“A philosopher, an orator, and two Rabbis walk into the day care center. . . .”

[cklewis]

This is cross-posted from my blog (http://www.drslewis.org/camille/?p=438). I'm reading through Marcia Bunge's The Child in Christian Thought (http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Thought-Religion-Marriage-Family/dp/0802846939/sr=1-6/qid=1170476231/ref=sr_1_6/105-0409491-9442046?ie=UTF8&s=books) recommended by TulipMama. :tu

_________________________________________________

“A philosopher, an orator, and two Rabbis walk into the day care center. . . .”

And who sticks around to play with the kids while the other two sourpusses can only flare their nostrils in disgust? According to Judith M. Gundry-Volf, hands down the Rabbis. She compares the ancient near-Eastern attitudes toward children, and I’m a tad flabbergasted that the Graeco-Roman ways sound so familar.

To the Greek, a child was weak and deficient. He couldn’t talk, think, or take care of himself. The child was simply an underdeveloped human, a social drain. The child in Greece and Rome was equal to the slave, occupying the lowest rung of the cultural ladder. Cicero, too, commented that childhood, “the thing itself cannot be praised, only its potential.” Childhood wasn’t a time to be admired and relished, but simply endured.

And so their brutal practices toward the child make sense. In Rome, the father had complete and entire authority over the child’s life. He could capriciously decide to recognize and raise it or “cast it out.” Sometimes ne'er-do-wells would pick up these newborns and raise them as slaves or worse. Think of the brutal killings in Egypt and under Herod’s reign. These crimes cut especially deep into the Hebrew soul. Gundry-Volf points out that the practice of casting out newborns was so prominent in the Near East, that everyone at the time was surprised that the Jews didn’t do it.

For the Jews, the child participated in God’s Promise. “Children were thus members of God’s covenant with Israel–in rabbinic teaching, even those still in the womb–and it was expected that they would assume covenantal responsibilities” (35). Now there are stories in Hellenic culture about generous souls that take in these foundlings. But there’s one major difference between those legends and what Mark describes in his Gospel:

While Plutarch and Diodorus depict memorable or legendary women as taking children into their arms and as exemplary in this respect for other women, Mark depicts Jesus, a man, taking a little child into his arms as an example for his male disciples in particular, and all disciples in general.. . . . Jesus thus redefines the service of children as a sign of greatness for all disciples. What appeared to be an undistinguished activity–care for children, belonging to the domain of women, similarly marginalized people–becomes a prime way for all disciples to demonstrate the greatness that corresponds to the reign of God (44).

So for Christ, the child was not just the recipient of God’s blessing, not just the model for the kingdom, but also His representatives of mercy! Gundry-Volf wonders if it’s because children were not expected to keep the Law in the least that Christ features their faith alone. They just enjoy their friendship with Christ without pretense or expectation.

While the Greeks and Romans hear children’s words as silly, Christ hears praise to God and from God in their words. While the Greeks and Romans see children as inadequate, Paul sees them as holy. In Colossians and Ephesians, both, children are fellow members of the Church, deserving of respect and kindness.

When the Greeks and Romans look at a child, they see, at best, disposable property and, at worst, a burden. But Paul sees a fellow Christian. And Christ sees a perfect believer, unencumbered by social mores and legal burdens.

C

[J3K]

:rockon :rockon :rockon I knew I liked that Jesus dude.

[arwen_tiw]

:rockon :rockon :rockon I knew I liked that Jesus dude.


:giggle

:tu :heart

[Maggie]

Interesting! Thanks for sharing!

[emmalouise]

Gah! I think it should read Greek/Roman philosopher. Hrmph! :P~ :shifty

[Wonder Woman]

:amen

[mom2threePKs]

Well, honestly, when I read the title and the author I was practically rubbing my hands together in anticipation of a really great joke.... :shifty

But the scholarly historical and social expectations and perceptions of children were really enlightening. :) Sounds like an excellent book.

Magan

[akmyilee]

Wow.......that is awesome.

[Katherine]

:rockon that's awesome!! put a smile on my face this morning. :)

[TulipMama]

Excellent thoughts!

(Oh, and I got through interlibrary loan and then ordered through Amazon, based I believe on your recommendation, "When Children Became People." I'm looking forward to reading it. . .)

[ArmsOfLove]

I want in on this loopedy loop of good book recommendations :P~

[cklewis]

I want in on this loopedy loop of good book recommendations :P~


This first chapter was cool. I mean, I kept saying, "OF COURSE!" :doh And the way they were describing Roman fathers, :( I couldn't help but this of Alice Miller and, of course, Ezzo.

The abandonment, "casting out" thing. :( I think she said something like, "The Romans heard in baby's cries an annoyance." And she went on to describe their abandoment (CIO?). But she frames Jesus as saying that He heard praise to AND FROM God in the infants. :wow What a dramatic difference!

