Her career depends on your children attending public school.

[Rabbit]

I am posting this here, because I nearly took over an unrelated thread with it. Please understand that I am a strong advocate for mothers staying home with their children, being in charge of their education, and I thoroughly belief in the merits and benefits of homeschooling. As a family, we are dedicated to homeschooling, though clearly my children are still babies, and I have fought hard to become a stay at home mother.

Here is what is getting under my skin:
It's just the nature of the beast that a PS teacher will tout the PS system. Her career depends on it!

That is such a fallacy. It drives me nuts to hear it, and I hear it from homeschooling mothers ALL THE TIME, especially on this board. The PS teacher doesn't promote the PS system because she's a money-hoarding conspirator, out to rob the nation's children of their mothers just so she can make an easy dime. SHE BELIEVES IN IT! She believes it's best for children. She believes in her worth as a professional teacher, and her ability to help the children in her charge to learn. Becoming that teacher took a lot of training and practice, and continued training and practice. Christian teachers may also tell you that they felt called by God to this particular field, and I believe that many of them are indeed doing God's work in public schools, where children are gathered that need ministering.

PS Teachers are not out propogating lies about the wonders of public schools just to line their pockets. They're expressing deeply held beliefs about how to teach young children. They may be wrong, especially about individual students, but that is no reason to malign a person's motives and heart. The system as a whole may be greedy, and administrators at the highest levels may benefit and be motivated by greed, but individual teachers see no impact on their jobs or their salary based on attendance. It's not a pyramid scheme, where the more you sign up, the more you make, not for teachers. Even in my tiny hometown, where two districts merged, one with the "right" kind of people and one with the "bad" kind of people, and the "good" people yanked their kids out en masse for private schools or homeschool, no teacher lost her job or had a salary decrease, because there are hordes of children still in the district, and a constant shortage of teachers.

When you're surrounded by alternative minded home schooling Christians, you might not see that the rest of American society is nowhere near as dedicated to their children as you are. The students I taught were loved by their parents, but poorly nourished, poorly supervised, poorly cared for, because their parents had deprived backgrounds, including their understanding of parenting and what kind of love they received, and few resources. Those children are the reason public school exists, and those children benefit hugely from it. It becomes very hard for teachers used to children who will never do well left alone at home with "good people" to see that other children will thrive there, that every parent isn't doomed to have the typical home. They know only what they see - parents who love their children are rarely able to help them meet their full potential. In my classes, maybe 20% were as dedicated to the job of parenting as you are, though all of them believed and communicated that they were doing the best anybody at all could do.

Teachers can't help that this is their perspective. It doesn't make them greedy or anti-mother or anti-child. It means they have more to learn about mothers, children, and life. It means they're ignorant. That ignorance has a profound impact on our society, but it is still just ignorance, not a desire to harm other people's children for their own gain.

I do believe that behind it all, behind the sorry state of families, behind the ignorance of educational leaders, behind the lack of confidence most parents have in their own abilities to raise their children is the Deceiver himself. It breaks my heart to see people who can't understand what a family is designed to be, because at its root is a lack of knowledge about God, and a lack of his presence in the hearts of so many families.

Please stop villanizing the PS teacher. She's not really the problem, however much of a thorn in the side she can make herself for a homeschooling parent.

[mamahammer]

Very well said. I plan on homeschooling, and I totally agree with what you have said.

[celestial princess]

Very well said. I plan on homeschooling, and I totally agree with what you have said.

:yes :tu

[SilverMoon]

Thank you for your perspective. I honestly hadn't ever considered what a teacher sees in her classroom, as far as parental involvement and care of the kids at home. This will help me understand a bit more if I have a conversation with a public school teacher regarding our choice of education for our kids.

[erinee]

:clap I agree 100%, Natalie. I went to school with kids exactly like you describe. Those kids desperately needed public school, and the teachers saved their lives.

My husband's uncle made an interesting observation recently. He said that before public school became widespread, it was the well-to-do families who wanted the very best for their children who sent them off to school. Poor children or those whose families didn't consider "book-larnin'" a high priority learned at home. Once public schools were created, it became the more affluent families, or those with parents seeking out the very best educational option for their children, who began taking their kids out of school and who now homeschool. But there are still many, many children for whom public school is truly their only hope, and I'm so thankful for caring, dedicated teachers who provide it against all odds.

[apmommy]

.

[fourbygrace]

You are right, Natalie. :O Thanks for speaking up! I certainly never saw it as a greed thing, but a belief system. PS teachers believe that they are doing what is best for kids (although many of them are frustrated with the bureaucracy of it all too). I personally disagree with them; but I am still friends with many of my former colleagues, and I don't insult them for what they do even though I don't agree with their philosophy anymore. :shifty

I taught for 6 years before becoming a mommy and now that I have been home for 9 years, I had forgotten how badly my "kids" needed school. I did consider my students my kids. There is certainly a need for school for many children. Your post reminded me of a few of them specifically!

