Am I "Allowed" To Post Here????

[Ima LeShalosh]

I feel a little skittish about coming into the HSing forum because DH and I decided to go with an in home virtual academy for our son this year. We HSed him this past year (K) and he is going into 1st this year with the Arizona Virtual Academy.

You can read our story here: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=111581.0

The reason I feel a bit afraid to post in the HSing forum is because here in our little town, the AZVA parents are REALLLLLY looked down on and were kicked out of the HS support group because we are "not HSing and do not understand the struggles that "real" HSing parents face". It was a shocker and heartbreaking to hear that I could not be a part of the HSing group this year because of the "choice" I had made...so now I am kind of skittish about posting here in the HSing forum not knowing how you all feel about it. There just is not much action in the "educating Our Children" forum and I really do love to get ideas from reading this forum, because we will be supplementing DS1 education with our own curriculum....that is the great thing about AZVA...we still have that option because he is home and still under our control and not the public system.

So, is it ok to post here???

[Cheyenne]

I homeschool through a charter school as do a few other people on here that I know about. I don't see why not. I still consider myself homeschooling because my kids are at home doing all of their schoolwork. :shrug I don't put much emphasis on where the school books come from. I am the teacher and I have a lot of say about their curriculum and how and when I teach it. I don't get involved in the local homeschool groups though because I do find a bit of separation between independent homeschoolers and those who go through charters. I would love to go independent, but this is where God has us, so.... I say we face similar challenges as independent homeschoolers though there are differences. Well, that is my opinion.



Edited to clarify something.

[Hermana Linda]

:scratch Nobody is discriminated at my homeschool support group, charter school or not. Some even have one or more of their kids in public school or even their only child in school and only attend in the summer. Nobody is treated badly or asked to leave. :shrug I :heart my homeschool group. I'm sorry that not everyone has a group like mine nearby. :hug2

[ArmsOfLove]

deifnitely there is that tension within the homeschooling community and some of us feel the tension more personally than others--though in AZ so far we've got a great set up :grin

As for here and what you face--if you have your children at home and being educated under your care you are totally welcome to post in this forum :) You need encouragement in issues related to motivating children during schooltime and other issues that this would be the forum for :hug

[booboo]

I ain't got no problem with your posting here! And what Crystal said. :sillygrin

[Joanne]

You are absolutely welcome in this forum.

I *do* have some of my own opinions and political reactions to being involved with the PS system. But I think the choice you are making involves many issues directly related to homeschooling, homeschooling lifestyle and the issues involved in making education at home work.

[Ima LeShalosh]

Good deal :) Thank yas :highfive

[erinee]

My local homeschooling group had the same reaction when I asked if I would be able to be a member. I sparked the longest discussion they've ever had on their email list.

There were pretty much just two people (both board member) who gave me lecture after lecture about being involved with the public school system and letting them into your home. But more people emailed me privately to support me and let me know I would be welcome. However, when someone (not me, but an independent homeschooler) point-blank asked what their answer was on whether or not virtual charter school parents would be allowed to join the association, he just said they'd have to talk about it at the next board meeting. I never heard back about what the decision was, but they don't have to worry about it now.

I just don't know, now that it looks like I'll be homeschooling Zach on my own, whether I'll be able to go to them for support. I am pretty full of resentment right now, and they (meaning the homeschooling association board who makes decisions for the group) didn't support the virtual charter school I wanted so badly any more than the teacher's union did.

I'm sorry you don't have more support IRL, but you'll get it here, and you *know* you'll get it from me. Even though I'll probably be homeschooling Zach, Megan will probably be going to public school to give it a try, so I'll still have one foot in the public school system. Hopefully you'll find an IRL support system within the virtual school once you get started and learn of other families in your area who are doing it.

[Ima LeShalosh]

Oh Erin...How sad...I was hoping this was an isolated incident that I had to deal with. I am so sorry you were faced with the same situation...it hurts doesn't it :(

The lady that heas up our HSA is a professing Christian so I went to her in love but yet with great authority and basically let her have it from a Biblical stand point and told her what a disservice she was doing to our small community and to be encouraging the attitudes in other parents was plain wrong and Un-Godly. She apparently took my letter before the entire Association, in which they responded with conviction and changed their policy...but it was too little too late...they had already slammed us (all the AZVA parents) and the wounds were already inflicted. A pastor's wife decided to start a group for the AZVA parents last year, so now we have our own separate group...but I think the separation is a sad state and I think it is sooooo just not Biblical! It's like an us against them kind of mentality and I hate the idea of being involved in either side...but I know I will be for the sake of the clubs and activities and field trips for DS. After hearing (or reading I should say) the words....

"The choices you make today affect your tomorrow. With that in mind, we will have to deny your application for acceptance into the HSA for 2007-2008 school year because of you and your husbands choice to accept enrollment into the AZVA program. We cannot meet your needs and you cannot meet our needs because you simply will not be able to understand the time, attention and difficulties that real homeschooling parents face. We are sad that you have made a choice in a negative direction for your child."

The letter went on and on and on and was soooooo slanderous and so hurtful. I literally sat there in tears reading my email! I mean, how could one go ahead and walk into their meetings after having those horrible things said to you and after knowing truly how they feel about you and your choice??? I was kind of amused that they said later, "Oh we decided that you could join us next year if you want"....WOW!

[SueQ]

deifnitely there is that tension within the homeschooling community and some of us feel the tension more personally than others--though in AZ so far we've got a great set up :grin

As for here and what you face--if you have your children at home and being educated under your care you are totally welcome to post in this forum :) You need encouragement in issues related to motivating children during schooltime and other issues that this would be the forum for :hug

What she said. ;) :giggle

Michelle, :yes you are welcome here. :hug2 I am *so* sorry that you were hurt IRL by other homeschoolers. :hug2

[deena]

"The choices you make today affect your tomorrow. With that in mind, we will have to deny your application for acceptance into the HSA for 2007-2008 school year because of you and your husbands choice to accept enrollment into the AZVA program. We cannot meet your needs and you cannot meet our needs because you simply will not be able to understand the time, attention and difficulties that real homeschooling parents face. We are sad that you have made a choice in a negative direction for your child."



