"What the Bible Says About Parenting" by John MacArthur - long & difficult quote

[Learninggentleness]

(Modification - 10/12 - I had to seriously shorten the original quote below because I didn't realize quotes on GCM are supposed to be around 100 words. :O So, if you read this before and see it's trimmed way down, you know the reason).

I got this book from the library the other day because several women in my church reccomended it to me (as well as SACH). John MacArthur is my pastor, but I obviously have major issues with his teachings about spanking. I'm meeting with two different moms this week at their homes and they both follow John's advice, and do so with conviction. Dh and I are still not sure if we're going to stay at this church because of the punitive mindset that abounds there and may be affecting our ds in Sunday school (and us, for that matter),
but in the meantime, what would any of you say in response to these quotes from his book, starting at page 84?

"The language of "beating" the child evokes images of child abuse for some. But Solomon is not sanctioning physical abuse or brutality...If your spanking leaves bruises or welts that are still visible the following day, you are striking the child too hard. Short, stinging strokes to the backside (where the natural padding is most plentiful), will not injure the child, but should be painful enough to make the consequences of disobediance sufficiently distasteful and unforgettable.

...I do not personally buy many modern clinical excuses for childhood rebellion. More and more parents of unruly children are being rold there their kids have afflictions such as Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD)...I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders." Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct.

:td :bheart

[RealLifeMama]

What strikes my fuzzy brain-

1) he neglects the fact that those verses are just proverbs.

2) He pulls a lot of extra-biblical stuff there- such as where to administer the spanking, etc.

[MarynMunchkins]

Any person without background in pediatric psychology/psychiatry that says "these disorders don't exist" is automatically labeled as an idiot by me. :mad I don't care if you're a pastor or Tom Cruise - it's arrogant and presumptous to assume that no children have any mental problems. Or worse - even if they do, they can be beaten out of them. :td

And Solomon's words aren't so "plain" when you study them in Hebrew, as they were written. The English translation seems obvious, but Solomon didn't speak English.

[Mamatoto]

By the way, I do not personally buy many modern clinical excuses for childhood rebellion. More and more parents of unruly children are being rold there their kids have afflictions such as Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD), and Bipolar Disorder (manic depression). I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders." Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct."


What on earth is he talking about? Does he not know that children are receiving brain scans to see these very things in the brain? Does he not know that there is often a family history of these disorders which point to biological causes?

:sick2

[Beauty4Ashes]

By the way, I do not personally buy many modern clinical excuses for childhood rebellion. More and more parents of unruly children are being rold there their kids have afflictions such as Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD), and Bipolar Disorder (manic depression). I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders." Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct."


What on earth is he talking about? Does he not know that children are receiving brain scans to see these very things in the brain? Does he not know that there is often a family history of these disorders which point to biological causes?

:sick2


Hmm, dh has had adults come to see him that from the time they were children were unable to sit still and focus. They were relieved as adults that there is something available for ADHD, that there really WAS something medically wrong with them, that they weren't just unruly kids. What does this guy think he is, giving out a medical lecture in addition to his other foolishness?

[Chris3jam]

How long do you want this post? To steal the idea from Crystal, here's a link to one of the famous "rod" verses. . . .

UM.. .have to come back to this post. . . . . ...I just saw the time. . .I should have left 5 minutes ago!!!

[RealLifeMama]

I think the "medical disorder" thing is not him saying that bipolar, etc, are not real problems, just that he doesn't think they are reason not to follow the same discipline practices.

NM, I read the last sentence more closely.

[canadiyank]

:banghead I think it's interesting he claims the word shebet is for stick and neglects that the word beat means continuous action (sun beating down). And the medical thing... :bheart "sinful conduct" :sick2

[Benjaminswife]

He has seemed to have forgotten what kind of person Jesus was in his message.

[hsgbdmama]

If your spanking leaves bruises or welts that are still visible the following day, you are striking the child too hard.

:jawdrop He goes way beyond Pearl here -- Pearl's guideline is 2 hours.

Where did he get his medical or psychiatry degree from? :eyebrow (Rhetorical question. :rolleyes )

[ArmsOfLove]

"There are frequent themes in the Book of Proverbs. "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him" (22:15). "Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell" (23:13-14).

