Good question for spankers?

[Chris3jam]

I've been thinking.
(oops :giggle)

Sunday night we heard (another) sermon on child discipline, which included the need for spanking. :( Now. . . .why can't I think of questions like this at the time I need them? Or are these just stupid questions?

Pastor talked about the necessity of bad behaviour = bad consequences (ie, spanking). That a child really needed to make that connection. My question is. . . why spanking? If a child is old enough and smart enough to get the bad behaviour=spanking connection, why can't the child learn bad behaviour=bad natural consequence? Why the need for spanking? God does not reach down and spank us. . . .we reap the consequences of what we sow. Why do we *need* to treat children differently? Also. . . .I was just disrespectful to my dh. Does that not mean that I need a spanking? What is the difference except that a child is younger and smaller and not as smart?

This was just brought to my mind because of something that happened at story time last night. I tell the story in our 3 and 4 yo class. And the story was about Peter and how he lied about knowing Jesus (3 times before the cock crowed). And during the "question/answer" session ( :giggle ) at the end, I asked a question (I forgot what it was) and a little girl piped up and said, "He got a spanking! It's wrong to lie!!" I was dumbfounded. And I stammered a bit. . .and said, "Oh, no, honey! Jesus forgave him! Peter felt very bad for what he did, and Jesus forgave him." or something like that. I can see the ludicrousness (is that *even* a word?!) of spanking. . .I mean. .. .why can't other people? Why cannot people break out of the "must pay for that sin!" mentality and understand that Jesus fogives. I mean. . . why not natural consequences? Why not?

These two things right on the heels of each other just brought the whole thing to the front of my mind again. :think

[CelticJourney]

Spanking is the a mixed message - "God's grace is for everyone. Well, except you. You're so bad, you don't deserve grace and have to be physcially punished for your sins".

[hsgbdmama]

Why does it need to be "bad consequences"? Why can't it be "logical" or "natural" consequences? :scratch

If dc draw on the wall or spill something, why not make them help clean it up? What does a spanking do, other than send the message that they get hit, and most likely get out of fixing the problem.

Stoopid. :td

[SPKarenO]

Why does it need to be "bad consequences"? Why can't it be "logical" or "natural" consequences? :scratch

If dc draw on the wall or spill something, why not make them help clean it up? What does a spanking do, other than send the message that they get hit, and most likely get out of fixing the problem.

Stoopid. :td


i'm going to play devils advocate a bit.
to me, if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.

i have a question too. what natural consequence is there to a lie?

[J3K]

i have a question too. what natural consequence is there to a lie?

Distrust. Not knowing if your mother will believe you next time you speak.

My kids are older , and that is the natural consequence for lying. I point it out to them.... "You lied , and although I forgive you , I'm not sure I can trust you next time. It'll take some time for the trust to be built back up."

i'm going to play devils advocate a bit.

So that means that you are not actually advocating spanking ? Cuz the situation you used sounded like a pro-spanking argument. :scratch

[Chris3jam]

to me, if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.

If a child is old enough to go through those logical mental steps, they aren't writing on the walls anymore. To a very small child that does write on the walls, the removal of the crayon, the removal of him from this pastime, and the help for cleaning up would very definitely make enough of an impression.

As far as consequences to lies, that would depend on the lie. If my child lies about eating candy (he ate some but said he didn't), he is not allowed any more candy for a while. And he has to make resitution. To my child, who just *loves* money, and would have to give some of that up, that would certainly make an impact!

And I say "bad consequence" because some consequences do very much seem bad. As in, if I treat my kids like dirt, I will and can expect the same from them. :shrug If.

[abbiroads]

good discussion.

[CelticJourney]

i'm going to play devils advocate a bit...to me, if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.

I will address this first as a moderator: This is a fundamental agrument for 'why not spank' and the answer is that obedience based on fear of physical punishment does not create a foundation of responsibility or understanding. I assume you had no intention of advocating spanking, as it is agaist the board guidelines and statement of belief, but this form of 'playing devils advocate' comes too close for me not to post a reminder of the rules.

i have a question too. what natural consequence is there to a lie?
Distrust, increased boundaries/reduction in freedoms.... so much depends on the age of the child.

[mamaKristin]

i'm going to play devils advocate a bit.
to me, if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.


does the devil need an advocate? :shifty

Spanking doesn't *teach* the lesson though. Really. :shrug Spanking with a discussion *may* teach...but as a kid, I know I remember the spankings way more than the lectures they came with. A spanking with a discussion won't teach a child too young to understand anything. That is a benefit to GBD - it's not a cookie cutter solution to any issue (like spanking), rather the focus in on teaching the child in a way they can understand. Age appropriate teaching.

[Katherine]

i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.

Actually what you have described here is one of the biggest problems with punishing in an attempt to control or modify behavior.

For some kids, cleaning up would be enough of a deterrent. :shrug ETA: But in many cases, parents would add on that "Biblical" spanking b/c that's the "right thing to do" according to the formula/guru they follow or b/c they read the rod verses as commands. In those cases, the child has learned from cleaning up, and the additional punishment is just damaging his spirit and modeling all sorts of bad things.

For other kids, spanking plus cleaning up wouldn't be enough to make them bat their eye the next time they feel artistic (but they'd sure learn how to hide their tracks and lie convincingly). :shifty See what I mean? Finding the "right" punitive consequence (e.g. one that causes enough pain, discomfort, humiliation, inconvenience, hurt, or upset) is all about applying unpleasant leverage to another person to force them to behave (outwardly) as you see fit. It does NOT address the heart issue, and often even when parents try to do both things together--punish AND address heart issues--the pain of the punishment detracts from the lesson.