That's NUTS!!!! What the heck do they mean by "The choices you make today affect your tomorrow"?! Are they insinuating that you're ruining your kid?!?!?!?!? FOR REAL?!?!??!?!?!?!?

[Ima LeShalosh]

I think what she meant was that my choice today for AZVA has affected my ability into belonging to the HSA for next year. But yes, they do believe that we are making a HUGE mistake and that we are not doing something that is beneficial for our child. Who knows, she might be right and we might find that we made a mistake...all we can do it give it a try.

My dad is a public school teacher of 29 years and even though he is supportive of me not putting DS1into school, he is still unsettled because of the school teacher in him. He was really relieved to hear were were going with something that was state acredited and knowing full well that DS1 could graduate with a diploma from this school. For us, that is really important as well...maybe it's the school teacher's kid in me :giggle

[Singingmom]

Of course you can post here! :yes :hug

[Mommyo6]

They just started a virtual PS in our state and hubby and I were at a state HS leader's retreat where the state board told us all the reasons we should take a stand against it. I have to tell you, if you were there and heard all the points they made you might see thier point. It was mostly political. They have very good case. Using a virtual school that is paid for by the PS can can and may in the long run weaken the home school laws and freedoms for all of us. Home schoool leaders who have sacrificed much and spent hours lobbying state legislators ect can't bear to see this happen, I can see what they are saying.

BUT that said if your child is with you at home all day and you oversee their education, then you are still a home schooler. It does not matter where your curriculum comes from. And you will be making the same scarifices (one income) having the same issues (motivating children scheduling ect) the any homeschooler does. In other words you will have the same difficulties, time issues etc as anyone who had their children at home all day! How can they say that you wouldn't!

I don't know how we can close the gap on this PS virtual school issues. We cannot let it divide us - HS'er must stand united. I think those who want to use PS resources must listen to the real and serious concerns the HS leaders have about it. And those who need the help of it or the financial help... must have their needs met by the HS community then. It's kind of like saying you're against abortion but throwing the pregnant girl out on the street. If someone needs that free curriculm don't turn your nose up at them for taking it if you're not going to help them.

Mommyo6

[erinee]

I've read all the HSDLA's concerns and been lectured by several on the board of our HS association, and I don't share their concerns at all. If they disagree that the VCS is the best route to take, so be it, but don't shut me out altogether. However, the HSLDA's arguments seem to be fear-mongering and based on a slippery slope scenario, and I never take those kinds of arguments very seriously.

I am not an all-or-nothing sort of person, and it saddens me that if I don't keep my children at home acccording to their rules, I'm not one of them. It means that if the virtual school option ever opens to me and I choose to use it, I'll be ostracized by both communities.

I understand that HSers have fought long and hard for their rights. It is sad to me that some people don't support other families who may have no desire to homeschool on our own to have an educational choice available that would at least keep our children at home with us.

I don't see where virtual charter schools would lead to an erosion of homeschool freedoms at all. It's an option you can choose to utilize or not, just as brick-and-mortar public schools are an option you can choose or not. It's just a new idea, and people by nature are afraid of new ideas. If one always takes new ideas to the worst possible conclusion, society would never move forward. But that's what both the teacher's unions and many in the homeschool community are doing with virtual charter schools.

I am so happy to see some support here at GCM, because this is a battle I have not finished fighting, and I continue to hold out hope that the schools will somehow open in the fall. I reiterate that there seemed to be only a couple of people on the homeschool association email list who weren't supportive, but they were very vocal and not very nice about it. I've been wanting to ask the question of this forum myself, but after the email exchange on our local homeschool email list, I was leery and afraid of the answer. I'm glad someone else asked it!

[Mommyo6]

I hope I made it clear that I totally think VS is still homeschool. You're kids are at home and you are schooling them! I think the HS commnunity cannot reject those that are going to use this option and it will be happening more and more. It needs to be faced and accepted as just another option for us.

Perhaps if VSchoolers were vocal about saying that they consider themselves HSers and will continue to defend and lobby for HS rights it would put some people's fears at ease? I know the fear is based on the fact that by enrolling in VS you havd to jump thru certain hoops like testing. Well I don't have to test now and I don't want to. So the fear is if VSers agree to test then they will say to me.."what is your problem you should test too, after all your buddise the VS are"

We were told that in states that have had it for a while HS rights have eroded? So maybe it is not just fear mongering... I personally do not have enough information to judge this myself. It might be worth finding out for ourselves. Maybe GCM could be a place where we could model a way of working together and acceptence for others to see. I know when we got the ad for the new state VS. my hubby was like :jawdrop "where do we sign up!" We are not doing it but I sure can see why folks would!

[erinee]

Oh, you didn't make it sound like VCS wasn't HSing. :heart I'm sorry if my frustrations are coming out in my post. It wasn't anything you said per se, but I *am* very frustrated that the HSLDA and homeschool organization won't help us in our fight -- if they did, our school might be opening in the fall. We simply don't have the power or the money to fight the teacher's union.

I agree that if the VCS came in and began eroding the right to homeschool privately and independently, I would fight that. I wouldn't agree with that at all. The VCS is right for *my* family, but I can see why some homeschoolers wouldn't want the intrusion. It's not something that anyone should have to be a part of if they don't want to.

The thing is, probably most people who were interested in joining the VCS were homeschoolers. They all were very vocal about keeping independent homeschooling legal. It was just a way that they saw of making their lives easier, and they felt that as taxpayers they had a right to teacher support and free curriculum.

[Ima LeShalosh]

AZVA has been here for at least 4 years now and I have not heard of any erosion of HSing laws. I know that AZ is pretty liberal in regard to HSing and do not have strict laws in place any longer...I can't imagine they would change anything now just because of AZVA. I do know that there is now a 2nd VSing program that just started up this year...we got a flier for it to join them instead...but we are more confident with AZVA and K12 because they have been around and have things set.

