It was going to happen sometime - my MOPs group advocating Tripp

[GrowingInGrace]

Well, for a year and a half I've been attending MOPs and so far, they've never been controversial at all. Until the meeting today. It was a talk about Sheparding a child's heart. The couple presenting got through most of the talk without really anything terrible until the last 15 minutes. The first talked mostly about getting to the heart of a child, not so much the what they did, by why they did it (helping to identify feelings of anger and jealousy or whatever the underlying emotion might be) and going to the word of God to see how we should treat each other (loving each other etc), being sensitive to the child and seeking out teachable moments to talk to them about God and not missing the opportunities because we get so busy. The mother even went so far as to say she laid down with her children before bedtime as a bonding effort and to be open to them to talk. Okay, so far there's nothing really amiss here.

But then the clincher comes in when they present a poster that they show their kids and that defines obeying and first time obedience and being cheerful about it with no complaints and with no excuses. :sick2 And then they went on to say even if it means spanking them. And saying that God handed down authority to parents and it is meant that we are to expect them to this first time obedience. That children should not get choices and it is up to us as parents to choose for them because we know better because God meant for us to have the authority over our children.

There was 2 stick figures on it, one who had a happy face and who was inside the bubble of safety, and one who had a sad face who was in the danger zone. They show this poster to their children to help explain their point. The father even joked that they'd send the child to a closet to read the poster.

And they went on to use the running out into the street illustration to show that spanking is called for in that situation, and how you should treat every incident of disobedience like that.

:hissyfit :sick2

I know I have enough discernment to know this is a dangerous philosophy. I know that there are children, like my middle child whom no amount of spanking would work with her (unfortunately, I know this first hand, I'm not proud to say :blush). She gets locked into her behaviors and spanking only makes it worse. But I know that there are other mothers who do not have this discernment. And who are going to spank them till their sweet.

So, I just got up and left. I couldn't take it anymore. I didn't know what to say, so I just left. I went down to the MOPPETs room so I didn't have to listen to it anymore.

Ugh - part of me wants to boycott MOPs as well as finding another church, but I just found this church about 3 years ago after being without a church home for 7 years. I thought we were supposed to be here. Now, I just don't know about it.

My kids by the way are very respectful and obedient to me in public (even though they aren't so well behaved at home), but that's because I am AP with them, not because they get spanked. And even though I know I have a long way to go with figuring out how to handle my dd2's difficult (okay, spirited) temperament, I know that spanking isn't the way to go.

Sorry, I just had to vent.

[LauraK]

Could you give a talk or run a question and answer session discussing your concerns?

[Soliloquy]

:sick2 sounds awful. :hugheart

[4MKfam]

If you do leave the group over this issue (and I would understand why you would consider that), please take the time to write out your concerns and voice them. If your group is anything like mine, it probably hasn't even be considered that there might be a Biblical alternative to "first time" obedience and spanking. If you were to write up a letter with your concerns before you leave, it will probably be discussed among the leadership, and maybe, just maybe (MOPS being a non-Bible study type outreach group) they will consider that promoting punitive discipline would turn off some of those "unchurched" moms (many who share the viewpoint that discipline is best done without physical punishment) they are trying to reach. Our group, composed of mostly moms who spank (it's the norm around here), has had a speaker (a child psychologist who is also a pastor's wife from our area) come to our group who is great about talking parenting from a grace-based perspective without even bringing up spanking or punishment for debate. Having been on the steering commitee myself a couple years ago, I know it's because one of the non-spanking moms in the leadership (but not me :) ) spoke up and welcomed her in order to show that there might be a better way. So, if you leave, please let someone know why.

[GrowingInGrace]

Well, I think I'm going to pray on this matter. I really don't want to leave, and I'm a big chicken when it comes to actually rocking the boat. I also need some time to come up with some neutral and gentle suggestions of how to accomplish the same goals without using those techniques. Thanks for giving me something to think about 4MKFAM

[Wholly Mama]

:hug
Perhaps the Lord led you to this church for this very purpose. To present a new view, to help broaden the understanding and maybe reach the hearts of some other mamas. :pray

[TulipMama]

It's really hard when we're not prepared for it and then here some of the really yucky parenting ideas presented in Christian contexts. *huuug*

It's also hard when we feel "surrounded" by people who assume punishments are Biblical--or at least pragmatic.

Praying for wisdom.

[Titus2Momof4]

Do you have enough time and energy to offer to speak on GD at a later meeting? I think I would have politely asked for some biblical references for first time obedience, not offering choices, and proof that the rod is literal. :shifty That is another thing I have really learned from this board- that most of the "techniques" in punitive parenting are not even biblically based, but rather man-made. That spoke a lot to me.