Note carefully that those verses expressly make corporal pumishment-the rod-an essential part of parental discipline. That's not at all what is being said :shrug Even in the English you can read that it is foolishness that is bound (tied up), not the heart. If foolishness is bound up it is powerless in the life of a child. Without this verse the entire argument of foolishness in children is rendered powerless. This is good, though, considering "fool" in Hebrew is a word reserved for an adult who has been fully trained in Torah and rejects it wholly. Also, as for making corporal punishment an essential part of anything, that would mean that inherent in the word "shebet" is "corporal punishment" and it is most certainly not. You cannot jump back and forth between Hebrew and English to prove your point :shrug


When Solomon spoke of the rod, he emplyed a Hebrew term for a branch or a stick.ANH WRONG That is the Hebrew word "choter"; the "branch" that Shebet would mean is the branch of the tribes of Israel. And the stick must meet certain requirements.


Rods were used by shepherds as walking sticks, as instruments of defense, as standards of measurement, as toold to guide the sheep, adn as implements of reproof to control wayward lambs.reproof is verbal in the Hebrew and while used to physically guide the sheep, it's not used to hit or hurt them :shrug


Occasionally someone will note all those possible uses of the rod and suggest that when Solomon spoke of the rod, perhaps he was speaking only of giving positive guidance and shepherdlike nurturing care to children, rather than advocating the use of the rod as an instrument of corporal punishment. But that suggestion utterly ignores Solomon's plain words. In 23:13-14, for example, he speaks of beating the child witht he rod. Corporal punishment is unquestionably what he has in mind,"Beating" in the English versus in the Hebrew. Again, you can't go back and forth to prove your point. That is BAD exegesis :rolleyes2


and it is equally clear that Solomon regarded corporal punismnent as an indepensable aspect of wise parenting.how is this clear??? You can't just make a claim like that and not support it :shrug


In other words, using the rod as an instrument of punishment is not at odds with the idea of nurturing and shepharding our children - it is an essential aspect of it. Parents cannot omit this aspect and delude themselves into thinking they are being good shepherds to their children.Again, he has not adequately supported such a judgmental and broad sweeping statement :shrug

The language of "beating" the child evokes images of child abuse for some.Yes, as it should.

But Solomon is not sanctioning physical abuse or brutality. He is not giving parents encouragement to batter their children. The word tralslated "beat" both times it appears in Proverbs 23:13-14 simply means "to smite," with no necessary connotations about the lightness or the severity of the blow being administered.This is *exactly* the problem. There is NO boundary put on this beating and if you go with MacArthur's reading you have to smite your child. Unless you can show me in Scripture what the boundaries are (how to, how many, how often and FOR WHAT?) I refuse to take MacArthur's word for this.


The context makes clear, however, that the purpose of striking the child is to inflict pain, not injury. NOTHING prohibits injury :shrug

The pain inflicted is designed not to injure the child, but to make the consequence of disobediance unforgettable.This is opinion only and the same verses can be used to argue for anything because they do not contain a self-imposed limit.

If your spanking leaves bruises or welts that are still visible the following day, you are striking the child too hard. Short, stinging strokes to the backside (where the natural padding is most plentiful), will not injure the child, but should be painful enough to make the consequences of disobediance sufficiently distasteful and unforgettable. Again, this is OPINION only. If he is really being a literalist then the child should be struck on the back and not the bottom so :shrug

Proverbs 13:24 makes very clear that discipline is always to be administered with, and tempered by, love. Parents who administer chastening out of sheery fury or exasperation rather than love will find no support for that sort of discipline anywhere in Scripture. But neither does Scripture sanction a superficial love that is always lenient, indulgent, and permissive. You can't use this verse to combine hitting and love and think that this qualifies your position :shrug

The love that leads to proper discipline is a strong and robust love that demands obedience and punishes disobediance because that is what is best for the child. The parent should be grieved by the need to administer punishment and can therefore grieve along with the child over the consequences of sin. Physical punishment, when saturated with that kind of love, is a very strong corrective. Perhaps a strong corrective, but not supported by Scripture. Only the Cross can pay for the penalty of sin, not physical punishment. To not understand that is to not understand the Cross.

