dh was watching The History Channel's show on the history of sex

[ArmsOfLove]

and they actually had a section on spanking. They talked about how it's a myth that children were spanked prior to the Victorian era--that it was always part of the sexual act until then. That children were beat severely, and harshly punished, but not "spanked" as we know it today. That was sexual.

I don't understand why people don't get that there is a history behind spanking and sex--a very long, dirty, history. And that spanking children only began during a time with reports of widespread sexual abuse of children.

I have to be honest--I don't judge parents who are spanking because they have been lied to and told that it's required. My heart breaks for them--as it does for anyone buying into lies about Scripture. But, with spanking, there is an extra stomach churning response because of what I've learned about the act itself :(

[mamahammer]

:sick

[rosesnsnails]

Yuck

[Beauty4Ashes]

Is there any way to view this segment? Tonight they are talking about sex in ancient cultures, but I am curious about the segment your dh saw. I'd be tempted to record it and show it to my friend who believes that spanking is biblical and necessary...

[Bonnie]

Wow and good for them for touching on that!!!

[Roma]

wow; didn't know that

[CrunchySeaSalt]

Ick.....makes me realize that the yucky feeling when I think of dads spanking kids.... esp since I was spanked by my step dad.... has a reason that I wasn't concious of.... yet instinctively knew :sick

I used to spank....this is a solid addition to why I won't in the future :no2

[Learnin'2B]

Seems like I may have caught that show in the past, before it ever came up with dd, but now it just "clicked". :sick

[GodisGood]

Seems like I may have caught that show in the past, before it ever came up with dd, but now it just "clicked". :sick



:yes

I've seen it twice and must have missed that reference.

[BornFreeBaby]

I don't think that we would ever think of spanking our kids *there* if it wasn't done to us or if we hadn't been exposed to it as 'normal'. :(

[righteous mama]

It makes so much more sense to swat a child on the leg or hand then on the bum. It has to be rooted in sex! I did watch that show and it was very eye opening. It does make me sad that so many parents just don't get it. Hmmm...got me thinkin'

[glassangel]

For some reason that makes me feel terribly sad :cry and I too feel such heart ache over those parents who have been taught that it is necessary :cry

[hbmamma]

Yeah I saw the show too and found that interesting (in a not so good way :sick)


It makes so much more sense to swat a child on the leg or hand then on the bum. It has to be rooted in sex! I did watch that show and it was very eye opening. It does make me sad that so many parents just don't get it. Hmmm...got me thinkin'

ITA :yes

[ChristmasGirl]

That children were beat severely, and harshly punished, but not "spanked" as we know it today
Crystal, do you know where children were beat, and with what? are you saying that the bottom was not the place of affliction? And do you think that if this argument was used, that pro-spankers would then suggest that it was more biblical to beat/whip your children?

[cklewis]

Well, here's tonight's:

http://www.history.com/shows.do?action=detail&episodeId=193878

It seems like a series. Which episode did he see?

C

[hsgbdmama]

:(

But how do you convince hard-core spankers that it had s3xual origins? :/

[Lady TS]

I always thought that one would spank on the bottom because that was a place you could spank and not cause any serious physical harm to the child. If you 'spanked' their arm or back, you would be hitting a more bony part of the body and risk breaking bones and such....

I've truthfully never thought about spanking being sexual in nature.... :shrug Not that it is the thing to do, either...

[waterbaby]

Wow, I never knew this. :jawdrop

[Quiteria]

That children were beat severely, and harshly punished, but not "spanked" as we know it today
Crystal, do you know where children were beat, and with what? are you saying that the bottom was not the place of affliction? And do you think that if this argument was used, that pro-spankers would then suggest that it was more biblical to beat/whip your children?


As I understood it, before I came to GCM, I always thought that you could "get away with" spanking, but be prosecuted for hitting anywhere else, that most people would recognize spanking as discipline, but that hitting anywhere else is abuse and prosecuted as such. You will always have some people like Pearl advocating whipping as biblical, but I think that is the point at which most mainsteam Americans would really have to pause in confusion and reconsider, maybe listen further re: GBD.

