Ugh! Help! Homeschooling and discipline for the discipline challenged...

[birthchic]

I have two issues that I really just don't know how to handle in a gentle way. First, my 9 year old son will NOT stay on task to do his math everyday. He will stay on task and not daydream for all the rest of his school work- but not his math. He is good at math, he does great on all his tests- he just takes forever. Now this wouldn't be a big deal if it didn't disrupt the entire flow of the day--and also if I didn't feel like the time it takes him on his math destroys his concentration to really learn the rest of his school work (as opposed to merely finishing it). I have him do it first thing, right now I am letting him pick on problem to skip each day. I feel like I have just tried everything!!! I end up just yelling and naggin him about it--and I so don't want that to be our relationship OR negatively affect his attitudes about learning or about math.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Any good positive discipline hints? Everything I come up with seems really punitive. Although my latest crusade is to use a code word to remind him when he needs it, that we are working on staying on task, but that is too recent to know if it is yielding results...

Secondly- my 6 year old daughter will often not give her best effort on her school work. She just wants to get it done-- but at the same time when it comes to something she doesn't like....she also will just check out. However- she doesn't just day dream....she sucks everybody in- talking to her older brother, playing with the toddler...anything except doing her work. I just have absolutely no idea how to discipline this...

How do I get them on board? Being pregnant and having a newbaby have like totally zapped my creative powers and I just, truly have no idea what to even try....

[Savmom]

When my ds gets distracted, I revamp our approach. Sometimes just changing where we homeschool helps--like heaping pillows on the bed, sitting outside at the picnic table or camping under a table is fun. Also, for my ds, distraction=boredom. If he understands the math, maybe he needs something more challenging. Also, math can best be taught by experiencing it in every day life (like cooking for example). There are tons of websites ds & dd frequent that are much more fun than traditional math schoolwork and help to reinforce what they know and introduce new concepts.


My dd is 4.5 and I know we will not begin doing traditional school-type work until she is 7 or so. It could be that she is overwhelmed by the material you are presenting.


What curriculum are you using?

Cindy

[birthchic]

I could certainly try mixing it up with our location --if nothing else to add aliitle bit of fun. It's just difficult because I also have young children, too- and so something like under the table, etc. would likely ensure he got no work done.

I know the math worksheet is probably not 'fun' (He's doing Abeka math) --however, there is a big part of me that thinks that there is a positive side to persevering anyway. Certainly not all work and formal education is fun or even engaging all the time. Math takes repetition- that's sort of the nature of the beast. We do lots of practical math, too--but he still needs to leatn his times tables and long division. We were going to a co-op where my husband was teaching geometry and Calculus/pre-Calculus/trig- mostly to hig schoolers who had been homeschooled for most of their lives...and these kids seriously did not have mastery of the subject. They were very poor math students. I think maybe I am projecting too much into the future LOL! It's a flaw of mine.

I don't know - with my daughter it's more complicated....her work is probably too easy for her, but she is also very extroverted. However- what I would like to do is to have their quickie formal schooling and then do other cool stuff they love or are interested in. If I could just convince them to get done! My daughter's work, if she is not distracted takes about an hour. Much of it is oral and done with me- it's the few things that don'y involve me where she falters--but I can't do it all with her. My son's work takes about 90 min-2 hours total- that also includes some oral things and reading. However they are stretching it out so that it takes waaaay longer, and I am so exhausted and frustrated by the end of it- I don't want to do anything else!!

I just know homeschooling has to be more fun than this. There has to be a reason why most homeschooling moms love it...