If you wouldn't mid sharing some of the concerns you have heard, I would love to hear them because I would like to be watchful of possible problems that the VS might cause in our state.

[ArmsOfLove]

Actually, AFHE worked HARD with a legislator to get strong pro homeschooling laws and rights put into place. All it would take is a different anti-homeschooling legislator in place to work just as hard and our rights and freedoms would be eroded overnight.

Perhaps if VSchoolers were vocal about saying that they consider themselves HSers and will continue to defend and lobby for HS rights it would put some people's fears at ease?I don't believe *in Arizona, at least* that this is the issue. The problem from the homeschool camp is that VA has been offered in response to homeschooling as a way for the public school system to keep their hands on and their wallets open to children who would otherwise be lost to them to homeschooling. It also plays on the fears of many parents that they can't do it by providing a packaged way to public school at home--which is not the goal of homeschooling which is to empower parents to teach their own children. As well, it opens the door for lawmakers and lobbyists to argue that "it's at home" so it should define homeschooling and that is a door that pure and often persecuted homeschoolers who went to jail to get the laws that are on the books in many states today want to see happen.

To take it to a few other areas: It's like hospitals opening birth centers so that less women choose homebirth; it's convincing women they need to pump and/or supplement so that they won't breastfeed completely.

Because it's there I don't fault parents for taking advantage of it if it meets a compromise in their home or meets their current situations. I just understand the homeschooling communities concerns :heart

[musicmommy]

:hug2 It really saddens me to see such divisions. We wouldn't use the VA here because we love being completely in charge and not needing to follow someone else's schedule. However, my friends that use the VA are still homeschoolers and do face the same issues. We are all home with the kids trying to give them the best education we can. It's not necessarily an easy road, but it is one we can encourage and support each other on.

[Mommyo6]

Well the big issues they had concerns with ..as I can remember were:

1. Testing: Virtual PS's will require testing and if they are getting test scores from that section of HSers then the powers that be will begin to desire them of the rest of us. If a large portion use VS, they will become complacent and used to government testing and forget that some of their sisters don't want to have that required of them. We willl loose our voice of protest over it.

2. same issue with curriculum reporting - I have complete freedom now, but if half my state is using govt. provided books maybe they will begin to think I should to tell them what I use too.

3. The number one thing is that it will divide and conquer the strong political voice of the home school movement. Here is a sample scenerio: If in state x pretend there are 10,000 HS families and they don't have any testing requirements and everyone is happy. Senator Yuck puts a bill before the legislature that HSers should test every year and WOW! He is slammed with 10,000 phone calls by 6 pm that day by unhappy HS families. The political lobby of HS'ers is very effective. He withdraws his bill or no one votes for it. The next year a VS is enacted and 4,000 families jump at the chane for free books, free computer ect and join up. Now only 6,000 families are not attached to the goverment sysetem. Now comes along Senator Bad and puts up the testing bill again. This time only 6,000 families call in, not nearly as effective and on top of that Senator Bad points to the other 4,000 VS families and says "they test and they don't complain or mind at all, why should you?" now all of a sudden all the senators vote yes and we have testing back again. Our voice has been divided.

I read that in Alaska in the beginning of their VS you could purchase religous curriculm such as Abeka, Alpha Omega ect but as each year went by they dropped these from the list of approved materials citing separation of church and state so that now there are no Christian materials on the list. Here in NM the program is in its infancy, this was the first year and I was impressed it had so much Christian material to choose from, even my favorite, Sonlight, was there but we were told to expect them to be dropped in the next 2 to 3 years and the choices to become secular PS books only. That is part of why I ...HS to use Christian material.

Those are the big things I can remember from the meeting.

Mommyo6

[deena]

Mommy06, you brought up some interesting points. :think :yes

I think it's sad and wrong that you were excluded from a homeschool group but I think HSLDA is right to separate homeschoolers from Virtual PSers. Their concern is focused on the legal rights of homeschoolers and the "slippery slope" is not something to be taken lightly in politics and laws. That is basically how all legislation comes about.

[erinee]

Not even a week after getting the crushing news that we would not get our VCS, I received this via the homeschool email list:

"It has taken almost three months for us to have something ready to publish as a policy statement regarding virtual charter schools.

First of all, let it be clear that we are not condemning folks who have
their children in government schools. Sometimes there is a clear calling to be there, sometimes it is a practical matter. But, I would apply the word spoken by the apostle Paul, who when addressing those in slavery, said "Were you called while a slave? Do not worry about it; but if you are able also to become free, rather do that. For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord’s freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ’s slave."

The final paragraph of the statement is the bottom line. It is a legal
matter; some think this is paranoid, but events in other states have already demonstrated the wisdom of this position.

>> I cannot imagine how you would be able to "deny" inclusion for those families who are opting to home school in this way.

It turns out to be not actually so difficult.

Technically, by law, VCSs are not "home schools", and while the fact that the schooling happens at home does give some great advantages, particularly for someone in the situation of Erin's son, the matter of controlling authority, and the potential reach of that control to situations within the home not relating to curriculum, or to, say, support group activities such as field trips, is potentially and sometimes actually problematic.

In the final analysis, our interest is not only for the protection of the
individual family, but for the rest of the membership who have not chosen to come under government oversight. As with many actions in life, the "law of unintended consequences" often comes into play, particularly in today's legal environment.

>> They join TEACHErs, pay the $15 fee, and are able to participate.

The point of this policy is that they will not join TEACHErs for the
specific benefit of any child participating in a VCS, thus a child enrolled in a VCS will not be able to participate. I would guess that, should VCSs become a reality in Indiana, there might be an opportunity for someone to start a support group for VCS students, if the governing educational authorities won't own them.

>> There are many families who are currently utilizing the public schools for High School courses, as well as band and orchestra. Will they also no longer be allowed to participate?

