What's wrong with this reasoning (biblically)?

[ShowersofBlessings]

OK, according to Galatians 6:1, we should be restoring those who are caught in sin GENTLY. So my understanding of that includes our Christian children. Spanking is not gentle, so we should not be spanking our Christian children....... However, is it ok to spank our nonChristian children? Obviously, I would say, "No." But is there a biblical reason not to spank them? As far as I can tell, it is a freedom of choice. It's not commanded *to* spank, but I can't see where it's forbidden to spank your unbelieving children. Am I missing something here? Is my line of reasoning totally off-base here? TIA. :)

[Katigre]

Well, why would you say your children are 'not Christians'? Because they haven't 'prayed the sinner's prayer' or something like that? For me personally, I will operate under the mentality that my young children *are* Christians until they are older and show me otherwise - there is a verse in one of Paul's letters that talks about the children of believer's being "sanctified".

(Though i'll admit my bias in this issue is covenant theology, so that's what i'm replying from. The whole idea that i had to 'accept Jesus to be saved' when i was a child REALLY gave me major anxiety and messed me up spiritually/emotionally for a long time - i was terrified i had not 'asked correctly' and would do it multiple times a day for years, it was not good. So i would like to embrace a theology that spare my children from that type of thing).

[ArmsOfLove]

is that something you think would lead a child to the Lord? If vengeance is God's, do you feel that an acception should be made in one case or another, and unbelieving children just deserve to be hit? I guess I see the logic as incomplete.

[MarynMunchkins]

We're to love others as ourselves. Love is kind, patient, etc.

Spanking is not. :no It's causing another person, one weaker than ourselves, physical pain in order to get what I want. That's not kind, and it's not love.

[ShowersofBlessings]

is that something you think would lead a child to the Lord? If vengeance is God's, do you feel that an acception should be made in one case or another, and unbelieving children just deserve to be hit? I guess I see the logic as incomplete.


Just to clarify, *I* don't think any children should be hit at all. I guess I'm trying to understand why most Christians promote spanking, when this verse seems to speak against it. :shrug Probably 90% of the Christians not only spank, but encourage others to do so too. :no2 So how does this verse fit into that idea? Do they say that we don't have to follow it when it applies to our children? If so, why not? If this verse doesn't apply to children, who does it apply to and why? It doesn't make sense to me that we arbitrarily exclude one segment of the population because it is not convenient for us

Maybe I am wrong and even though this verse seems to say otherwise, it really is ok to hit your children. :shrug :shrug

[arymanth]

Probably 90% of the Christians not only spank, but encourage others to do so too. :no2 - frown So how does this verse fit into that idea? Do they say that we don't have to follow it when it applies to our children? If so, why not? If this verse doesn't apply to children, who does it apply to and why? It doesn't make sense to me that we arbitrarily exclude one segment of the population because it is not convenient for us

This is one of the verses that convinced me NOT to spank! I could not see how it was acceptable to treat a child worse than you would an adult when they sin. Adults KNOW BETTER, a child does not. If anything, this verse totally refutes the idea of hitting a child when they sin.

Stephanie

[Titus2Momof4]

I think it's a very interesting point. I think that from what I have seen, MOST of the people who believe that it's "commanded" to spank feel that they are doing so to "save their child's soul". They also believe that they must spank when their child is in sin. I wonder how this lines up with hurting our children, to "teach them a lesson" ? :shrug

[ArmsOfLove]

most people have NEVER considered applying anything in the NT that talks about how we are to treat others to their children. They just don't go there with their thoughts :shrug

[Heather Micaela]

most people have NEVER considered applying anything in the NT that talks about how we are to treat others to their children. They just don't go there with their thoughts :shrug


I know - I just don't get it. My pastor preaches grace and such so WELL and then turns around and speaks of spanking his kids :(

[flowermama]

Spanking is not gentle

One thing that puzzles me and that can make things even more confusing in my opinion is that somehow some people believe that spanking is gentle. I am not sure how they can see it as gentle, but they do. For example, when the GCM statement of beliefs used to say that we believe in gentle discipline, some people who believed in spanking would say they agree. :scratch Also, a mom on another board told me that she didn't believe in purposefully inflicting pain on her children, yet she spanks. It's like so many don't see the truth of what they are doing when they spank their children.

most people have NEVER considered applying anything in the NT that talks about how we are to treat others to their children. They just don't go there with their thoughts :shrug

Definitely true. :(

I think that from what I have seen, MOST of the people who believe that it's "commanded" to spank feel that they are doing so to "save their child's soul". They also believe that they must spank when their child is in sin. I wonder how this lines up with hurting our children, to "teach them a lesson" ? :shrug

Yes, that is my experience as well. As I understand it, people at my church, at least some, believe that spanking is a "means of grace" to help lead the child to Christ. . . that ol' bottom - heart connection, I guess. :/ They believe they must spank if they love their child. :(

I just don't get it because children can learn and do learn all the time without being purposefully hurt. It doesn't make sense that a child would have to be purposefully hurt by his parent(s) in order for their heart to be reached by the Holy Spirit. It doesn't fit with God's plan of salvation; it doesn't fit with GRACE.

