Raising Godly Tomatoes

[mama2three]

A site I am a member of is singing the praises of www .raising godly tomatoes. com and I have not had a big look through it but what I have seen makes my skin crawl. Anyone know anything about this? Any advice I can dole out to this other website reader? Thanks.

[Marzipan]

Not consistent with a grace based understanding of discipline at all. :no2

Also, you probably want to break that link. :)

[mama2three]

Oh yuck, the more I read the sicker I feel.

[joyful mama]

Deleted

[mama2three]

I can't find who writes the site for the life of me......help!

[BHope]

When DD1 was just newly born I started coming by here more frequently. (Mostly lurking) I told a dear friend that I was looking into all this "GBD stuff" and she suggested I check out The Wood-shed first. So I joined. I really had a hard time with it all. And this is me when I was still on the fence about spanking. (After all, I was spanked and turned out fine... blah blah blah.) I'm actually quite thankful I joined though. It really forced me to face my parenting choices and to seek out more information. It definately didn't have the affect on me that my friend thought it would. lol. She's still an active member, and I'm pretty sure my username has been scrubbed from the system by now.

I :heart GCM.

[4blessings]

My recommendation would be to stay far away from that site if you are striving to be a non-punitive parent. I used to lurk there quite a bit (I don't know why). I knew it was not good, biblical parenting advice (IMNSHO), yet it was like a car wreck...I just couldn't look away. After several months, I realized that my relationship with my children was becoming much more adversarial. I was seeing them through different eyes. I don't know how it happened, but it did. It was bizarre, b/c my skin would crawl when I would read the advice given, but it still changed my relationship with my children. I didn't turn to spanking, but I did become more punitive. It was like poison for me. (Why is that, BTW? Have others had that experience?)

They are big on "tying heartstrings", co-sleeping, EBF, etc. but they are also big on uber-punitive parenting...swats, "I mean business spankings", outlasting the child, some weird "bootcamp" idea, things like hot saucing, etc. I guess I can't really say much about what I read there b/c I understand there's some sort of "agreement" b/t the owner of that site and this one. Suffice it to say that too much of it turned my stomach and made me sad.

[4blessings]

I can't find who writes the site for the life of me......help!



I PMed you.

[4blessings]

Oh, yeah. One more thing...the message board, where the really icky stuff is written, is private. Hmmm... :scratch Make you wonder...

[Rabbit]

Listening to punitive parents does that to me, too. For a month, I freaked about having to have a set bedtime, and a routine based on other people's schedules, instead of a routine that worked for my family, in this season of our life, with my HN daughter. We're back to getting 10 hours of a sleep a night, with a 3 hour nap, every day, without argument or fuss.

-Natalie

[hiddenhippie6]

:td Another site I used to belong to liked that too. Not GBD at all.

[Titus2Momof4]

After several months, I realized that my relationship with my children was becoming much more adversarial. I was seeing them through different eyes. I don't know how it happened, but it did. It was bizarre, b/c my skin would crawl when I would read the advice given, but it still changed my relationship with my children. I didn't turn to spanking, but I did become more punitive. It was like poison for me. (Why is that, BTW? Have others had that experience?)

:yes

I used to be a member there, too.... it's wierd how just reading that stuff - even though it makes your skin crawl - creeps into your mind. Like, you read it and think :sick2 at the stuff you read... but then you don't even realize how it creeps into your mind--later when you are dealing with a 2 y/o who is just being 2, you think to yourself "I bet I could swat this out of him.....those 2 y/o's are capable of XYZ, so technically my 2 y/o *could be capable, etc......" and then you start to have a very adverserial relationship/outlook on your kids.... But then you have to really read there and remind yourself, the only reason those 2 //o's are capable of XYZ is because they are being 'swatted' for such piddly little things. The method "works" (for some people....didn't work for us) because you are swatting your child all day... but really, is that what you want?? I have my rough days, yes... We all do (even them :shifty) but honestly, I do not want to be hitting my kids/swatting them all day long. I know that it's hard to not spank, esp when you are used to that method (beliiiiiiiiiiiiieve me I know), but in the end I would much prefer to call myself an AP parent, and have a real relationship with my kids, not some humdrum boring "must have a happy face at all times" relationship. The owner of that site is really sweet, and IMO, even though she comes across as "hard as nails", she honestly is a softie :giggle The thing is, she has many ladies posting on her site, many uber-punitive ladies, which she herself does not even agreee with.... (just like here at GCM-there are many ladies that the mods would not agree with :shrug) I believe she loves her kids, but she honestly feels that spanking is the biblical way of parenting, and people who choose otherwise are being unbiblical.

[Can Dance]

I think the biggest part of that website is that its very subtle, sort of. you read about their co sleeping, their EBFing and then you read their discipline stuff. and its so matter of fact. so "if you do this then this will happen". it wasn't as if its not hard to critically think about what you are being told, but I think the manner in which its presented is kind of deceptive. like this one article talks about spanking/hitting your child. in this persons opinion its not a bad idea, but doesn't have to be a big deal either. I think that is what is most frightening to me about it. the day I start viewing hitting my daughter as "not a big deal" will be the day there is something seriously wrong with our relationship. but they don't view it that way.
the person also does not have a problem with the Pearls by the way. I remember a statement to the effect of "I don't see what the big deal is"..right... hitting your child repeatedly (the 8 month old reference really kills me) is okay? IMO there is a huge disconnect between their "AP" style of parenting and the extremely harsh way they "discipline".
its twisted in a very subversive manner. :td

[4blessings]

The owner of that site is really sweet, and IMO, even though she comes across as "hard as nails", she honestly is a softie

Really?!? Have you met her? She did not come across that way at all when I used to read there.

As for her not agreeing with advice given...Isn't it her responsibility, as site owner, to say so?

[Titus2Momof4]

*double post*

[Titus2Momof4]

The owner of that site is really sweet, and IMO, even though she comes across as "hard as nails", she honestly is a softie

Really?!? Have you met her? She did not come across that way at all when I used to read there.