Blessings,
Mary

[MarynMunchkins]

:tu

[frenetic_turtle]

:clap Natalie

As a committed PS educator married to a committed PS educator, I'd like to weigh in here, please. Did anyone ever consider the idea that some teachers feel a calling by God to teach in the PS system? Imagine what the complete abandonment by Christian educators would mean for the system. Have any of you ever thought about the dire straits our nation would fall into without SOME influence for good at that level?

DH is a middle school principal. As a strong Christian male, he deals with impressionable, needy kids on, literally, an hourly basis. He has the opportunity to exemplify moral character, show boys that "real" men can be compassionate and still strong, represent the perfect gentleman to girls who (sometimes) don't have a good male role model in their lives, and on and on it goes.

It has often been hurtful to me that some of you on this board seem to view all PS teachers in such a negative light. We're not the bad guys. We're not knocking down the big bucks. We're not stupid or ill-equipped. (I was offered scholarships to twelve prestigious universities upon completing my high school education. DH is at the dissertation level for his Ph.D.) Some of just feel that there is a need that must be met and it's our job to fill the need.

We are just as committed to raising our five children as all of you are. We have discussed homeschooling at length. I'm not completely ruling out that possibility forever. I think that you have to be open to what the future may hold. I don't ever judge homeschoolers the way that PS teachers are judged on this board. Let's all try to maintain a little open-mindedness, please.

I truly believe that the hand that rocks the cradle does rule the world. Consider, if you would, what the hand that holds the chalk does for our nation as a whole.

[Maggie]

Well said! :)

[erinee]

Did anyone ever consider the idea that some teachers feel a calling by God to teach in the PS system? Imagine what the complete abandonment by Christian educators would mean for the system.

:tu We know many wonderful Christian teachers who are in their profession for that very reason -- and in fact, it's one reason I'm reluctant to leave the school system, because I feel there is a need for godly parents to influence things as well. I'll do what's right for my children, but there's a tug at my heart when I think of it that way. We've also been fortunate that all of our kids' teachers have been Christians, and in many of our school districts in the area have a huge number of Christian teachers. Zach's principal is a pastor's wife.

They haven't always handled things as well as we would like, but they do bring a much-needed Christian influence that some of these kids will never find anywhere else.

Zach's problem has always been with the other kids, never with his teachers.

[Allison]

Very good, Natalie! I agree. I will be getting my Masters in School Counseling. If every child in America was homeschooled, I'd have to pick another career. However, I still feel that homeschooling is the ideal. The only problem is that the world is not perfect. There are children who need PS, who will flourish in PS and PS can be a place of healing and growing for children who have a less than ideal home situation.
I seriously doubt that any public school teacher is touting PS'ing as best because she's afraid of everyone going to homeschooling and her losing her job.
(And we all know that teachers aren't paid per student and don't make enough money for what they do anyway!)

I'll say this: I knew my calling was School Counseling when I realized that I would absolutely do it for free. The pay will be a nice bonus to getting to do what I'm called to do.

[celestial princess]

Natalie,
I wanted to come back to this because you articulated beautifully an argument I've been trying to make to my DH for a few years. His family are mostly committed HS'ers, and I've heard the type of language you describe repeatedly. I'm always in disbelief. "PS teachers view parents as 'breeders'" and the like. :rolleyes4 :no2 I grew up wanting to be a PS teacher, and it was only in my senior year of high school that I realized I wouldn't be teaching students like myself, who really wanted to learn, but instead mostly students like my brother, who ended up dropping out of the alternative HS somewhere btwn 10-11 grade. I didn't think I had the heart for it. One of my dearest friends is (actually a private) school teacher, and several of my friend's parents are public school teachers, and I'm always deeply insulted on their behalf whenever I hear anything like that. Of course, on the other hand, I once had a patient who was a PS admin and we got to talking about HS once (before I was married or really knew anything about it, other than things the general public knows) and I made the argument that parents know their children and it would be nice to spend time interacting as a family, etc, and her position was what you said: maybe for you that would be true, but the avg HS'ers just keep their kids home to do house work (or something like that).

I agree that it is ignorance on behalf of both parties -- ignorance of actual humans who make these choices for themselves and their families, and I also agree that the HS/PS decision is not an either/or proposition. Thank God we have some degree of educational freedom in this country, as opposed to other countries where govt run PSis mandatory from, like, 3 to 21.

[tempus vernum]

I am not someone who views PS teachers as villians. My aunt is a wonderful PS kindergarten teacher and has offered me pointers and such on my kids. I know many people who send their children to PS and are VERY happy about it. In my area I am concerned about some of the blatant "movements" in the PS (giving up recess, promoting homosexuality, their approach on birth control, etc) but that has nothing to do with the dedicated teachers :no2

I think the "PS teachers are villians" mindset is a reactionary defense mechanism on the parts of homeschoolers. I recently had someone follow me outof the library arguing with me that my dd should be in school only when I casually said "we homeschool so we read a lot" when they commented on the sheer volume of books we were checking out. I had to physically stop myself from getting ticked off and bashing PS workers (cuz frankly, I'd bet $100 that he was).

