Rebuttal to my stance on grace

[Chris3jam]

In gently tiptoeing around and talking with people from our church, particularly, about discipline, and the role grace plays in discipline, it frequently goes a little like this:

Well, God does teach us, and try to turn us from the harmful way. He does have patience with us and help us. But, when we are stubborn and won't listen, God "spanks" us. He may send an illness. .the loss of a job. . . .hard times, or whatever it will take to turn us away from the path He didn't want us on. We are a stiffnecked and stubborn people. We need to do the same with our children. We do teach. . .we do direct. . .we do show and help. . .but, at those times where their sinful stubborn nature just won't let go, we *have* to get their attention. Spanking must be a consequence for certain things. Because it is such a big deal, spanking should just be for direct disobedience, but still must be employed, otherwise the children will *never* learn just how important it is to obey. And, in not obeying us, and not having respect for us, they will never be able to respect and obey God.

I have no idea what to say to this. What would you say?

[Somertyme]

:popcorn Reminds me of the whole lamb story thing :td. Still been pondering this a lot lately, and am eager to hear other responses. One thought I had was this: As a teacher, if a student is having a hard time learning something, inflicting pain rarely makes them learn it, but can certainly make them uncertain or afraid. If I was to smack a child if they didn't understand algebra, that would be completely wrong and ineffective. Instead it takes patience, and teaching, and often a bit of time, for them to learn it. Not sure if this totally applies, but it made me think :shrug

Oh, and how did Jesus deal with his disciples? Did He ever inflict pain on them? Not that I can remember. But they certainly did learn over time and became great witnesses for Him.

[4thekids]

That God has never spanked you. Never once has a wooden spoon come flying at your butt being led by an invisible hand. :rolleyes :shrug Getting sick and losing a job are not spankings. If they want to insist of those being spankings then tell them that you don't have any problem figuratively spanking your kids. If they go outside and it is cold and they refuse to wear a coat they just may end up with a figurative spank (a cold). :shrug

[Can Dance]

The problem is Chris, their view of God is still stuck in a punitive paradigm.
As Christians God doesn't punish us. you can't change their view on punishment until they change their view on God. :shrug

[ArmsOfLove]

But, when we are stubborn and won't listen, God "spanks" us. He may send an illness. .the loss of a job. . . .hard times, or whatever it will take to turn us away from the path He didn't want us on.I'd like to see the Scripture reference for that one

[cklewis]

:sad2 As someone, like you, who has been through "deep waters," I can't believe they can look you straight in the eye and say that hard times are God's punishing you. Have they read Job and read what God said to similar comforters?

C

[Strumbelina]

:popcorn

[katiekind]

Yes, the line of thinking goes that way. Confusingly, I don't see anything in that line of thinking that would confine it to children of any certain age, but most people who do hold those views would probably not spank a teen. I wonder if the reason is not biblical thinking but that they possess more comfort, experience and acceptance for other forms of discipline when it comes to teens.

If they say that God "spanks" us by making us get sick, I think you have to say, "how do you know that?"

Typically that kind of statement is the result of fuzzy thinking. So many people think in cliches, it shuts out real thought. What they are REALLY thinking might be that God allows natural consequences, which is something you DO do.

On the other hand, in the Bible God offers mercy and grace over and over again but also -- at last -- JUDGES with great rigor and finality. A lot of what we, perhaps sloppily, term "punishment" is actually shown in the Bible as a final judgment, and thus not an appropriate path for parents to pursue with their children. Also, puzzlingly, the persecuted Jewish Christians in the book of Hebrews are told they're being persecuted for discipline. Very few people would consider it right to follow God's example in that situation--"sorry about those bullies, sweetheart, I'm using them for your discipline."

Just some thoughts.

[Aisling]

But, when we are stubborn and won't listen, God "spanks" us. He may send an illness. .the loss of a job. . . .hard times, or whatever it will take to turn us away from the path He didn't want us on.I'd like to see the Scripture reference for that one

Yep. :/ Me too.

[mom2threePKs]

For me, that line of thinking (that illness, loss of a job or hard times is God's way of punishing us or discipling us) is so far from my understanding of theology and the very nature of God that there isn't much left to say. We would be so far apart in our thinking that to continue the conversation we'd have to go back to very basic theology and doctrine: The nature of God, The Atoning Sacrifice of Christ, even The Depravity of Man. You and hte other person aren't even speaking the same language. Until you do there isn't much you can say or not say to rebutt their argument. :shrug

Magan

[MarynMunchkins]

Cut and pasted from my blog because I'm :nak It's about Creative Correction, but applies here. :)

"By training our kids to respect authority, we're teaching them to relate to God." (pg.26)

WRONG.