As for her not agreeing with advice given...Isn't it her responsibility, as site owner, to say so? I remember one post specifically where a mom posted asking what people thought about poking their children with pins as punishment. Some responded that it wasn't really painful, just an attention-getter that worked. No one, not even the owner, responded saying anything negative about the idea. IMO, that gives the impression that she thinks it's on ok idea. Just one of many examples that come to mind. :shrug


Haven't "met" her, but have talked to her on the phone several times. And you know how you are on the phone with someone for 2hrs, several occassions, you kinda get a glimpse into their lifestyle, their parenting (the kids in the background), etc. Well, that's what I mean.

I kwym about "isn't it her responsibility" to say that she doesn't agree... The only thing I can say is, I know she is a very busy woman, and I wouldn't doubt that she probably doesn't have the time to read each and every post (that's why she has mods). And, IMO, if *I* were an owner of a site, I would hope that controversial posts would be brought to my attention, but maybe that's not how her board is, I dunno. Personally, I would feel like "if I don't say something contrary to this, then everyone will assume I agree"...that's true, and that's how I feel, but maybe she doesn't feel that way, necessarily.

BTW, I don't want to sound as though I am "condoning" the stuff posted there--my dh decided a couple of months ago that we weren't going to be doing that anymore, and we were not going to spank. So, that is not what we practice in our parenting. But, I just answered in reference to "has anyone had the experience of the ideas creeping in", and "does anyone know who the owner is".

[joyful mama]

The owner of that site is really sweet, and IMO, even though she comes across as "hard as nails", she honestly is a softie

Really?!? Have you met her? She did not come across that way at all when I used to read there.

As for her not agreeing with advice given...Isn't it her responsibility, as site owner, to say so? I remember one post specifically where a mom posted asking what people thought about poking their children with pins as punishment. Some responded that it wasn't really painful, just an attention-getter that worked. No one, not even the owner, responded saying anything negative about the idea. IMO, that gives the impression that she thinks it's on ok idea. Just one of many examples that come to mind. :shrug


Haven't "met" her, but have talked to her on the phone several times. And you know how you are on the phone with someone for 2hrs, several occassions, you kinda get a glimpse into their lifestyle, their parenting (the kids in the background), etc. Well, that's what I mean.

I kwym about "isn't it her responsibility" to say that she doesn't agree... The only thing I can say is, I know she is a very busy woman, and I wouldn't doubt that she probably doesn't have the time to read each and every post (that's why she has mods). And, IMO, if *I* were an owner of a site, I would hope that controversial posts would be brought to my attention, but maybe that's not how her board is, I dunno. Personally, I would feel like "if I don't say something contrary to this, then everyone will assume I agree"...that's true, and that's how I feel, but maybe she doesn't feel that way, necessarily.

BTW, I don't want to sound as though I am "condoning" the stuff posted there--my dh decided a couple of months ago that we weren't going to be doing that anymore, and we were not going to spank. So, that is not what we practice in our parenting. But, I just answered in reference to "has anyone had the experience of the ideas creeping in", and "does anyone know who the owner is".


my sister has spoken with her on the phone several times as well, and has portrayed this to me as well. I'm not condoning the site either, I just dont think she's as terrible as so many here think she is. Sure, the mindset is different, and the punitive methods are not what any of us think is necessary, but its not abusive or neglectful. No, I don't think spanking is right. Yes, I think there are other ways of discipling (I've been here 1 1/2 years now obviously I'm not going anywhere. I've never once left here to look for something different :rolleyes2). However, just b/c someone spanks doesn't make them an unloving parent. Some of the most loving parents I know spank as a form of discipline. I don't agree with it and frankly it doesn't make any sense to me, but it doesn't make them poor parents.

[flowermama]

I've only skimmed this thread, but I need to ask you not to talk about what is on the message board. Their message board is private, and it's not respectful to talk about what is on their board here.

We do not have an agreement with the website owner any more. But for netiquette reasons please do not talk about what is on their board. You may talk about her articles and such, but not what is on their message board. I am feeling uncomfortable with this thread.

[4blessings]

Flowermama...Sorry. I edited my post to remove the specific reference to what was on the message board. It doesn't do much good, though, since my statement was quoted a couple of times. :blush

I should have just stayed away from this thread. I can't ever talk about that site without revealing how stronglly I feel about it. :bheart

FTR, I never questioned whether or not the owner is a loving mom.

Backing away...

[joyful mama]

I deleted my stuff too. sorry Jerri. I should never open these threads. Its too close to home when my very dearest friend practicing this method :sad2

[Titus2Momof4]

I agree that there are many spanking loving parents, who spank because either they think they have to, biblically, or because 'it works', and I agree that that isn't necessarily abuse. But I do think there is a difference between your "normal" spanking, and the Pearl method of training/discipline/spanking. Both are :( but Pearl is :sick2 On the main page, which is public, she agrees the most with the Pearls.

[Benjaminswife]

From what I have seen there I think that site is very Pearl-like, very opposite of GCM and it makes me sad Christians can think that is right :(

[mama2three]

Wow, sorry about the :can. I can understand how strongly people feel about the rubbish on the site.
Makes my praise Him all the more for leading me to GCM!

[Titus2Momof4]

Wow, sorry about the :can. I can understand how strongly people feel about the rubbish on the site.
Makes my praise Him all the more for leading me to GCM!