Note that this does not preclude TEACHErs members from making use of government school offerings as long as the parent is still the controlling entity, i.e., the government school isn't taking responsibility for the outcome of the educational process, or issuing the diploma. The reason that this situation is different from the case of a family who uses the curriculum and services of an entity such as Christian Liberty Academy School System, is that a government school's influence and control carries the weight of law, often with unintended consequences.

If new information or reasons are brought to our attention, this policy can, of course, be modified as warranted.

René

TEACHE’rs Policy on “Virtual Charter Schools”

The opening phrase of the TEACHE’rs by-laws statement of purpose declares that, “The purpose of the corporation shall be to further the interests of home education of children by their parents…”

In the state of Indiana, a) "home education of children", b) "by their
parents", is permitted because such homeschools are legally recognized as private schools. What makes a “homeschool” a homeschool is not merely the physical location in which instruction takes place. In Indiana a homeschool must be a private school, operating under the auspices or jurisdiction of a non-public entity.

We agree with the following position enunciated by the Home School Legal Defense Association. “By inviting government oversight into the home, these programs could eventually result in increased regulation of actual homeschools. It is vital that homeschoolers remain independent and free from government control.”

TEACHE’rs wishes to safeguard the rights of parents to educate their
children at home free from the control of the public primary and secondary school systems. Therefore, as a matter of policy, membership in TEACHE’rs is not available to parents who are educating their children at home under the jurisdiction of public school “virtual charter schools.”"

Ouch. Talk about rubbing salt in very fresh wounds. :(

I just wish they would have informed themselves a little better. No one comes into your home with VCS. They don't control anything other than making sure your student knows their material, and while you have to use their materials in order to pass the assessments, you can use whatever you want over and above what they provide. If I want to use "Considering God's Creation" on top of their science curriculum, I am perfectly free to do so.....as long as the work required by the school is done. They have no way of knowing whether I throw a Bible story into a language arts or history lesson. They're not sticking video cameras in our homes. The student just has to know their material. It's no different from what we do right now in public school, I supplement what he learns there with whatever I want to do. The teacher meetings *never* take place in the home -- they meet at libraries, Starbucks, somewhere neutral. The fears are unfounded. I have talked with parents in Ohio and PA who have been using this curriculum, and they have confirmed this. This is no Big Brother kind of thing -- although it sounds like that is what the homeschool association is becoming. Are they going to start insisting that their members reveal the curriculum they are using?

Take my post with a grain of salt -- I'm hurt and angry, and I feel betrayed by both communities. Even if I homeschool, I won't become a member of TEACHE'rs next year, and I sent them an email saying as much. I can't support someone who won't even let my son attend their gym class twice a week any more than I can send my son back to a public school that cares more about money than about his needs. The homeschool association has made it every bit as clear as the ISTA that they don't care about my family, so I'm on my own.

I really feel very much alone. :(

[deena]

Take my post with a grain of salt -- I'm hurt and angry, and I feel betrayed by both communities.


That must be so tough to be in the middle like that. :hug2

[Ima LeShalosh]

I am about to say something that will most likely get me shot on the spot here....but...

I see nothing wrong with a child in HS being required to test! I say this because I know faaaar too many young adults that are half-wits because their parents did not educate them properly! I worked with on young man that could barely read without hesitation. There is a young (16) girl that I have known since diapers who is smart, but uneducated and has real learning issues because she has been left to educate herself because mom has 6 other kids...all of which she is HSing and all of which are slow. My dad (a teacher) tutored her brother in math and the child (13at the time) could barely multiply nor divide! My husband works with a HSing family and again, her 5yo is 3yo level and still can't read one word and her eldest is 3rd grade age, but is still working in 1st-2nd grade levels. I know of many more personal HSers that should NOT have been HSed and had there have been some sort of testing required of these kids, maybe the system would have said...WOHA...hold on a second...there is something wrong here! OTOH, I also know of several success stories where the child went to public HS and ended up being top of the class. These families produced achievers and their children range from pre-med, pre-law and even one that now works for NASA.

Some parents are meant to HS and others are not...some are spot on and well educated themselves and others lack and leave it to their child to work on their own. I think this is a HUGE disservice to these children that will be adults in the working world one day and will suffer because of their lack of education. If you see another way to prevent these instances, then please share them and I will change my view of required testing...but if not, then how can it be wrong to catch on to parents such as I mentioned above????

[Mommyo6]

Praisin Mommy- I won't shoot you but I will challenge your thoughts! Here is the problem with requiring testing..in my state they did require testing when we began HSing but have now removed that requirment. Why? Because if your child got a zero% on the test it meant nothing. They could not take away your right to HS. WHY? Because there are kids in public school getting scores that low too! What are they going to do? Make those kids switch to homeschool!? There is a double standerd if the PS says you must have X percentile on the test to continue HS'ing then they do nothing to the PS kids with lower than X %. And of course given the nature of % there will have to be some that fall below the mark. Will they make them go to home or private school? By law they cannot require more of us than they do of themselves! So when many states had this pointed out to them and they were just chunking our scores in the round file any way, (In NM they were literally throwing them in the trash) they realized they were making us jump thru a hoop for no valid purpose that they had no legal reason to make us do.

And testing is not really a good way to judge an education anyway, what about the disabled child who will never score well on a written test who won't look good on paper ever but is going so much further with a one on one education at home. We sure would not want their parent
judged by one written test score would we? I say all this as a former public educator who loved teaching and whose hubby is a 20 year career PS high school teacher still. My kids have been totally home educated, largely because of what hubby and I experienced as teachers ourselves.

Plus HS'ers have shown nation wide over and over for many years on end that as a group they do score consistently higher than PSers. Of course there are the horror stories like you mention, but those few do not make up for the rest of us that are commiteed and have kiddos that will usually outscore their PS peers. There are by far more academic failures in PS than HS.
Most HS parents are very commited to making sure the children are well educated. And their test donot suit us...we may follow a different schedule forcovering subjects....we may unschool and let them cover subjects when they are interested, we may take 6 months off to help Grandma die (lie ewe did ono year) HSing is so broad that a boxed in PS test just does not fairly reflect our learning experience.