Who were the first people on Earth? Did they need parents in order to teach them how to relate to God? No, Adam and Eve related to God, who taught them how to relate to each other. Our relationships with human beings flow from our relationship with God.

Look at what Jesus said in Matthew 22:35-39.
One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'



Notice that the primary concern is to love God. After one has learned to love God, he will be able to love his neighbor as himself. And why can he love himself? Simply, of course, because “We love because he first loved us.”



Let’s look at everyone’s favorite verse about obedience, Ephesians 6:1. No, actually, let’s back up and read the chapter before. Because that is where we learn the real key to children being able to obey their parents. Ephesians 5: 1-2 says "Be imitators of God, therefore, as dearly loved children and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." It is only after admonishing us to live a life modeled after God that Paul gives instructions for husbands and wives and then children.



You see, God didn’t give us human relationships so we could learn to relate to Him. He gave us His Son so that we may have a relationship with Him. What we learn and experience in that relationship can then flow to every other relationship that we experience.

[rosesnsnails]

I really like that Mary. :rockon

I agree with a pp. If they see God as someone who is always ready to squash us when we fail, grace would be a foriegn idea to them.

[Chris3jam]

Thanks. :)

And, thanks, Mary! That makes so much sense and is usually the opposite of what we're taught!

I'd like to see the Scripture reference for that one

I'll ask, but usually what they cite is the way God treated His people, the Israelites. When they turned away from Him, He would send them into slavery or send something else bad. As pastor is fond of saying, "God will discipline and punish His children first, and then those that aren't His." And, you're right. We don't speak the same language anymore. When they read Jonah, say, they see God sending the storm, removing the shade, etc., which all seems very 'mean'. 9/11, for instance, was God allowing something 'bad' to give us a 'wake up call', but we also see His mercy, because it could have been sooooo much worse (and then pastor gives the example that there really should have been more people in those buildings at that time, the miraculous 'escapes', etc., etc). :shrug

[ArmsOfLove]

Yeah, they have absolutely horrid understanding of God's relationship with Israel :rolleyes2 "Israel My Beloved" is a book that will change your perspective really beautifully :hug

[Chris3jam]

"Israel My Beloved"

Is that the one by Kay Arthur?

[kwisie]

Yeah, they have absolutely horrid understanding of God's relationship with Israel :rolleyes2 "Israel My Beloved" is a book that will change your perspective really beautifully :hug


That book is wonderful! It helped changed my views on Israel, tool. :tu

[RubySlippers]

Chris.... :hug I'm going to share my reaction below, but it is not directed at you. :heart


But, when we are stubborn and won't listen, God "spanks" us. He may send an illness. .the loss of a job. . . .hard times, or whatever it will take to turn us away from the path He didn't want us on. We are a stiffnecked and stubborn people.
:eyebrow Because as Christians we really don't have a choice now and God will control us through pain???? :hunh

As a born again believer I wish to do God's will in response to His love and sacrifice for me...not because of some heavy-handed Dictator in the sky. :rolleyes2

[Rbonmom]

I've found the impasse comes in the theology. My family is punitive and they believe God is too and that He punishes His children. So, what can you say? Nothing really :shrug They believe very off base things about God and our relationship to Him, so we can't end up at the same place when it comes to parenting, kwim?
:hugheart to you though, I would have such a hard time hearing that junk all the time, and being challenged on it :no2

[Beth1231]

When my punitive mindset starts to creep back in (maybe every other day?), these sorts of threads help so much. Reminders about grace and forgiveness. I remember my mom teaching me that God punishes or "spanks" us when we do something wrong. Sheesh, no wonder I struggle so much with thinking things like "I didn't eat well this week; maybe I"ll have a miscarriage because I'm not respecting the gift God gave me." The thought of my children being free of this is just this amazing WOW joy. :heart

[Auroras mom]

I was raised with this mindset, so now every time something bad happens (car breaks down, one of us gets sick, etc.) I automatically think "Where is the sin in my life? Why did I fail so God had to do this?" The other side of this legalistic line of theology is that by being "good enough" we can "earn" God's love, grace, goodness, and forgiveness, which is so flawed. They preach that grace is unmerited favor, yet the punitive mindset teaches otherwise in practice. What it does is encourage discouragement and disillusionment. I gave up on God years ago, because I could never be good enough. (Thank goodness He didn't give up on me).

I hope God can heal my mind of this garbage and that my daughter never experiences this type of flawed relationship with God.