:yes :amen

I know of several ladies here who actually discovered GCM either in a thread on the RaisingGodlyTomatoes site, or some other punitive site. So funny how that works-you come here thinking are these ladies crazy, they don't spank or punish? And then you start reading (admittedly, the car wreck analogy) After awhile, you kinda start to feel bummed about your parenting, that you are being too harsh (esp when you read informative links about the Pearls or Ezzos), and you literally look at the avatars of kids here, and think "gosh they are lucky to have *their mom who isn't swatting them all day :O"...til eventually for whatever reason, you decide to give it a try. Maybe you trip over yourself once or twice, and swing back to the spanking, but then when your dh decides to tell you he doesn't want to spank anymore, so you come back here, and you feel soooooo much better about this decision, that you decide to stick around. Then you quit reading the aforementioned site, and several of us here have actually been kicked off the site, but have talked to each other and said, you know what-its better this way. Because, just like we started reading here in the 'car wreck' way, but eventually took to it........so too the same thing happens when you start reading over there, or other punitive boards. So along the lines of the OP....it works both ways, and personally I'm glad to not be able to read there anymore, because it means that I won't be reading, therefore won't have things subtly creep into my mind. Better for my family, anyway :heart

[flowermama]

Thank you all. :heart I also have big feelings regarding what is taught at that website, so I understand. :bheart (((((((hugs))))))))

Titus2Momof4, I'm so glad you decided to stick around. *hugs*

I'm glad you all are here. Thank you for being part of the GCM community. :happytears :grouphug

[Titus2Momof4]

Thanks Jeri :) Besides, GCM has waaaaaaaaaaaaaay more forums, and more posters--there's a forum for everything, and I really like that. I also like that this board doesn't seem slanted in any one particular way (besides non-spanking). You have your more conservative Christians here, and then you have a mixture of other things (like the fact that many of us are pumped about H'ween coming up, and then several don't want anything to do with it.) But we can all respect the fact that some people DO see things differently, and it's ok... I like that in the marriage forum yes, we believe in submission, but for heavens sake sometimes people need to vent about their dh, and I like that we aren't told "re-read CTBHHM" like how dare we be upset at our hubby for something. I like the A&S forums broken down by age group...I like the Entertainment forums...etc. So much more here, and the parenting is gentle :tu BTW, when I say all the things I like about this forum, that isn't meant to be a side by side comparison to the site that is the subject of this thread-I'm just speaking in general here, I guess comparing GCM to several christian sites I've been to.

[ArmsOfLove]

I think that threads like this are a great reminder to be praying for those who believe what we disagree with because if the Lord were to touch the owner of that site with a deep understanding of Grace WOW what a powerful testimony that would be :amen

[Titus2Momof4]

I think that threads like this are a great reminder to be praying for those who believe what we disagree with because if the Lord were to touch the owner of that site with a deep understanding of Grace WOW what a powerful testimony that would be :amen


Especially since there is such a big following over there (not as many as here, but still a lot) That would be a nice testimony. And imagine how many more people would be *here...:) Well, it's a nice thought, but I just know there are posters who are active there who read here and either snicker, but secretly stuff creeps in, or those who are not 100% comfortable w/that parenting style, so read here secretly wishing to be able to post (that was me at one time). I wish they would post! I'm totally open to PM's! (maybe I should make my email public, now that I am more comfrotable with our decision and not so worried about who is going to see me posting?) I remember that that was how I got started here, was someone in this UPP forum had a testimony and I felt like she completely understood what I was going through, and so I emailed or PM'd... just kinda started talking, etc... :)

[canadiyank]

:grouphug I think this site is an amazing testimony to grace - no only to our children, but to others, each other, and ourselves. What a revelation that we can show grace to ourselves! :amen

[ServingGod]

I found GCM from that site as well.

[hsgbdmama]

but what I have seen makes my skin crawl

:cry That was my response too -- after reading stuff that was recommended to me from other boards. :bheart I too have been at GCM for 1.5 years, and could not go back to adversarial, punitive parenting. :no

[caranamomma]

But we can all respect the fact that some people DO see things differently, and it's ok...

How on earth can you say you respect the fact that people see things differently while saying such awful things about the women over at RGT? And the fact that you, who apparently was once the owner of that site's friend (close enough to talk to on the phone for several hours) and then go on to share such personal details about her and totally bash her way of parenting behind her back? You should be ashamed of yourself. :no2

I was a member here awhile ago and just got an e-mail notification that my membership was going to be cancelled because I haven't posted in awhile. I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway, but I wanted to come back and give it another try before I lost my membership due to not signing in often enough. This thread seriously makes me sick and I don't think I'll be coming back. To act like you all are so gentle and accepting while accusing God-fearing women who are doing the best they can to raise their children of such horrible things behind their backs. The proof is in the pudding and I would strongly encourage some of you who claim to be so "accepting" to get off your high horse and not be so quick to judge another's parenting, especially when they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Talk about hypocritical. :td

[canadiyank]

Kristi, I'm sorry you feel that way...if you read through the thread you'll see that there were many positive statements about the owner of the site and our owner stepped in to redirect this thread.

And as you realize, since you're reading this, this is hardly behind their backs - a public forum, and we are stating concerns about the site. Personally, I have never read there and don't know much about the site except that they promote punitive parenting. :shrug I can see how some of the posts were pushing the envelope of politeness, but they aren't saying terrible things behind backs or revealing details, either. :scratch

:hug

[caranamomma]

I read enough of the thread to see that many statements were extremely degrading to the women over at RGT and the way they parent while patting eachother on the back for being so "gentle" and "accepting". :rolleyes That just seems extremely hypocritical to me. I will not speak for the owner of RGT as I do not know her and have not talked to her about this, but I would be VERY hurt if a former friend posted about me and shared details of the extent of our relationship while bashing my parenting to other people, against my knowledge. I can assure you that she does know this thread exists and I would feel very ashamed and embarrassed if I were most of the posters in this thread. Especially to act like your form of parenting is so superior while claiming to be so incredibly "accepting". The way I look at it, the proof is in our children. If our children are happy, healthy and TRULY WELL BEHAVED AND RESPECTFUL, then who are we to judge how they got that way? If children were truly being mistreated or abused or whatever else has been implied in this thread, they would be miserable and acting out in various ways. From what I know of the ladies over at RGT, their kids speak for themselves.