Oh, my dear Gavin is praising right now. . . . ;)

C

[Can Dance]

Can I borrow this for my blog if I give you credit? that is SO AMAZINGLY thought provoking. I love stuff like this.

oh yeah, and I also bought When Children Became People, we could discuss that one in another thread for everyone else who has read it.

[Chris3jam]

I have that book. . .perhaps I should start reading it? :shifty

You know... . .. does that mean that the Greek and Roman influences and thought that tends to pervade American minds is the root of this idea that children are burdens? *Need* to be spanked? *Need* to 'learn to self-soothe'? Even though we call them blessings. . . .we also see them as "evil", infused with a horrible evil "sin" nature? I understand that the Bible says we are born in Adam. . .with a sin nature. . .. ..but. . . I think we've taken it to extreme. . .. .

[cklewis]

Can I borrow this for my blog if I give you credit? that is SO AMAZINGLY thought provoking. I love stuff like this.

:grin Sure!!


I have that book. . .perhaps I should start reading it? :shifty

You know... . .. does that mean that the Greek and Roman influences and thought that tends to pervade American minds is the root of this idea that children are burdens? *Need* to be spanked? *Need* to 'learn to self-soothe'? Even though we call them blessings. . . .we also see them as "evil", infused with a horrible evil "sin" nature? I understand that the Bible says we are born in Adam. . .with a sin nature. . .. ..but. . . I think we've taken it to extreme. . .. .


seems so. . . . :think

:nak

[J3K]

Oh, my dear Gavin is praising right now.

:laughtears

When they reached the mumbling stage , the silly sounds they'd make....I'd tell people my kids "were speaking in tongues". :shifty

[Rabbit]

Hey, that may be more true than you know, at least with my Samantha. She was born perfectly fluent in a language nobody else spoke, and she has spoken it profusely, with fervor, with meaning, with emotion, and she has not in the least appreciated -having- to learn English for the sake of her poor, dim parents. Simon seems to have been born with normal language skills, and doesn't speak whatever this was Samantha was speaking, at least not in front of me.

[kwisie]

Oh, my dear Gavin is praising right now.

:laughtears

When they reached the mumbling stage , the silly sounds they'd make....I'd tell people my kids "were speaking in tongues". :shifty


:laughtears at both of you!

ETA: I re-read this, and it doesn't come across like I intended. I was laughing because I thought those were very cute things to say, not that I was actually laughing at you. :O

[TulipMama]

Have you gotten to the Jonathan Edwards chapter yet? *Grin* Totally added to my Reformed thinking ---> GBD thinking view!

[cklewis]

:grin Can't wait!

One of my professors from IU is mentioned in the acknowkedgements. He's the prof for whom I did that Ezzo research in 1999. :giggle I have a mind to write him and tell him about where I am and all. I dunno. . . . It may be silly. He's at Hahhvard!

C

[TulipMama]

What Ezzo research in '99? (You can pm me if you want, since we are veeeeeerrrrring OT. . .

[ArmsOfLove]

Hey, that may be more true than you know, at least with my Samantha. She was born perfectly fluent in a language nobody else spoke, and she has spoken it profusely, with fervor, with meaning, with emotion, and she has not in the least appreciated -having- to learn English for the sake of her poor, dim parents. Simon seems to have been born with normal language skills, and doesn't speak whatever this was Samantha was speaking, at least not in front of me.
Born with the gift of Tongues--that's awesome :heart

[cklewis]

Nah. . . . It's my thread, I guess. I haven't told you this story?

Sigh. . . . I was a ph.d. student at IU taking "Children and Religion" for my minor in American Studies. Robert Orsi was my teacher. he was a whiz at facillitating discussion. Best I've ever seen.

Anyway, here I am wanting to research american separatists. I have to find someone/thing dealing with children. Ezzo was in the middle of a big stink. Orsi was into ethnography, and he pushed for me to do an ethnography on those who use Ezzo. :scratch It was my first attempt at doing something scholarly with "my own." And we all know how WELL that's turning out for me. :/

I started to read and got way over my head. so much stuff. and i couldn't even tackle the medical stuff or the debate stuff. I tip-toed into the ivillage debate board and ran away. couldn't take it all in. i bet you were there, tm.

so i just interviewed 5 mamas who ezzoed and why. i presented a very favorable portrayal, and i think it disappointed him. he wanted more. he knew it was wrong, i think. he wanted me to find it wrong too.

i met fourbzboysmom during that though!! :tu

anyway, the last class day he took us all out for pizza. someone teased me about not drinking and they giggled about me being from bju. good-naturedly. they were always nice to me. he didn't know. he just sat there :jawdrop for several minutes. He's catholic.