[herbalwriter]

When my punitive mindset starts to creep back in (maybe every other day?), these sorts of threads help so much. Reminders about grace and forgiveness.

:yes

As for a rebuttal, I would simply say that I don't view bad things happening to me as spankings from God, but rather as consequences for either 1.) less-than-perfect behavior on my part (i.e., eating a pound of butter every day may result in a heart attack, but that's not God punishing me for poor eating habits...it's the way the world is set up), or 2.) an attack from the enemy that needs to be rebuked and the ground given to the enemy regained. It's okay, IMO, to ask God to search your heart like David did and show you where you may be "opening doors" to the enemy, but that does *not* mean that God is using satan to punish you. It means satan is satan and he got in through a door you left open. :shrug

I would also ask them that if God punishes us, and therefore we are to punish our children, what is the point of a Savior? Why even have Jesus at all if His taking of our punishment did not do just that - take our punishment for us?

[cklewis]

he got in through a door you left open. :shrug

And I would put it more as the Enemy broke down that door and entered "unlawfully."

C

[herbalwriter]

I think it works both ways but I won't get into it in this thread! :-)

[RubySlippers]

As for a rebuttal, I would simply say that I don't view bad things happening to me as spankings from God, but rather as consequences for either 1.) less-than-perfect behavior on my part (i.e., eating a pound of butter every day may result in a heart attack, but that's not God punishing me for poor eating habits...it's the way the world is set up), or 2.) an attack from the enemy that needs to be rebuked and the ground given to the enemy regained. It's okay, IMO, to ask God to search your heart like David did and show you where you may be "opening doors" to the enemy, but that does *not* mean that God is using satan to punish you. It means satan is satan and he got in through a door you left open. :shrug

I think there are more possibilities than those. Sometimes we suffer because of someone else's sin, an accident, or because it is something that is common to man. I think what Jesus was getting at in Luke 13:1-5, is that regardless the reason, we should be sure our relationship is right with Him and not judge people who suffer--just because they suffer--as wicked.

[Titus2Momof4]

Well, God does teach us, and try to turn us from the harmful way. He does have patience with us and help us. But, when we are stubborn and won't listen, God "spanks" us. He may send an illness. .the loss of a job. . . .hard times, or whatever it will take to turn us away from the path He didn't want us on. We are a stiffnecked and stubborn people. We need to do the same with our children. We do teach. . .we do direct. . .we do show and help. . .but, at those times where their sinful stubborn nature just won't let go, we *have* to get their attention. Spanking must be a consequence for certain things. Because it is such a big deal, spanking should just be for direct disobedience, but still must be employed, otherwise the children will *never* learn just how important it is to obey. And, in not obeying us, and not having respect for us, they will never be able to respect and obey God.

What stands out to me is.. these people say that God "spanks" us, but he "spanks" us in different forms- illness, job loss, hard times, etc. So, he doesn't literally spank us, but he (allegedly) sends these "consequences" to us. OK. I don't totally agree w/that, BUT, using that logic, God does not "spank" us. God gives us "consequences". There is something wierd to me about assuming that God "spanks" just because he supposedly sends us consequences. Why does the interpretation have to assume he "spanks" us? KWIM? I would point that out....

[katiekind]

Why does the interpretation have to assume he "spanks" us? KWIM? I would point that out....

Exactly. People who say stuff like that aren't being precise enough with their language and thinking, and it does make quite a difference!

[Chris3jam]

Why does the interpretation have to assume he "spanks" us?

I've brought up the 'consequences' angle. They say it's a 'spanking' because it hurts. Because it is so unpleasant. :shrug (my thought? so are some consequences)

[Titus2Momof4]

Why does the interpretation have to assume he "spanks" us? KWIM? I would point that out....

Exactly. People who say stuff like that aren't being precise enough with their language and thinking, and it does make quite a difference!


Well, it's pretty much "reaching", IMO.

I remember I used to read on a board about the "rod" and such, and the word "beat" (I dont' recall that verse, but I know it exists). Some people are just so, IMO, simple minded. They look at that verse and say "that does it, the bible says 'rod' and so I must use a 'rod'. It says he we 'beat' him he won't die, so that must mean a literal rod." Now, to *me* it is so obvious that the Bible has been translated several times, over many many years, and so, what WE have (the Bible we read) is several translations later. So, it would make sense to me to be interested in looking at the *original* text...what the original word was, that we interpet as "rod" or "beat". Punitive parents who want to justify the rod say that we are "explaining away" these verses, but I totally don't see it that way- I see it as, we are looking to the *original* word, and examining it. And I have seen Crystal do this in posts before--you know, those deep theological posts that sometimes go over my head LOL--and seriously, if people would just *look* at the original words, and what they meant, they might be surprised!