[CelticJourney]

I need to speak as a moderator for this forum: Caranamomma, you obviously have some deep feelings about this issue, but attacking other posters is not permitted on this board. Discussion of ideas, either positively or negatively is completely acceptable, but bashing people is not. At this point I see no where that the participants of the other board are being discussed, only their ideas. People are free to express their opinions here provided they are done respectfully. Apparently several posters here have participated in the site in question and found some of the content to be disturbing. But I have also heard a defense of the site owner as a loving mother who seeks the best for her children.

As for the repeated use of the word 'accepting', we try very hard to accept people as individuals into our fellowship. We do NOT accept all ideas, as are clearly outlined in the Statement of Belief for this community.

[DogwoodMama]

I've only skimmed this thread, but I need to ask you not to talk about what is on the message board. Their message board is private, and it's not respectful to talk about what is on their board here.

We do not have an agreement with the website owner any more. But for netiquette reasons please do not talk about what is on their board. You may talk about her articles and such, but not what is on their message board. I am feeling uncomfortable with this thread.


I'm quoting Jeri as a reminder to us all.

It is OK to talk about personal parenting experiences here though- that is one of the purposes of this forum.

It is not acceptable to attack other posters here- if you have a disagreement with someone you need to take it to them privately as per posting guidelines.

4. Any personal disagreements including discussions about actions taken by board admins and mods should not be done on the boards. If you need to discuss it, then please directly contact the person who you disagree with. Do not bring other people into it. This follows the Biblical outline for how to deal with conflict. (MT 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you.")

This is a board that promotes and encourages non-punitive parenting styles. This is very different than the form of parenting endorsed by the articles at RGT. No method is perfect, and no parents are perfect, and no children are perfect. But this is the parenting style that we are committed to here at GCM.

[Wholly Mama]

Kristi,

I'm sorry that you have not been around enough to truly understand the intent of this message board, nor the women here. If you spent some time around here, you'd see that the journey to "well behaved and respectful" people IS very important to us. It *does* matter to us how our children get there. We don't just care about the outward appearances. And if you got to know the women around here a bit more, you'd understand that many of us here *were* those children who were well behaved and respectful due to the spankings and chastising we received, and are just now realizing why we feel so much rage inside ourselves, why we have obsessive tendancies, why we cannot stand up for ourselves, why we have a hard time understanding that God's grace is enough to forgive even me.

Because we've experienced personally the results of punitive parenting, some of us have very strong opinions of the damage it can cause in children. We love all mothers whose intent is to do the right thing. We extend grace to all. We love everyone, as God loves us. But we cannot accept the *acts* that we disagree with. There is a difference. I understand that sometimes it's hard to see the difference. Sometimes, due to our strong feelings, lines get blurred and crossed, and that's why we have Jeri and Crystal reminding us to keep things in perspective and remain gentle. You only have to read the sticky in this forum to see that it's very important to us on this board to post with empathy toward those following parenting methods that we don't agree with.

Love to you. I would love for you to stick around and get to know us a bit better. Grace and peace be with you, wherever your journey leads. :heart

[Wonder Woman]

The way I look at it, the proof is in our children. If our children are happy, healthy and TRULY WELL BEHAVED AND RESPECTFUL, then who are we to judge how they got that way? If children were truly being mistreated or abused or whatever else has been implied in this thread, they would be miserable and acting out in various ways. From what I know of the ladies over at RGT, their kids speak for themselves.

you know what? I really, truly hate that you've allowed yourself to be deceived this way. It's quite sad.

If a child is being kept close for the sake of being hit - whether you or anyone else calls it a training swat or a correction or discipline - it's abuse.

Repeatedly striking a child is abusive. Whether you believe it or not.

I'll pray for you.

[caranamomma]

but attacking other posters is not permitted on this board.

Please show me where I have personally attacked anyone and I will apologize. I did call out a certain poster on what I found to be very offensive behavior, but I am not seeing where I personally attacked anyone.

Wholly Mama- thank you for your kind words. I would love to stick around and get to know the posters here better (now that I'm sure everyone hates me, lol). Maybe I have the wrong idea. I do admit I was going mainly on what was said on this thread, which was rather shocking to me but I'm always willing to take another look.

Like many of you, I am just looking to be the best parent I can be. I have checked out this board, and I have checked out RGT. I'm still not sure what is best but I really want to find out as I truly want to do what is best for my children.

Jadensmom- I don't need those kinds of prayers. Thanks though. :poke

[Wonder Woman]

Jadensmom- I don't need those kinds of prayers. Thanks though. :poke




I don't think God gives refunds on pre-uttered prayers ;) :hug

[Mother of Sons]

I don't think anyone hates you and I sure do hope you stay. Keep reading and posting! Get to know us and let us get to know you. :hug

[ArmsOfLove]

I know I don't judge the women over there, but I do believe we have every right, even an obligation, to judge the methods by which people get well behaved children.

And this isn't behind anyone's back--it's a public forum.

[Can Dance]

the whole purpose of this board is to discuss the *inner* workings of our children. not what you see on the outside. its helping children to ultimately control *themselves*, not avoid a behaviour because they might get hit for it or punished or whatever. sure children can *look* fantastic, and have thier stomach in knots because of anxiety over the need to be perfect looking and please their parents.
I do agree. People can be highly resilient, and one can chose to be a victim and blame their parents for their behaviour later in life or they can chose to work through the childhood they experienced and move on. what I hope for my children is that they have as little to get over as possible. there are many women on this board who are the later and do the painful work of processing their childhood and are now wonderful completely different parents then they way they were parented.
and I do try and assign positive intent to these ladies who punitively parent. but I will never find hitting a child acceptable. ever.

[caranamomma]

So you mean we can re-hash our own childhoods here and figure out what went wrong and what to do differently? Woohoo, I'm definately staying, that is one of my most favorite topics. :mrgreen I'm constantly trying to figure out what on earth went wrong in my own childhood and what I can do differently with my own kids. It's so hard to know.