Yet learn we do! My son scored in the 93% on his college entrance exam. The highest in his college freshman class. And we really are semi unschoolers. I am not an academic driven HS mom at all! No I don't think testing these kids is something we need to worry about. I do think if we have friends who are totally NOT giving thier kids any education or are abusing the name of HSing we should challenge them, for the sake of all of us, to buck up and make sure they do right by their kids!

Mommyo6
20 to 5

[Ima LeShalosh]

You made a LOT of valid points and I understand totally. Thank you for being level headed and not firing at me on the spot. Your calm approach caused me to see things from your point of view and kept me from taking a defensive approach. I hope others will follow your leading:)

In AZ in order to HS YEARRRRS ago (when I was HS age) the PARENTS had to undergo the testing. My aunt HSed my cousin and had to take tests in English, Math, and a few other tests. She was unable to pass the English portion, so she was not allowed to HS in that area and had to contract outside to have him HSed in English. My mom took the test to HS him and passed and so she did that portion of his HSing. This is a GOOD thing because my aunt can't spell and has HORRIBLE grammar...which she would have passed on to him had my mom not HSed him in this area.

What are your thoughts on parents being expected to take testing in order to HS their child?

How do you prevent flunky HSed children if there are no precautions taken? Maybe I see a higher influx of flunky HSed children in my area because we are in a hick town that is filled with the largest percentage of "lazy parents" I have ever seen in my life!

I guess I see this from a more liberal stand point because I am a teacher's kid. Both my parents are educators and so I have that standard in my blood. I despise the school system and see how it fails children...but I also place a HUGE value on higher education because it has been passed to me by my father, who expects perfection in school. This is why I see VS programs as being the best of both worlds...you have the ability to keep your child out of the school system and can make sure s/he is not being neglected in areas of struggle but yet you have the standards that the state sets forth and can be assured that your child is being thoroughly educated in EVERY subject!

[mamahammer]

Many, many parents choose to homeschool based, at least in part, on a disdain for standardized testing. I know that's a part of the puzzle for me :yes I don't care if my children can pass the TAKS test in 3rd grade :shrug That tells me nothing about their abilities. In the same way that good test scores in a school might tell me that this particular school spends too much time preparing for tests, but cannot tell me what kind of education the children of the school are receiving.

As for testing the parents, honestly? Do I cringe when I read posts on various message boards filled with misspellings and improper grammar? Yes. Funny, though, half of those posts are from homeschooling parents - and a good portion of the rest are from public school teachers :shrug If you tested me *right now* on my knowledge of Ancient Civilizations, I'd likely make a "C," at best. But I'm not expected to teach my children based off of my head-knowledge right this very moment :no I have years before we'll need indepth ancient civilzation lessons, and I will learn either one step ahead of them, or we will learn alongside each other :tu

[Ima LeShalosh]

I don't know that the state was worried about you teaching ancient civilization or your lack of knowledge...but rather on "your" lack of knowledge how to speak, spell and perform basic mathematical functions. As far as the spelling errors...I don't take too much stock in ones ability to communicate on message boards. We tend to type faster than our brains are thinking and most are in a hurry and do not care to take the time to check their typos. I for one am a typo queen..but that has no bearings on my education level :)

I am not saying that I would cherish the idea of testing in order to school my child...but in what way can parents be held accountable and what precautions can be made that would insure children are not being harmed by uneducated parents...or lazy parents?

I pose the same arguments to the PS system! I find it incredulous that there are sooooo many teachers that are "ALLOWED" to be teachers or that are allowed to continue to teach! My mom works with a woman that should be baned from any school building! Her class is behind all the other classes and not one can read a simple K reader! She blames it on having the "slow" class, but my mom works one and one with her students and sees her teach and it is sickening! She berates the children...I could go on and on about her short comings.

I guess in the end, no child is going to be safe from irresponsible hands...not parents and not teachers. At some point, there will be a child that is being failed by someone....so I guess all these concerns are mute :think You would think there would be a logical answer and solution :shrug

[joandsarah77]

Ok I am taking deep breaths here. her 5yo is 3yo level and still can't read one word Things like that really make me feel bad. My 5 1/2 year old still can't read a word either. (apart from her name) We have been going over letters and numbers for more then a year now. Does her non reading mean I should put her in school? would they do any better. I highly doubt it. Why is it so important for a five year old to read. Some kids simply aren’t ready.

With testing. Some kids will take a test well then forget everything on it. Some kids will freeze in a test and flunk out even though they know the stuff. Maybe the school system deems that dinosaurs were what grade 3 should learn on but your homeschool child did the solar system and failed the section on dinosaurs. What has the testing accomplished?
As to testing us *horrors!* no thank you. I am sure I would flunk, and I don't consider myself stupid. Just the product of Gvt and privet schools! Who says I can't learn along with my child. Isn't that what curriculum’s and books are for?
.

[AdrienneQW]

but yet you have the standards that the state sets forth and can be assured that your child is being thoroughly educated in EVERY subject!

If I wanted the government deciding the "standards" to which my dc would be held accountable, I would put them in public school ;) In my state, "thoroughly educating" children in the benign-sounding subject of Health, for example, means exposing them to a plethora of immoral and dangerous nonsense.

For me, the bottom line is this - my children do not belong to the school system, the government, or "society". They belong to God, and God placed them in my hands to raise as I see fit. It is to Him that I must be held accountable for their education, not to the school board or the state or a piece of nonsense legislation like No Child Left Behind.

Besides, compulsory public education in this country was never intended to truly educate the masses. I believe my children not only deserve better than what the school system has become, they deserve better than the school system was designed for.

I am not saying that I would cherish the idea of testing in order to school my child...but in what way can parents be held accountable and what precautions can be made that would insure children are not being harmed by uneducated parents...or lazy parents?