I have to say, the in the couple of time we have turned to spanking, I have always said that I don't spank because I think the Bible tells me to do so-I have NEVER EVER thought that the Bible commands spanking. Ever. I spanked because it seeemed to work (tho the reality was it didn't), but I never could justify spanking with the Bible. :no I wish people would look to the original text, and not take our modern translations and get so hung on those. :td

[Titus2Momof4]

Why does the interpretation have to assume he "spanks" us?

I've brought up the 'consequences' angle. They say it's a 'spanking' because it hurts. Because it is so unpleasant. :shrug (my thought? so are some consequences)


That's my thought too :shrug I think what they are saying is ridiculous- it's a spanking because it "hurts"?? So does the loss of freedom to color in your room because you have colored on the wall. So does the loss of being able to go to outside activities because you aren't giving your family your best. So does not being able to swim in the pool because you have such a hard time with coming in. :shrug

What did they say to you when you brought up this angle?

[katiekind]

Consequences can be very painful. Sounds like a classic case of "talking past one another".

That's why I don't do spanking conversations on the internet and I wouldn't do one in real life unless I could sit down with the person for a long enough period of time so that we could each unravel the layers of assumptions that we might have about each other's position.

[Chris3jam]

What did they say to you when you brought up this angle?

Well, 'spanking' is God actually causing this thing to happen. . . .consequences (although they can be painful) happen as a natural result of an action (stick your hand in the fire, it gets burned vs. seeing a child about to stick a hand in a fire, and swooping down and spanking to keep him from getting burned. You're 'saving' him, and at the same time, 'teaching' him never to do it again.) I've gotten that response. . .and I've also gotten 'bean-dipped'. :giggle Yes. I recognize it when it happens. . .

[Titus2Momof4]

What did they say to you when you brought up this angle?

Well, 'spanking' is God actually causing this thing to happen. . . .consequences (although they can be painful) happen as a natural result of an action (stick your hand in the fire, it gets burned vs. seeing a child about to stick a hand in a fire, and swooping down and spanking to keep him from getting burned. You're 'saving' him, and at the same time, 'teaching' him never to do it again.) I've gotten that response. . .and I've also gotten 'bean-dipped'. :giggle Yes. I recognize it when it happens. . .


OK, well, obviously what they describe (I would tell them this) is natural consequences. Sounds like they see "consequences" as only being "natural consequences". When you see a child about to stick his hand in a fire and swooping down to spank him-- how about preventitive measures, and blocking the fire off so the child can't get to it? This would be "saving" him too :shrug As for teaching him not to do it again.....errrrr not quite. Just spanking him is not "teaching him to not do it again" (I know I'm preaching to the choir here- I'm just trying to give you stuff to say to these people). Spanking him is making him confused- he goes to reach for the fire, and he gets stung by a swat from mom. How do they know that the toddler even makes the connection of "reaching for fire=sting by mama"?? And even if he does make the connection, a toddler is too young to really "learn" from this, which is why *prevention* would make more sense to me. :scratch

[Chris3jam]

Spanking him is making him confused- he goes to reach for the fire, and he gets stung by a swat from mom. How do they know that the toddler even makes the connection of "reaching for fire=sting by mama"?? And even if he does make the connection, a toddler is too young to really "learn" from this, which is why *prevention* would make more sense to me.

Yeah. . . this is kinda what I was trying to get through to dh today (with our situation today). But, there *still* seems to be this idea of, "but it has to cost them something! it has to hurt!"

A little OT here. . you reminded me of a little story my 6th grade teacher-turned-dean-at-my-high-school told me when I visited him after graduation. He was always very funny. . . .he told a little story of a little boy who was fascinated by the fire in the fireplace. He would reach his hand toward it, and momma would smack his hand. So, now when he feels anything warm, he says, "Hard! Hard!" :giggle Ok. .so not funny. . .. in a funny-ha-ha way. . .. .but funny in an ironic way, you know?

[ArmsOfLove]

Chris--I'd just ask your dh how well what he's doing is working for him :shifty

[Strumbelina]

That's why I don't do spanking conversations on the internet and I wouldn't do one in real life unless I could sit down with the person for a long enough period of time so that we could each unravel the layers of assumptions that we might have about each other's position.



I need to follow this example, as I will start talking with someone about this and we really don't have enough time to "get into it" properly and then we leave each other and later I am knowing that person didn't have an opportunity to really understand where I was coming from, and so is probably even more convinced that hitting their kid is the right thing. :blush