Do you think primitive co-sleeping/nursing mamas are up all night long too?

[Calliope]

Seriously. I want to know. My instincts tell me co-sleeping/nursing is natural. My ideals tell me that the family bed is meaningful to a child's emotional development. But my body is exhausted and my intellect tells me that I am out of my mind.

I feel like there is some missing element here. Surely. SURELY, primitive mothers do not suffer from sleep deprivation the same way we do. There is something in a modern culture that must make our sleeping situations just not like theirs and we are all trying to fit a round primitive co-sleeping peg in a square western modern hole.

Now, if I could only figure out what it is. :think

[zak]

Did you get Our Babies, Ourselves yet? I bet your answer is there. :hug I've stalled on that book for now (again). :bag I'm busy with some Ames & Ilg and Sears ATM. ;)

[Dana Joy]

Well I don't know about in other cultures- but I did not suffer much sleep deprivation co-sleeping and nursing.

[SouthPaw]

do you think they would be going to bed earlier, maybe?

[MarynMunchkins]

:shrug Honestly, I find myself more tired while pregnant than nursing a baby. At least with a baby I can lie down and nurse - while pregnant I have to get up to pee. ;)

[Calliope]

Did you get Our Babies, Ourselves yet? I bet your answer is there. :hug I've stalled on that book for now (again). :bag I'm busy with some Ames & Ilg and Sears ATM. ;)


Oh. Yeah. I forgot that you mentioned it. :shifty


Well I don't know about in other cultures- but I did not suffer much sleep deprivation co-sleeping and nursing.


You kid didn't become a nursaholic insomniac? What's your secret?



do you think they would be going to bed earlier, maybe?


:think My working theory is that has something to do with how they spend their day. I'm thinking along the lines of the Continuum Concept. Maybe if my kid was running around on his own getting into all kinds of adventure and mischief on this own and wearing himself out and I was free to do my thing all day long stopping only to nurse, maybe nights would be really different.

[Raspberries]

I think the key thing we're missing is a close knit community of women who live with or around us. I bet in previous years when that was the case, when a mama was exhausted, grandma, aunt, sister, friend, mom, etc. were right there and able to help.

[Dana Joy]

Well I don't know about in other cultures- but I did not suffer much sleep deprivation co-sleeping and nursing.


You kid didn't become a nursaholic insomniac? What's your secret?

Nursaholic- :yes Insomniac- :no
(and it wasn't until I decided to cut the nursaholic off that I had sleep issues. We waiting till 30 months to night wean, and it was a crummy YEAR of sleep issues as we tried to find the right balance.)

[tempus vernum]

Well, primitive cultures typically let mama rest in bed while other women take care of their children when baby is first born so they just nap when baby naps. ANd if they had a rough night as they get older, I am pretty sure they just do that again

:hugheart

I too slept fine while bfing and cosleeping. It's when they didn't want to sleep at all that I was sleep deprived :yawn :hugheart

I just hit post and raspberries had replied and said what I am saying in a different way :giggle :tu

[filmgirl2911]

I think the key thing we're missing is a close knit community of women who live with or around us. I bet in previous years when that was the case, when a mama was exhausted, grandma, aunt, sister, friend, mom, etc. were right there and able to help.


I agree - I think this has a lot to do with how things worked before our "enlightened" era.

I, too, suffer from a baby whose co-sleeping / nursing can be anything but restful. She has fits and starts with how long her sleep stretches last. I know, Grace, that you recently posted about your baby boy tossing and turning most / all of the night. I chimed in that we were experiencing similar things. I'm usually happy for two hour stretches; and I'm happy if she'll nurse back to sleep. But the past few nights, it's only been me getting up and rocking her for 15 or so minutes at a time to get her back into a deeper sleep.

I cannot help but think, too, that there is something about what we expect of ourselves / our lives on a daily basis - what we need to accomplish, whether it's inside or outside the home - that makes us more tired and less able to just be during the day. Just a thought . . .

[Naked Camper]

i know one that that really helped me to no longer be so exhausted with night nursing is to put the alarm clock away where I cannot see it at night. If I couldn't see the clock and see that it had only been 15 minutes since the last time he nursed, it made me feel like I was getting more rest. As soon as I stopped worrying about it (figured this out with DS1) I have not had a problem feeling exhausted since. DS2 nurses almost the entire night most nights and I still wake up feeling rested. :shrug When I was looking at the clock I'd find myself getting angry and thinking more than I should have been - making the night less restfull.

so as far as primitive cultures (I've thought about this before too) they don't have alarm clocks. :wink

[Calliope]

I moved my alarm clock when R was about 6 months old for that very reason. IDK, maybe this was a bad thread to start on a poor night's sleep. R was up at 11:30 last night and wouldn't settle down again until almost 3 - considering he went to bed a 7:30 and had three hours of napping that day, I have no idea what the problem was. Just doesn't seem "natural" to me. Co-sleeping and nursing all night long don't bother me usually. It's the baby that won't stop thrashing about and preventing me from ever achieving deep sleep that's killing me. :/

[Naked Camper]

:hugheart i can tell you're exhausted Grace!!

