Parenting class at church

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

Has anyone heard of the book "What the Bible says about Child Training" by Richard Fugate? There is a parenting class at our church and they will be teaching on this book. I don't exactly know the view of our church on child training... OH no..I Just looked it up on Amazon, and the reviews about it seem to be very negative. And here I thought our church would have a balanced view. I am so dissapointed. It is a Vineyard church and I have seen nothing yet that would lead me to believe that they are a punitive church...but this book sure seems to be. I hope it is just the family that is teaching the class that believes it...
Well, if anyone has read the book, let me know if there is any good in it. I wanted to go to the parenting class to get to know parents in our church, but it sounds like I won't be going...if this book is as bad as Amazon reviews make it to be...I would be seeing red the whole class. :sad2 :sad2 ~Kristie

[mom2threePKs]

I haven't read the book but have seen several discussions about it here and it is EXTREMELY punitive. It lines up with the likes of Pearl and To Train Up a Child. I would stay far far away from that class. It is so easy to be sucked into that mindset when you are around other people who subscribe to it.

:hug I'm sorry your church isn't what you thought it would be....

Magan

[Titus2Momof4]

:td

Admittedly, never read it, never even seen it in person.. but I've heard it's pretty punitive, as the PP said, not just punitive, but along the lines of Pearls...

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

Thank you Magan
This is what I've been finding out by reading Amazon reviews...but really wanted to opinion of someone on here. Any other opinion...is it really as bad as Pearl? I wrote a letter to our pastor (who is a very kind & gentle man). Does everyone think it is a good letter to send? The reason for references to Danny Silk & Bethel is that this church is very involved with the Bethel church in Redding, CA that Danny Silk goes to (some ppl on this group have been going to his conferences). I'm thinking our pastor perhaps knows nothing about this book...I hope so!! Maybe (hopefully) I can influence a change in books...That would be GREAT

Here is the letter. (very long because I included reviews from Amazon) pls tell me if some are not in good taste ...please suggest changes..or better wording for phrases

Dear Pastor Paul
We just received your notice in the mail inviting us to the training class for parents. Out of interest we looked up the book to be used on the Internet, “What the Bible says about Child Training” by Richard Fugate. We were shocked to see what it was about, it seems to be mainly about how to beat and spank your babies and children. This is very disappointing to us, because we really were interested in attending the parenting class, but are very saddened by the choice of book that it will be taught on.
We were very surprised, as by being around the Vineyard we did not believe that a harsh punitive child training method was used. We have found that your view of God and children is very positive, and grace-based, and were very encouraged by it. We were also very comfortable with the idea of bringing our children up in a church such as this, so we are sure you understand that we are very very concerned by the book to be used in this parenting class.
I’m sure you know Danny Silk from Bethel Church in Redding. He is the parenting/family counselor in Bethel and we feel he has a very balanced grace-based view of parenting. We know this book would go directly against what he teaches. Perhaps his series of tapes would more match the belief we feel that the Vineyard has.
We feel that this book is extremely dangerous information for young receptive parents to receive, instead they should be taught a grace based, loving way to relate to their children, and that God is a loving God, not one ready to beat us when we do wrong.
I (Kristie) used to believe the way this book teaches parenting, but going to school at Bethel really changed my whole view of God from a harsh, punitive, mean God to a loving, caring, full of grace God. This is turn changed my view of parenting from a harsh punitive view to a love & grace based view.
This is why we believe that the book about to be taught seems to be direct conflict with what your church teaches about God. I’m sure it has some positive aspects in it that we all would agree with, but we feel that the negative punitive aspect outweigh any positive it has. We would encourage you to review the book with these thoughts in mind and make your own evaluation of it.
Forgive us if we have overstepped our limits, we really respect you and what your church teaches. But we cannot accept this style of harsh punitive child training and are very concerned that the parenting class is encouraging it. We felt it was necessary to let you know why we would not be attending the parenting class, but please believe that we highly respect you and the other leaders of the Vineyard.
Sincerely Isaac & Kristie


Below are some of the reviews that people have written about this book on Amazon.