So i think about him a lot. he influenced me after that class. i think about him. but i don't want to gush. i dunno. . . .

c

[Rabbit]

Hey, that may be more true than you know, at least with my Samantha. She was born perfectly fluent in a language nobody else spoke, and she has spoken it profusely, with fervor, with meaning, with emotion, and she has not in the least appreciated -having- to learn English for the sake of her poor, dim parents. Simon seems to have been born with normal language skills, and doesn't speak whatever this was Samantha was speaking, at least not in front of me.
Born with the gift of Tongues--that's awesome :heart


She could stick her face into another child;s face, touch them on the knee, and speak, even when she was an itty bitty in arms baby. Some looked at her like she was an alien, but others spoke back equally as fluently. The sounds were not English at all, but more Asian. I wish I could have recorded her.

[Marmee]

I would love to read the book. I was "put on the spot" today at a family gathering. My dear brother-in-law (nice guy, but we see things differently) said that my child philosophy "smacked" of inate goodness instead of "original sin". I tried to explain, but I always feel like a mumbling idiot. He punches holes in my arguements and my brother smirks at my attempts to back up my beliefs with scripture. My brother calls me (in jest - I think :shifty), an anarchist who uses "Lord of the Flies" child rearing techniques.
Now, just so you know. I have two wonderful children. I am not permissive. We do unschool, so this adds to their amusement. But, I do not endorse letting children run free without any standards.
Okay, that was mostly me venting from my uncomfortable moment today. :phew
But, I do want to read this book! :)

[TulipMama]

said that my child philosophy "smacked" of inate goodness instead of "original sin".

*eyeball roll*

Yes, and the answer to sin is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Not a smack on the behind.

I have been both humbled and inspired by what Rebecca Prewett (http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/badbaby.html) has written about children and sin, "those us us who are the adults in the family have had a lot more time practicing and getting "good" at sin. Many of us have been practicing being selfish and manipulative and egocentric for decades before our baby comes along. And that tiny little being is brand new at this sin business. So I tend to warn new parents (if any of them want to hear it) that they need to worry a lot more about their own sin and selfishness than they need to worry that some tiny, helpless baby is on a rampage to have his own way."

[UltraMother]

Where's the good book list?

[akmyilee]

said that my child philosophy "smacked" of inate goodness instead of "original sin".

*eyeball roll*

Yes, and the answer to sin is the Gospel of Jesus Christ, right? Not a smack on the behind.

I have been both humbled and inspired by what Rebecca Prewett (http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/badbaby.html) has written about children and sin, "those us us who are the adults in the family have had a lot more time practicing and getting "good" at sin. Many of us have been practicing being selfish and manipulative and egocentric for decades before our baby comes along. And that tiny little being is brand new at this sin business. So I tend to warn new parents (if any of them want to hear it) that they need to worry a lot more about their own sin and selfishness than they need to worry that some tiny, helpless baby is on a rampage to have his own way."


That blows my mind..........and puts it all in perspective pretty well too!

[ArmsOfLove]

You could also try asking the parents, " Hunh--sin nature aside, where do you think he learned that?" ;)

[mom2threePKs]

I have been both humbled and inspired by what Rebecca Prewett (http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/badbaby.html) has written about children and sin, "those us us who are the adults in the family have had a lot more time practicing and getting "good" at sin. Many of us have been practicing being selfish and manipulative and egocentric for decades before our baby comes along. And that tiny little being is brand new at this sin business. So I tend to warn new parents (if any of them want to hear it) that they need to worry a lot more about their own sin and selfishness than they need to worry that some tiny, helpless baby is on a rampage to have his own way."


:yes :yes :yes :yes :yes :yes

My blood just boils when someone talks about a 2 year old being the poster child for original sin. If appropriate, I laugh and say, "Yeah you think the two year old shows us original sin? Try looking at the adult parent's response to the two year old! That's original sin!!!!!!!!!"

Magan

[hey mommy]

:popcorn

Marking this so I don't lose it.. That was very cool... I'll have to find that book.

[Amythestmama]

Hey, that may be more true than you know, at least with my Samantha. She was born perfectly fluent in a language nobody else spoke, and she has spoken it profusely, with fervor, with meaning, with emotion, and she has not in the least appreciated -having- to learn English for the sake of her poor, dim parents. Simon seems to have been born with normal language skills, and doesn't speak whatever this was Samantha was speaking, at least not in front of me.
Born with the gift of Tongues--that's awesome :heart


She could stick her face into another child;s face, touch them on the knee, and speak, even when she was an itty bitty in arms baby. Some looked at her like she was an alien, but others spoke back equally as fluently. The sounds were not English at all, but more Asian. I wish I could have recorded her.


My dd used to do that more than she does now. What was really interesting was when she would do that with some child who was fussing and then tell me in English what the child needed and when that was done, the child stopped fussing. :think :) She was (and is) a good translator for her cousin who says only about 15 words and his parents are very punitive. She will listen to his noises and then say that he needs this or that and once he has it, he's fine. :heart

[mom2jolakeil]

I totally believe that the rabbis would be the ones playing with the kids. It saddens me to hear about the way others treated babies/children then :sick