[mamaKristin]

I hope you do stick around. :yes I think I am a better mother as a result of the things I have learned here.

Just wanted to address this quote:
I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway,
I really don't see this board as being 'child centered' at all. :shrug Yes, we seek to discover what is going on with our children and meet their needs, as well as address discipline issues. As Jesus valued children, so should I as their mother strive to value their worth - as children of mine, and children of the King. Not make them fit into a mold that makes me as their mom look good because they behave well. I'm so glad that God treats us that way as well, valuing us as we are and encouraging us to be better people, looking at our hearts, beyond just being ''good on the outside'. :heart

[ArmsOfLove]

Yeah--and child-centered does not describe the parenting we promote here :shrug

[Wholly Mama]

So you mean we can re-hash our own childhoods here and figure out what went wrong and what to do differently? Woohoo, I'm definately staying, that is one of my most favorite topics. :mrgreen I'm constantly trying to figure out what on earth went wrong in my own childhood and what I can do differently with my own kids. It's so hard to know.


:yes

So many things make sense when you start to disect childhood. I think we all wish to take the good and change the bad from our childhoods. Stick around, I think you'll discover a lot! :hug

[Aisling]

the whole purpose of this board is to discuss the *inner* workings of our children. not what you see on the outside. its helping children to ultimately control *themselves*, not avoid a behaviour because they might get hit for it or punished or whatever. sure children can *look* fantastic, and have thier stomach in knots because of anxiety over the need to be perfect looking and please their parents.
I do agree. People can be highly resilient, and one can chose to be a victim and blame their parents for their behaviour later in life or they can chose to work through the childhood they experienced and move on. what I hope for my children is that they have as little to get over as possible. there are many women on this board who are the later and do the painful work of processing their childhood and are now wonderful completely different parents then they way they were parented.
and I do try and assign positive intent to these ladies who punitively parent. but I will never find hitting a child acceptable. ever.

As a child who was raised punitively looking "respectful and well-behaved" on the outside while having DEEP hurts and issues on the inside, I wanted to add my ditto. Behavior is only a fraction of the whole child.

caranamomma-I hope you do stick around. I'd love to dialouge about your childhood :hug

[caranamomma]

Yes, I would like to learn more. So often I feel like I have no clue what I'm doing, lol.

As far as my childhood, where to even begin?! :lol

[CelticJourney]

As far as my childhood, where to even begin?!

Maybe start with 'what do I believe about parenting and WHY do I believe it"

[joyful mama]

But we can all respect the fact that some people DO see things differently, and it's ok...

How on earth can you say you respect the fact that people see things differently while saying such awful things about the women over at RGT? And the fact that you, who apparently was once the owner of that site's friend (close enough to talk to on the phone for several hours) and then go on to share such personal details about her and totally bash her way of parenting behind her back? You should be ashamed of yourself. :no2

I was a member here awhile ago and just got an e-mail notification that my membership was going to be cancelled because I haven't posted in awhile. I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway, but I wanted to come back and give it another try before I lost my membership due to not signing in often enough. This thread seriously makes me sick and I don't think I'll be coming back. To act like you all are so gentle and accepting while accusing God-fearing women who are doing the best they can to raise their children of such horrible things behind their backs. The proof is in the pudding and I would strongly encourage some of you who claim to be so "accepting" to get off your high horse and not be so quick to judge another's parenting, especially when they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Talk about hypocritical. :td


Wow. I don't even know how to address this. I don't usually respond to these threads, becasue my dearest friend- my sister- practices this type of parenting. She knows how I feel about it, we've discussed it, and left it at that. I guess I just don't *get* the *need* for punishment. I just don't :shrug. I'm not saying she isn't a loving mama- she is truely very loving, and many of us have said that about those who practice punitive parenting :shrug. My nieces and nephews who have been punitively raised are very attatched to their mama :heart. But that doesn't mean I agree with spanking/time outs/standing in the corner :shrug

I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway, Well, I've been here 1 1/2 years and honestly haven't seen this. Many of us have very young children and honestly feel, as 'attached' parents that our kids *need* us. Therefore, we do things such as babywearing, cosleeping, extended nursing, lots of time with mama, etc. because thats what our children *need*. I personally feel this is a very biblical way of parenting. I highly doubt Mary would let her precious Son cry in another room, or spank him... :shrug. I *do* center my life around my children, but its a sacrifice done out of love because they need me, not because I just do it because they are more important than me. I just feel that this season of my life is one of sacrafice for my children... if my baby is teething and needs to nurse throughout the night... than thats a sacrafice I'll make for her. If my older child needs me to read to her, because she needs some mommy time, I may put the laundary down and do that. But its a sacrafice, not a burden. I believe a life of sacrafice IS biblical :shrug

I'm really sorry you're feeling so strongly about this. I do hope you stick around and give us a chance. Honestly , we're not a bunch of Unchristian hypocrites :sad2

[canadiyank]

:hug Kristi, I'm glad you're sticking around a bit. We'll be the first to admit that we are not perfect. :yes *I'll* be the first to admit I'm not perfect! :giggle I'm a mod in the GD forum and I still struggle with feeling/being punitive at times (ok, daily :O ).

I remember when I first came across GBD - I thought, neat concept, but it's impossible to raise kids w/o punishment. Now 5 years later (!) I am more than convinced and while I don't have grown children I daily see the fruit of this method. :amen

We've talked about outward behaviour being not the only thing we care about - and that's absolutely true. But I've found if we address the "inner" of the child then the "good" behaviour follows. One of our mantras around here is a child who feels bad (for whatever reason - shamed, health matters, etc.) acts bad, so we try to get to the root of that feeling bad reason.

I do want to assure you that we expect compliance from our children - we make it happen, just in a different way. Discipline is teaching and we stress teaching *how* to act and then enforce that.