9 of 15 people found the following review helpful:
The Most Horrifying Parenting Book , March 8, 2006
Reviewer: Jennifer Weeks "Mom to 3 great kids" (Fredericksburg, VA USA) - See all my reviews
This book left me speechless. This book actually includes a chart to determine the size of the rod you should use to hit your child, based on the age of the child!!! It also says you should send them back to their room between beatings to consider their "crime" and then continue the beatings until the child shows true remorse. It is illegal to train your dog in this manner! The author refers to children as "sinful, dirty and selfish." The idea is that we must "break" them of their sinful behavior. This does not sound like the Jesus I know. The author has chosen to interpret the Bible in a way that will most likely turn children away from God, or turn them into future child abusers...neither good outcomes in my opinion.
What struck me as well was the ultimate goal of this book does not line up with what a parent would want for their child. Do you really want to raise a fearful, robot-like, obedient child who obeys out of fear of the rod? I want my children to learn to determine right from wrong in their own conscience, not choose their actions based on fear. I know my method takes longer and requires more patience, but I feel my children are worth it. I want them to know God's love, not think he demands that I hit them. Yes, the author recommends administering the beatings because that is what Jesus requires of good Christian parents. Please do not believe this and do not support this child abuse manual!

Follow the example of Jesus--not R. Fugate, May 23, 2005
Reviewer: Lisa Manske "natural mamma" (Wauwatosa, WI USA) - See all my reviews
Can you imagine Jesus whipping someone until they're broken? What did Jesus say to the woman at the well? To the adulterous woman that was about to be stoned? To the noisy children the disciples tried to shush away? He welcomed them all.

Too many people think parents have to be authoritarian or permissive, that there's no other way. There IS another way--it's to treat our children the way God treats us--with love, guidance, teaching, gentleness, and grace. We are to treat others the way we want to be treated. I wouldn't treat an animal the way Fugate says to treat children.

Some MUCH better books to read are Biblical Parenting by Crystal Lutton, The Discipline Book by Sears, and Grace Based Parenting by Tim Kimmel.


The Bible Does NOT Advocate Child Abuse, But This Book Does, June 10, 2006
Reviewer: Abby Hogarth "Mama, doula, family ministry worker, textile artist, toymaker" (Australia) - See all my reviews
Basically, if you want a manual on how to abuse and humiliate your children, create robotic , fear driven adults and use violent, unBiblical methods of punishment, then this is the book for you.

Jesus came to set us free from death and fear. As parents we need to be examples of grace, love and forgiveness. Our heavenly Father gave His only Son as a sacrifice for us so that no longer, did we, have to suffer punishment for our sins, but instead He offers us unconditional love and forgiveness. He does not punish or discipline us before He offers us love and forgiveness. Nor does God inflict pain and suffering on us before He forgives us. If we want to seek a truly Biblical view on parenting, lets look at how God 'parents' His children, us, the Body of Christ, it is through unconditional love, grace and forgiveness, not through violence, pain and fear.

Child Abuse 101, April 6, 2006
Reviewer: Erica (Florida) - See all my reviews
Whipping infants with sticks until they have welts and bruises? You have to be kidding me! This is sickening and I am amazed this book is in print much less people actually follow this advice.

THIS IS CHILD ABUSE!!
Whipping babies?
Using instruments to hit?
Leaving marks?

ALL CHILD ABUSE! If you do these things to your children they can be taken away.

The author knows this because he advises you to do these things in private so you are not caught.

The worst part...once again this is all in the name of Christianity and the Bible. Jesus was merciful not cruel. Please don't buy this book or implement these techniques on your children. There are more positive forms of discipline to use with your children. This is wrong!

What really amazes me is if the author substituted child for "woman" "African-American" "Jew" or even "dog" the entire country would be outraged! Since children are treated as second class citizens in this country and viewed as property, they are not protected from the same abuses women, African-Americans, Jews, or even dogs are. How sad!

Amazon- please quit selling this child abuse manual before more children are hurt.


