I'm confused about the definition of the word "alternative"

[Dana Joy]

In several places it has been said that this is a board for parenting alternatively. But how are we defining alternative? The definition is "different then the conventions." But plenty of things we advocate as "alternative" are not all that alternative at all.
Breastfeeding rates for 0 to 6mo are over 70% in the US.
Circumcision rates are below 50% in the Western US, and 57% in the nation as a whole.
Spanking is not reccomended by any major psychological, child development, or medical group anywhere.
Bonding and attachment are at the top of the list for most parents goals for their small children.
Google has 15 pages of babywearing vendors.
Large Chain stores are now carrying all in one cloth diapers.
So tell me how you think we as AP parents are "alternative?"

[DoulaClara]

I think it's because of a couple of things- for one thing, I can't really find a lot of people IRL who breastfeed for longer than a few months (forget about past one year), who consciously avoid punitive parenting, who do not circumcise, etc. Maybe I'll accidentally stumble over the rare person who does one or two, but unless I've met them via this board, I don't know people IRL who do this.

For another thing- I think statistics based on ideals are different from the statistics of actual events. People could answer surveys based on what they think is the "right" answer, but then consider themselves the exception for whatever reason.

Perhaps it's just where I live/ have lived, but the combination of Christianity with all of the above is considered an extreme anomaly in every place I've actually paid attention. I think I consider it "alternative" because most friends and relatives consider me to be an interesting, quirky, "Isn't she different?" kind of a person- especially when it comes to pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding/delaying solids/avoiding certain pseudo-foods, non-vaxing, parenting, and schooling. (ETA: for clarification, I live in MI, and have lived in IL and NY)

[Serafine]

Speaking only for myself - "alternative" choices for me are those that go against the cultural norms I am exposed to.

For example:

I live in the midwest. Circumcision rates are still quite high here, as are vaccination rates. BF may happen up to 6 months or a year, but very rarely beyond that in this area. Spanking and/or punitive measures are common in this state and in my particular area.

While bonding and attachment might be at the top of "the list" for most parents' goals - that does NOT mean that the practices they use are in line with those goals (crib-sleeping in separate rooms once past the bassinet stage, CIO, and other things).

So, if I lived in certain areas of the pacific northwest or California - my choices might be more mainstream for that area...but here...definitely considered alternative and freaky.

[Dana Joy]

I guess I just have had the opposite experience, maybe there is something to be said for living in the most left state. Until I became a Christian, I never met a parent that spanked. My parents did not spank us. Not one of my very large group of friends spank. At least 80% breastfeed. No one bats an eyelash at a child's penile integraty. I see at least one person a day using a sling when in stores / bank etc. At school the number goes up to at least 5 a day.
I agree that the combination of Christian with these things is more rare, and why I love GCM. :gcm But the choices themselves seem pretty mainstream around here.

[hopeforchange]

I guess I just have had the opposite experience, maybe there is something to be said for living in the most left state. Until I became a Christian, I never met a parent that spanked. My parents did not spank us. Not one of my very large group of friends spank. At least 80% breastfeed. No one bats an eyelash at a child's penile integraty. I see at least one person a day using a sling when in stores / bank etc. At school the number goes up to at least 5 a day.
I agree that the combination of Christian with these things is more rare, and why I love GCM. :gcm But the choices themselves seem pretty mainstream around here.

maybe i should move to california! :shifty

i've lived in the south all my life and most of the things i do as a parent (and even as a person) are considered alternative. :shrug3 i don't do them to BE alternative, they just are.

in the deep south (north and south carolina and georgia), where i grew up and lived until 1.5 years ago, spanking/yelling/degrading children *in public* is the norm and no one bats at eye at it. it's definitely taught as the godly way to raise children. now, i was homeschooled, so a lot of the ppl i grew up around breastfed, even toddlers, but they were still extremely punitive. other than the ppl i met at LLL, most ppl i knew vaxed and circ'ed, etc. i didn't know anyone who used a midwife or had a natural birth.

in TX, most of that is the same, but the punitive parenting is not so open here, not that i've run into. just this past week, i heard, for the first time since living here, a mom threaten to spank her children. most of my friends here are from LLL or GCM. :) but the ppl i know at church follow GKGW, leave 2 week old babies to go to Christmas parties, and wean around 6 to 9 months. :shrug3 i definitely don't talk about vaxing or circ'ing with them.

so yeah, i definitely feel alternative at my church. it's not usually a good feeling.