Have you tried anything like calm forte, rescue remedy or chamomile for your DS? I know he's been notoriously a poor sleeper, but is he teething and therefore more restless right now? Would white noise in the room help? Is he cold/hot and therefore restless? I'm sure you've gone over these things in the past, but sometimes it helps to think through the possibilities again.

:hugheart - any hopes you can snag a nap today?

[jewelmcjem]

do you think they would be going to bed earlier, maybe?


I would think they would have to go to bed when the sun went down or shortly after. Personally, that would add at least 5 hrs to my sleep cycle in the winter.

[Calliope]

I'm thinking about getting some Calms Forte. RR and Chamomile don't seem to do anything. Neither does Motrin. :/ :shifty I don't want to, but I am seriously thinking about asking out pedi if there is something *wrong* with him. He is teething, but the level of restlessness and discomfort seems excessive. He's tough. Doesn't cry at shots or blood draws, thought his allergy test tickled but this teething must hurt something terrific because no amount of anything seems to take away the pain. I feel like he needs Vicodin or Percocet or something. :shifty

[jewelmcjem]

I moved my alarm clock when R was about 6 months old for that very reason. IDK, maybe this was a bad thread to start on a poor night's sleep. R was up at 11:30 last night and wouldn't settle down again until almost 3 - considering he went to bed a 7:30 and had three hours of napping that day, I have no idea what the problem was. Just doesn't seem "natural" to me. Co-sleeping and nursing all night long don't bother me usually. It's the baby that won't stop thrashing about and preventing me from ever achieving deep sleep that's killing me. :/


This has *got* to be a developmental milestone time or something -- after my last post on your other thread, Fi was tossing and turning, off & on nursing all night last night!!! I'm :yawn right here with you, only I"m at work.

[zak]

:hug2 We are in the midst of hard and heavy teething troubles. Poor Fly has a calous on his finger from sucking it so hard/much. :( The only thing that buys me more than 45 minutes is Chamomilla and teething tablets. On occasion I use Motrin. :bag :yawn I feel ya, Grace. Really. :yes2

I'd bet that both our guys will be walking in the next 4 weeks or so. :yes Hopefully THEN we'll see a big change in sleep! :hug

[bananacake]

I'm totally sleep-deprived too, if it makes you feel any better. Having a quart of green smoothie daily as well as getting on a good vitamin regime has saved my life.

[Blue Aurora]

Ds nursed lots and lots at night until he was almost 3 but we didn't have the night waking on top of it. I can imagine how exhausting that would be. I think primitive mama's probably had similar nights but their days were in a community so in my mind it would have been easier.

[Calliope]

I'd bet that both our guys will be walking in the next 4 weeks or so. :yes Hopefully THEN we'll see a big change in sleep! :hug


I'm thinking that will be about the time frame. :yes2 I can't wait until he can walk and run off some of his energy. In the meantime (tiny mom brag here), he's so talkative that he even talks in his sleep. We counted how many words he knows yesterday and it was over 80! :jawdrop

[bananacake]

I can't wait until he can walk and run off some of his energy. In the meantime (tiny mom brag here), he's so talkative that he even talks in his sleep. We counted how many words he knows yesterday and it was over 80! :jawdrop


That's amazing! Bear only has like 3 words.

[crunchymum]

:hug2

my perfect, sleeps-and-doesn't-barely-nurse-at-night baby has done a complete 180, so i hear ya. :hug2 i do think it's teething related for us, i'm going to try more homeopathics.

as for the thrashing, for my little guy it's usually a full bladder. if i can rouse myself enough to put him on the potty, he usually settles down for a good stretch. (that's a whole 'nother post, my feelings as an EC failure... :shifty )

[Naked Camper]

I feel like he needs Vicodin or Percocet or something. :shifty
:giggle


:hugheart

[SouthPaw]

i just looked it up and apparently in some primitive cultures, between 1-2 years of age the dad takes over some cosleeping (he sleeps separately from mom) and if the baby wakes up, he feeds him some chewed up food from his mouth

so uh..... there's a thought :lol

[jewelmcjem]

I can't wait until he can walk and run off some of his energy. In the meantime (tiny mom brag here), he's so talkative that he even talks in his sleep. We counted how many words he knows yesterday and it was over 80! :jawdrop


That's amazing! Bear only has like 3 words.