It seems to me we ALL need to respect other people's decisions. I do not personally believe that everyone should homeschool :no2 so it bothers me when people think PS is the best and only option for everyone. It seems if we were more open to each others choices rather than having an US vs. them mentality, it would be a welcome change :)

[SouthPaw]

:yes Natalie :clap

[mamahammer]

It seems if we were more open to each others choices rather than having an US vs. them mentality, it would be a welcome change :)


I will admit that this is one of the mental roadblocks I have to HSing. My initial introduction to HSing was through this and another AP message board, and the animosity towards public schools, public school education, and families who choose public schooling made me bristle to the point of not even listening to the advantages of HSing. I didn't want anything to do with HSing if it involved a hatred of PS :no2 I have sense met, online and IRL, some families who have convinced me that not all HSers feel this way, just as I have met PS families who aren't all anti-HS. I am thankful for that since it allowed me to begin exploring HSing with an open mind.

[cindergretta]

I believe deeply in the merits of hs'ing. I also believe PS has some disadvantages. I am a hs'er. That said, I am not a militant hs'er nor do I believe PS teachers, parents, students, etc., are evil or villainous or in any other way flawed. :no2 It really saddens me when our belief in something good comes at the expense of villifying something else. :(

I attend a church loaded with educators, at all levels. I find them to be committed and caring individuals. Period. I am a product of public schools and along my schooling journey I met some wonderful human beings who helped shape me and make me who I am today. :clap

[purplerose]

I think that for *some children* hs'ing can be just a disadvantage as ps can be to other children. Not every child will benefit from hs'ing, nor will every child benefit from ps. I was a ps teacher for 5 years. While the ps system definately has flaws.......it's not all to be blamed on the schools/teacher/etc. parents can be blamed as well. I had students who were disrespectful, didn't do anything in class, etc and when I'd call their parent to talk to them about this the parent was like "Not my child." And it was somehow always the teacher's fault. When the student was failed the parent threatened to sue the school district and the student was "passed" magically. Many parents just don't want to believe that their child can/is doing wrong. Now there are many ps teachers who aren't doing a good job. It's defiantely a double edged sword. :/

[CelticJourney]

Interesting...a couple of thoughts..

First, I agree with Natalie. The last thing we need is a deepening divide among sister educator. I have very good friends who are ps teachers and would have little problem with most of them teaching my children, but they work for a system that I have chosen to seperate from. For any child who enters their classrooms, they are a blessing.

That being said...I think it is great that the OP could come to her fellow homeschoolers to bring up an issue that involves us. It is important that we consider words of admonishment from within our fellowship. The only problem is that I have only seen such comments once or twice on the board, and NEVER in real life. I am not sure those comments represent the homeschool community as a whole or even a majority. If it is happening more regularly than than, please report it to a moderator. Gentleness and graciousness are to be the board norms, so please let a mod or admin know if you see someone posting against these standards.

As a committed PS educator married to a committed PS educator, I'd like to weigh in here, please. Did anyone ever consider the idea that some teachers feel a calling by God to teach in the PS system? Imagine what the complete abandonment by Christian educators would mean for the system. Have any of you ever thought about the dire straits our nation would fall into without SOME influence for good at that level?
Yes, the majority of us have considered those things. We do not make such decisions lightly and I am somewhat taken aback that you would think that we do. I'm all for sending adults into the Public School system, just not my children, thanks.

It has often been hurtful to me that some of you on this board seem to view all PS teachers in such a negative light.
Again, I can not defend such statements as I have never made them, but would encourage you to report such negative statements to a moderator.

[cindergretta]

Elizabeth, I think sometimes it is more an overall "tone" or "feel" to a post/thread than specific words that can be reported, so to speak. I'm really glad to see the subject brought up and to see all the understanding and compassion shown here. :grouphug

[Joanne]

The OP offers a good point. I'd add that the reasons people are employed in public education are varied.

I don't ever judge homeschoolers the way that PS teachers are judged on this board. Let's all try to maintain a little open-mindedness, please.

I'd like to remind everyone that this is a homeschooling board. It's offered because we've observed that when we make counter cultural choices, the avenues for support and understanding are limited. We come *here* to post, vent and seek like minded understanding. I will protect that need in this forum.

Many homeschoolers here *have indeed* experienced judgement, hurtful and inaccurate stereotyping and hostility. Please remember that most of us don't spend our "in person life" time talking about these issues. Our passion and vehemence behind the postings here present an honest but somewhat skewed picture of how we spend our time in real life.

This forum was not set up to be "open minded" if "open minded" means completely accepting of all educational choices. This forum was created knowing that for many homeschoolers, the choice to homeschool is inherently an anti-PS choice.

[CelticJourney]

"tone" or "feel" to a post/thread than specific words that can be reported

Well I understand that, but honestly I don't go into the non-vaxing forum with an expectation that there will be a good feeling towards vaxing or meat in the vegan forum. My point to my homeschooling sisters would be 'we have more to do than waste our energy focusing on the path not taken.'