[megmac]

I think it is entirely dependent on your area.

So using some of your examples

Overall, only 35 per cent of UK babies are being exclusively breastfed at one week, 21 per cent at six weeks, 7 per cent at four months and 3 per cent at five months. So for me still BF a 2 year old is very unusual.

I only know of one other parent that CD.

I still get odd looks when babywearing.

Spanking does happen here, far more then people talk about. Many people consider a smack on the hand a normal way to discipline children.:shrug3

I know one other person that co-sleeps/has a family bed.

I know one other person who homebirths in our area.

And I'm certianly not hiding under a rock :giggle I know lots of parents here.

So I consider myself alternative because the way I parent/live is considered alternative in my community

[Psyche]

Speaking only for myself - "alternative" choices for me are those that go against the cultural norms I am exposed to.




This 10000%

The US is a BIG country so over all while the bf rates might be 70% or higher in some areas, in others they are nil. And that is just breastfeeding, not exclusive breastfeeding. They may be counting a child as bf if he is getting one boob feed a day.

You'll see people parenting differently in Portland, Oregon than you will in rural Kentucky.

Even in my area, where there is what I deem a large AP population, people comment on the fact that they have NEVER seen the baby carrier I am carrying Jon in and wish they'd had one, why don't more people do it, yada, yada, yada.

Its remarkable when I see another woman nursing in public.

I come from a large congregation and I'm one of a handful that nurse passed one year, don't CIO, co sleep, baby wear.

Examining food choices while shopping at the conventional grocery store, I'm one of a very few who reaches for the cage free eggs, didn't buy the apples that were on sale at a "great price" b/c they weren't organic.

I'm one of a very small minority who has an uncircumcised son and an even smaller minority who had a son circumcised, regretted it and didn't have the youngest one circ.

And really, some of the choices are so broad, its impossible to define what is alternative and what isn't. If they co sleep when the child has a nighmare, is that alternative? What about those that co sleep half the time? What about those who co sleep only the first few months? The statistics generally don't delineate in that much of detail, so while (throwing a number out there) 65% of parents claim to co sleep, what does that mean really b/c I bet my definition would be way different from the couple sitting next to us at a restaurant. Or if I interviewed someone at Meijer vs Whole Foods.

PS: just about everyone I know IRL would flip the heck out that I took the placenta home let alone encapsulated it. And most flipped that I was having a VBAC rather than scheduling a repeat C.

[joyful mama]

I guess I just have had the opposite experience, maybe there is something to be said for living in the most left state. Until I became a Christian, I never met a parent that spanked. My parents did not spank us. Not one of my very large group of friends spank. At least 80% breastfeed. No one bats an eyelash at a child's penile integraty. I see at least one person a day using a sling when in stores / bank etc. At school the number goes up to at least 5 a day.
I agree that the combination of Christian with these things is more rare, and why I love GCM. :gcm But the choices themselves seem pretty mainstream around here. I think where we live colors our perspective a ton :yes

[Rabbit]

1n 1998, the breastfeeding rate on day of birth was 3% in Memphis. In 2009, it's made it to just over 50%. Again, only for day of birth. 10% make it to 6 months.

Child abuse is rampant. Spanking is the norm.

76% of the newborn babies are circumcised. You can look at this site for more state stats: http://www.mgmbill.org/statistics.htm

[MaiMama]

Don't you know, Mommy, "California" is the definition of Alternative?!?
:giggle

[DoulaClara]

Don't you know, Mommy, "California" is the definition of Alternative?!?
:giggle

:-/ Unless you want a VBAC in a hospital... and then it gets weird...