You might find this article, "Spanking isn't the issue or the focus" helpful: http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=49848.0

Also, a big :welcome

[caranamomma]

Thank you for the welcome! I can tell you all are great women after the way you've reacted to my start here. :phew It would've been a lot easier to just say "get out of here, we don't need your criticism" so thank you. :)

I do agree that it is so important to figure out what's going on inwardly with our children. I look forward to learning more about this approach and I'll probably post an intro somewhere to kindof give you a feeling of where we're coming from.

[ArmsOfLove]

:hug I'm glad you're going to stick around :) definately post an intro and let's get to know each other

[caranamomma]

OK, I posted my intro in introductions. :-)

[joyful mama]

off to read :hug

[Titus2Momof4]

But we can all respect the fact that some people DO see things differently, and it's ok...

How on earth can you say you respect the fact that people see things differently while saying such awful things about the women over at RGT? And the fact that you, who apparently was once the owner of that site's friend (close enough to talk to on the phone for several hours) and then go on to share such personal details about her and totally bash her way of parenting behind her back? You should be ashamed of yourself. :no2

I was a member here awhile ago and just got an e-mail notification that my membership was going to be cancelled because I haven't posted in awhile. I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway, but I wanted to come back and give it another try before I lost my membership due to not signing in often enough. This thread seriously makes me sick and I don't think I'll be coming back. To act like you all are so gentle and accepting while accusing God-fearing women who are doing the best they can to raise their children of such horrible things behind their backs. The proof is in the pudding and I would strongly encourage some of you who claim to be so "accepting" to get off your high horse and not be so quick to judge another's parenting, especially when they are brothers and sisters in Christ. Talk about hypocritical. :td


You know something? I have been way too sick with the flu and have had a whole lot of other things going on in my life this week (as has been posted on other forums) to keep up with the drama that's been going on in this thread. However, from what I have been informed by someone, I now find the *date* that you post your reply to me to be very....interesting, and not at all a coincidence.

Anyway. To address what you have, yes attacked, me with: Elizabeth (site owner) from what I have gathered doesn't need to be "close" to someone to talk to the on the phone. Friendly, yes, of course, but it isn't like we are/were best friends. Second, I did not reveal any "details" of our conversations, other than to say that I got the impression that she was not as harsh as she comes across on the board. HOW on earth is that "bashing" her???? Also- if I wanted to "bash" (not that I even bashed her) her "behind her back", I certainly wouldn't do it on this, PUBLIC, forum. I would go to a private forum. Finally, as others have ssaid, we have every right to judge parenting practices. In fact, we are told in the Bible to do just that--to always be discerning, and judge for ourselves. I see nothing wrong with that. Not a single post in this thread has judged any *person* on that board- the only person mentioned was the owner, and the mentionings of her have been in her defense no less! And this is supposedly bashing her behind her back. No, speaking positively to someone's character and that they are a loving mother on a public mesage board is hardly bashing them behind their back.

I also think that the response to your post that you have gotten here speaks volumes of the members here :heart I can guarantee you that if anyone had gone to RGT posting in the way that you posted here, they wouldn't be around to have read the replies to their posts-they would have been banned immediately, and w/o warning, much less trying to understand where they are coming from. I'm so happy that the ladies treated you so positively, even though they pointed out that your post was attacking.

[Titus2Momof4]

I don't agree with a lot of the extreme child-centered slant of parenting that is promoted here and do NOT think it's Biblical in any way, not to this extreme extent anyway,I really don't see this board as being 'child centered' at all. Yes, we seek to discover what is going on with our children and meet their needs, as well as address discipline issues. As Jesus valued children, so should I as their mother strive to value their worth - as children of mine, and children of the King. Not make them fit into a mold that makes me as their mom look good because they behave well. I'm so glad that God treats us that way as well, valuing us as we are and encouraging us to be better people, looking at our hearts, beyond just being ''good on the outside'.

I can actually see why, to people who are used to going to great lengths to *make sure* that the kids know that parents come first, parents wants come first, the parents marriage is more important.... to people who purposefully seek out power struggles (aka "training sessions"), to people who pick not a time when child is most pleasant, but the time when the child specifically doesn't want to do something, as the opportune time to train for something (this is all advice I have seen in Pearl materials and elsewhere).....To those people, I can see why AP-where we try our best to understand our kids, where we want to get to the bottom of the problem and not just focus on outward appearances, and where we go to great lengths to help our children get through bad phases, etc-I can see why this would seem child-centered. Although, I would more so describe it as "family-centered".... Not in a permissive way, but in a loving, attached way. :heart

[katiekind]

:heart :hugheart Titus2momof4 :hugheart Hopefully we're moving to reconciling this misunderstanding. I think we're moving towards being patient and learning to understand each other better. :grouphug I'm glad you clarified your points, Titus2momo4. :heart

Those are great points on child-centeredness, family-centeredness and the like. That's a bit of a soapbox for me. :O :soapbox

I know that Ezzo and others throw around "child-centered" as though it were understood to be a negative thing, to the point where those accused of being "child-centered" feel they need to renounce it.

But, I don't like handing over the word without examining the good in it! And there is a lot that is good, sane and normal in being child-centered. It is a reasonable response to a common -- and short, irreplaceable -- stage of life.

When you're a newlywed, you tend to be husband-centered--I know I was. :heart I made his favorite food, wore the gifts he gave me whether they were flattering or not, drove with him to the hardware store just to keep him company, sat on the beach for hours and watched him surf, called him at work, drew pictures of him, etc, etc, etc. This is considered a sweet and normal response to the joy of being newly married.

When you have a visitor in your home, you tend to be guest-centered. I know I am. A couple of the most exhausting but most interesting and enjoyable guests we've had have been a father and son from Japan who visited us overnight. They arrived jet-lagged. Their English was rusty. We became guest-centered in the endeavor to interpret them accurately so we could make them comfortable. Recently we hosted a fascinating man from Zimbabwe, similar situation.

When you have a dying father or mother, you're centered on taking care of them in their last months. You make extraordinary sacrifices, and you do it gladly. Gratefully. Prayerfully.