[MamaMansa]

As a homeschooler, I think what PS teachers do is absolutely admirable. I, personally, could never do it. I do believe that I am a better teacher for my own children, but I certainly would never claim that my belief takes away from PS teachers as a whole. PS teachers are more educated in dealing with large groups of children, committed to the PS system and teaching, etc. PS teachers are obviously not in in it for the money. I once heard that garbage collectors make more than some teachers (which is outrageous IMO, and a completely different post). My father is a college professor, and he is the most dedicated Christian educator I know. He works long hours, goes above and beyond what is required of him, and will teach until they force him to retire. I really think 95% of PS educators are like that.

When we pulled our children out of PS, we met no resistance from the teachers. They were very supportive and encouraging. Our resistance came from the principle. He obviously saw it as two less children that would be funded in his district. He tried to discourage us and went as far as telling us that most homeschoolers in our city keep their children home so they don't have to "drive them to school everyday." (Which is an outrageous statement.) However, I am fully aware that this is NOT ALL administrators. We happened to come across one of the "bad eggs." I think you can find "bad eggs" in both the PS and HS'ing realms.

I think the villian (IMHO) is the PS "environment." SO many children have parents that are not involved and are not "actively" parenting them. The values of today's society have gone down the tubes. There is only so much a PS teacher can do about this. A PS teacher can try to create a loving learning environment, but that can be futile if she has to spend her days dealing with horrible behavior from a handful of students. I LOVED the PS teachers my kids had, but I was less than thrilled about their classmates. I volunteered regularly in their classrooms, and saw a very worn out teacher who had to deal with 30 5-year-old kids on her own, WITHOUT an aide (no funding). My DS came home from school everyday crying because some kid was punching him straight in the face day after day at recess. We ended up at the school constantly, talking to the teachers and principle. It's not that they weren't completely concerned and caring, but they just didn't have the funding for more than one playground monitor. My DD would come home spouting off profane statements that she learned from the other girls at school. She would often come home in tears because the kids at that school were just flat out evil in some cases. In 2nd grade, little girls should not have to deal with being told they "suck" and no one wants to be their friend.

I guess IRL, I don't know a lot of homeschoolers that put any blame on the teachers. It's the PS environment (ie. other children) that they are trying to avoid. I, personally, don't believe that my children are ready for some of the things thrown at PS kids these days.

Disclaimer: I should also add that not all PS are the way I've just described. I am fully aware of that. I'm sure many, many aren't. I'm sure there are many districts that are just fantastic. We just don't happen to live in one. Would I still homeschool if I lived in a better district? Almost definitely. But that is a decision we have made for our family. I respect all parents who make the decision to send their kids to PS. I don't think all public school is evil. I think parents have to make individual choices for their family. I think there is animosity towards PSers, just as there is animosity towards HSers. It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that the opinions of the minority affect the rest in that particular group of people.

Anyway, MY POINT! :giggle While I am definitely pro-homeschooling, that doesn't mean I think any less of good, hardworking, Christian PS teachers. Your job is very admirable and appreciated. :) My personal animosity towards PS has nothing to do with the teachers themselves. It goes well above that.....all the way up to the government level (funding, eliminating much needed programs, the "politics" that get brought in, etc). There's not much PS teachers can do about those things. :shrug

[Joanne]

Laura, great post. Thank you.

[AdrienneQW]

My personal belief is that the public school system is inherently, fundamentally, and irrevocably flawed. As a general rule, I don't think any child "belongs" in public school. I hope that doesn't mean that anyone would read me as being "anti-PS-teachers". I admire anyone who works hard for the benefit of children, period. While I believe the compulsory school system is beyond repair, I still laud the folks who do their best to make a difference within its limitations.

[Blue Aurora]

My personal belief is that the public school system is inherently, fundamentally, and irrevocably flawed. As a general rule, I don't think any child "belongs" in public school. I hope that doesn't mean that anyone would read me as being "anti-PS-teachers". I admire anyone who works hard for the benefit of children, period. While I believe the compulsory school system is beyond repair, I still laud the folks who do their best to make a difference within its limitations.





I completely agree. I am a 3rd generation public school teacher. My children will be homeschooled and I haven't even had a hint of criticism from my grandma or mom. I completely admire those who can still teach in the ps environment. I honestly don't think I could anymore b/c there is just too much wrong with the system.

[Rabbit]

I really do not mean to start a debate on the merits or demerits of PS or HS, or even compare the two. I mean only to say that no matter what else is going on with PS, the intentions of PS teachers are generally good.

I've never seen any post I would think to tell a moderator about. To me, it always seems more like the way urban legends get passed around, not any momma being hateful. Snopes.com doesn't cover this issue, so I wanted to write about it. That's all.

[Blue Aurora]

(((Natalie))) I agree with you. The average ps teacher isn't against homeschooling b/c of money at all. They're against homeschooling b/c that's what they are taught in school and they truly believe they are doing a good job. Alot of ps teachers though (my family included) are fed up and frustrated with the system as well these days.