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't know which segment it was if it's a series :think I need to try and catch it :P


That children were beat severely, and harshly punished, but not "spanked" as we know it today
Crystal, do you know where children were beat, and with what? are you saying that the bottom was not the place of affliction? And do you think that if this argument was used, that pro-spankers would then suggest that it was more biblical to beat/whip your children?
Well they would have been beaten probably about the head and shoulders or on the back--think caning. BUT it would have been the bad/abusive parents who did this. It was not condoned---it was something that would have been done to a young man who was an embarrassment and disgrace to his family name. Young children were the realm of motherhood until boys transitioned to being in the men's world between 5 and 12 (at least for Hebrews, but in many other ancient cultures as well there were similar transitions). I actually would accept someone arguing that the Bible says to beat young adult men who are bring shame on their families. I still think that the literal understanding of Proverbs falls short from a study perspective, and most often fails to take into account the cultural context, but I accept, for example, Clay Clarkson's conclusions as reasonable and valid.

[QuiltinGramma]

I went to the site and couldn't find any other dates/times the series was showing except for last night. But when I clicked on the area to buy the DVD, here's what I found.

Narrated by Peter Coyote, THE HISTORY OF SEX takes a revealing, lighthearted and captivating look at the role of sex in society. From Adam and Eve to the sexual revolution and beyond, this eye-opening series goes between the sheets for a truly intimate look at humanity. The five programs in this 4-video set are:

Ancient Civilization--Egyptian contraceptives, Roman orgies and more.
The Eastern World--The Kama Sutra, behind the Great Wall and those sultry Arabian nights.
The Middle Ages--Sex and the church, bawdy knights and chasing chaste maidens.
From Don Juan to Queen Victoria--Passionate Pilgrims, Casanova, the Marquis De Sade and sexual extremes.
The 20th Century--Burning bras, Masters & Johnson, Viagra and beyond.

The History Channel says that this is the first time they have aired it said "PREMIERE: Monday, January 08" and it looks like it may be coming on again at 3:00 a.m. Eastern time. If this is the first time for History Channel to air it, then maybe TLC or a PBS channel has aired it.

[greenemama]

we caught parts of the first segment last night. interesting stuff, although i'm not overly interested in watching the whole series. do you know which section he watched that talked about spanking?

:popcorn

[CelticJourney]

As I understood it, before I came to GCM, I always thought that you could "get away with" spanking, but be prosecuted for hitting anywhere else, that most people would recognize spanking as discipline, but that hitting anywhere else is abuse and prosecuted as such.

Cop wife: Today this is absolutely true. In our state, striking a child anywhere except the fleshy backside is a basis for child abuse. The reference Crystal is talking about is pre-Victorian.

[Quiteria]

Right, I was responding to this, whether making the argument for "children used to be hit elsewhere" would encourage modern pro-spankers to shift their area of affliction.


And do you think that if this argument was used, that pro-spankers would then suggest that it was more biblical to beat/whip your children?


I think bringing up the tv show and Crystal's points about the Victorian vs.pre-Victorian era would give modern pro-spankers something to think about, that it is so firmly rooted in American culture (and law, or at least what is prosecuted in practice) that spanking=okay, hitting elsewhere=abuse, that I don't think most pro-spankers would flippantly switch to beatings elsewhere. I think bringing up this topic with modern pro-spankers would really cause more questions for most, perhaps open up the door for further dialogue about gentle parenting, whereas most pro-spankers are just entrenched inthe idea that spanking is biblical and not open yet to even conversing on the subject.

Of course, there are always parents who are just downright abusive anyway, or who are gradually led to whipping through someone like Pearl, who would simply hit elsewhere upon hearing this, but most of the people I know irl who are spanking are nice Christian parents who want to do what is "right" for their kids, who want to love their kids, who want their kids to love the Lord. They are simply told that they must do this to be biblical, and so they begin with a few minimal-velocity spankings over a fluffy diaper, convince themselves that didn't hurt or bruise, and over time harden their hearts as an increasingly mobile child finds more opportunities for "diobedience." For most pro-spankers, it is a gradual process in which they are muddling along just like we are muddling along trying to figure out how GBD applies to our growing child today. Most are simply decieved and not intentionally cruel. Many of our GCM mamas have been in their shoes, only to wake up one day and realize "This has become a lot uglier than the experts promise," and I think this reference to where children were not hit on the bottom historically--I think this dialogue helps make spanking look a whole lot uglier. Modern arguments about how damaging it is to the child don't always work because "I would never carry it that far," or "That's just the unbiblical liberals trying to suggest that we should be child-centered, or that no one has any sin anymore to need Christ as a savior," or "It couldn't be harmful if done in the right way, or God wouldn't have commanded it." This historical dialogue is a whole different angle--getting to the heart of the matter that it WASN'T handed down from biblical times, but rather from the Victorian era, and for a drastically different purpose. That is enough to make most people :sick2 .