Parents should be held accountable to God, not government. Unfortunately there will always be those statistical outliers, those damnable parents who refuse to care properly for their own children - be it in providing for their physical health, mental health, education, etc. However, it would be counterproductive to throw the baby out with the bathwater and place unreasonable and unjust restrictions on all parents because of the failings of those few.

[joandsarah77]

in what way can parents be held accountable and what precautions can be made that would insure children are not being harmed by uneducated parents...or lazy parents?

The way I see it parents should not be held accountable. Now before you go off at that let me clarify. :giggle It has been shown that the majority of homeschooled kids are doing well, often with tests scores above the ps schooled. (Not that test scores mean much I don't think). This happens if the state has many requirements or no requirements of the homeschooling parent. Which means those requirements are just hoops which are taking up the valuable time of those homeschooling parents as well as wasting Gvt money.
Most parents who homeschool do so because they are deeply concerned and committed to there children. If any one is going to care how they turn out it is them. Schools do not really care about your child only tests scores and money.

If we deem that parents are accountable to the Gvt we are saying 1. The Gvt knows better then us what and when our child should learn. 2 That really the state is in charge of our children and not us. I do think we are accountable, but not to Gvt, only to God. What I think is that Gvt should be accountable to parents! not the other way around. I don't want my child to have a Gvt education, I want much more. I want them to learn about Bible history and world history starting at first or second grade. yes they may fail a Gvt scope and sequence list, but so what :shrug who says what the Gvt decides is right? Do they have the pipeline to all knowledge of what a child should learn. No they are just people.

[Ima LeShalosh]

After a huge book of a post in reply to questions and comments...I have decided to delete it and respond by saying this...

I am anti Gvt Education. I think it has failed more children in far BIGGER ways than some HSed children face. I believe that the majority of the mommas on this board sum up the majority of HSing parents. Parents that care, that are passionate and that take pride in educating their children...it is evident once that child enters college and the tests are then required...they (HSed children) typical excel far beyond a PS child.

There is no magic answer to keep a child from being neglected by an unconcerned parent..whether it be physical, mental or educational abuse. This is where all we can do is pray that the Lord would convict and intervene.

My intention was not to make any momma feel bad about their child's ability nor about their ability to school their child. My concern is for children that are being neglected in their education and while testing could help to weed out those parents, I also see the down side to this way of thinking. :hug

[BluegrassMama]

thank you for editing; you did, so I did :)

[SueQ]

I will learn either one step ahead of them, or we will learn alongside each other
You know, my math, phonics, and spelling are improving through me homeschooling my children. The things that I have forgotten over the years are coming back. This is one thing that I love about homeschooling! I am learning along with my children. :heart

Some kids will freeze in a test and flunk out even though they know the stuff.
:yes2 I was one of those children. This is the main reason I am so anti-test. They don't show what a child truly knows. Sit down with a child talk to them in a conversational way. Then you will get an accurate picture of what a child knows. Testing a child only shows what type of test taker the child is. :yes2

I think our government is getting too big. It is poking it's noise in private lives way too much. Too many of our freedoms have been taken away and more freedoms are slowly disappering. That is scary to me. I live in a State that has strict homeschool laws starting when a child is 8. This next year I'll have to keep a portifolio, registar with the school district, have an evaluator go over my child's portifolio & interview my child and my child will have to take a stardardized test. Luckily I can choose my evaluator and I know one is is laid back and would lean closer to unschooling than school-at-home so I am going with her. I keep track of things VIA a portifolio anyway but hate the idea of turning it in to the school district for them to go over. My testing of my child consists of me sitting down talking to him asking him questions in a conversational way about what he learned. For math and spelling we have math and spelling bees where we see how fast he can answer the questions orally while I time him. We don't do paper tests. Filling in bubbles shows nothing, IMO. I am sort of dreading next year. Too much big government. YUCK!!!

Now back to VCS...I know people who use them and they work well for their families. I still consider them homeschoolers and have no problem with them. It's not a choice I would choose, they didn't effect our states homeschooling laws, because our state had these crazy laws before the VCS even arrived. Do the VCS effect us not being able to pass more lenient homeschooling laws? I doubt it but then I haven't studied the issues so I don't really know. I just know that I hate our state's homeschooling laws.

[Teacher Mom]

If I wanted the government deciding the "standards" to which my dc would be held accountable, I would put them in public school ;) In my state, "thoroughly educating" children in the benign-sounding subject of Health, for example, means exposing them to a plethora of immoral and dangerous nonsense.

For me, the bottom line is this - my children do not belong to the school system, the government, or "society". They belong to God, and God placed them in my hands to raise as I see fit. It is to Him that I must be held accountable for their education, not to the school board or the state or a piece of nonsense legislation like No Child Left Behind.


I agree.


Besides, compulsory public education in this country was never intended to truly educate the masses. I believe my children not only deserve better than what the school system has become, they deserve better than the school system was designed for.


The word Truly needs to be emphasized here. I am not sure how many people understand that statement. Public education was originally designed for an industrialized nation(a nation of factory workers).

And I agree with the idea that just because a child does not know how to read by a set age, does not mean he is not being educated. Children learn at different levels as all moms of more than one child know.

Back to the original post. Yes, of course, you are welcome to post here and get needed support. But there is a fine line between home educating our children and keeping them at home, but educating using virtual schools. The first one gives lots more freedom and the second one still invites the gov't to be an authority over your child.

[Mommyo6]

Praisin Mommy,

I'll bet if we come back and talk to you in 5 years you will have changed some of your opinions!
I'll be you will be agreeing with more of us and may not be using a VS anymore...why do I say that. Cuz listening to you talk is like talking a peek back in a looking glass at myself 15 years ago. I too was a product of PS ideas and thoughts. You said your family were PS teachers and all though you see the flaws in PS, you see merits in standards etc. Well I was a PS teacher, I walked out of a PS job to be a stay at home, HS mom, while my hubby remained teaching (and still does). I felt very strongly about public education standards etc but saw flaws I did not want MY children subjected to. And yet I really wondered at the wisdom of letting just ANY parent HS. (After all I had a degree, and in teaching). And most of my friends had degrees in something, we were intelligent, educated women. Of course WE could educate our children but there had to be limits and someone should impose some sort of control. That was me 15 years ago! But God and experience and friends have changed my heart and ideas. I'm betting you will see and experience a lot of change too, homeschooling has a way of doing that to us!