Oh my goodness! We're on the other end of the spectrum (which is funny b/c typically girls and boys are opposite on this). Fiona is running, climbing, and generally always into something she should not be. But she only says mama and dada and a warped version of Duncan that sounds like Duh-doo. I'd be worried if I didn't read here a lot, ALL my others spoke more than this at this age, even the boy. But her eyes are very intelligent and she very obviously is grasping most of what we say so I figure she'll talk when she's ready.

[Proverbs31]

apparently this whole idea of anyone (including adults) sleeping so solidly is fairly new... http://www.ny times.com/2007/11/18/magazine/18sleep-t.html?pagewanted=5&sq=sleep&st=cse&scp=3

so, I think probably yes to your question...but not just the mamas

[Calliope]

as for the thrashing, for my little guy it's usually a full bladder. if i can rouse myself enough to put him on the potty, he usually settles down for a good stretch. (that's a whole 'nother post, my feelings as an EC failure... :shifty )


Yes, that is it sometimes. The problem is pottying him wakes him up all the way and then he doesn't want to go back to sleep. :/


i just looked it up and apparently in some primitive cultures, between 1-2 years of age the dad takes over some cosleeping (he sleeps separately from mom) and if the baby wakes up, he feeds him some chewed up food from his mouth

so uh..... there's a thought :lol


:think I should try this.

[ArmsOfLove]

I really believe that our culture is moving at a very unnatural pace and it's not just babies who don't sleep well--look at all the sleep disorders we have that are so not natural. I've found when we are on vacation and moving at a different pace my children often sleep better, as do I. And when we're camping and everyone is getting tired all day and sleeping all night it's great.

[Radosny Matka]

Yes, I think primatives are up with their babies. However, they don't have work, and cooking, and cleaning, and 100% total child care, and driving, and dr. appointments, and, and, and, and, and... They live in groups where they all help take care of all the children. They all do the work. They get help. Something that we as humans simply do not get enough of in our current societies. So, primatives may be up at night with their babies, but they also can rest during the day, which we cannot.

[blessedwithboys]

I've wondered this too. Night nursing was fine until after a year old, then it made my boys insomniac nurseaholics. :(

[Mama Calidad]

Just from spending time at the ILs, life is quieter. No phone. No cell phone. No internet. No television. IME, those things all just stir up the brain and make me more exhausted.

They work HARD, though. MIL, DH and my SILs were talking about how they'd walk to the top of the mountain everyday to do laundry and get drinking water. The kids were outside all day in the fresh air working and playing (or riding in the sling as the case may be).

There's lots of family around and the town is considered safe. Even 3yos can be sent off to go to grandma's for a visit, so a mama who had a hard night with a baby could conceivably ship the kids off around naptime and actually lay down and sleep with the baby.

At least with my ILs there's some real sweet Christian service attitudes. When we were there when DS was a baby, I went into the bedroom to nurse him down for a nap and MIL brought me in something to drink and then closed the doors so that we could sleep. :heart

And...they're not used to things being easy. Life was never easy.

[bananacake]

Bear only has like 3 words.


Oh my goodness! We're on the other end of the spectrum (which is funny b/c typically girls and boys are opposite on this). Fiona is running, climbing, and generally always into something she should not be. But she only says mama and dada and a warped version of Duncan that sounds like Duh-doo. I'd be worried if I didn't read here a lot, ALL my others spoke more than this at this age, even the boy. But her eyes are very intelligent and she very obviously is grasping most of what we say so I figure she'll talk when she's ready.


Bear is running around like a madman as well. I'm not worried either. I can tell he understands most of what I say.

[IslandHome]

I lived in a 'primitive' society for a few months, and there's just SO many differences to how we do things. For one they tend to go to bed when it's dark, and wake up when it's light. I never had as much sleep as I did during that time. Also, they all share the care of babies and small children. I remember once seeing a baby and asking who it belonged to and was told 'it's all of ours' :)

I never found out what their night sleeping arrangements were, but know it was very casual where everyone slept. And they all slept together, so it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out a baby would be sleeping with another relative once they were past a certain age.

They worked *very* hard during the day though, but in different ways than in Western society. We have a lot more stimulus, rushing around, appointments, but more isolated lives. They had hard physical work collecting food, water and firewood, but constant human companionship and support.

(And no, new mothers didn't rest where we were. We saw one woman washing clothes the day after giving birth :/ ... and it was a very difficult three day labour in which she and the baby nearly lost their lives)

[Somertyme]

I was going to say basically the same thing as Eva. I lived in a very primitive society for about a year (pre-kids). They work hard during the days, but generally go to sleep around dark. They would sleep straight on the bamboo with just a light blanket around them. And they were up at dawn and out in the fields with the baby in a sling. Now I really wonder more about how they manage the nighttime stuff.