[QuiltinGramma]

:yes

:heart

[ArmsOfLove]

This historical dialogue is a whole different angle--getting to the heart of the matter that it WASN'T handed down from biblical times, but rather from the Victorian era, and for a drastically different purpose. That is enough to make most people Exactly. When I tell people this they go :hunh :scratch :shifty They don't know what to say.

[Sanveann]

:(

But how do you convince hard-core spankers that it had s3xual origins? :/


Sadly, you probably can't. But I think of it this way ... if a co-worker came up and touched me on the arm or back, it would be fine. But if a co-worker came up and touched me on the butt, I'd deck him! It's an area that's considered personal and sexual.

[Lady TS]

But guys are always (in sports) smacking each other on the butt...how does that play into it?

[Beth1231]

:cry I'm about to put my lifelong secret on the internet. The sexual confusion of spanking started for me when I was about five or six years old. Seriously. And it only got much much worse as I got older. Learning the historical roots of spanking last year (here on GCM) left me shaking and sobbing to realize that my loving parents created this confusing, deepest, darkest part of my life. And they only did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. I hope you mamas won't look down on me. I only share this to help those "on the fence" parents who may still be dubious and still spanking their children. The external control (perceived obedience) is NOT worth the life-long risk of damage to your child. Till now, only my husband has known about this, so do you really think they are going to tell YOU?
By the way, Crystal, I need a way to buy that episode, if you can help me at all. I want my parents to see what I have suspected most of my life. And I would rather not have to explain why I know.

[ArmsOfLove]

:hug2 If you go to that link I believe there is a link to buy the episode. lmk if you can't find it.

I don't look down on you at all! You are most assuredly not alone in this :( I imagine it would be both scary and validating to see the roots of a lifelong struggle like that

[Beth1231]

Whoah, Crystal the whole series is a whopping sixty bucks! I can't swallow that at the moment, but I will keep it in mind for a time when we can. Thank you for your kind words. "Validating" is one way to put it. I think I would call it traumatic.

[Dana Joy]

well i thought i would try to find more info on the web... so i turned of the filter and got some unusual and interesting sites-
but one site "spanking with love" just made me cry . why oh why did i not just ask here instead of going out there into the scary internet world.
any historical references to back up what is being said on this thread?

[Heather Micaela]

Dana - I saw that site - I am sick

[Lady TS]

Yeah, I tried to research it on the web and kept getting these other icky sites. Was trying to find some references of where the info came from and all...not just 'hearsay', yk? Wasn't successful....or willing to pull up all that smut on my computer... :sick

[ArmsOfLove]

If you look up The Spencer Spanking Plan you will find the first book about spanking in marriage--the book that sported the tag line "spankings should always be done in love, never in anger" and that taught "the right way to spank" for the first time.

and :hug2 ITU the series being costly. Maybe we can figure out which one video in the series it is and order that :think

[Garnet]

I guess I need to go watch the History Channel.......<off to look at TV guide>

[cklewis]

Sometimes libraries have thsoe series. . . . :scratch

C

[Beth1231]

Since it was finally said to ME and not someone else.....can I take a second and ask what ITU and ITA means? Please? :O

[Roma]

Since it was finally said to ME and not someone else.....can I take a second and ask what ITU and ITA means? Please? :O

i totally understand
i totally agree

[QuiltinGramma]

I looked up The Spencer Spanking Plan (gotta be careful there, too). Was it written by a woman? For some reason I assumed that a man wrote it. But the one I found was from Dr. Dorothy Spencer circa 1928. Crystal, is this the same one you've refered to?
:heart

[greenemama]

the show is showing on the history channel on and off. it doesn't specify the age/era that the episode is about, so, look out! you might get to see a lot of boastful greek male statues. :giggle

[QuiltinGramma]

When I went to History channel last Sunday night, the episode that was airing was the very first one of the series.
:heart

[ArmsOfLove]

I looked up The Spencer Spanking Plan (gotta be careful there, too). Was it written by a woman? For some reason I assumed that a man wrote it. But the one I found was from Dr. Dorothy Spencer circa 1928. Crystal, is this the same one you've refered to?
:heart
Yes, that is the one.