You asked me about testing parents..well we do not even test teachers in all 50 states! It is not required by law to even test all teachers, I certainly don't think they would stand much chance of testing us. And the notes and announcements my hubby brings home from his high school can make me cringe with misspellings and bad grammar. The PS is in such trouble I think the powers that be need to turn their attention to that rather than bother with 2% or so of us that homeschool.

Ultimately we are all accountable for our own children, not the state, whatever form of education we choose. Studies show that for the most part the children that succeed in traditional school do so because they have involved parents that help with homework, are visible at the school and stay in touch with teachers. (Like our PS moms on GCM are I'm sure). Kids fail PS largely because of lack of parents that care. My hubby has parent teacher conferences, of 120 students maybe 15 parents show up! Home schooling works because by in large the parent who chooses to home school wants to be involved or they would not choose it in the first place. There are a few who choose it for other reason but they are so rare.

About judging how others are doing with HS....I know there are those few that give us a black eye BUT... I have an almost 10 year old who did not learn to read until this year. If you had her in your Sunday School class or something last year would you have labeled me one of those "lazy hicks" you mentioned"? I don't want to be harsh with you but try not to judge other Mom's schools by limited knowledge from the outside. My daughter is having academic trouble. She would have had it in any school setting. At home I can be gentle and encouraging with her. She is finally reading. At PS she would have been labeled and she would have known she was "different" It is hard enough at home with her little sister starting to read at age 4. And we are not lazy HSers. (laid back yes) My son was our state's National Geography champion 4 years running and has been to Nationals in Washington DC with Alex Trebek etc.. Now he has a 4.0 in college. You see one piece of info makes me sound like a great HS mom, one piece makes me sound not so good. But it is the same school, same mom, same house, different children. Which will I get judged by when folks decide if I am lazy or hard working HS mom? My 9 year old who barely reads or my Geography champion, HS graduated, 4.0 college son? One of the things I learned the hard way was not to judge other mom's HSing from the outside results. I did it at first and was embarrassed by myself a few times.

Yes some will always do a poor job and their kids will suffer the consequences of a poor education, but no I don't think we should try to regulate all of us to catch those few. Why?
In order to have the freedom to home school part of the price we pay is that some will abuse that freedom. We have the freedom to give birth to as many children as we like in this country but we can all agree that there are some who should never ever give birth! (child molesters, druggie moms, child abusers). We have the freedom to drive our cars but some will drive drunk today and kill someone. We have freedom of speech but some abuse it to say and print hateful prejudice words. With our freedoms come abusers of the freedoms but we can agree that we don't want to live in a martial state to protect us from those that may abuse the freedom.

I want my freedom to HS to remain just like my free speech and free life style choices
(Does someone want to start waving the flag and singing 'My Country Tis of Thee now?)

Well I'll get off my hobby horse now, I have a lot to do on this busy Saturday , I hope I did not offend! I just am hoping you will see some of what it took me years to learn as I got shook PS mentality/mind set out of my system and learned what in the non indoctrainted HSers already knew!

Oh yeah and the first few years I homescooled my house looked like a miniture public school, desks flags etc....boy did that disappear after a while. Now we school anywhere and everywhere!

Mommyo6

[AdrienneQW]

You see one piece of info makes me sound like a great HS mom, one piece makes me sound not so good. But it is the same school, same mom, same house, different children. Which will I get judged by when folks decide if I am lazy or hard working HS mom? My 9 year old who barely reads or my Geography champion, HS graduated, 4.0 college son? One of the things I learned the hard way was not to judge other mom's HSing from the outside results.

This bears repeating!

[CelticJourney]

Humm.... :think

Virtual schoolers consider that you might need to start support groups for your particular needs - every sub-group's support had to start somewhere. :yes I know that it is hard, but independant homeschoolers have had to fight very long and very hard for what we have today and I can understand not wanting to water it down in any way - sorry.

Testing - I test my children because the accountablity option that I have chosen requires it. The problem with testing involved the standardization of curriculum patterns - homeschoolers are free to pick and choose when we study what, so we might be well versed in Ancient history, but not to the level of testing for American History because that is on the agenda for the next year. Saxon is strong, but not in geometry until the later years. Things like that.

[ArmsOfLove]

I am about to say something that will most likely get me shot on the spot here....but...

I see nothing wrong with a child in HS being required to test! I say this because I know faaaar too many young adults that are half-wits because their parents did not educate them properly! I worked with on young man that could barely read without hesitation. There is a young (16) girl that I have known since diapers who is smart, but uneducated and has real learning issues because she has been left to educate herself because mom has 6 other kids...all of which she is HSing and all of which are slow. My dad (a teacher) tutored her brother in math and the child (13at the time) could barely multiply nor divide! My husband works with a HSing family and again, her 5yo is 3yo level and still can't read one word and her eldest is 3rd grade age, but is still working in 1st-2nd grade levels. I know of many more personal HSers that should NOT have been HSed and had there have been some sort of testing required of these kids, maybe the system would have said...WOHA...hold on a second...there is something wrong here! OTOH, I also know of several success stories where the child went to public HS and ended up being top of the class. These families produced achievers and their children range from pre-med, pre-law and even one that now works for NASA.

Some parents are meant to HS and others are not...some are spot on and well educated themselves and others lack and leave it to their child to work on their own. I think this is a HUGE disservice to these children that will be adults in the working world one day and will suffer because of their lack of education. If you see another way to prevent these instances, then please share them and I will change my view of required testing...but if not, then how can it be wrong to catch on to parents such as I mentioned above????
and because you aren't familiar with MY children or MY compiled curriculums and because I reject the idea of the order in which the public schools have organized information for learning exactly how do you expect to test MY children to show competency? Perhaps public schools should start proving that children are learning before they worry too much about homeschooled children. For every "uneducated" child you can show me in homeschooling I can remember at least 10 in my personal public school experience.

