I think my cousin might be following Pearl

[kazoo]

My cousin and his wife have 5 boys and are expecting a girl in December. His wife has said she wants at least 10 kids. That would be awesome, if it weren't for the fact that none of the family can stand to be around them b/c it's painful to watch them spank their kids as much as they do. Or worse, take them out to the van, and return with a stoic, tearless child. :bheart

What is also painful is that this is not who my cousin is. He used to be a wonderfully kind person. My aunt/his mother worries about the kids a lot. They are very heavy-handed with them. My mom keeps asking me if there is a book she could get them for Christmas that might help them start thinking in different ways. My aunt thinks that they were introduced to this method of discipline (Pearl?) by someone at their church. :sick

When I think about them, I tend to feel hopeless that they could change, which I know is the wrong attitude, but they have been disciplining 5 kids this way and are somehow immersed in the philosophy. Nevertheless, we have all started praying for them b/c my aunt in particular is so troubled by it.

If anyone has any advice as to what else we could do for them, that would be appreciated. My mother suggested a book b/c they sent the family a book for Christmas a few years ago. (It was called "When I don't Desire God," and I can't help wondering if they are feeling far from Him b/c they aren't reflecting him in their parenting.) :cry

[hsgbdmama]

:bheart Someone might want to plant a bug in their ear about DSS/DFS. :cry

I would look at the wonderful list of books listed in one of the stickies.

VanVonderen's or Kimmel's books might be too radical to start with; Lehman's Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours would be a good starting point, as would books by Turansky/Miller.

[Titus2Momof4]

Dont take this the wrong way, but- there seems to be a lot of discussion amongst family members *about* them, but has anyone had any discussion *with* them? Maybe that would help, particularly if you come from a punitive background (meaning, if you are a former spanker) I consider that to be the 'bright side' to my having gotten involved w/Pearl, and dappled with Ezzo--at least I know what it's like to have been into that, and so if I suggest GD to someone, I can answer all the "but what if..." questions. Seeing the glass half full anyway.... I still regret it, because I feel like it REALLY has damaged my relationship with my older two, but they :heart think so highly of me, that I'm the best mom ever, etc, so I must not have done too much damage :amen I just have to remind myself many times, that even tho my 6 y/o's are my oldest, they are still only 6. Ah, here I go on a hijacking tangent yet again..............Anyway..... :D

[CelticJourney]

Dont take this the wrong way, but- there seems to be a lot of discussion amongst family members *about* them, but has anyone had any discussion *with* them?

I know you said you dabbled, but for the 'true-believer' it is a different mind-set and a different approach is needed. There is a belief among avid users of either Ezzo or Pearl that what they are doing is rightous and Godly. Many parts of the program are specifically designed to prepare of 'non-likeminded' 'less than Christians' who are 'disobedient to God's plan of order' speaking against what they are doing. Once they specifically mention the programs, either they have some agreement or not, there seems to be no inbetween - mostly it's a door slammed in their face.

Assuming that you have not talked about Pearl or Ezzo with them before and that you can find a good excuse, The Suble Power of Spiritual Abuse is good - especially for avoiding the parenting issue head on. Otherwise, maybe Grace Based Parenting. Pick up a copy and read it so that when you pass it along (or a copy) you can honestly say 'I read this recently and it touched me, so I wanted to share.'

And yes, mentioning DSS is a possibility, but if they are 'true-believers' it probably won't stop what is happening at home unless DSS is willing to take the kids from them. If they are in the gray zone, it might wake them up to what they are doing.

If for some reason you do end up talking to them directly about it - keep the topic on Pearl/Ezzo and NEVER let them turn it to 'well, you don't..." or "we don't take it to extremes". When it becomes personal, the doors slam hard.

[Titus2Momof4]

I get what you are saying. Well, I was "into" Pearls...had their books (but never read fully except TTUAC, and part of the NGJ books), read the newsletters, hung out amongst Pearl-followers online, etc, for several months. With Ezzo, I kinda got into it just b/c I liked the idea of a schedule (actually, it's funny-I rec'd one of their books through Freecycle, accidently, and at first shoved it aside, then when I thought I'd like a more regular routine for my baby, I picked it up and read it), so I read the bw2 book, found a couple lists online, and was going to be doing a gkgw class. I admit the only thing I 'liked' (except it didn't work) about Ezzo was the scheduling- everything else I always seemed to be :banghead on my lists when I'd read the posts-- so I do kwym about the 'mindset' of the die-hard ones. After a couple months I kinda dismissed the scheduling thing b/c it wasn't working, but for the next few months, I would on and off keep trying- so determined to make it work! LOL Well, finally I just said, to heck with it, I don't agree with anything he has to say besides having a schedule, and even that I can't seem to make work, so I think we'll just try *routine*. Ever since then that's what we've been doing and that's what works best for us. Pearls, however, sadly, I have more 'die-hard' experience with. :O :bheart