Being "centered" on an intense need for the time it takes to meet the need is a devout and honorable part of Christian living.

You would never think to critique a mission organization for being centered on the native population they're serving, rather than on the missionaries, for example. Well, when you have children to take care of, you have children to take care of. If that makes you child-centered, it seems to me to be something to accept. It is the way life is when your home is filled with children, especially young children. We have for our example, none other than Jesus himself, who took the nature of a servant, and did not consider equality with God to be something to be grasped, during that time. To be other than generously child-centered during the years when you're raising children seems to me to be missing a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity. You don't get another chance at it. What we need is encouragement to embrace this role, because it is very hard, very tiring!

And I have observed that people who claim they aren't child-centered often are as child-centered as those they seek to distinguish themselves from--and I find this praise-worthy. For example, Gary Ezzo makes an impassioned, child-centered appeal to convince parents to nurture their marriage. (It helps children feel secure, he says--and I agree.)

And it turns out that many of the good things we do each day, whether we think child-centeredness is a failing or whether it comes naturally to us, we do partly because we know that little eyes are watching us: watching us help our neighbors, watching us kneel down in prayer, watching us enjoy and acknowledge a gift from God. Doing things for the children's sake is a basic value we don't easily get away from, even as it is expressed differently in different "camps".

Just some thoughts. :think

[caranamomma]

Titus, I realize the tone of my OP was harsh but I still stand by the comments I made. I don't think anything I said was out of line, although I do agree I was very blunt about saying it. If you go back and read this thread, you will find many, many, many disparaging and EXTREMELY negative comments made by YOU specifically towards the women (in general) over at RGT and about the style of parenting they practice. You keep mentioning how you have the right to "judge" other people's parenting styles and how this is somehow Biblical. Please show me in the Bible where we have the right to judge anyone, especially doing it behind their backs?? :no2 Yes, this is a public board but did you e-mail Elizabeth personally and let her know you were talking about her and her board in this manner? You added in some positive comments about Elizabeth personally which in your mind, may have cushioned the extreme negativity in your posts, but the bottom line is that your posts reeked of judgment and condemnation, while patting yourself on the back for the parenting you practice. I could have not mentioned anything and gone on another board to talk about you in the manner that you talked about the women over at RGT, but I chose to confront you on what I found to be very offensive and insulting behavior. As much as my tone rubbed you wrong, wouldn't you prefer me coming to you personally about this on your "home turf" where you have all of your friends to stick up for you, rather than take this somewhere else and gossip about you and what I believe to be faulty parenting on your part? Do you see the difference?

In any case, I apologize for the bluntness of my original post as it obviously distracted from the point I was trying to make, which I still stand by.

[4blessings]

. As much as my tone rubbed you wrong, wouldn't you prefer me coming to you personally about this on your "home turf" where you have all of your friends to stick up for you, rather than take this somewhere else and gossip about you and what I believe to be faulty parenting on your part? Do you see the difference

Unfortunately, the Woodshed board is private so no one can go there and talk to them about their parenting. It can't be done "on their turf". :shrug

As for emailing E and letting her know this thread exists, that's not really necessary b/c I know people from that site regulary check other parenting boards to see what's being said and report back. I really don't see how anyone could say this is going on "behind their backs." Unlike the Woodshed, anyone can read this forum.

[caranamomma]

that's not really necessary

What about for morality/integrity reasons? Does that mean it's okay to gossip when a friend of the person you're gossiping about is standing right there because you know they'll go back and tell the person anyway?? :hunh How about just not gossiping? How about, even though we may know we're better than someone else, or we do things better than they do, not announcing the fact and making a spectacle of it?

[4blessings]

Well, it's not like someone started a "Hey! Let's gossip about the Woodshed women!" thread. The OP was asking for thoughts on it b/c she didn't know anything about it and people responded with what they knew. I could not, in good conscience, ignore a post like that. I didn't even follow the methods/advice recommended there, yet just reading the boards for an extended period of time had a profoundly negative impact on my relationships with my children. I don't know why. Maybe I'm just weak. All I know is that I started viewing my children through a different filter and it wasn't good.

I can't classify what was said as gossip. I can't read the intent of the posters' hearts, but I would venture to say that no one who posted in response to that question posted anything with the intent of gossiping or hurting anyone else , but sometimes the truth hurts, KWIM? To borrow from Jeri, I have big feelings about that site and what goes on there. :bheart

[Aisling]

caranamomma :hug- I went back and reread all the posts, and I think you may be confusing personal attack/judgemental attitudes with some very strong feelings that *do* exist on our board about not spanking. Our board is based on non-punitive parenting, most of us feel very strongly about it, and when someone asks our opinion about a forum that supports punitive discipline, there are going to be some negative responses. I honestly don't see how Titus2momof4 attacked the other board's owner :scratch If anything, I saw her saying nice things about her. :shrug No one started the thread saying, "Hey, there's this horrible lady on this board...." Someone asked for feedback, and feedback was given...with some strong feelings...and Titus2momof4 spoke some words about how the owner seemed nice on the phone, and more easy going than how she came across on the board. So...what's the conflict? :hug How would you have it resolved?

[Aisling]

that's not really necessary

What about for morality/integrity reasons? Does that mean it's okay to gossip when a friend of the person you're gossiping about is standing right there because you know they'll go back and tell the person anyway?? :hunh How about just not gossiping? How about, even though we may know we're better than someone else, or we do things better than they do, not announcing the fact and making a spectacle of it?


I believe, if you'll take the time to get to know the women here, the last thing you'll ever hear them say is, "I'm better than so-and-so". :heart There's a big difference between feeling very strongly about a negative practice being advocated and saying you're "better" than the person who adheres to the practice. SWIM?

