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Carrie in PA
11-09-2006, 06:24 PM
This does relate to this board, I promise....

I was reading my son's history book with him today, about Ancient Greece. We read about the Athenians and how they valued culture and education. They wanted to produce well-rounded citizens and women were expected to care for children and for their homes. I can picture the mothers valuing and nurturing their children because they seemed to be interested in the well-being of the individual so as to make an interesting, educated, productive society.

The Spartans, on the other hand, were not at all interested in the individual. The most important thing was the city-state (Sparta) and being ready for war. Baby boys were looked at as future soldiers. Young children were not comforted at all because it was thought they would become "soft". There were no comforts, no nurturing. Children (boys, because girls were of little use except to bear children someday, like with the Athenians also but at least they were taught to be good mothers and care for their children) were forced into indepenedence very early, leaving the home at age 7 to begin military training. It was a very harsh society with no nurturing, no comforting, one-size fits all, for the "greater good" approach to life.

It just got me thinking about the parenting camps today. I got chills reading of how the Spartan women would not comfort their children for fear of their becomming "soft". They needed to learn to be tough and fend for themselves. It seemed so strikingly familiar with certain approaches we all know of. Of course, no one we know would send off their children to prepare for the military at age 7, but some do demand a lot of unrealistic maturity and independence in young children. And there are those that believe (and teach) that too much comforting "spoils" children. It just makes me wonder about the roots of such modern parenting trends. Whose example are we following? It's really pretty scarey.

Just my rambling thoughts.... :shrug

Heather Micaela
11-09-2006, 06:27 PM
Interesting observations

mom2threePKs
11-09-2006, 07:59 PM
That's really fascinating....

Forgive me for my ignorance here but maybe you can check your history book....

I know that Greek culture became the basis for much of Western culture, language, rationalthough, democracy and all that. What happened to the Spartans?

Magan

Kailie
11-09-2006, 08:05 PM
The Spartans were also Greek, but from a different area then Athens. Eventually then Spartan and the Athenians went to war and Athens won. The Spartans eventually became part of the Athenian culture.

SouthPaw
11-09-2006, 08:14 PM
I always liked the Spartans :shifty

Katigre
11-09-2006, 08:29 PM
In high school we read profiles of both Sparta and Athens and had to choose which we would rather live in. I chose Sparta b/c women had a lot more independence there, and I thought the trade-off of having a husband and sons away at war all the time but being able to go out on my own without a veil was better than being cloistered in the house in Athens with a husband who didn't respect that I had a brain and was more than a uterus.

I guess it's no surprise I was voted "Biggest Feminist" for my senior class in the yearbook (i went to a small Christian school). :lol

cklewis
11-09-2006, 09:06 PM
:think Interesting!! I remember as a child my dad telling me that he and I both (because we were born with some difficulties. He was breech and was born with forceps that slightly paralyzed his right arm. And I was 4 weeks premature) would not have been valued in Sparta and would have been left to die. It was a pretty vivid way of telling me that that's not the way to do it. :)

C

CelticJourney
11-09-2006, 09:26 PM
It's similar to some Native American groups who were very dependent on warfare. Babies were 'hardened' and learned to surpress their emotions early on, much like the child who are raised under uber-punitive teachings, only in their case, happy is the only acceptable emotion.

Heather Micaela
11-10-2006, 05:57 PM
It's similar to some Native American groups who were very dependent on warfare. Babies were 'hardened' and learned to surpress their emotions early on, much like the child who are raised under uber-punitive teachings, only in their case, happy is the only acceptable emotion.

I remember reading that for some Native American groups the first thing they would teach a baby was not to cry because of the danger of enemies finding them. However I am not sure that that meant they attended to them right away so they would not cry or did CIO real early so the babies just gave up

tiglet
11-10-2006, 06:02 PM
When I read your post, I was instantly reminded of how many white people visited my ancestors and thought they were harsh because they dipped their children in the ocean every day, to toughen them. *But* - this culture is really gentle and loving towards children, for the most part. I think it's hard to see what the whole real story may have been at Sparta or Athens. :)

Heather Micaela
11-10-2006, 06:09 PM
because they dipped their children in the ocean every day, to toughen them.
They may be loving, and that probably is needed - but as a native Californian, all I can think is :shiver :shiver :shiver:shiver :shiver :shiver :shiver :shiver :shiver
If I went to AK, I'd be bundled up in the summer! :scarf

CelticJourney
11-10-2006, 06:49 PM
they attended to them right away so they would not cry or did CIO real early so the babies just gave up

Nope, with the group I am thinking of, they hung them in their cradleboards in the trees outside the campe and let them CIO.

Heather Micaela
11-10-2006, 07:15 PM
they attended to them right away so they would not cry or did CIO real early so the babies just gave up

Nope, with the group I am thinking of, they hung them in their cradleboards in the trees outside the campe and let them CIO.

CIO aside, that is horrid! Weren't they worrried about wild animals or enemies attacking them?

2inHeaven2inMontana
11-16-2006, 09:33 PM
From what I've read about Native Americans...is that they tended to them very quickly, so they never cried...they would baby their babies, until about 5 or so and then they were expected to grow up and not cry and learn to contribute to the tribe. Of course every tribe of Native Americans is probably different, but from what I've read, I've always liked how they treated their babies.

CelticJourney
11-16-2006, 09:40 PM
Of course every tribe of Native Americans is probably different,

My Master's Thesis was on childbirth and infant care among tribal level societies and I focused on North American contact and prehistoric periods. The amount of variation would surprise you, and the factors that determined the differences, even more so.