[Bonnie]

That was written by a woman??

[QuiltinGramma]

I just can't imagine that a woman would write that.....I read it all the way through and thought "my goodness what a warped sense of demonstrating love to your spouse." :no2
:heart

[NewCovenantMama]

That was written by a woman??


:jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop :jawdrop

Even more creepy than I thought it was already!!!!!

Emma

[klpmommy]

To the person who wants to see it- talk to your library. I know that our library will often buy things that people suggest to them b/c they know there is an interest in it.

[mraab]

So does anyone know where the first Protestant Christian mention of spanking a child (as opposed to beating a young man) shows up in popular literature? I don't know anything about the Spencer Spanking Plan--does that purport to be Christian? I'm gonna have a hard time convincing anyone I know that what they have been told all their life is the correct, loving thing to do is actually a hand-me-down from child molesters. That's a great argument, but it's not going to fly without some serious, documented reinforcement.

[katiekind]

I'm gonna have a hard time convincing anyone I know that what they have been told all their life is the correct, loving thing to do is actually a hand-me-down from child molesters. That's a great argument, but it's not going to fly without some serious, documented reinforcement.

I rather agree. It's a good argument for the already-convinced, but strong documentation about the basis for this idea would be needed to have a hope of convincing someone who has more at stake.

If someone else does get a chance to watch the series, maybe write down the names of the historians who are mentioned as supporting that idea? or perhaps the History Channel website has more information? :glasses

If true, it's huge.

[greenemama]

and i think that serious documentation will make it really hard to continue to justify spanking. :yes

[Beauty4Ashes]

If I'm not mistaken, Crystal's site does have documentation about spanking as a s*xual practice...

[ArmsOfLove]

well it's the connection that I came to independant of the History Channel. In fact the spare the rod, spoil the child quote that is from the poem Hudbras, is actually talking about domestic discipline, not parenting. I haven't tracked down the first Christian to apply it, but it's definately after these works as far as I can find.

[cklewis]

fussy babe in arms, so short.

i think the evidence is pretty circumstantial -- like you say Kathy -- enough to further convince the already convinced. i mean, the phrase "spare the rod and spoil the child" is fron a bawdy Coleridge poem. this spencer stuff. The "people who bought this also bought this" listings on Amazon for those really explicit evangelical punishment books include bdsm stuff . . . . enough to go :sick2 but not enough to make a blanket statement . . . yet.

c

[Heather Micaela]

Ok I finally had the time to read that spense plan and I am so SICK! Why on earth would any woman agree to such a thing? And it is just to close to the rules we hear for spanking children. (((Shudder)))

So are you all asking the chicken/egg question? Is there proof this came *before* hitting children?

[ArmsOfLove]

well I'm convinced it came before *spanking* children because it's the first work of any kind to outline this *right* way for spanking. You can't prove a negative but there aren't parenting books out there containing this prior to it that I can find anywhere. It does come out around the same time that Behaviorism was new and the idea of children being a blank slate was popular--so the idea of what you put into a child was what you'd get out. I need to track down the parenting book that adopts this *right* way of spanking for children. I suspect if I start in about the 50's with parenting stuff and look at Bibliography's I'd be able to backtrack. :think

[cklewis]

well I'm convinced it came before *spanking* children because it's the first work of any kind to outline this *right* way for spanking. You can't prove a negative but there aren't parenting books out there containing this prior to it that I can find anywhere. It does come out around the same time that Behaviorism was new and the idea of children being a blank slate was popular--so the idea of what you put into a child was what you'd get out. I need to track down the parenting book that adopts this *right* way of spanking for children. I suspect if I start in about the 50's with parenting stuff and look at Bibliography's I'd be able to backtrack. :think


:think ITA there's something huge there. Just as of yet to be totally uncovered.

c

[Quiteria]

I suppose you could start with any of the current major books and backtrack, if they have bibliographies, and if they are available from the library or such. Does Dobson reference his sources? (Does he have sources other than his opinion?) Or Tripp? There was somebody yucky and a generation older that began with an L, I think, but I can't remember which anti-spanking site linked to it, and I sure am not going to try a search engine.