7 of 15 people found the following review helpful:
STOP SELLING THIS BOOK, March 31, 2006
Reviewer: Sheila Parks "Ed.D." (USA) - See all my reviews
What the Bible Says About Child Training is good training for the Taliban. It is such a cruel and sick book that I don't understand why Amazon would be wanting to make money by selling such a child abuse book, written by a very sick man. That his parents did to him what he advocates doing to children in his book, is clear, alas. Now he is passing that on. The usual cycle. The book is a bible for making sure you scar your child in every way possible. It is unconscionable. I don't have words bad enough to describe what the book is. Taliban training does fit it best. I am a former college professor, who taught teachers. Sheila Parks, Ed.D.

This book is useless and barbaric, March 27, 2006
Reviewer: Alisa Terry - See all my reviews
The use of a rod on a baby, let alone any child, is not sound parenting, nor is it truly advocated by God. I wonder, in following the Old Testament, if the author advocates stoning someone for gathering sticks on the Sabbath, or declaring your children unclean if they eat pork? The use of the Bible to defend physical punishment on a child is deplorable, and any Christian should remember that Christ put an end to much that was practiced under the law of Moses. Consider instead books by Dr Sears, Dr Greene, or Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish.

The Bible does NOT say..., March 23, 2006
Reviewer: Concerned Dad "Adam" (United States) - See all my reviews
1) Beat 6 month old infants on their bare skin with a "balloon stick, willow or peach tree branch, blackboard pointer, or 1/8" dowel rod" (p.177).

2) It is unChristian for a chlid to "seek attention, food or drink" or to play (p.12).

3) "Government is not a higher institution than parents" (p.35).

4) "The parents' right to rule includes the power to force obedience to their will in all things" whether the parents are right or wrong (p.27, 41).

Amazon should stop selling this insane, abusive book.

Here we go again!, March 8, 2006
A Kid's Review
One of the favorite sports for folks of the Christian Right is hitting kids. It makes them feel important, powerful, authoritative, and in control. They take a secular position (physical punishment is good) and then thumb through the Bible for passages that seem to support their position. J. Richard Fugate is yet another practitioner of this kind of child abuse wrapped up in biblical launguage. Of course, one could choose the same method to posit biblical support for adultery, incest, polygamy, slavery, the rigid suppression of women, and infanticide. The truth is that Mr. Fugate's counsel has nothing to do with Jesus of Nazareth who would be lothe to hit children. [...]

[Chris3jam]

I had the book (until I lent it to a momma here). He is very punitive. He advocates spanking even into the teens. He even gives a chart for how big the 'rods' should be. And he says to actually use a 'rod'. . . .those dowel rods you get at a craft store or hardware store. And the chart says which diameter to use with which age. He's very harsh and unforgiving, even in some of the 'natural' consequence scenarios. In one, a child forgot their pillow for a trip. So, they had to go without the pillow on the trip. . .and they had to earn the money to buy another one, and then buy it themselves. I cannot remember, but they may have gotten a spanking, too. But, maybe not. That may have been one scenario where he let natural and logical consequences 'teach' the child.

The reviews were pretty much right on.

[Benjaminswife]

This is the worst book I ever read. It would really worry me if my church was doing a study on it. Much more than if they were doing a Pearl study. I couldn't believe that this was a Christian book when I read it. It was that awful.

[hsgbdmama]

You should get a copy of the book and take it to your local CPS/DFS office and get their input on the methods used, and then share them with your pastor. :/

[Hermana Linda]

I think the letter is great! :yes :clap Did you send it? I sure hope he stops the use of that book. Please keep us updated.

[mom2jolakeil]

I wish I could say that Vineyard churches tend to be more GBD, but IME they teach things like Ezzo and now this. I grew up in Vineyard (attending the one in Aneheim and then we went to a smaller one in Whittier/LaHabra and then Sacramento) and the one in Sac is where I was first exposed to Ezzo (Thank God Johannah and I already had an established relationship and it seemed silly to make her wait to eat when I knew what she needed :rolleyes). I think your letter is awesome. It's really sad that church that extends so much grace to adults doesn't feel the same way about their children :cry