[Epieikeia]

However, is it ok to spank our nonChristian children?

I have considered my children fellow brothers and sisters in Christ since they were born--the concept that my children would be unbelievers since birth until they have a "conversion moment" or verbal confession of faith is so foreign to me.

As for using the NT--it was very powerful to me in helping me realize that spanking is not Biblical at all. Can you imagine Jesus spanking a little one??? In the NT he is constantly showing gentleness and love to children--he reprimands adults for viewing children as a burden (i.e. disciples) and warns against harming a child in anyway--especially spiritually.

[ShowersofBlessings]

I don't actually know *why* the people of my church spank. I know most believe it is "commanded" :( But I seriously doubt that they think they are "saving their children's soul from hell." Actually I guess they spank as behavior modification. That they need to spank so that their children will learn to not do things and how to be godly..... :shrug Other than the few "rod" verses, I agree with their theology. It's not off like I think that Pearl's is....... I'm not sure, but I would think perhaps, my church thinks that Galatians 6:1 only applies adults or maybe they think what Jeri suggested that they *are* being gentle. :hunh I just don't get it. If I mentioned Galatians 6:1 to them, they would know it because they read their Bibles, and they would say something OBVIOUS that of course it doesn't mean they aren't supposed to spank. :/ :rolleyes My theology is different that some of yours, I'm not trying to offend when I said Christian children vs. nonChristian children.......

ETA Thanks for letting me think this through with you. :)

[Wonder Woman]

:hug My church doesn't practice infant baptism or anything, either.

Does your church teach an age of accountability? Because mine does, and my biggest question is 'why are we hitting them for something God doesn't even see as sin?' :hissyfit

My mother enlightened me with ' oh, they aren't sinning against God, just against you.' :mad :rolleyes

[Epieikeia]

My theology is different that some of yours, I'm not trying to offend when I said Christian children vs. nonChristian children.......

Oh it did not offend :hug2 and I guess I *knew* that must be what is deducted based off of that type of conversion doctrine...but it was one of the first times I had heard it expressed like that.

Now, from that--it is interesting that denominations that purport infant baptism or that an infant, even in the womb can have faith (i.e. John the Baptist who "lept" in his mother's womb when he was in the presence of Jesus who was also in the womb--I know this example is descriptive and not prescriptive--but it is a powerful picture) are less likely to *push* spanking via the Pearls/Ezzo/etc than other denoms that hold to the idea that they must get their children to "confess" faith and convert. Does that make sense???

[Wonder Woman]

Shanna - I think it's because if you see your child as a Christian, it's much easier to assign positive intent and recognize childish behavior.

Most of my beatings came from me being a kid, and my mom seeing it as indication of pure evil. :/ She didn't view me as saved or under any sort of sanctification - and now she's sure I've lost my salvation because I don't hit Jaden. :rolleyes

I do believe in 'moment of salvation' theology ;) but at the same time, I see the love that Jaden has for God, and I totally believe he's sanctified. I don't see him as godless or evil by any means!

[Epieikeia]

I do believe in 'moment of salvation' theology

Oh I do to--I just don't believe you have to be able to be of an age of reason to have it.

Still, it is interesting because I think not spanking may be easier to grasp depending on different theological bents. I have briefly thought about that--though I see it especially in this thread. *If* you feel your child is not a believer than you potentially (as I hate to speak for everyone and I know there are variances) could feel a panick about trying to get your child to believe--to me it would be an added pressure. So, garbage like the Pearls would be something that might make more sense to you (general) than it would to me due to our different theological bents.

This isn't to be critical or anything--but I am just wondering if some churches/denoms are more suspectible to taking a more pro-spanking stance based of their doctrinal beliefs concerning conversion and sanctification. :scratch

[Wonder Woman]

This isn't to be critical or anything--but I am just wondering if some churches/denoms are more suspectible to taking a more pro-spanking stance based of their doctrinal beliefs concerning conversion and sanctification. :scratch


I absolutely, based on much painful personal experience, believe this to be true. Unfortunate, but true. I know my parents believe that if a child raised in a 'Christian' home doesn't become saved by early teen years, there's not any hope for them. So they felt great urgency to beat the Gospel into me. :hunh

[Epieikeia]

I absolutely, based on much painful personal experience, believe this to be true. Unfortunate, but true. I know my parents believe that if a child raised in a 'Christian' home doesn't become saved by early teen years, there's not any hope for them. So they felt great urgency to beat the Gospel into me.

((Hugs)) to you. :hug2 :cry

I will say that my denom doesn't condemn spanking--but they don't endorse it as a theological statement either. Lutherans do spank (my parents and my dh's parents did and struggle with the fact that we don't because they view it as a criticism, when that is so not what it is--it is a firmly held conviction for both dh and I)--but it isn't pushed and you would never see parents comparing instruments of spanking, etc.