[cklewis]

No, they don;t reference their sources because they think it's "true," yk? :rolleyes

This is what I was trained in. Let me see what I can come up with. . . . I owe you a PM, Q! ;)

C

[Quiteria]

Found! (sorry Camille...though you can have the joy of checking for references as I sure don't want to...)

Roy Lessin Spanking: Why, When, How

Found it on this anti-spanking website,

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/homepage.html

with links to Amazon book review and such, somewhere it says his rules/ritual. Not stuff I care to read a second time. Eerily like Dobson, just a couple modern changes by Dobson for modesty, but so many parallels :shiver

[cklewis]

Let me makes sure what's being asked here. . . .

We want to know where/when the idea of hitting a child on the BOTTOM came from, right? I mean, hitting children we have in the literature from pretty far back. But it's the location that we're after, right?

C

[cklewis]

Found! (sorry Camille...though you can have the joy of checking for references as I sure don't want to...)

Roy Lessin Spanking: Why, When, How

Found it on this anti-spanking website,

http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/homepage.html

with links to Amazon book review and such, somewhere it says his rules/ritual. Not stuff I care to read a second time. Eerily like Dobson, just a couple modern changes by Dobson for modesty, but so many parallels :shiver


but is he the originator? Maybe I'm not understanding the question. :scratch

c

[cklewis]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanking

nak right now. . . .

c

[Quiteria]

I don't know where Lessin got his info, but my point was that he seems to be a step older than Dobson. and Crystal mentioned trying to backtrack through bibliographies in 1950's books to see if anyone would site the Spencer plan or such. So, the question is...is this guy any closer to being the missing link between s_xu@l spanking and spanking children?

[cklewis]

I don't know where Lessin got his info, but my point was that he seems to be a step older than Dobson. and Crystal mentioned trying to backtrack through bibliographies in 1950's books to see if anyone would site the Spencer plan or such. So, the question is...is this guy any closer to being the missing link between s_xu@l spanking and spanking children?


oh, oh, oh! I see! Gotcha. . . . Yes, that would be one step. You're right. But tracing a direct link to Lessein and Dobson wouldn't work, i don't think, unless his mom read it. :think

We'd need to get this: Donnelly, D. & Straus, M. (1994) The fusion of sex and violence, in M. A. Straus (Ed.) Beating the devil out of them: Corporal punishment in American families. Boston: Lexington/MacMillan. Who's got the stomach for it?

C

[QuiltinGramma]

uh........I don't think my library has it.
( :pray2 please don't have, please don't have it, please don't have it........)
:mrgreen
:heart

[Quiteria]

Oh dear, our library system does have it, as well as another one by Straus entitled something like Behind closed doors: violence in the American family. So, it's just one chapter/essay/article within the larger book that I would have to read? :sick

I have an overdue (lost) book and/or fine that needs to be paid before I could request it...should anyone else like to get to it first... :sick

[mraab]

Let me makes sure what's being asked here. . . .

We want to know where/when the idea of hitting a child on the BOTTOM came from, right? I mean, hitting children we have in the literature from pretty far back. But it's the location that we're after, right?

C


I think location is the crux of the issue. I don't know of anybody (in US Christian circles) that actually advocates caning a child (i.e. beating them somewhere other than the seat of the pants), so if we can draw a direct link from sexual spanking to punitive spanking, we might get somewhere. A lot of the justification I've heard for spanking runs along the lines of "that's why God gave them cushy bottoms." :sick I would think that being able to present an airtight case that spanking came from perverts would probably shoot it down for most people.

All right, I'll take a stab at the book since the Duke library has it. Blech................. :sick2 I should have it in hand by Wednesday.

[QuiltinGramma]

You have our undying gratitude and love. And we will be here to detox you after the read. :giggle In all reality we'll be here to support you as you read this :sick book....I'm not necessarily saying this book is :sick or the author is :sick but that the topic is :sick and the author is :sick if he supports the topic he wrote about....do you understand what I just said there? :phew
:heart

[Quiteria]

Judging by the other book our library listed, it sounds to me like the author is more of a sociologist/social worker from an academic background like Camille. In other words, he's documenting what happens in America for the sake of documenting it, making historical commentary, suggesting social change, etc. Does that make sense? Of course, I haven't seen the book, but that's just the impression I got from the library listing. Still an unpleasant and depressing topic to read about, but I will be surprised if he supports it per se. Now, how he found someone to co-author that particular chapter and what background that person has... :sick ... there have to some good people in these fields specifically to help others, but it always makes me a little wary wondering what draws them to it, knowing that they can't all be good people...if that makes any sense?