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

Yes, I sent the letter... I hope it's received well :pray
This is really discouraging for me :(, it seems most of the professing christians/churches believe the most negative punitive child training methods ever, yet try to proclaim a gospel of grace and love. Previously I thought only stricter, more conservative groups, such as strict baptists, mennonites, and generally very conservative people believed in the harsh punitive methods, I came from a reformed strict baptist backround so thought it was only them and other conservatives that believed so negatively about child training and thought I was safe in a liberal pentacostal type of church. Now I find out they are teaching it too...I think it's embarrassing to be a christian...by how negative typical christians "child training" methods are. Sometimes I'd rather not tell anyone I profess to be a christian, because of all the extremely negative connatations it has. I am so "hoping" that our pastor changes this parenting course or I don't think I could go to church there... so probably couldn't go to church anywhere!! Wow, the devil has been deceptive in convincing all these "good" christian people of this heresy in training their children. It makes me so sad, and so upset!! I wish there was a big community of GBD moms and we could have a GBD church..but since I live in Northern MT, this isn't very likely :(

[TulipMama]

I have a copy of it. I remember thinking it "made sense" when I was punitive. I don't remember any specifics about it, though. Just that it is Bad News.

[Soliloquy]

You wrote a great letter--and one of the reviews you included was written by me! :giggle

Let us know what the response is.

[Carrie in PA]

The reviews and description of this book make me just :sick2 :bheart :sick2 :bheart :sick2 :bheart How awful!!!!! I am afraid my pastor might be into this book too (he is into Ezzo, Reb Bradley and Tripp).

:pray that your pastor is wise enough to reject this book and take your suggestions. Great letter! :tu

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

Ok...my pastor wrote me back...I found him very gracious, and I did agree with his thumbnail sketch of parenting..other than the reference to the rod. It's so hard because people like this think that it's only worldly "pop-psychology" as he put it, that don't agree with spanking...and it's so hard to convince them otherwise.
This line "The reality is that probably the majority of American Christians have never done a serious study of the Word, but rather read a book or took a class" regarding christian who don't believe in spanking makes me mad cuz it's so untrue!! Now I don't have a clue what to write back! Any good suggestions? I'm going to try reading the book at church this sunday... ;) during his loooong service, I'm a fast reader and that way I don't have to buy it cuz it's on sale there. ~Kristie

Here is the letter...

Thanks Kristie for your reply. I am reading the book right now. It has been around for a long time and the Taylors used it in the early days of their parenting. They have had great success, with all of their children walking with God and having a very close, loving family.

I will continue to read the book. So far in the first 100 pages I have not found anything that I disagree with. It definitely runs cross-grain with today's pop-psychology-culture. And I expect it will stir up some emotion in a few of our folks. If the book makes a turn in an overly harmful direction, I will pull it. I have not yet found a book that is "perfect" in all its views. I have heard some of Danny Silk's teachings. I think he has a lot of wisdom and good revelation. But I was a bit uncomfortable with some aspects. I try not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I read the reviews you sent. Thanks for sending those. I found that they were reactive and generally lacking in true wisdom. In fact, they were just what I would expect from Christians today. The reality is that probably the majority of American Christians have never done a serious study of the Word, but rather read a book or took a class. I appreciate that you and Isaac really are pursuing truth and I believe that you will be good parents. I also appreciate that you were so kind in your words about what you see in me and our church in terms of the grace that we seek to show people to bring them from where they are into their destiny.

Here is a thumbnail sketch of my (hopefully grace-filled) Biblical concept of parenting:

* We were created for love: parents have a responsibility to reflect and demonstrate the Father's unconditional love resulting in the security of their children. Anything that produces fear of rejection and failure is destructive.
* Each one has a destiny and calling from God: parents have the privilege of authority over their children to serve them in discovering who they are, what their destiny and gifts are and how to get there.
* Each one must learn to trust and obey God in order to come into their destiny: parents are the primary tools in God's hand to deliver children out of the natural, flesh tendencies of selfishness, willfulness and pride. "The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God" Romans 8:7,8. Parents are called to walk in God's pattern of disciplining those He loves (Heb 12, Prov 3) even though it cause pain, because in the end it produces the peacable fruit of righteousness. (I agree with Bethel that shaping behavior is not as important as shaping the attitude). But the failures of past generations to discipline in grace and unconditional love does not call for tossing out the use of "the rod of correction" (Prov 22:15, 29:15) and replacing it with appealing to the mind and reason of the child. Grace is not about accepting or tolerating us where we are but empowering us to move into our God-given potential. I do not find the use of punishment in God's dealings with His children, only discipline (pressure with a purpose). Punishment is for those who willfully reject God's authority and grace. But in reality, most Christian parents have disciplined out of their own fears, not in view of God's unconditional love or with a view of their child's destiny. And many have been so focused on "doing things right" rather than "doing right things", causing their children to operate in conditional love, performance-orientation and fear of failure, with shame.
* Each one must develop the character of Christ/fruits of the Spirit and discover the glory God created them for so they can fulfill their potential: Parents are called to address in their children the "acts of the sinful nature" that are contrary to the Spirit and that keep them from inheriting the Kingdom of God (Gal 5:16-25). They must teach them to value Christlikeness and the difficult pathway to character, surrendering to the Spirit's leading that leads to glory and true freedom.
* Each one must learn the ways of the Lord - truth and wisdom vs. deception and folly, "my people perish for lack of knowledge": Parents are to instruct in wisdom, since wisdom is the principle thing (Prov 4:7, 16:22), helping their children to see life from God's point of view, seeing the fruit of righteousness vs. the fruit of the flesh. Rules only instruct in "what should be done" but wisdom reveals the "why and how" of God's perfect ways. They must build in them the word of God, the Sword of the Spirit, to destroy the strongholds of the enemy and escape the snares of the father of lies.

This is the pattern that we used with our son John (we figured out a few things with our older children) and it has yielded abundant fruit in his life as well as for our relationship with him.

I don't think it will hurt for you to come to the class or read the book. You can always "chew the meat and spit out the bones." You will be free to ask questions and respectfully challenge anything you see as nonbiblical. I definitely will not support anything that promotes abuse or the "beating of babies." Better to read what the author really said than what others say he said. What Bret and Colleen teach will be the strongest element of the training. And I may add my "two cents" in there.

Again, I appreciate your conscientiousness and desire for truth. I hope that you will consider walking with us in really searching out the scriptures and benefitting from the wisdom and successes of those in our body. Good fruit speaks for itself. I look forward to watching what you do in loving and training your children for God's glory.

With affection,

Pastor Paul

[TulipMama]

In fact, they were just what I would expect from Christians today. The reality is that probably the majority of American Christians have never done a serious study of the Word, but rather read a book or took a class.

:banghead

[Quiteria]

In fact, they were just what I would expect from Christians today. The reality is that probably the majority of American Christians have never done a serious study of the Word, but rather read a book or took a class.

:banghead


I wonder if this would be a good springboard for printing out Crystal's analysis of the verses, including what I saw posted the other day about the hebrew letters that spell the main verse everyone quotes. I don't know what he'd say about it, but I think it qualifies as a "serious study of the word"!!!

I do understand his reluctance...I had the same concern when I first came here, and the fact that the Ezzo books had scripture is why I initially tuned out the possibility of reading anything else. :sad2 I kind of assumed that Sears, for example, could not possibly be a real Christian--never read his book until now to know tht he does address those scriptures and not just pop-psychology. Now take Gary Smalley, whom I gather does believe in creepy spanking from some of the posts around here...he's got more pop-psychology mixed in than Sears, Crystal, Kimmel, etc. :shrug

Edited to appologize for that last paragraph getting slightly OT. :O

[~yogamom~]

:hugheart Kristie, I totally hear you about not wanting to go to a church where the leadership are teaching this kind of, um, "stuff"! My dh and I think we have found a church home after looking for a while and it is a bit conservative, so I am worried about finding out what their parenting views are. If they are completely and unquestioningly (how's that for a word? ;)) pro-spanking al a Pearl and Ezzo, I just don't think I could continue to go. And that's sad becaise it seems like all of the churches we have gone to so far that have a genuine commitment to the scriptures also seem to be pro-spanking (and other icky stuff), whereas the more liberal churches we've attended have been very into grace-based parenting but also seemed to take liberties with scripture in a lot of areas....so, what does this mean? it just makes me feel hopeless about finding a church family or else that i must be wrong-- either all those rod people are right if they are otherwise seeing the bible how i see it, or else all those more liberal people are right and i should abandon my stricter vewi of scripture and join them...i just don;t know!

sorry for the hijack, baby crying, gotta go!