[frenetic_turtle]

I really do not mean to start a debate on the merits or demerits of PS or HS, or even compare the two. I mean only to say that no matter what else is going on with PS, the intentions of PS teachers are generally good.


I've never seen any post I would think to tell a moderator about. To me, it always seems more like the way urban legends get passed around, not any momma being hateful. Snopes.com doesn't cover this issue, so I wanted to write about it. That's all.



Elizabeth, I think sometimes it is more an overall "tone" or "feel" to a post/thread than specific words that can be reported, so to speak. I'm really glad to see the subject brought up and to see all the understanding and compassion shown here. :grouphug


Natalie - I wasn't meaning to debate the issue. I merely wanted to reinforce the idea that it really isn't "us against them."

Kristy - Yes, thank you. There have never been any overtly nasty comments. There is, however, quite a bit of stereotyping.

Joanne - The open-mindedness I referred to was more a generosity of spirit toward our fellow educators. More of a "Let us support and pray for one another as we seek to educate these children." kind of thing.

Laura - your post was excellent. Thank you.

You all might wonder why I even read this forum if I don't HS. The answer is simple. Maybe I'll learn something from you all. I do "afterschooling" and "summer schooling" with my dc. So this seemed a natural place to visit. Also, I just loooove to teach and am always looking for new ideas. (I've got a few good ones myself. ;)) I have several homeschooling friends with whom I love to talk curriculum and teaching ideas.

Obviously some of you took my tone to be critical, but it indeed was not. There was absolutely no malice in my heart when I typed those words. I've reread my post several times and I really don't see any negativity towards HSers at all. Perhaps GCM isn't the right place for me. I'm all about harmony and encouragement. I just took (what I perceived to be) an opportunity to offer a perspective.

[purplerose]

I'm a little confused on the "money" thing though. I can't think of one ps teacher that *I* know of that goes into teaching for the "riches" they will make. My first year of teaching I made $24K..........far from lining my pockets with money! :rolleyes

I will say though that some schools and ESPECIALLY the administration will get bonuses for achieving certain levels/scores on tests.:banghead I remember when I taught ps and one year they were getting me about teaching stuff that was more focused on the test than the stated mandated curriculum and I refused. The other teachers were like "Well, what about our bonus"..........it was $700 after taxes. :rolleyes So it's not like teachers are rolling in dough!! :giggle

[booboo]

I don't think we should "lump" all ps teachers as being judgmental, etc. I've had my share of ps teachers and a retired one judging me to the point of blaming Piglet's adhd on homeschooling! (she's still a PG leader, aarrggh!) I have also met ps teachers who are for homeschooling. It's a surprise but there are some like that out there. It's like saying all Christians don't dance or listen to rock music. I dance. I love Switchfoot and POD (so do my kids!). I met a special ed teacher in the grocery store the other day who was all for what I'm doing. She was wearing a t-shirt with something about autism written on it. It may have been one of those homemade shirts, since it had handprints on it. This lady was so sweet to me and it turns out she lives in a different town where it's known in my area what a good school system it is for kids with special needs. It's like we were encouraging each other which was so nice! She said she considered homeschooling her children when they were younger. I don't know why she didn't but still I won't judge.

Maybe other ps teachers are not so bright as far as our kids go, but still isn't it wrong for them to tell us we shouldn't do what we're doing? I spend a few hours a week just preparing. And shed "why am I doing this" tears. Rabbit is terrified of crowds and she had a horrible time at ps. Yet even cashiers at Barnes & Noble have accused me of not being a "real" teacher. Shouldn't we show a little respect to each other in this way? :sigh

Purplerose, I don't know where you live, but in the northeast, teachers get paid a good amount, I'd say over $50,000 a year depending. I know in the southeast, they get less. I have a friend who teaches in the ps, in high school and she says a lot of the teachers there work 2 jobs just to get by. *shrug*

[BHope]

Purplerose, I don't know where you live, but in the northeast, teachers get paid a good amount, I'd say over $50,000 a year depending. I know in the southeast, they get less. I have a friend who teaches in the ps, in high school and she says a lot of the teachers there work 2 jobs just to get by. *shrug*


Teachers in this area usually get between $30,000 and $45,000. I wouldn't call that rolling in the dough. Private Christian school teachers often earn only $15,000 to $20,000. :no2 That's a shame, honestly.