People are capable of learning in the absence of physical and emotional pain.

[hsgbdmama]

And what if the spanking doesn't work? What then? Spank harder? Combine it with grounding? Start using an implement to spank?

It becomes the bigger stick theory. :(

[Katherine]

Also wanted to add on that the little girl's comment illustrates another short-coming of spanking.

It *becomes* the "Why" for everything.

Don't ________. Why? Because you'll get a __________

yes, the other reasons are given lip service, but children in these dynamics (IME as both spanked child and a spanking parent) aren't given enough autonomy to [i]experience reasonable manifestations of those real life reasons. All too often, they don't get to experience natural consequences within the safe environment of a loving, Christian home, b/c the parents are preoccupied with levying external controls on their behaviors. At some point--perhaps their teens or young adult years--the external control is gone, and they start learning life lessons at a much higher price, and with much higher stakes. :(

[SPKarenO]

does the devil need an advocate? :shifty


no he most definitely does not. - and in the future I'll think twice about using that phrase.

Okay, sorry to have made any of you think I was advocating spanking. I merely wanted some discussion. And discussion I got!!

Can I just say you all made excellent points. All the stuff I can never remember!

Sorry if I raised any eyebrows along the way.

[Strumbelina]

Chris, I think your question to spankers is great! :tu
Paula!! You did a superb job explaining the shortcomings of punitive discipline. Seriously girl, that stuff should be in a book somewhere. :clap

[ArmsOfLove]

if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.this outcome is the result of a punitive parenting paradigm. None of my children have responded this way.

As for natural consequences--I consider the natural consequences of allowing lies to be too weighty for a child to endure. But I don't think logical consequences address the issue either. Rather than punishing for lying, I instill honesty :heart

[Strumbelina]

if i drew on a wall, and then had to clean it up - i would learn to weigh the consequences. meaning. i'm pretty sure i would have thought cleaning the wall was worth writing on it again. however. if i was spanked first, followed with a discussion of why i am expected to not write on the wall and then had to clean it up, i'm pretty sure i wouldn't do it again.this outcome is the result of a punitive parenting paradigm. None of my children have responded this way.

As for natural consequences--I consider the natural consequences of allowing lies to be too weighty for a child to endure. But I don't think logical consequences address the issue either. Rather than punishing for lying, I instill honesty :heart

I understand what you are saying about the natural consequences for lies being too weighty. At what age would you say that it is not too weighty? Also, does that include teaching stories you know like the 'boy who cried wolf' and the like to teach the point to even young children?

[Chris3jam]

Chris, I think your question to spankers is great!
Paula!! You did a superb job explaining the shortcomings of punitive discipline. Seriously girl, that stuff should be in a book somewhere.

Dh doesn't think so. I tried talking to dh a little tonight. He just rolled his eyes. He just *sees* it differently. I even said that I'm bigger, I'm smarter, I *know* better, I should be more in control of myself, but I *still* disrespected him. Why not a spanking for me? How come just for children? Even the Bible says the rod for the fool's back. . .I certainly acted like a fool. Why do *I* get to be "turned back to the right path", but the children don't have that right? Dh said, "They're children! They're not 'equal'!" I said, "That's my point!".

[Aisling]

:hugheart That must have been very frustrating to hear, Chris. :( I can never get my head around why we should treat someone with less self-control, less life experience, less ability to cope with difficult situations with less grace and gentleness. :no2 That "logic" says, "The smaller they are, the more often you hit them. The more vulnerable they are, the harder you stick it to them." I simply cannot find Christ anywhere in that teaching. :(

I love your OP :heart :hug

[Beauty4Ashes]

You know what I am seeing in my home? If dh is using a punitive form of correction, it only comes back to bite him in the butt. Kids copy what they see. But when I am using gbd, it is bringing good results. Two days ago, Bashar accidently spilled some orange juice on the carpet. I gave him a sponge and a rag and showed him how to clean up the mess. Last night the same thing happened, only he spilled a little juice on his pajamas. He looked for a rag in the drawer and started rubbing the carpet with it. Through gbd, he learned responsibility. What would he have learned if I had yelled at him or smacked him for it? Not a whole lot. Or another example, I tell my children not to hit because hitting hurts, and depending on the circumstances, either to use their words AND/OR you may touch your brother gently on the head. Guess what I am getting? Ds1 will gently touch his brother's hair to comfort him. And he's trying to use his words. If dh spanks, later on playfully the kids will try to spank him, which is disrespectful. But his spanking them is also disrespectful. I've tried the same explanation that you have, Chris, that shouldn't I get a spanking if I do something wrong? He doesn't get it. I do think though that he is impressed by the results that I am getting through gbd, though I doubt that he'd ever admit it.

[Titus2Momof4]

And what if the spanking doesn't work? What then? Spank harder? Combine it with grounding? Start using an implement to spank?

It becomes the bigger stick theory. :(


Exactly. Her example assumed that the cleaning up would be "worth it" to color on the walls again. For *my* kids, though, apparently they felt like the spanking was "worth it" :shrug

[Katherine]

If dh is using a punitive form of correction, it only comes back to bite him in the butt. Kids copy what they see. But when I am using gbd, it is bringing good results

:yes Everytime we have a punitive relapse, the kids' behavior starts to deteriorate... which often makes me get even more upset/frustrated/punitive :blush :banghead At some point, I realize what's happening and pull MY behavior back up to where it ought to be. And then, once *I'm* a safe place for the kids again, all their stress and fear and anger comes out for a few days and I just have to be there for them and help them cope... and then it's amazing how their behavior improves--returning respect, cooperation, helpfulness, and compassion to me when I am modeling those things for them. :heart