Dh said zero tolerance on sassing from dd; punitive methods in high gear

[fruitofthewomb]

Dd (5 yo) is having a hard time respecting authority. She is apparently sassing her teacher in addition to us. Dh said zero tolerance. Whenever she sasses or does something nonverbally disrespectful (rolling eyes, beligerant body language), she either gets something taken away, gets sent to her room or gets a spanking. :bheart I need ideas on how to handle sassiness without being punitive.

[hsgbdmama]

Can you give some scenarios? Maybe we can help with that as a starting point ... :hugheart

[mamaKristin]

Is the issue more that she's A) expressing a negative reaction or B) HOW she's expressing that negative reaction? Meaning, is she allowed to not agree with the person in question, but needs better tools as to how to do that respectfully?

[fruitofthewomb]

I am having a hard time thinking of specific situations, because it happens quite frequently. I guess when we're talking to her about a behavior of hers or having to do something she doesn't want to do, she might fold her arms across her chest up high, throw her nose up in the air, close her eyes, and make a humph noise while turning her back to us. She rolls her eyes when hearing an explanation about something. She makes mocking facial expressions and moves her hands to the side of her head while silently saying blah blah blah blah blah. This makes her sound awful; she's not. She's a wonderful child. She's just having a hard time with this right now and dh is afraid she will go through what we had to go through in life (jail, getting kicked out of schools, etc.) if we don't help her with this respect issue now. I don't know how to do this without being punitive so it will work and rather fast. Dh is putting his foot down, he won't tolerate it for a minute. It's for her own good, I understand his heart is in the right place. He has said he would read what I send him about other options (he is a skeptic, wondering why we should listen to people on a website), so I sent a link to the GOYBP website, and the AOLFF website.

She does need other ways of expressing her negativity. Dh and I have to agree on some respectful ways for her to do this. Suggestions there would be helpful. I think dh would like her to say yes sir without question. I just don't know how realistic that is.

[expatmom]

She does need other ways of expressing her negativity. Dh and I have to agree on some respectful ways for her to do this. Suggestions there would be helpful. I think dh would like her to say yes sir without question. I just don't know how realistic that is.


Not very realistic at all. :shrug

5 yr olds are more "sassy" then they were at 4. Its part of the developmental phase they are going thru, of self identification & awareness that they could in fact control their own destiny. They are exercising different muscles of personality and will. They are also becoming more aware of how their behaviour affects or influences those around them. (If I do XYZ it makes mommy go :crazy . Hmm, that is very interesting!) No method of discipline will be a quick fix because really she is in a typical 5 yr old developmental stage. The goal should be to help her move thru this stage in a way that she can still be respectful of the others around her while exercising her (perceived) independance.

What I have found useful is to moderate my voice to a low firm tone. It hasn't been useful to escalate to loud words or sharp tone. I don't go overboard on explainations, but rather repeat repeat repeat a few key phrases.

Ack, sorry, crying babe!........

[erinee]

I agree that she needs to learn to be respectful, but one thing I would point out to dh is that if you teach her to say "yes sir without question" as he wants her to do, who and what will she be saying yes to when she's a teenager or adult? As difficult as things can get with my spunky kids some days, I have complete faith that if someone offered Zach a cigarette today, he would give them a vehemenant no and then lecture them up and down and all over about why *they* shouldn't smoke either.

When my kids are disrespectful to me, I tell them that is not an appropriate way to talk to me and then model for them how they should say it instead. And I let them know that they are free to express their feelings and we can talk about alternatives that would make us both happy, but they can *not* be disrespectful about it. If they are, talking about alternatives is not an option. Unfortunately there are no fast ways to do it -- it's a learning process and you have to keep in mind what your desire for the final result is. If it's unconditional first-time obedience, you may have problems when she is out on her own and has no internal stops (like in situations above), what your dh wants to do may accomplish that (or may create more rebellion because she has no other way to express her real feelings). If you want a daughter who is respectful and yet spunky enough to make good decisions for herself, it's going to be a slower process.

I know it's so hard, especially with a dh who is not completely on board with GBD. Mine isn't either, and my 4yo does a lot of the same things you describe.

Scott Turansky's book "Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining....[there's more, but I can never get it straight] In You and Your Kids" addresses this whole thing *so* well and is fantastic. I highly recommend it! He also has a website, and you can sign up for positive parenting email tips. I've used a lot of his ideas.

[Teacher Mom]

Although this is not going to help you in the short run, maybe you can take something from it. :shrug

My daughter started getting that way around 5 yo and now she is 8. We still have occassional spurts of sassiness, but they are a lot further apart. Girls are dealing with how to express themselves and also a lot of emotional/hormonal changes. Try not to focus TOO much energy on her negative behaviour and focus a LOT on her positive. I know this is hard. Very hard.

Plus, on a funny side, we let the kids watch wife swap with us and let them see how different families work with different rules. Suddenly, our rules never seem so bad......... :giggle

[mamaKristin]

Responding with a "yes sir"...well that's not realistic...or always healthy, as previous posters have pointed out.

How do YOU and your DH respond to something you don't like? How do you both react when told to do something you don't want to do? I'm guessing neither of you responds with a direct "yes sir" all the time. This isn't meant to sound snarky. I'm really asking. Because most of us have gone though a phase of being 'sassy' in our lives, and most people (most, not all ;)) aren't sassy, rude, mocking adults. Instead of squashing her opinion, it will do you and her much more benefit to teach her HOW to respond. Using scripts, "do-overs", practicing...whatever. Punishing will probably just escalate the behaviour. All it will teach her is that the bigger person 'wins' and gets things their way.