It's good (to the op....) if you can find out exactly what 'method' they are following. Although there are similarities b/c Ezzo and Pearl, the focus seems to be, from what I can tell, a little different. Ezzo is all about scheduling and "times" (room time, quiet time, individual play time, playpen time, structured play time, etc)...and Pearl is all about "training" (swats, creating scenarios to be able to swat them in, looking for power struggles/training opportunities) Either way, like the PP said, there is this 'high and mighty' belief amongst the followers, so that alone can make them seem unapproachable. I like the PP suggestion to keep whatever discussion factual and on Ezzo/Pearl. Try to find out what it is they are following. I'm amazed that the whole family doesn't care to be around them due to their harsh parenting, and that *that* hasn't been a clue to them. Then again, you all are probably "misguided,and unbiblical" or something.. (in their eyes, I mean)

ETA, because it might be helpful if they are doing Ezzo-- is that over the months of trying to do Ezzo, I was in contact with AnneMarie (Ezzo's wife) several times (email). Finally, I had kinda reached the 'to heck with it' point, and emailed her again, this long email telilng her I just can't do it, I don't know how these people are doing it (the scheduling I mean), telling her the problems I was having with my schedules, how we'd get off track, how this suggestion in their book wasn't working, that wasn't working, etc. Do you know what her reply to me was?

This:




That's right- nothing. I was really bugged by that. I mean, when I was into the method and pro-BW, she was a quick responder, but then when I emailed all that, she didn't reply. And yes, she was online, b/c she was on an Ezzo list with me so I would see her still posting, she just didn't reply to my email (and I even alluded to an email I had sent her, on the list, and still.......nothing.) So, not only are their books pretty icky, but even on a more personal level it seems there is no answer when you tell them you are doing everything but it doesn't work.

In any case, I'm going to guess your relatives are using Pearl, but it's possible they are using Ezzo too, so thought I'd throw that out there.

[Blue Savannah]

we have all started praying for them b/c my aunt in particular is so troubled by it

Before you can get through to them, God needs to change their hearts or you will just be :banghead. I think this is the best thing you could be doing for their children right now. God knows what will reach the parents. I hope (for their children's sake) that He shows you what that will be very soon.

:pray

[TulipMama]

The book you mentioned they liked is by John Piper, who comes from a Reformed Baptist point of view.

If that is their theological leaning, you may help them raise some warnings and yellow flags about the Pearls theology and Bible teachings.

These links provide more info:
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/09/michael-and-debi-pearls-no-greater-joy_30.html
http://allthings2all.blogspot.com/2005/10/michael-pearl-on-original-sin-analysis_11.html


Now as to a book they would be open to, receptive of. . . Hmmmmm. . . It's a really hard call. . .


If they like the Pearls, they may not like Jeff VV (Families Where Grace is in Place) because his writing style seems to have critics say it sounds like to much pop-psychology and not enough Scripture. (I read his book while thinking about lots of other things the Lord had been teaching me in my walk, so I "filtered" what he wrote through that and found the ideas to be very Biblical and in line with the Gospel. But it is not as explicit as many would like.) Ironically, I think a lot of the Pearls' teachings reflect secular-humanistic psych ideas, and do not treat children as image-bearers of God or people worthy of the Gospel. . . But FWGIIP is probably a good book that won't feel like an "attack" on their parenting, but will open up thoughts that can lead to a paradigm shift in thinking about children, grace, the Gospel, and parenting.

Clay Clarkson's book may be better received because his writing style conveys his conservative, Christian beliefs and doesn't sound like pop-psychology. (Again, something that many Pearl/Ezzo parents would be turned off by--anything that sounds like psych. . .) However, parents are notoriously resistant to other people giving them books about "parenting"--the underlying message often heard is "we don't like your parenting, try this." Which, actually, is the motivation in this case. *L* It depends on the family and your relationship with them and if they like books and you think they would receive it openly and well. If that could be done, this is the book I'd probably give.

[kazoo]

Thank you all so much for your posts -- very helpful and insightful. Sorry to have been away for so many days -- busy w/ work... ah well.

The PP's note about the implication of giving a book being a way of saying "I don't like your parenting" is so true -- I thought about that, b/c I KNOW that is the way I would perceive it if it were me, and I would become even more resistant, looking at the book-giver as being too wordly and myself as being on the straight and narrow. <sigh> The other problem is that they have 6 kids to my one, and the oldest is about 8 I think, so the implication of disapproval would be quite obvious, since I'm obviously not coming from experience!! That said, the suggestion about the book on spiritual abuse -- that is something that could be helpful. I'm legitimately interested in reading it, too.

I thought about just asking them what they are doing, in a "hey, what parenting books did you like?" sort of way, although that might be sort of misleading, b/c I'd be asking w/ a tone of interest, when I'm definitely not interested. I also want to avoid implicating other family members, particularly my aunt (cousin's mother), which will be hard to do b/c I haven't been to see them since any of their kids were born. But I remember when the first DS was born, w/ cleft palate, how my cousin called my dad (who is an ENT surgeon) to ask his advice. He was himself then -- warm and caring. But the cousin I hear about now is not the same person. <sigh>

Anyway, prayer is always the hard answer, isn't it? ;) No easy, formulaic answers. Kind of like parenting, LOL. Thanks again everyone -- I'll review your answers again when I can think about it more clearly (too early in morning) and see about reading that book perhaps.