostrils.

A: All of us are born in sin and misery.
Also, not Scriptural :shrug3

***ETA I know you weren't arguing the point, I'm just arguing with the catechism :shifty

[gardenfreshmama]

I agree with all of the above posts. Thanks for your responses and thoughts. It irks me so much when people blindly say, "it's in the Bible," or "God says___" without any specific scripture to back it up. Two or three of the girls in that MOPS small group had commented, "Well, it says in the Bible to do all things cheerfully," to which I replied, "I'd just like to look at the verse for myself and determine the context and audience for which it was written." When I probed further I could get no specific verse from them, and more in-depth study on my part has revealed that no verse actually exists.

PEOPLE ARE SO BRAINWASHED!!! Urg! :banghead :bheart

[cbmk4]

I can only add an "I agree" to all of you who are rubbed the wrong way by the nonsense approach that requires our children to stuff all their emotions and opinions. While I don't enjoy being talked back to in a rude way by my children, I am (finally, after having 4 children over a 12 year span) learning to help them rephrase their opinions in a respectful manner. I want them to tell me what they think even if it's disagreeing with me. Of course, there are times I expect compliance (for some reason I prefer this term to obedience) but I try not to make a demand on the kids that is not important and that I don't plan to carry through.

How emotionally unhealthy to teach our kids that they need to pretend to feel one thing when in fact they may feel the opposite.

[Aerynne]

I don't expect my kids to obey cheerfully, and certainly don't want any fake smiles. But I do expect them to do it without complaining, stomping, slamming doors, pouting, mouthing off, etc. To me doing something with a terrible attitude is not good enough for obedience. While I don't expect first time obedience (a little dialogue is okay) if I make it clear to them that this is a non-negotiable, I do expect them to quit arguing and do it, if not cheerfully, at least not in a manner meant to convey their anger to me about having to do it. They can express their displeasure in respectful ways if they want to, though, and I help them with phrasing if they need it.

[ChristinaL]

It is so interesting that you posted this- because a lecture (at MOPS) about discipline and obedience was what caused me to search the web for a community such as this one.

The speaker was a therapist who worked with children and families- and he went on and on about how his parents had done it the right way when they raised him. He described in depth an incident when he was 13 and had a "bad attitude" and his father told him that he had two minutes to change that attitude or else he was going to get spanked. And so he changed his attitude- and so it was implied that this is what we should do with our kids to make them obedient.

(Never mind how strange it was that he was proudly sharing with a room full of mom's of preschoolers that he was still being spanked at 13.)

So then in our small group at MOPS-most of the moms seemed to feel it was a fantastic lecture. When I pointed out that young preschoolers especially cannot be expected to change their feelings and emotions, and indeed many times "bad behavior" is just a developmental stage- one of the moms told me that I needed to remember that children are born in sin. Ugh!

[MuseMama]

Christina, I think the distinction that we make that spanking parents don't is that it's not just a developmental stage, but a teaching opportunity. We know that normal doesn't mean acceptable, but we work with our children where they are to teach them better.

Those who advocate spanking as the end-all-be-all of discipline see it as sin which must be punished. Of course, the theological issues with that are many, but more than that, it misses the opportunity to teach something deeper. How sad for them and for their children. Ours not only get discipline, but they learn trust, too.

[Marsha]

I don't expect my kids to obey cheerfully, and certainly don't want any fake smiles. But I do expect them to do it without complaining, stomping, slamming doors, pouting, mouthing off, etc. To me doing something with a terrible attitude is not good enough for obedience. While I don't expect first time obedience (a little dialogue is okay) if I make it clear to them that this is a non-negotiable, I do expect them to quit arguing and do it, if not cheerfully, at least not in a manner meant to convey their anger to me about having to do it. They can express their displeasure in respectful ways if they want to, though, and I help them with phrasing if they need it.

I totally agree with this! I was reading this whole thread, going "guys if you lived at my house with the HORRIBLE moaning, groaning, screaming, fit throwing, stomping, talking back and so on at the mildest requests, you might think about having BE CHEERFUL as a rule, too." LOL

I guess it's a fine line. but I'll be honest with you, I do think more people could ACT cheerful, I dont' think theres a reason for taking your bad mood out on other people personally.

[MuseMama]

So, I guess the thinking is to be holy and like Christ, we have to be cheerful (or happy). :sick

I'm reminded of a song we used to sing at church (my dad was the choir director) called "They Cast Their Nets In Galilee" and it said:

They cast their nets in Galilee Just off the hills of brown;
Such happy, simple fisherfolk, Before the Lord came down.

Contented, peaceful fishermen, Before they ever knew
The peace of God that filled their hearts Brimful, and broke them too.

Young John who trimmed the flapping sail, Homeless, in Patmos died.
Peter, who hauled the teeming net, Head-down was crucified.

The peace of God, it is no peace, But strife closed in the sod.
Yet, brothers, pray for but one thing—The marvelous peace of God.

I don't think we're promised happiness with obedience or faithfulness. We're only promised that we will never walk alone, and that in eternity we will have paradise.

I like the proverb I mentioned earlier, because I think it teaches that cultivating a good attitude and a "cheerful heart" makes all of life's tasks easier. But it can't be forced.

Just my $0.02. :)