[Savmom]

May I suggest you check here (http://www.cathyduffyreviews.com/index.html) before you do anything else? I thought the same way you do when I first started to hs, and after I realized I was striving much too hard to make sure my kids were prepared for college by the time they were 10, I relaxed a little and started teaching them every subject by using material the fit their learning styles & aroused their curiosity. Buy or check out the book 100 Top Picks for Homeschool Curriculum by Cathy Duffy. I can hear so much of my old self in your post that I KNOW the book will change how you hs. Math does NOT need to be drilled into a child's head by rote memorization or repetitious worksheets. I learned Calculus & Trigonometry without any textbooks or worksheets at all (I was a hs drop-out who hated math) so I know math can be taught without spending hours pouring over Abeka workbooks. We tried Abeka and it caused us to come very close to sending ds back to ps because I hated it as much as he did. If you engage their minds NOW, while they are young, and show them that ALL learning can be interesting, exciting and rewarding, they will not mind the "work" part of it later on.

FWIW, I have been to a HS co-op where Trig & Calc were being taught to homeschoolers and there was not a text/work book in sight.

Life is about learning, instilling into our dc a quest for knowledge that never ends, and is not required to be a chore. That is the reason most kids fail to thrive in ps--it's boring, meaningless, and too repetitious. HS is about engaging our dc's minds with the endless possibilities of learning about anything/everything they want while adding in the 3 R's along side in a manner that suits their needs. There are hundreds of curriculums (if you need one) that appeal to every type of learner. The key is discovering HOW they learn so you can teach without frustration on either side. It is difficult to teach a "Wiggly Willy" with "Perfect Paula" material (get the book and you will know EXACTLY what I mean ;) )

I would type more, but it is past bedtime for dd.

Cindy

[Singingmom]

My ds and I reached a crisis point with his math several years ago, and we were using Abeka.  Abeka is tough!  With sooo much practice for each concept/lesson.  What changed everything for us was me doing a lot of praying and reading, in that order.  I ended up learning about Charlotte Mason and her philosophies (many of which I gratefully adopted as my own).  One thing she taught was to use short lessons.  She even talks about how long, drawn out lessons can create the habit of dawdling and inattention.  I have been surprised by how my ds will retain as much when he's done 10 problems as he will when the work has dragged out for an hour.  And I retain much more of my sanity!  ;)

Your 6 yo is still very young.  I know it's frustrating for you when you see how smart and capable she is, but if the reality is that she's not doing well with a certain approach or curriculum, it may be time for a change.  If her personality is verbal or physical, you'll need to take that into account rather than trying to fit her personality into a certain style or curriculum. If she's distractible, short lessons may be important for her, too.

[Mother Duck]

I'm mostly subbing to this topic as we have dealt with these issues in the past and now unschool, but would like to have a little more structure.

[SueQ]

I understand. My son(8) loves math but was losing the love for it. I tried different programs and he would get to the place where he would start hating it and say, "It's too hard." So we are now doing hands on math and playing math games. We read living books on math (This (http://www.livingmath.net/) site is helpful for that.) which I find in my library. Ds is picking up things from doing math this way. Oh and we don't use worksheets anymore. I do math orally and let ds use manipulative to figure things out if he needs to. Today he out of the blue said, "150+150=300" Dh was shocked that ds figured it out on his own in his head. I do see ds sitting down and using paper to figure out problems so he does know how to work them on paper as well. Maybe you could use the problems in Abeka math but do them orally. Write them on cards and pull out a game board and when he draws the card, he will say the answer and go that number of spaces. (My ds loves doing this and it teaches him the math facts.)

I can't help with suggestions for your 6 yo because our style of schooling is different and we have very little seat work. :hug2

[birthchic]

Thank you all so, so, so much for talking through this with me! Savmom- I will check out that book! So my short term solution is going to be to talk through the new concepts and have him do all of those problems (lots of them we can often do orally) and then just one of each kind of review problem...

I don't want to make an entire overhaul at this point in the year. But I think I need to start really praying and investigating for next year. I struggle because- while I know that my kids would really love everything to be a game, etc. ...I just cannot get it together enough to find the energy, creativity or time to do the preparation for that kind of stuff. How do you all do it??

Do you think it askew to want a balance of a bit of more traditional school work and then other things which are more tailored to their particular styles, interests, and personalities? I am having a hard time thinking of abandoning all sense of the traditional....