But I understand just wanting to leave, too. :hug2

[mummy2boys]

:pray

[GrowingInGrace]

Tasha - I'm not going to leave MOPs at least this year, as I've paid through May already. I might however, have a discussion with one or two of the ladies on the steering committee and ask them why they chose that technique and like you said ask for biblical resources about his methods. I also have had someone mention the "strong willed child" to me once, and I forgot about that. I'm going to arm myself with a few resources of my own as well.

I just can't believe that no one else in the meeting had a problem with what they were saying in the end out of like 40 women, I was the only one who was like :jawdrop :hunh?

[RealLifeMama]

I just can't believe that no one else in the meeting had a problem with what they were saying in the end out of like 40 women, I was the only one who was like :jawdrop :hunh?


You may not know if anyone else was all :jawdrop and :rolleyes by it.
Next time your DGL (discussion group leader) calls you, I might mention it to her and talk to her about it.

[lavender mom]

You may not know if anyone else was all :jawdrop and :rolleyes by it.



:yes A few years ago at my MOPS group one of the speakers spoke about SACH. She didn't go into as much detail as it sounds like they did at your church, but she did say she thought it was the one parenting book that should be on every parent's bookshelf. I, having never heard of the book before, took this woman at her word. I didn't buy the book, but put it on my mental, "to read" list. We didn't even really discuss the book in our discussion groups that week. A few weeks later, one of the woman at our table was talking about struggling with her toddler. I asked if she had looked at SACH yet since "so and so" had recommended it. She said she had, but that she really didn't like it, and went on to explain why. What resulted was a fantastic discussion at our table about discipline and how most of us didn't agree with spanking and were really looking for alternative ways to discipline our children.

Until we had that follow up discussion, I had never really considered Tripp, or the negative implications of what our speaker had shared a few meetings back. It may not happen this way at your MOPS group- I've gathered over the years that my group is rather unusual, but you may not have to write your MOPS group off just yet! :)

[hsgbdmama]

:yes A few years ago at my MOPS group one of the speakers spoke about SACH. She didn't go into as much detail as it sounds like they did at your church, but she did say she thought it was the one parenting book that should be on every parent's bookshelf. I, having never heard of the book before, took this woman at her word. I didn't buy the book, but put it on my mental, "to read" list. We didn't even really discuss the book in our discussion groups that week. A few weeks later, one of the woman at our table was talking about struggling with her toddler. I asked if she had looked at SACH yet since "so and so" had recommended it. She said she had, but that she really didn't like it, and went on to explain why. What resulted was a fantastic discussion at our table about discipline and how most of us didn't agree with spanking and were really looking for alternative ways to discipline our children.

:tu :highfive :cool

[GrowingInGrace]

Yes, I'll be sure to talk with my dgl about it. I've got a week I think before the next meeting, so I will be thinking of some things before then.

Thanks.

[lavender mom]

One other thought for you- having spent a couple of years as part of our MOPS leadership, I can say that the steering committee doesn't always totally endorse the views of the people that speak at the meetings. There have been at least a couple of times when leadership has met after a MOPS meeting and said to each other, "What was that all about?" :hunh We don't like it when it turns out that way, but in the rush to line up speakers, we often just take other MOPS groups at their word when they say, "Oh "so and so" is fantastic!" only to find out later that the speaker holds views that don't totally line up with most of the women in our group. Usually that comes out in discussion, but not always. Hopefully your DGL can straighten things out for you!

[Treenahurricane]

As a steering team member in my MOPs group (a largely unfortunately punitive group), know that not all the steering team members in every group are involved in choosing who is the guest speaker. Our leader for our group chooses, as a team we simply decided on themes for the different weeks. I know of a few moms in the group who I never thought were punitive that I later found out were Pearls followers through discussion :( I also found through talking with some of them about random things that some of them just kinda sat back because they didn't want to make a wave but didn't agree w/ what a lot of the other moms were doing. I have sat back a lot because I made some people rather angry when I spoke up last time...but a lot of those members left and I am now trying to take a "who me?" innocent approach LOL... I casually pass around books like "How to Talk..." and "Biblical Parenting" to moms who borrow books whenever anyone offers and hope that it will bring to light some of the things that are going on w/in some of the families in our group. I also know, however, that the church our group is based out of is a rather punitive style congregation-- VERY into complete wife submission (ignoring the man's aspect of that section of scripture), complete submission of children, etc., which is something I didn't know when I first joined the group. I am glad that I stayed this year because I feel that I can be a positive influence w/in the group because SOMEONE needs to be spreading the alternatives out there to new unsuspecting moms who show up at the meetings looking for guidance.