[purplerose]

When I taught I was in NC. Then when I taught in NoVA I made a little bit more......$28. :rolleyes Even here in San Diego teachers start at like $34K which still isn't rolling in dough. But even in the Northeast making $50K really isn't that great though is it? Isn't it really expensive there? :think I know that here in SD teachers are all on WIC, food stamps and their own kids get the free/reduced lunch. So sad :yes2

[booboo]

Yeah, here in the northeast, it's very expensive. You can make around $40,000 a year and barely make it where I live. We're barely making it and I want out! :hissyfit And no, my dh isn't a teacher. It's just plain hard living out here. :help

[illinoismommy]

As a homeschooler, I think what PS teachers do is absolutely admirable. I, personally, could never do it. I do believe that I am a better teacher for my own children, but I certainly would never claim that my belief takes away from PS teachers as a whole. PS teachers are more educated in dealing with large groups of children, committed to the PS system and teaching, etc. PS teachers are obviously not in in it for the money. I once heard that garbage collectors make more than some teachers (which is outrageous IMO, and a completely different post). My father is a college professor, and he is the most dedicated Christian educator I know. He works long hours, goes above and beyond what is required of him, and will teach until they force him to retire. I really think 95% of PS educators are like that.

When we pulled our children out of PS, we met no resistance from the teachers. They were very supportive and encouraging. Our resistance came from the principle. He obviously saw it as two less children that would be funded in his district. He tried to discourage us and went as far as telling us that most homeschoolers in our city keep their children home so they don't have to "drive them to school everyday." (Which is an outrageous statement.) However, I am fully aware that this is NOT ALL administrators. We happened to come across one of the "bad eggs." I think you can find "bad eggs" in both the PS and HS'ing realms.

I think the villian (IMHO) is the PS "environment." SO many children have parents that are not involved and are not "actively" parenting them. The values of today's society have gone down the tubes. There is only so much a PS teacher can do about this. A PS teacher can try to create a loving learning environment, but that can be futile if she has to spend her days dealing with horrible behavior from a handful of students. I LOVED the PS teachers my kids had, but I was less than thrilled about their classmates. I volunteered regularly in their classrooms, and saw a very worn out teacher who had to deal with 30 5-year-old kids on her own, WITHOUT an aide (no funding). My DS came home from school everyday crying because some kid was punching him straight in the face day after day at recess. We ended up at the school constantly, talking to the teachers and principle. It's not that they weren't completely concerned and caring, but they just didn't have the funding for more than one playground monitor. My DD would come home spouting off profane statements that she learned from the other girls at school. She would often come home in tears because the kids at that school were just flat out evil in some cases. In 2nd grade, little girls should not have to deal with being told they "suck" and no one wants to be their friend.

I guess IRL, I don't know a lot of homeschoolers that put any blame on the teachers. It's the PS environment (ie. other children) that they are trying to avoid. I, personally, don't believe that my children are ready for some of the things thrown at PS kids these days.

Disclaimer: I should also add that not all PS are the way I've just described. I am fully aware of that. I'm sure many, many aren't. I'm sure there are many districts that are just fantastic. We just don't happen to live in one. Would I still homeschool if I lived in a better district? Almost definitely. But that is a decision we have made for our family. I respect all parents who make the decision to send their kids to PS. I don't think all public school is evil. I think parents have to make individual choices for their family. I think there is animosity towards PSers, just as there is animosity towards HSers. It's unfortunate. It's unfortunate that the opinions of the minority affect the rest in that particular group of people.

Anyway, MY POINT! :giggle While I am definitely pro-homeschooling, that doesn't mean I think any less of good, hardworking, Christian PS teachers. Your job is very admirable and appreciated. :) My personal animosity towards PS has nothing to do with the teachers themselves. It goes well above that.....all the way up to the government level (funding, eliminating much needed programs, the "politics" that get brought in, etc). There's not much PS teachers can do about those things. :shrug




:yes

In our case, DH and I feel that out desire to homeschool is an anti-public school choice.... but that doesn't mean I think less of the teachers who work in it.

My personal belief is that the public school system is inherently, fundamentally, and irrevocably flawed. As a general rule, I don't think any child "belongs" in public school. I hope that doesn't mean that anyone would read me as being "anti-PS-teachers". I admire anyone who works hard for the benefit of children, period.

:yes

[frenetic_turtle]

I have 15 years of teaching experience and I make $32,000/year. There aren't any Hummers sitting under the carport IYKWIM. :lol

[illinoismommy]

Teaching underpays. :yes2

[klpmommy]

I agree that teachers are underpaid & honestly under-appreciated. I am honestly glad that I am no longer teaching. I loved the kids (most of them ;) ), I loved the planning & prepping, I loved seeing the kids light up when they finally understood something. I could handle most of the parents with little difficulty. It is the whole environment that killed me & caused me to burn out. For example, I had one student that was in my third grade class in a very low-socio-economic school with a very high turn over rate. He started off doing horribly behavior wise, it was miserable. Then we worked together & finally connected in a wonderful way & he started to do much better. When the state mandated test came around he barely failed the math portion & totally bombed the reading portion. I hand picked his fourth grade teacher as someone I *knew* would connect with him & had already worked out how he & I could still work together since he & I had found success. It comes time for registration for the next year & we found out he had moved out of our school zone in to a neighboring school zone (same school district, school "next door"). The mom requests for him to remain in our school b/c she saw so much success with me & saw the growth & finally he was interested in coming to school. I go in to the admin office to "fight" for him to be able to stay. The ONLY question the principal asked (she had the power to approve his staying at our school) is "What were his TAAS scores?" The request was denied. I was so upset. The ONLY reason he was denied was his test scores. The principal knew how much success he had with me & knew that we were going to continue to work together the following year. But the TEST was king. I tried to contact the teacher he had for 4th grade but she never wanted to talk to me about him. :mad :cry

[Firebird Rising]

My parents are both teachers. My dad's been teaching for over 30 years, my mom for 20. They are in CA and get paid well. They are both in the poorest schools in their district. They feel like they are making a difference. They are totally supportive of unschooling for DS and really excited about being around him more to see it in action once he gets older.