Overall my kids really love learning- my son loves it and spends most of his day studying whatever it is he is into at the moment (right now it's space/time and the universe). With him though- it's just this one area- and I guess it really bugs me, that he simply refuses (that's how it feels- but I am sure it's not that simple) to just do this one thing that he doesn't "like".

Right now I am ready to kill him- he just is sitting there staring off into space thinking about whatever- reusing to do the five problems I've reduced his math down to for the day :no2...I think it bugs me because it seriously seems like a character flaw and not a learning issue....

[Singingmom]

I can't give up all seat work either, and don't think that's necessarily the answer. My boys are required in NC to take a standardized test each year, and they need the pencil/paper practice to be comfortable with that. (Although I hate to admit that's my reasoning). For me it's been important to find a balance between requiring them to stretch themselves, and easing up with the heavy load. (I was a PS teacher before I had my kids, and it was a real struggle for me to leave behind some of what I thought was good, but turned out to be detrimental in homeschooling.)

One year I had game day every Fri. for math, and did modified workbook pages the other days. That really tickled my kids. Start slow if you need to. My ds's attitude changed when I lightened up, and the scene you described where he balks at 5 problems (which happened all the time in my house, complete with tears) didn't happen nearly as much.

[birthchic]

I can't give up all seat work either, and don't think that's necessarily the answer. My boys are required in NC to take a standardized test each year, and they need the pencil/paper practice to be comfortable with that. (Although I hate to admit that's my reasoning). For me it's been important to find a balance between requiring them to stretch themselves, and easing up with the heavy load. (I was a PS teacher before I had my kids, and it was a real struggle for me to leave behind some of what I thought was good, but turned out to be detrimental in homeschooling.)

One year I had game day every Fri. for math, and did modified workbook pages the other days. That really tickled my kids. Start slow if you need to. My ds's attitude changed when I lightened up, and the scene you described where he balks at 5 problems (which happened all the time in my house, complete with tears) didn't happen nearly as much.
How did you change your attitude? When you say you lightened up- what did that mean for you?

[Singingmom]

For me, the breaking point was in March of that year, and I actually threw out all the workbooks (he was crying over everything by that point, not just math) and ended the school year, feeling like a miserable failure. I cried and prayed and soon my SIL lent me two books...A Charlotte Mason Companion by Karen Andreola and Educating the Whole Hearted Child by the Clarksons. Reading them changed my whole outlook, my goals for my children, and they changed me. Well, the Holy Spirit did that, but those books were the tools he used. That was my big change in attitude. For me it involved embracing a life style of learning, as opposed to relying on textbooks and workbooks to teach my kids in the "traditional" way I had been taught myself. The way I taught language and most other things became more natural and I now teach grammar and spelling from the kids' own writing and what we're reading together (although I'm seeing a need for more formal help in spelling) and it's working really well. I have more trouble knowing how to teach math naturally with older children, so I still rely pretty heavily on the curric. Pushing out the tedious and time consuming workbooks also created time for studying things like classical music and art which I'm learning about along with the kids.

Lightening up meant that I no longer required the math workbook page to be completed in fear that the math police would come to my door. ;) I might have him do only odd numbers or draw a line where he could stop in each section, or skip pages all together. Or set the timer for 15 min., and then he'd be done. We would have game day once a week or so where we played Yahtzee or Monopoly (Bird-opoly in our case) or dice games, etc. It meant that I could more confidently move along at my kids' pace, even if that didn't meet a curric. company's guidelines (one of the big reasons I decided to homeschool in the first place, but I had forgotten that somewhere along the way.)

I hope some of this helps. Your journey will look different from mine of course, but I hope it's a great one.

[SueQ]

I can't give up all seat work either, and don't think that's necessarily the answer. My boys are required in NC to take a standardized test each year, and they need the pencil/paper practice to be comfortable with that. (Although I hate to admit that's my reasoning).