ETA: Finally got brave and looked it up on Amazon. Here is one of the reviews: (Sounds like he might become one of our GBD resources...)

This revised edition by Murray Straus is an exceptional addition to the discussion of whether or not to spank. Chapter by chapter, he addresses every rationalization commonly given for spanking, and presents research which debunks each one. For instance, parents might say that they spank in order to prevent their children from becoming antisocial in adulthood. Straus shows that, controlling for other variables, the use of corporal punishment actually increases the likelihood that the child will be violent as an adult, spend time in jail, drop out of school, and experience depression.

One hundred fifty years ago, it was legal for masters to hit lazy apprentices, for teachers to hit unruly students, and for husbands to hit disobedient wives. These behaviors were even approved by the general society. Now, these behaviors are illegal in every state. However, corporal punishment is still legal in every state--which means that the behavior which would get me arrested if I performed it with my co-worker, my neighbor, my wife, or the neighbor's children--is perfectly legal when I do it to my children. It is even regarded as responsible parenting. Straus's book is a tour de force, which should represent a bugle call to every responsible parent who wishes to reduce the level of violence in our families and in our society.

This is an extraordinary book--one which should be studied by any parent who is considering using corporal punishment in parenting

Here is another that I found under "People who bought this book also bought..."
Spare the Child: The Religious Roots of Punishment and the Psychological Impact of Physical Abuse (Paperback)
by Philip J. Jr Greven


Part of a review:

Everyone in our society could benefit from reading this book. It provides a powerful argument against an all too common parenting tactic. It sheds light onto how corporal punishment has far-reaching emotional and psychological effects. And perhaps most important of all, it shows a strong connection between the apocalyptic thinking characteristic of evangelical Christians and the corporal punishment so many of them believe crucial to raising children.

[QuiltinGramma]

:phew I thought it might be that way. Brother, what a topic to research and write a book on. :no
:heart

[Aisling]

:phew I thought it might be that way. Brother, what a topic to research and write a book on. :no
:heart


But..I'm so very grateful someone has documented it. I'm checking my library listings...though I doubt they'll have it. Our *city* library is associated with COG headquarters, and tends to be quite sterilized :rolleyes

[Aisling]

Just snagged it off half. com :) I'll be happy to read it and share thoughts. It'd be great to get in contact with anyone who has done research in this area as a thesis, etc. :think Let me poke around our sociology dept. and see if anyone knows of anything. Surely someone's tried to trace the history before.

[mokamoto]

:( This is not easy to write about, but I believe it will help me come to terms with this subject, as it resonates with me :cry and is one of the major reasons I looked for a community like GCM in the first place. I still have flashbacks from some corporal punishment I received as a child and I feel :sick now realizing why subconsciously it bothered me so much... and continues replaying in my mind even more than 15 years later. :sick Some people think that it only damages a child (and later affects an adult) if it is practiced regularly. However, I believe that the fear of it, even if only administered a couple of times in all of the childhood years, damages the person significantly. Thank you to everyone who is doing research on this topic. I don't blame my folks. They believe that it is the Christian way of discipline and at least my Dad expresses memories of his discipline experiences as a child, so he was continuing the cycle of violence he experienced. A bit scary, too, is that discipline at the Christian school I attended in elementary school included spanking. What bothers me the most though is the advice that my folks give me (and which I of course disregard) on disciplining my son. Hopefully your research results will be the beginning of the healing for me. It is so very important to me to stop the cycle and not hurt our family with violence disguised as discipline. Thank you again. :heart

[cklewis]

((((((((((Marie)))))))))))) You have found a good home. :pray

I have the Greven book. Greven's purpose is noble, and I appreciate him. But his history is kinda sloppy. :bag I'll pull it out today. . . .