Jen D.

[Dana Joy]

They are in CA and get paid well.
In CA??? Paid well????
http://certificated.lausd.k12.ca.us/Research/documents/SalaryTables_0607/ltable.pdf here is the salary table for lausd.
the points along the left have to do with units of education above and beyond a credential. across the top is years of service.
Starting pay is 39,788- in the LA area this is not much at all.
If you work over 10 years and have a phD you top off at 88,779- but believe me it is a rare teacher that gets a phD.
The average teacher in LAUSD makes 62,000- in the LA area that is barely making it.

[LittleSweetPeas]

I suppose I'm a minority. I am a former PS teacher who has made the decision to keep her kids OUT of traditional PS because of my experiences with seeing other teachers teach, with the curriculum, with the standards, with the children.

When I am teaching I feel like I'm making a difference in the lives of those children who are there. But do I think its the best place for children educationally? Not any longer. JMHO.

And I started out at $39K per year in CA. I have a difficult time with people complaining about teacher's salaries. We CHOSE a low-paying profession. We also worked 180 days of the year. We also had the option of checking out after 6 hours and completing our work at home. I only taught 5 out of 6 periods a day since it was middle school which meant that even if I put in extra time it was really only an 8 hour day and I had two TA's during the day to help me with misc. tasks. Nothing compared to the engineers I know who are working 12-14 hours per day. I am by no means saying that teachers arent a hard working bunch because they truly are. But it has always bothered me that the very people who chose to join a low-paying profession which only works half the working year complain about the pay.

Needless to say, the union and I didnt see eye to eye. :) I just wanted to throw out another PS teacher's experience. And I am very aware that my experience in my school may be very different from other's experiences in other schools. :yes

[klpmommy]

I suppose I'm a minority. I am a former PS teacher who has made the decision to keep her kids OUT of traditional PS because of my experiences with seeing other teachers teach, with the curriculum, with the standards, with the children.

That's me, too. Except is was the admin & the TEST that killed me more than anything else, although there were a few kids that really made my life hard.

I have a difficult time with people complaining about teacher's salaries. We CHOSE a low-paying profession. We also worked 180 days of the year. We also had the option of checking out after 6 hours and completing our work at home. I only taught 5 out of 6 periods a day since it was middle school which meant that even if I put in extra time it was really only an 8 hour day and I had two TA's during the day to help me with misc. tasks. Nothing compared to the engineers I know who are working 12-14 hours per day. I am by no means saying that teachers arent a hard working bunch because they truly are. But it has always bothered me that the very people who chose to join a low-paying profession which only works half the working year complain about the pay.

Yes, I chose a low paying salary. I felt it was the right place for me & really believed I made a difference in a few students' lives. However, for me to get the planning done for my classes (2nd - 4th grade- I taught all subject areas) & get the grading done as well as conferences, etc, I was at school before 7am & left usually after 5pm. That includes the *lovely* weekly staff meeting that took at least two hours, the required team (grade level) meeting that was also once a week that took up an entire planning period, making phone calls during lunch to parents, conferencing with kids at lunch, meeting with parents at *their* convenience & the many, many IEP & ESL meetings that I had to attend on a very regular basis. Add into all the the mandatory staff meetings that were in the summer and I was there far more than "minimum". And with very few exceptions every elem teacher I knew in nine years in the PS system & having a lot of friends who also teach elem-that is the norm. My FIL is a bilingual elem teacher in Dallas & he is at work usually 12 hour days just trying to get lesson plans, grading & required meetings. It is crazy.

Anyway, just wanted to throw out my perspective. But I have no desire to ever put my kids in PS. I knew some *excellent* teachers who I would love for my kids to experience, but I don't want them to experience them in the PS setting, if that makes sense.

[illinoismommy]

you know every time I see this title I admit I do think "well actually, it does" .... I mean let's be realistic, supply and demand, if everyone started homeschooling...... :shifty

[Soliloquy]

I'm late jumping in here but I wanted to share that I got my BA in education at Cardinal Stritch Univ and all of my instructors there thought HSing was a wonderful option for families and never hesitated to say so. I taught PS for 3 years and never came across a negative attitude toward HSing. I have met some cranky PS teachers who were really into the union stuff (not at my school, thoughm we didn't have a union :tu) and were all about their benefits and such but all of my colleagues were very dedicated.