[arelyn]

While Sri Lanka is not primative they are big co-sleepers )often the whole family in the same room) and as far as I've seen they just don't sleep. No one!! When we stayed at local homes they would just stay up. Eventually we'd get tierd and go to sleep but often they'd still be up and then they would be at our bedroom door knocking the next morning at 4:30 or 5 with our morning tea. We'd slurp down our "bed tea", stumble out to return the cups and find the whole family up, dressed, and busy with chores. At first we thought they had stayed up waiting for us to go to bed so we would try to go to bed at a normal time. They would keep coming into our bedroom every half hour or so to bring us water and panadol or some auryuvedic tea convinced that we were sick. We tried takign naps during the day and the same thing happened. I managed to convince them we were just sleepy because of the heat. I dont know how they do it!! Of course they also have a frighteningly high heart attack rate despite a diet that should indicate otherwise.

[Havilah]

I've wondered this too. Night nursing was fine until after a year old, then it made my boys insomniac nurseaholics. :(


This has been my experience with both of my kids. I'm still not sure what to do about it! I'm not able to sleep through nursing, and if they wake more than a few times I have a very hard time getting back to sleep. :(

The first year was not a problem at all. :think

[blessedwithboys]

I've wondered this too. Night nursing was fine until after a year old, then it made my boys insomniac nurseaholics. :(


This has been my experience with both of my kids. I'm still not sure what to do about it! I'm not able to sleep through nursing, and if they wake more than a few times I have a very hard time getting back to sleep. :(

The first year was not a problem at all. :think


I know it's not especially popular, but I took it as a sign to limit night nursing and transition into night weaning. We still snuggled, and they had a sippy cup. No nursing though. Things got a lot more peaceful and everyone slept a lot more. I think that around a year was when my boys stopped being actually hungry at night- it wasn't that deep thirsty nursing that they had done for their first year.

[TrinMama]

i just looked it up and apparently in some primitive cultures, between 1-2 years of age the dad takes over some cosleeping (he sleeps separately from mom) and if the baby wakes up, he feeds him some chewed up food from his mouth

so uh..... there's a thought :lol



:lol :lol I so wish that would happen in our house!! LOL...my Little Man is HUNGRY every two or three hours. Like, belly growling hungry.


Calliope-- :hug2 one day, he will sleep. And you'll find yourself wanting to sneak in and snuggle with him in his big boy bed. In the meantime, ITU and can only offer hugs...I'm a sleep/nighttime failure.

[zak]

one day, he will sleep. And you'll find yourself wanting to sneak in and snuggle with him in his big boy bed.


Ain't that the truth? :happytears I snuggle in Reid's twin bed as often as I can. :) (This was the child who nursed and nursed and nursed and then self-weaned with SUCH ease ;) ).

[ValiantJoy07]

I havne't read all the responses yet :nails, BUT I would think people waaaay back when were more likely to go to bed with the sun and wake up at dawn with it's rising... Some thing I think most babies want to do naturally (hence the 4am/5am wake up many mornings, only avoided by nursing back down)

Though honestly I have to say I am waaaay less sleep deprived co-sleeping than I was trying to make crib sleeping work... I have found that we all sleep much better with a sidecar twin bed against our queen, some one can roll over into the twin if our figeter is bugging us. :heart

[ValiantJoy07]

I moved my alarm clock when R was about 6 months old for that very reason. IDK, maybe this was a bad thread to start on a poor night's sleep. R was up at 11:30 last night and wouldn't settle down again until almost 3 - considering he went to bed a 7:30 and had three hours of napping that day, I have no idea what the problem was. Just doesn't seem "natural" to me. Co-sleeping and nursing all night long don't bother me usually. It's the baby that won't stop thrashing about and preventing me from ever achieving deep sleep that's killing me. :/


I just wanted to share that I've found with DD when she wakes up like that it's because she got TOO much sleep during the day... I have found she needs the minimum (actually less than) of recommended sleep for her age especially when it comes to naps, other wise she is up for LONG stretches at night, it's hard that she doesn't nap that long during the day (1-1.5hours) but since I started limiting her nap time she has been a MUCH happier person and has started sleeping a lot better at night, she gets more quality sleep I think and it really has helped her mood. Every kid is different, but I just thought I'd share.

[jewelmcjem]

I figured out why Fiona was so listless -- she and Duncan both came down with croup Friday night. Hers wasn't as bad as Dunc's. They haven't had another croup attack, but both are extremely phlegmy and of course she can't really do anything about it (blow nose, clear throat, etc) so she sounds horrible. She's napping like crazy the past couple of days!

[illinoismommy]

I think its all very interesting learning how other cultures do it or how "primitive" mothers did it.

But then there is a disconnect. I don't understand why the focus on trying to be like them or live like them. For me its "oh that neat" but I don't want to sleep on the dirt in a tent and then go to the woods to go potty. Imagine being pregnant and needing to go into the woods to potty at 2am. I'll pass!

So while I think its interesting and even informative to find how the families of old did it, I don't think its necessary to emulate it. :shrug