C

[Quiteria]

((((((((((Marie)))))))))))) You have found a good home. :pray

I have the Greven book. Greven's purpose is noble, and I appreciate him. But his history is kinda sloppy. :bag I'll pull it out today. . . .

C


Does he reference in his bibliography anyone who might be less sloppy? :think Wonder what Amazon or a school catalogue would pull up if we tried doing a related topic search?


(((Marie)))
I am so :hug2 that God has drawn you to be so gentle with your son and so sensitive to recognize that even infrequent violence is traumatizing. I am so sorry for your painful experience. :bheart

On that note, I will say that the most frightening person in my childhood never actual hit me since I was not his daughter. Yet I knew that he was capable of greater violence than anyone else in my life, and I was utterly, utterly terrified to spend any time in his house. Amazing that even unfrequent exposure could be so vivid.

I am so sorry Marie that your parents chose that. :cry

[cklewis]

Started a new thread. . . .

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php/topic,94294.0.html

C

[mraab]

You have our undying gratitude and love. And we will be here to detox you after the read. :giggle In all reality we'll be here to support you as you read this :sick book....I'm not necessarily saying this book is :sick or the author is :sick but that the topic is :sick and the author is :sick if he supports the topic he wrote about....do you understand what I just said there? :phew
:heart


Thanks. :mrgreen I'm glad that he's not writing in favor if it, but the topic is still really horrible.

[Beth1231]

Wow, this thread grew! Well, I took a wikipedia field trip and clicked on a highlighted word and found this site. http://www.corpun. com/rules.htm#afghanistan I hope I broke the link enough. It's a detailed, historical record of the use of corporal punishment in countries all over the world! Some of it dates back as far as the 1700's! The interesting part is, the majority of the information is pertaining to adults and not children and yes, most of the "punishments" for criminals and such were done on the BUTTOCKS. So....hmmm...this is making me think more. The site says this was done for humiliation, but we already knew that was inherent in spanking, right? I'm no longer on the "spanking on the bottom started with DD" bandwagon. Now I'm thinking it actually began as a brutal form of punishment of ADULTS. It's interesting to note that in nearly all cases, women and girls were excused. More to ponder..... :think

[hiddenhippie6]

:grin :cup

[live~laugh~love]

:cry I'm about to put my lifelong secret on the internet. The sexual confusion of spanking started for me when I was about five or six years old. Seriously. And it only got much much worse as I got older. Learning the historical roots of spanking last year (here on GCM) left me shaking and sobbing to realize that my loving parents created this confusing, deepest, darkest part of my life. And they only did it because they thought it was the right thing to do. I hope you mamas won't look down on me. I only share this to help those "on the fence" parents who may still be dubious and still spanking their children. The external control (perceived obedience) is NOT worth the life-long risk of damage to your child. Till now, only my husband has known about this, so do you really think they are going to tell YOU?
By the way, Crystal, I need a way to buy that episode, if you can help me at all. I want my parents to see what I have suspected most of my life. And I would rather not have to explain why I know.



Honey, I would NEVER look down on someone like that. All my :hug2 and :heart to you!

[Knitted_in_the_womb]

I always thought that one would spank on the bottom because that was a place you could spank and not cause any serious physical harm to the child. If you 'spanked' their arm or back, you would be hitting a more bony part of the body and risk breaking bones and such....


A lot of people believe it, I've even heard it from the pulpit.

But I've heard of girls having menstrual-type spotting as a result of spankings, boys who get hit on the "balls." There are also a lot of nerves that run out of the base of the spinal cord in that area which can get damaged.

Jenn

[Knitted_in_the_womb]

:cry I'm about to put my lifelong secret on the internet. The sexual confusion of spanking started for me when I was about five or six years old. Seriously.


Hugs Hannah!

I'm right there with you...right down to it starting at about 5-6 years old. You are NOT alone.

Jenn

[Chris3jam]

I always thought that one would spank on the bottom because that was a place you could spank and not cause any serious physical harm to the child. If you 'spanked' their arm or back, you would be hitting a more bony part of the body and risk breaking bones and such....

That's not true. . .and it's a reason that Pearl advocates the "stinging switch" approach, instead of the standard "paddle" and "spank". :sick :sick Spanking them on the bottom jars their spine, sending "shock waves" up the spine and into the brain. It causes all kinds of spinal problems and can cause neurological problems, as well.