[SouthPaw]

So if a kid comes uneducated out of public school, it's the PS teachers' fault for not teaching him the age appropriate skills.
And if a kid comes uneducated out of home school, it's the PS teachers' fault for expecting him to know age appropriate skills?

:shifty

[ArmsOfLove]

So if a kid comes uneducated out of public school, it's the PS teachers' fault for not teaching him the age appropriate skills.
And if a kid comes uneducated out of home school, it's the PS teachers' fault for expecting him to know age appropriate skills?

:shifty
:scratch Hunh that makes no sense. I'm saying that until the public school system cleans up it's own mess and starts educating the children entrusted to it I believe they should definitely stay out of my homeschool and what I'm doing that is working to educate my children. IOW, Mind their own business--the children that have been entrusted to them.

I am not saying that there aren't homeschooled children who fall off the radar or aren't educated, but I do believe there are extenuating circumstances and, often these are children who wouldn't have been well educated even in a public school system. How many of the children in remedial classes are children from dysfunctional homes that are so stressed about life that they can't learn; or who have minor but missed learning disabilities. There will always, sadly, be these children in the homeschool community too. That's just life in the big world in which we live.

And I do believe that there are children in dysfunctional homes or situations that would do better in public school. I've always said not everyone should homeschool. Some people say they are homeschooling but they are abusive or neglectful. That's not a fault with homeschooling and any paradigm they are in will see them abusive/neglectful.

But these are still the minority and I refuse to sacrifice my homeschooling parental rights that have been fought hard for by those who came before me so that the public school system can monitor and/or test homeschoolers. Clean up their own house and leave me to mine.

[SouthPaw]

see, i get that :think i'm just not sure it's a valid argument to say that since many PSers are doing poorly, the school system has no business setting *some sort* of standard (not necessarily the tests/standards we know and :heart :rolleyes currently)

students who attend PS and do not do well have *many* reasons for being uneducated... a main one is parental non-involvement - if the kid is sent home with 2 hours of homework and nobody has him do it or helps him with it, :shrug the teacher can't "make" him. don't really want to extend school 2 hours so he can do it there. so why blame that failure on the teachers? now it may be a fault of a "system" that requires so much work, you may argue, but the fact is he COULD do it and learn just like his classmates, but not if the parents don't help him/make him/work with the teachers. it isn't a fault of "public school" itself when the education is *being provided* but is rejected by the individual, or unsupported by the parents.

[CelticJourney]

And if a kid comes uneducated out of home school, it's the PS teachers' fault for expecting him to know age appropriate skills?

NO, we are saying that if a homeschooled child does not do well on a standardized test it is possibly the fault of a test that is measuring something different than is being taught in the home. For example, given a name, my 9 yo can locate 90% of the countries around the world with the exception of Africa, which we are still working on. If you give her a standardized Social Studies test, she may or may not be familiar with the materials, but it certainly doesn't mean she is uneducated.

PS does not have any better track record than homeschooling, perhaps worse, so I fail to see why you think we should give over judgement to them?

Uneducated homeschoolers come from the same place uneducated public schoolers do - lack of parental involvement. There is also a small minority of people whose children kicked out of public schools who then claim they will 'homeschool' which means in their case that they do nothing and negelect their children in many ways. I wonder what percentage of these are the ones you seem to be refering to?

[ArmsOfLove]

PS does not have any better track record than homeschooling, perhaps worse, so I fail to see why you think we should give over judgement to them?this is what I'm trying to say.

It would make more sense to me to turn over "grading" and "monitoring" the public school system to homeschool parents whose children have gone on to Ivy league college. that would go over like a lead balloon ;)

[SouthPaw]

I fail to see why you think we should give over judgement to them?

i don't :no i'm trying to find reasons NOT to and i'm making y'all do the mental effort for me. :lol seriously, i'm just hashing out ideas and i am doing this to learn from you, not try to prove "PS should require testing of all kids" :no these are honest questions, inconsistencies, and "what ifs..." my mind is churning out, not arguments :heart

[SouthPaw]

what if there was a "neutral" body? or a cooperative effort (ok, :laughtears just thinking about a bunch of HS moms and PS teachers trying to come to a consensus) i don't think PS is a good picture at all of what could/should be learned in HS. at the same time, it seems that there is a basic core knowledge and skill level that any child any the USA of normative intelligence should possess by the time they graduate high school.

[ArmsOfLove]

i'm trying to find reasons NOT to and i'm making y'all do the mental effort for me. :spit :laughtears

[CelticJourney]

i'm trying to find reasons NOT to and i'm making y'all do the mental effort for me
Because respect is earned.

[AdrienneQW]

i don't think PS is a good picture at all of what could/should be learned in HS. at the same time, it seems that there is a basic core knowledge and skill level that any child any the USA of normative intelligence should possess by the time they graduate high school.

Want to really have some fun? Start off that list for us... give maybe ten things you think should be on that list. ;)

[joandsarah77]

i'm just not sure it's a valid argument to say that since many PSers are doing poorly, the school system has no business setting *some sort* of standard (not necessarily the tests/standards we know and currently)

Ok to ask that back, Why do you think the school system has the right to set standards?

but the fact is he COULD do it and learn just like his classmates, but not if the parents don't help him/make him/work with the teachers.

Some kids do have involved families and still don't learn because the way the school teaches is not the way they learn. My parents were quite involved but at 7 I couldn't read. I needed much more one to one teaching, in a class room setting I was adrift. I had repeated grade one and my report card said reads at an April level. (school runs from Jan to Dec over here, so April is end of first term) My father took me aside and taught me to read over the summer. He again took me aside at 10 and taught me maths. I often wonder how I would have done if he hadn't been the type to make that effort.