[Benjaminswife]

They have had great success, with all of their children walking with God and having a very close, loving family.
It always seems to be about the result, not how they get there :(

[kwisie]

In fact, they were just what I would expect from Christians today. The reality is that probably the majority of American Christians have never done a serious study of the Word, but rather read a book or took a class.

:banghead


Hmm, it seems to me that the ones who disagree with the general Christian idea of punitive parenting have had to do more study, not less. It's not easy to stand against traditionally-held views; certainly it's not something that can be done just from reading a book.

(Generalizations like this really bother me. :O)

[Chris3jam]

It always seems to be about the result, not how they get there

That reminds me of one of our pastor's favorite lines: "Everyone just *loves* the product, but hate the process. But, you can't have the product without the process. And the process isn't easy, and is downright hard at times. There are a lot of things you have to do that you may not want to." This usually prefaces his "spanking" sermon.

[Morning Glory]

Just a thought, do you feel skilled enough at offering a class in GCM? Is there a program that can be offered?--you could offer an alternative. I had asked the same question about Fugates book and was so happy I asked the same question you did. I spent some time at the bookstore looking it over and my advice to you is, stay away from the teachings.

Yuck!

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

No, I don't feel skilled enough about GCM, mainly because I might know it all in my head really well, (I've read lots of stuff) but haven't had much hands on experience yet. I don't have kids at home right now. I did write a letter to the pastor telling him all about GCM but I feel that they'll look at me like I don't know anything because I haven't had experience.
Last sunday I seen a book right next to Fugate's book on the book rack and read it. It was "Blessing your children" by Jack Hayford. I really liked it, but to me it's directly against Fugate's book, so I don't really know what our church believes. :scratch But I hope whoever reads Fugates book also reads Jack Hayfords...

[deena]

:jawdrop - at the letter your pastor wrote. Like the other women said, it was pretty insulting. And obviously you've got some problems if he has read most of the book and not seen anything he disagrees with. That would make me want to find a new church, but I'm not saying you should, I don't know all the particulars. But parenting support is SOOO important at church. It would be so sad and hard to go against the grain in the world AND in the body of Christ.

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

:jawdrop - at the letter your pastor wrote. Like the other women said, it was pretty insulting. And obviously you've got some problems if he has read most of the book and not seen anything he disagrees with. That would make me want to find a new church, but I'm not saying you should, I don't know all the particulars. But parenting support is SOOO important at church. It would be so sad and hard to go against the grain in the world AND in the body of Christ.

I know...
see this pastor grew up strict presbyterian, but the last 10 yrs or so he has been changing a LOT. Now his church is a very open, spirit-filled, free church. I think his parenting skills are just having to catch up a little to everything else he's learning and since he's past the "parenting years" I think he hasn't gave it much thought. I hope that I provoke him to think about it a little. I would leave the church if I knew this was the predominant teaching, but by judging by the families I see there is a lot of different veiws. I see earthy baby-wearing moms, big families, little families, etc. I don't think any of them are hard-fast fugate followers. At least I hope NOT. But they have no problem with babies in church and kids get to dance in the front during worship and what they teach the kids in sunday school seems to be pretty awesome and they don't look at kids as "second-class" at all. So that's why I was so surprised to see the book...

[TulipMama]

strict presbyterian, but the last 10 yrs or so he has been changing a LOT. Now his church is a very open, spirit-filled, free church.

Fugate would neither be in line with "strict presbyterian" or "open, spirit-filled" beliefs.


(And just feel the need to mention, it was becoming a "strict presbyterian" that led the way for me to be open to grace-centered parenting. . . *grin*)

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

(And just feel the need to mention, it was becoming a "strict presbyterian" that led the way for me to be open to grace-centered parenting. . . *grin*)

That's cool, I really don't know anything about strict presbyterian...just that he was one, and he's changed a lot.
I just presumed that any "strict" religion was more punitive, like I grew up strict baptist and they were very punitive. So that's awesome that it led the way for you to be open to grace-centered parenting. :tu