I understand we live in PA and once a child turns 8 we have to:
File a notarized affidavit with the local superintendent prior to start of home school and annually by August 1st
Maintain a portfolio of materials used, work done, standardized test results in grades 3, 5, and 8, and a written evaluation completed by June 30 of each year
Have an evaluator evaluate our child each year.

But one can be a relaxed homeschooler, not do a lot of seat work and still comply with our states strict homeschooling laws. It used to scare me but after talking to alot of people, subscribing to an unschooling email list of people from our state and meeting an evaluator who is very relaxed I saw that I was doing myself and my child a disfavor by dwelling on the law and schooling my child out of fear. When I relaxed my child relaxed.

The above is my situation. Each child and family is different some children and families seem to thrive in a school-at-home atmosphere. And love seat work. But other children don't. IF your child is one that doesn't, please don't let the fear of homeschool laws keep you from homeschooling in a way that you feel is best for your child. :heart

If you feel God leading you and your family to do seat work and your children are thriving and enjoying it, that is one thing but if you are doing it because you are afraid of tests and such then that is another. :hug2 :heart There is a way to test, do record keeping, evaluations, etc and still have a relaxed homeschool. I bet there are unschoolers in your state. Find them and chat with them. I am not an true unschooler but they really helped me and I gained so much wisdom from them. ;)

[IslandMama]

I just wanted to add that my 12 yo dd hated math (it's tough for her) when we were using Saxon. We did daily lessons, drills that took at least 1 hr to do... It was such a struggle. She flat out refused to do it! Then we switched curriculum and our approach, and though she doesn't love math, she tolerates it, and the complaining is next to none. My goals now for my dc are that they LEARN...not the quantity of work, but the quality. When they get it, I tell them they can stop. I've relaxed alot more now... I did followed CM principles and have incorporated using literature (Well Trained Mind) which is definitely rigorous, but more enjoyable for my dc. My 6 yo doesn't do hardly any seat work (a few math worksheets and copy work is all) and she is learning so much! We do short lessons and read alot. I've compared her to other friend's kids her age (I know, bad mommy :O) and she is at or above their level in reading, math, writing... My advice is to first, take a deep breath and relax... :hug Then do tons of research to find what you think will be a great fit for your dc and what will help them learn. Incorporate changes slowly, maybe for a few subjects first (that's what we did). On tough days, I have the kids just read or play online computer games that are educational. A while back there was a thread that talked about mastery and spiral approaches to math... I'm not sure what abeka is, but we use a mastery curriculum, and dc only work on one concept a week (more or less). This has brought down the frustration tremendously... And ask alot of questions here. I've learned so much from this forum! :heart

[birthchic]

Thank you all so much for your help. :hug2 We do a lot of Charlotte Mason oriented learning- but I am going to make more of an effort to put those things first. Poking around in here, too- I read the math thread from a little bit ago...and ordered the appropriate Ray's Arithmetic book- to see if that doesn't suit my son better. (So much for not changing in the middle of the year! :shifty)

Overall, too, I think we just really need to have more fun. It's something I have had a really hard time with as a mom. It's exacerbated by seeming no nearly always having a baby or being pregnant, because I can't play and roughhouse the way which comes most naturally to me. I swear it's like there's a record playing in my head saying "This is going to be such a huge mess to clean up....." The entire time we are doing anything. I think it's time to figure out how to break that record....as well as not taking it all so seriously!

[Katigre]

I would ditch the Abeka - it is a lot of busy work, a lot of repetition, a lot of seat work, and it can burn kids out on learning.

[illinoismommy]

I would ditch the Abeka - it is a lot of busy work, a lot of repetition, a lot of seat work, and it can burn kids out on learning.


I've heard that a lot! My initial thought upon reading..... it sounds like hes just bored with the busy-work.... why not give him less problems so long as he can demonstrate proficiency? In college, you very rarely have to turn in "homework"... you just have to demonstrate proficiency on tests and occasional homework. So you'd still be preparing him for college.

Same thing for daughter.... sounds bored.

As a child, I hated having to do school work when I already knew the answer, happens with the "smart" kids.... :popcorn