I'm a former PS teacher who now 100% supports unschooling. :)


you know every time I see this title I admit I do think "well actually, it does" .... I mean let's be realistic, supply and demand, if everyone started homeschooling...... :shifty


but everyone NEVER will start HSing--not even the majority. It just will never happen. The majority of parents will use PS because they have to (financial reasons), or because they believe it's best for their child, or because they simply don't want to spend that much time w/ their own DC.

[illinoismommy]

yeah it won't happen, but it still pops into my mind :)

[AngelaVA]

I enjoyed reading this post and everyone's thoughts on it. I was a PS elementary teacher for 7 years and I would like to homeschool my DD and any other children at least until high school if I can talk DH into it. I totally support homeschooling, private schools and public schools. I have seen each of these work for different families and I have also seen each of them not work for different families. Part of the reason I would like to HS DD is because I have seen some terrible teacher and learning and environments and I have even seen a really popular teacher who was winning awards and had the PTA members all fighting to get their kids in her class when in truth, she was doing a terrible job and just was great at putting on the horse and pony show for the public. But I have also seen children living in homeless shelters or whose parents spoke no English and couldn't help them at all go from not even being able to write their name to reading fluently in a single school year. I have seen parents who said they were homeschooling and their kids did nothing but sit in front of the tv all day and never learned to read, then the parents get sick of having them at home and pack them off to public school and get angry at the teachers when they express concern at them being behind. I have seen other parents who homeschooled children went on to college miles ahead of their peers who went to the best prep schools. I really think that the beauty of this situation lies in the fact that we do have a choice, and a responsiblity, to what is best for our own children. I also, for one, I am very thankful that in this time and place I do have a choice.

[Firebird Rising]

They are in CA and get paid well.
In CA??? Paid well????
http://certificated.lausd.k12.ca.us/Research/documents/SalaryTables_0607/ltable.pdf here is the salary table for lausd.
the points along the left have to do with units of education above and beyond a credential. across the top is years of service.
Starting pay is 39,788- in the LA area this is not much at all.
If you work over 10 years and have a phD you top off at 88,779- but believe me it is a rare teacher that gets a phD.
The average teacher in LAUSD makes 62,000- in the LA area that is barely making it.


Honestly, they are in the northern CA area and I think they're making 80,000+ each. They get to work around 7:45 each morning and are usually gone by 4 in the afternoon. They rarely take work home and feel that the summers and vacations that they get more than make up for the pay. They both are credentialed and have some extra units of education, my mom has special training in world history. She has often been overqualified for jobs that she applies for. She's a 6th grade teacher. My dad teaches high school algebra.

They feel they live very comfortably and aren't for want of anything, really.

Jen D.

[Rabbit]

Perhaps the argument over whether or not teachers are well paid in various places across the country would be better served by its own thread.

[frenetic_turtle]

Y
I enjoyed reading this post and everyone's thoughts on it. I was a PS elementary teacher for 7 years and I would like to homeschool my DD and any other children at least until high school if I can talk DH into it. I totally support homeschooling, private schools and public schools. I have seen each of these work for different families and I have also seen each of them not work for different families. Part of the reason I would like to HS DD is because I have seen some terrible teacher and learning and environments and I have even seen a really popular teacher who was winning awards and had the PTA members all fighting to get their kids in her class when in truth, she was doing a terrible job and just was great at putting on the horse and pony show for the public. But I have also seen children living in homeless shelters or whose parents spoke no English and couldn't help them at all go from not even being able to write their name to reading fluently in a single school year. I have seen parents who said they were homeschooling and their kids did nothing but sit in front of the tv all day and never learned to read, then the parents get sick of having them at home and pack them off to public school and get angry at the teachers when they express concern at them being behind. I have seen other parents who homeschooled children went on to college miles ahead of their peers who went to the best prep schools. I really think that the beauty of this situation lies in the fact that we do have a choice, and a responsiblity, to what is best for our own children. I also, for one, I am very thankful that in this time and place I do have a choice.


Yeah, exactly what Angela said. I completely agree with everything, especially the last sentence.

Yes, Natalie, I think you're right about the different thread. Thank you.

[LittleSweetPeas]

klpmommy--yep, teaching elementary is a very different workload than middle or high school. That's why I've told DH I'll never do it. I had 2.5 subjects to teach (no "real" curriculum for the reading...sigh) so I had two real preps per day and just had to teach it in three cycles. Period 1/2 social studies and language arts, Period 3 prep, Period 4 social studies only, Lunch, Period 5/6 social studies and language arts. Very different from teaching 6 subjects per day to a class of 30 second graders without prep time or release time.

I think the pay issue is going to be different for every teacher. My point was only that we all got our choice and continue to choose throughout our teaching careers. For those who want more money the options are always there in picking up extra duty, summer school, administrator positions, more classes, etc.

However, who wouldn't want to get paid more??? But we knew going in we were destined for a work life of little pay and recognition and more than likely did it as our calling (or maybe a ministry) to children.

[Dana Joy]

spin off thread here
http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=111506.0