[ArmsOfLove]

:think I don't think that AP is necessarily alternative. There are very mainstream people who engage in this or that part of AP, or even all of it, and are not alternative. GCM is about supporting those who engage in AP and have a flavor of alternative.

I would define "alternative" as "willing to question". Often when someone questions, whatever it is, they will choose the alternative to what is typically offered. Where you live will definitely affect what is generally offered. Statistics of averages are so skewed when done across cultural and financial lines among others. For instance, if 100% of women in CA, Oregon and Washington breastfeed for 6 months they could nearly drag the entire population of America's statistic up to near 50% ;)

[MaiMama]

Statistics of averages are so skewed when done across cultural and financial lines among others. For instance, if 100% of women in CA, Oregon and Washington breastfeed for 6 months they could nearly drag the entire population of America's statistic up to near 50% ;)

Yeah, when I was researching circumcision & told mom the circ rate in Texas (where we live) is about 50%, she asked, "Well, isn't that the brown half?" :jawdrop :mad :sick I believe she was referring to the large hispanic population.

[Aerynne]

None of the people I know IRL spank, and most breastfeed, and while people I know don't mind using slings, etc, as an alternative to strollers the idea of wearing your baby like an item of clothing (for hours on end, even around the house) is strange among those I know.

When I joined this board, I was more alternative than I am now. I haven't changed. There are more AP people in the US now than even a few years ago, I think.

There's more to it than the differences you listed, though. On what other board are a bunch of other women planning homebirths? Using herbs instead of medication? How about trying to live off the grid, being vegetarian, cloth diapering, practicing elimination communication, co-sleeping, not expecting babies to sleep through the night? While I know lots of bf moms in real life, few of them bf as long as I do or as often as I do. While I do have IRL friends who do these natural things, few of them are Christian, and these friends are still considered alternative by most people. Most people around me seem to do all the mainstream stuff.

[Dana Joy]

Don't you know, Mommy, "California" is the definition of Alternative?!?
:giggle

:-/ Unless you want a VBAC in a hospital... and then it gets weird...

HA! Don't get me started on that one in 1999 with my first hospital VBAC no one batted an eyelash, I wasn't even naturally minded at that point, but all 5 of the docs in the practice I was at wanted me to at least try to VBAC. In 2004 I had to shop for a obgyn that would do it, then at 36 weeks I had to switch hospitals and fight tooth and nail for that VBAC.

If alternative is the norm in California, does that mean I am part of the mainstream now?

[ShangriLewis]

Are you doing it to be cool?

[Dana Joy]

I don't do a darned thing in my life to be cool. I'm the furthest from cool a person can get. :glasses

[ShangriLewis]

Than you aren't mainstream by my definition. To me mainstream is when you are just following along with the other fish in the stream.

Do you mean alternative for the board in general? It's in the "sub-title"/ When I look at the board, I do see this board as a group of women who tend to be alternative in Christian circles. To me it has nothing to do with the rest of society.

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

Bandits is on. I used to live in Petaluma..and you aren't helping me with my missing right now.

[brown eyed girl]

Until I became a Christian, I never met a parent that spanked. My parents did not spank us. Not one of my very large group of friends spank.

I actually just blogged something along these lines.....



in TX, most of that is the same, but the punitive parenting is not so open here, not that i've run into. just this past week, i heard, for the first time since living here, a mom threaten to spank her children. most of my friends here are from LLL or GCM. :) but the ppl i know at church follow GKGW, leave 2 week old babies to go to Christmas parties, and wean around 6 to 9 months. :shrug3 i definitely don't talk about vaxing or circ'ing with them.

so yeah, i definitely feel alternative at my church. it's not usually a good feeling.

My sil lives in Lewisville and she used MWs, breastfeeds long-term, has 4 dd's, homeschools. But she did schedule her babies and spank them as she "trained them Biblically" so :shrug3

Down here in Austin, things are much more like California.

[mommylove]

If there was a crunch calculator, my town would be among the top in the nation. :giggle

However, as of 2005, it also had the fewest number of churches for a city our size in America.

That's where I'm an anomaly, being a crunchy Christian.