[Maggie]

Does anyone remember ... was Turansky/Miller the team whose books Joanne has recommended or was that another authoring team? :think

[erinee]

Does anyone remember ... was Turansky/Miller the team whose books Joanne has recommended or was that another authoring team? :think


Yes, I believe so. I think that's where I heard about the "Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining and Bad Attitudes" book. It's really excellent.

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Whining-Complaining-Attitudes-Your/dp/0877883548/sr=8-1/qid=1164731229/ref=sr_1_1/002-2843610-3820068?ie=UTF8&s=books

And here's a link to their website:

http://www.effectiveparenting.org/

[Maggie]

Does anyone remember ... was Turansky/Miller the team whose books Joanne has recommended or was that another authoring team? :think


Yes, I believe so. I think that's where I heard about the "Say Goodbye to Whining, Complaining and Bad Attitudes" book. It's really excellent.

Here's a link to the book:

http://www.amazon.com/Goodbye-Whining-Complaining-Attitudes-Your/dp/0877883548/sr=8-1/qid=1164731229/ref=sr_1_1/002-2843610-3820068?ie=UTF8&s=books

Thanks, Erin! I don't know why I didn't direct that question to you... :O

[ArmsOfLove]

why does dh think that being disrespectful to her will teach respect?

I understand needing to tackle this--but short term, all or nothing thinking is not going to accomplish the goal. Even if she stops, you're demanding silence, not teaching what *to* do.

[erinee]

why does dh think that being disrespectful to her will teach respect?

Exactly! :tu

And that's okay, Maggie, I didn't even think about it! :hug

[MidnightCafe]

Well, I don't know what you've tried already, but here's what I might try. We have just begun running into some of this with Mane. I find that it helps me to watch my own attitude. When adults get all huffy about how their kids act, it doesn't exactly teach their kids to stop acting all huffy, KWIM?

Ok, so, I've done things like saying, "You need to be respectful when you listen to me. XYZ is not respectful. ABC would be respectful."

I sometimes say, "In this house we respect each other," rather than the bit about needing to be respectful when listening to me. I try to talk about how the rules are for everybody in the house, not just for her.

Sometimes I try empathy instead, "You seem upset about what I am saying. I know it can be frustrating to have to do XYZ. Is there anything I can do to help?"

Sometimes I just ignore it, as long as she's following through with what I've asked. As someone else already said, sometimes it's better to just focus on the positive and let the other stuff go. Sometimes focusing on the positive repairs a deficit your child is feeling, and the negative stuff resolves itself.

So, you see, there might not be just one answer for how to deal with this. In this case it's almost easier to know what not to do. You don't really want her to just do everything she's told without question. If you teach her that, she won't learn to think for herself, to say no to her friends or dangerous adults when she needs to. You don't want to treat her disrespectfully or she will just learn that it's ok to disrespect people who don't do what she wants.

You want to treat her with respect, with empathy, with positive affirmation whenever you can....so that she will learn to treat others this way.

[jenn3514]

:popcorn

[mummy2boys]

:popcorn

[fruitofthewomb]

i caught myself speaking disrespectfully to her this morning, in a humph tone, when she wouldn't do what i wanted. i swear the modeling part of this is the hardest. :nak

[hsgbdmama]

i caught myself speaking disrespectfully to her this morning, in a humph tone, when she wouldn't do what i wanted. i swear the modeling part of this is the hardest.

IKWYM ... when I snap at ds1 and realize it afterward it's like :doh :doh :doh :doh :doh no wonder where he gets some of this from!

:hugheart

[4MKfam]

I'm in a similar situation. Got a lot of negativity/whining/"disrespect" issues with my oldest daughter. Dh's solution --just punish her. I'm trying my hardest to 1) examine myself and weed out my own lack of respect for her and her siblings (it's been a hard few months and they've borne the brunt of a lot of my frustrations :blush), and 2) convince dh that punishment is totally not going to work (duh! It hasn't worked when we've done it in the past, has it? :think). I don't know which of the two is hardest so far :giggle.

[fruitofthewomb]

I still don't get why punishment *does* work for some children. :think :shrug I know, I've read on here that perhaps it's more like the chidren turn out wonderful *in spite of* the punitivie parenting rather than because of it. But I am human and I am an occasional doubter. :rolleyes

[CelticJourney]

But I am human and I am an occasional doubter

Ok, in my opinion, here are two options: Your daughter can build a relationship with you that involves healthy boundaries and loving nuturing that eliminates the 'attitude' she is showing now. OR your daughter can be punished to the point that she internalizes the 'attitude' and learns who to cover it up so she is not spanked/punished, but still thinks/believes it and will let it all out when she realizes you can't punish her anymore. Yes, there are other options, but they are shades of gray.

And ABSOLUTELY the modeling part is the hardest - but it is the most honest and truthful reflection of who we are/who they are and who we want both to become in the future.

[OpalsMom]

I still don't get why punishment *does* work for some children. :think :shrug I know, I've read on here that perhaps it's more like the chidren turn out wonderful *in spite of* the punitivie parenting rather than because of it. But I am human and I am an occasional doubter. :rolleyes


Oh, I don't think there's any question that for most children, punishment works. It's all in how you define "work".

I look at it like this: Punitive parenting is like dealing with the oil leak in your car by putting more oil in. The problem goes away, and it's faster, cheaper, and easier than fixing the engine. But you're spewing toxins into the environment and not doing anything to get rid of the leak -- which, sooner or later, will probably get worse. If that's all you do, the results are predictable, and over the long term, they are bad. But only stupid people go forever just dumping oil in; most people use the extra oil just to tide them over until they put in a permanent fix. For those people, there's no apparent ill-effect. They're still polluting the environment, and probably still damaging the car, but it's just little stuff, the overall outcome is OK.

[made4more]

5 yr olds are more "sassy" then they were at 4.

oh no! I have one turning 5 next month,a nd it's going to get WORSE? :eyebrow