Fear and pain as motivators....do these thoughts make sense???

[KitKat]

OK, so the concept behind spanking is that pain and fear are motivators for improved behavior. I think I have evidence in the flaw behind this theory.

So, bear with me here because I am going to try to make sense.


OK so Saturday, Simon (9 months old) was leaning on a door. He fell out the door when dh opened it, and busted his head. He needed stitches and was in alot of pain. According to the concept that justifies spanking, he should never go near that door again, RIGHT!! OK because he was afraid, he was in pain, it should be effective in motivating him to stay away from that door. YET!! He is STILL going over to that door and leaning on it.

Now for the naysayers who may say that he is too young to comprehend natural consequences, example 2...

Sunday morning, Lara (3 years old) was rough-housing in the living room, near the fireplace. She whacked her head on the brick and needed a staple. So, according to the concept that justifies spanking, she should never rough house in the living room again. She was scared and in pain (though with her minimal which is what spanking advocates say a spanking is), so it should be effective in motivating her to not rough house in the living room. YET!!! She STILL rough houses in the living room. Just this morning, I had to tell her and her brother to knock it off.

So, with these examples, I have come to firmly believe that the concept of fear and pain as a motivator in children, is massively flawed.

[SouthPaw]

well, fear and pain *can* actually be perfectly effective ways to modify behavior. the problem is the fallout and the way they work. the first incident you mention links a specific action (leaning on the door) with falling out of the door. however, in many cases it takes more than one instance of learning to modify behavior. also, the amount of times that behavior was rewarding will stack up against the one time it caused him pain. thus, he may still choose to perform the leaning behavior. that applies to the second example as well.

:grin that's just my take from a behavioral perspective. and those are some of the (behavioral) reasons that using fear and pain, although it CAN be effective, is a bad idea.

[Chris3jam]

I've heard that before. :rolleyes2 I even heard it from an educational perspective! IOW, why do people do their taxes? Because they 'fear' the consequences of *not* doing them. And the problem is, the 'consequences' have to become increasingly severe for it to remain effective. . . . .

[SouthPaw]

right, in order for a punishment to be effective, it must be immediate, must follow each instance of the behavior, and must be sufficiently aversive. starting out with a less severe punishment leads to behavioral callousness to the punishment. another reason it is a Bad Idea; either you start out with huge punishments that are sure to work but are most likely too "big" for the "crime", or you build a dynamic of constant escalation. ick ick ick.

[CelticJourney]

If pain discouraged behavior, children would never learn to walk.

[Titus2Momof4]

:think

I don't know if I fully agree, though. I think fear and pain *can* be motivators. :scratch It just isn't the motivator that I want to be using, LOL I think kids can be conditioned to obey, by using pain. I think it's wrong, but I think it's possible. Maybe I'm not understanding what you are trying to say, though. :/

Oh, and a few weeks ago we were at playgroup, at someone's 2-story house. Noah toppled down the stairs, I raaaaaaan over faster than lightning (I had been about less than 10 ft away, and he had been doing great about going up and down the right away) you can imagine I was MORTIFIED to watch him tumble down as it felt like I was walking through water as I watched in horror while running over to him. I cuddled him, held him (he didn't even cry!) and I think he just got scared. As soon as I put him down, what do you think he did????? :rolleyes So this time I stood pretty much halfway up the stairs (wishing the lady would just have had a gate at the BOTTOM of the stairs so he couldn't get to the stairs, but she didn't, so what could I do, kwim) so I could reach him at all times, and I'd go up a couple steps, down a couple, etc if needed.

[KitKat]

Well, I guess what I am trying to say is this....

When I spanked, I did it because I felt it was MORE effective than other methods. I felt that it was "safe" to let my kids near the stove and such, because they had been "taught".

The whole concept that I preached was that I KNEW they wouldn't do it because they feared a spanking. I KNEW they wouldn't run into the road or touch a hot stove etc. because they feared the pain of punishment. These incidents just showed me that no amount of pain is a garauntee of better behavior.

[Chris3jam]

I KNEW they wouldn't run into the road or touch a hot stove etc. because they feared the pain of punishment.

Didn't work for us. All they would do was look around to see if anyone was watching before they did it. :shrug I saw them. . . .. . .

[KitKat]

I KNEW they wouldn't run into the road or touch a hot stove etc. because they feared the pain of punishment.

Didn't work for us. All they would do was look around to see if anyone was watching before they did it. :shrug I saw them. . . .. . .


EXACTLY!! This is what I mean.

[Aisling]

yeah...it works for some kids and not for others. It worked for me, and that is exactly why it was damaging. I was too afraid to openly make (or own) my mistakes because I feared pain. Which enabled a lot of crummy things in my life.

I think the real issue parents have to face when examining their parenting is whether inflicting pain is ever justified, whether their child responds with obedience or not. That's when they move past wanting to control their child's behavior to parenting the child as a whole...behavior, mind, emotion, and spirit. :heart

[Titus2Momof4]

I KNEW they wouldn't run into the road or touch a hot stove etc. because they feared the pain of punishment.

Didn't work for us. All they would do was look around to see if anyone was watching before they did it. :shrug I saw them. . . .. . .


EXACTLY!! This is what I mean.


Us too. I mean, there were some things that I guess it did work for... but more and more it seemed, there were just more and more incidents that it wasn't working as the motivator. So we did what we were advised by spanking parents- spank harder. Well, I'm sorry, but you can only spank so hard before it becomes real abuse. I couldn't spank any harder. Not because I was a softie, but because if I went any harder, I would have been abusing. Some kids just have behind that are tough as leather!!

Would you believe that it was actually a Supernanny episode that made my dh decide we weren't going to spank anymore?? :grin Compared to the spanking we were doing, Supernanny was :tu - at least it was non-spanking, and it was definitely a start. Baby steps, kwim. I still remember my dh sitting on the couch that night looking so bummed, while we watched, and saying "Man, I hate spanking the kids... I don't want to spank anymore..." We had quite a conversation about it. I knew I could come here to GCM-because I've tried GBD before, so I knew that the community existed- to get help on the road to nonspanking, so I did. I also knew that Supernanny is still punitive to GCMers (and me now too), but honestly it was my "crutch" in the beginning when we decided to not spank--like, it taught me that I can be hands off (physically) and be creative about discipline. My HEART is with AP--*that* is the style of parenting we started out at when we discovered it when the twins were a few months old, and we stuck with it, until they hit about 2.5 and I had no idea what to do. That was also before I knew about GCM-the only aPers I knew were not christians, and around this time I became a Christian, and that is where the trouble started, for me. It just so happens that I got involved with really conservative christians, and that is when we started spanking.We quit and went back to AP (permissive was more like it I think) and then went back to spanking. We spanked for about a year, before the Supernanny evening.The more I read here, though, the better I got about the nonpunitive--not just nonspanking--parenting. I spend a ton of time here learning (and sometimes just chatting lol) and really enjoy it here. :)

[TulipMama]

My HEART is with AP--*that* is the style of parenting we started out at when we discovered it when the twins were a few months old, and we stuck with it, until they hit about 2.5 and I had no idea what to do. That was also before I knew about GCM-the only aPers I knew were not christians, and around this time I became a Christian, and that is where the trouble started, for me. . . . that is when we started spanking.

Sounds a lot like my Mom's experience. *huuuug*