Most of my friends are moms my age who I've met at one of my 2 moms' group, which coincidentally, meet at the 2 largest churches in town. So I've got plenty of Christian friends, but none of them are crunchy. If we didn't love our church so much, we'd be searching for a crunchy church, but we're pretty plugged in right now.

That's why I love GCM.

[Heather Micaela]

I guess I just have had the opposite experience, maybe there is something to be said for living in the most left state. Until I became a Christian, I never met a parent that spanked. My parents did not spank us. Not one of my very large group of friends spank. At least 80% breastfeed. No one bats an eyelash at a child's penile integraty. I see at least one person a day using a sling when in stores / bank etc. At school the number goes up to at least 5 a day.
I agree that the combination of Christian with these things is more rare, and why I love GCM. :gcm But the choices themselves seem pretty mainstream around here.
Not as much in OC though :shrug3

Many parents I knew growing up had spanking in the very bottom of their tool box but tried not to use it. Meanwhile most christians I know still think it is good for the ol' Dobson "deliberate disobedience"

And for other parents I know in CA (Not counting other GCMers)

Most parents I know start by breastfeeding but rarely keep it up long term

Very few cloth diaper. None are vegan. Many still circumcise. Most use a crib and a separate room even if they don't CIO

What I DO see here is a lot more people questioning convential medicine and the Standard American Diet. So not vaxing and avoiding HFCS and other things is common.

And the other thing that is mainstream, at least here, is baby wearing and even NOT using a bjorn to do it.

[tofufoofoo]

I just wanted to say that in my everyday adventures with DD, meeting new moms in my area, and etc., the way I do things is VERY alternative. Maybe it has to do with where I live (backwards, middle-of-nowhere PA). I have gotten very negative feedback about breastfeeding and babywearing especially. I never see ANYONE bf'ing in public here, EVER. I do see babies eating though (bottles) so I know that it isn't just for lack of hungry babies :giggle

The women in my bible study are mostly young moms, and they think I am nuts :giggle Esp. the way I plan to discipline, and my lack of "training" DD. I know what they say about me and I am chalked up to being a "crazy hippie" more or less. I've gotten only negative feedback from older ladies about breastfeeding, babywearing, cloth diapers, night time parenting.... No way is it the norm... not in my daily world anyway :shrug3

[Two Little Birds]

It is interesting how location plays such a bit part into this. Here I am not totally different from other mamas. There is a really big "alternative movement" here. People feel drawn to live natural lifestyles here and that includes parenting. The biggest non-alternative group I've found is definately in the church.

[saturnfire16]

HA! Don't get me started on that one in 1999 with my first hospital VBAC no one batted an eyelash, I wasn't even naturally minded at that point, but all 5 of the docs in the practice I was at wanted me to at least try to VBAC. In 2004 I had to shop for a obgyn that would do it, then at 36 weeks I had to switch hospitals and fight tooth and nail for that VBAC.

If alternative is the norm in California, does that mean I am part of the mainstream now?


Depends on where in Ca we're talking about. I just went for a week long visit to north eastern CA last week. That's where I grew up. All week I didn't see a single person babywearing or NIP. I know from the mom's group that I was in when I lived there that most people don't question vaxing, circ, etc and I was the only one in the group to babywear and NIP or nurse past one year (I did meet ONE other non-Christian mom who did that stuff). There's one small healthfood store in the whole town and half of what they have is supplements not even real food. There are no midwives for 80 miles in any direction. There is a decent sized homeschooling population, I think.

[mwwr]

I have NEVER seen cloth diapers in a store.

[blessedwithboys]

:shrug3 I have to agree with Dana. I don't attend LLL because ALL of the moms at my church bible study (which meets on the same day as LLL) breastfeed, so I might as well be at church. ;) Slings are pretty normal, and I am far from the only cloth diapering mom in my circle. Non spanking/little spanking is the norm. Punitive parenting is frowned upon. If anything, my community is a bit on the permissive side. Careful consideration of vax is the norm.

I do not live in CA. I live in the conservative midwest. ;)