[4blessings]

Titus2momof4 spoke some words about how the owner seemed nice on the phone,

I actually felt like she defended the owner a little. :shrug

[Aisling]

Titus2momof4 spoke some words about how the owner seemed nice on the phone,

I actually felt like she defended the owner a little. :shrug

yeah, that's the feeling i got, too. :neutral

[joyful mama]

Kristi, I know many of us feel strongly about that site, and its hard not to mask our dislike for the methods taught and embraced there. Many people here have come from strong spanking backrounds, and some were raised in abusive homes, or with spanking that effected them extrememly negatively, so many have very *very* big feelings about that site and those who embrace punitive parenting. I've reread this, and honestly I don't see the 'gossip' you wrote of. In fact, this is one of the nicest threads regarding RGT. I was quite honestly shocked at you calling us Unchristian hypocrites. *that* really hurt, though it wasn't specifically directed at me. From what I gathered from Tasha's posts were that she had spoken with the owner and was affirming she was a loving mother, but she disagreed with her mehtods. Why should she email someone to say that? :scratch


I believe, if you'll take the time to get to know the women here, the last thing you'll ever hear them say is, "I'm better than so-and-so". heart There's a big difference between feeling very strongly about a negative practice being advocated and saying you're "better" than the person who adheres to the practice. SWIM? exactly :hug

[caranamomma]

For the record, I never once said Tasha attacked Elizabeth. I keep getting accused of that, but I never once said that. If you were able to miss the extreme negativity and criticism of the women over at RGT in this thread, then I'm not sure we're reading the same thread. :shrug

Honestly, I know this style of parenting isn't touted as being "child centered" but this very issue is something that happens ALL THE TIME among child-centered parents, they go on and on about how evil spanking and punititve punishment is and are extremely critical and downright nasty about the parents who practice it, as if they are on their way straight to hell. That is one of the first things that turned me off to such a child-centered approach, I couldn't deal with the constant drama and defensiveness. One of the things I liked about the RGT board, is that they were very humble and quick to catch themselves if anything they said seemed or came across as negative towards anyone else. I was just disappointed to find the opposite of that here, that's all.

[Mother of Sons]

I don't think you have been here long enough to really say that. I'm sorry that is your perception. I think most of the responses to you here have been extremely welcoming and gracious.

this very issue is something that happens ALL THE TIME among child-centered parents, they go on and on about how evil spanking and punititve punishment is and are extremely critical and downright nasty about the parents who practice it, as if they are on their way straight to hell. That is one of the first things that turned me off to such a child-centered approach,

I can't speak to that because you aren't speaking about this site or GBD. GBD is not child centered :shrug

[canadiyank]

Kristi - I'm sorry this thread is causing hurt feelings all around. We care about you, about Tasha, and about our sisters at RGT. I think emotions are high right now and we need to all consider how our words will affect others, no matter how passionate we are about the matter at hand.

:grouphug

[katiekind]

Sometimes the cumulative effect of a thread has more impact than any individual person's contribution to it, but as you read, and particularly while the posters are still not real individuals to you, it can just feel like an avalanche of negativity has come down on you. :hugheart

Here is a post to read from our own wonderful Tulipmama that talks about the purpose of this particular forum. We do walk a tightrope in here, of being honest about our feelings while truly not wanting to tear down someone else.

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=2.0

Perhaps reading it will help you understand where our hearts are, at the same time as others of us read it to be reminded of the ideals we hope to reach--but often fall short of.

[Aisling]

None of the women here were being nasty about the parents at another board. I'm sorry if you've witnessed that before among "child-centered" parents, but we're talking about two different things here. They did speak up against a practice they feel is wrong. They *do* have very negative feelings about spanking.

What I'm reading is in this thread is, "I wouldn't go to that site if i were, you, because they promote spanking. Spanking is a damaging practice." not ", can you believe those horrid parents!! They're so awful!" (totally not how we feel, btw. Many of us came from punitive mindsets and have received SO much grace here.) Can you see and appreciate the difference? :hugheart


Kristi - I'm sorry this thread is causing hurt feelings all around. We care about you, about Tasha, and about our sisters at RGT. I think emotions are high right now and we need to all consider how our words will affect others, no matter how passionate we are about the matter at hand.

:grouphug

:yes

[caranamomma]

Yes, I agree that you all have been great and I have enjoyed getting to know you all a little better over the past couple of days. I fully admit I had the wrong perception of many of you from this one thread, as this is the only thread I've read here in over a year or so. That's my fault that I didn't take the time to read more before initially responding, I was responding only based on this thread. The only reason I am re-hashing this issue is because I just saw Tasha's response and wanted to respond to her. I am over it though and ready to move on. Like I said, I apologize for being so blunt in my initial response and I am very grateful for the warm welcome I received, despite the initial misunderstanding/miscommunication. That definately helped me see there is a different side to this board that I wasn't seeing in this thread. :yes :grouphug

[caranamomma]

Can we make-up and be friends?

:hissyfit :O :phew :highfive :grouphug :hug :kiss :turkey

:mrgreen :mrgreen

[canadiyank]

Can we make-up and be friends?

:hissyfit :O :phew :highfive :grouphug :hug :kiss :turkey

:mrgreen :mrgreen


Absolutely. :grouphug

[Aisling]

you betcha ;) :heart

[hsgbdmama]

they go on and on about how evil spanking and punititve punishment is and are extremely critical and downright nasty about the parents who practice it, as if they are on their way straight to hell.

Unfortunately, similar things have been said about those of us who practice GBD (just replace"spanking and punitive punishment" with "non-spanking" in your phrase above :/ ). :( So if we seem a little defensive, that's why -- it's nothing personal against you. :hug


Can we make-up and be friends?

:hissyfit :O :phew :highfive :grouphug :hug :kiss :turkey

:mrgreen :mrgreen


:yes !!!! :hug

[Mother of Sons]

Since everyone is made up :hug :tu and the thread seems to have run it's course I'm going to lock it. If anyone has any questions or wants to talk about it, please feel free to PM me or any other admin. Thanks!