Chastening should also be firm and consistent. "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying" (19:18, KJV).Ummm In the Hebrew "chastening" is verbal and means "come let us reason together."

Don't be erratic with your discipline, and don't be so soft-hearted that you become overly lenient. Correction must be steady and unwavering, or it will not be effective. If parents are inconsistent, children will begin to regard the discipline as arbitrary and capricious.

"The rod and rebuke give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother" (29:15). A disobediant child makes not only a spiritual disaster byt an anti-social personality and, often, a criminal adult. Wow :jawdrop That is a leap of logic I'm surprised he was arrogant enough to take :hunh If you don't spank you raise a criminal. Hunh--that would be hard to prove. Especially considering nearly 100% of prisoners serving time in America's jails were spanked (I think it's only 80% that experienced some sort of abuse)

By the way, I do not personally buy many modern clinical excuses for childhood rebellion. More and more parents of unruly children are being rold there their kids have afflictions such as Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD), and Bipolar Disorder (manic depression). I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders." Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct."
Wow--that is really arrogant. Unless he wants to show me some credentials for this opinion I'm going to consider it as valid or invalid as any lay person off the street commenting on these disorders :( And, ftr, I do believe that discipline plays a very important role in addressing these issues.

[SouthPaw]

Same old song and dance.

I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders."

Obviously he has missed out on current scientific research for the past oh, 2 decades or so. :rolleyes Or maybe it's just that he doesn't know what a neurotransmitter is?

[glassangel]

Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct."[/color]

:jawdrop :hunh

*sigh*

[Chris3jam]

Ok. I'm back. And, ftr, what you quoted in your op I've heard almost *verbatim* from the pulpit in the church I attend. They must have gotten together. . . I wonder who the original "author" of those statements is. :think

To (again and sorry Crystal) steal from an old post of Crystal's:
Proverbs has a verse that reads: Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

That is the reading in the English translation. In the ancient Hebrew it reads, literally: “You are to reveal the activity of life that is allowed, surrounding what destroys the household, and take authority over the activities of desire by consuming the activity of life with communication, and not allow desire to set the path.”

nakah shebet natsal nephesh sh@'owl

You read Hebrew from right to left so the last symbol is actually the first and you go up the list.

nakah is made up of the Hebrew symbols:
noon: activity, life
kaf: to cover, to open, allow
hey: 'the', to reveal

So --- To reveal the allowed activity

shebet is made up of these Hebrew symbols:
sheen: to consume, to destroy
bet: household, in, into, family
tet: to surround

So ----- surround the household from what destroys

natsal (Hebrew symbols):
noon: activity, life
tsadik: catch, desire, need
lamed: control, authority, tongue

So ----- speak authority over the desires of activity

nephesh =
noon: activity, life
pey: to speak, avoid, to open
sheen: to consume, to destroy

So ---- to consume with communication the activity of life

sh@'owl =
sheen: to consume, to destroy
alef: strong, leader, first
reysh: a person, the head, the highest
lamed: control, authority, the tongue

So -------- what controls the person and leads to destruction

Now, putting it all together:

”Reveal the allowed activity and surround the household from what destroys speaking authority over the desires of activity and consuming with communication the activity of life to avoid what controls the person and leads to destruction.”

My point being, if he wants to quote from Proverbs, he should really get his ducks in a row and study the original language. All the "rod" verses are very similar in this regard.

By the way, I do not personally buy many modern clinical excuses for childhood rebellion. More and more parents of unruly children are being rold there their kids have afflictions such as Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), Attention Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), Antisocial Personality Disorder (APD), Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD), Histrionic Personality Disorder (HPD), and Bipolar Disorder (manic depression). I know of no known organic or biological cause for any of those "disorders." Most such diagnoses seem to me to be little more than high-sounding clinical terms that have been applied to lazy, selfish, defiant, or otherwise sinful conduct."

He is not qualified to make this statement. He is neither a medical doctor nor a scientist. He is, in effect, qualifying and quantifying the effect the Fall had on man. Who is to say that these disorders are not connected to the physical degeneration of people (which it seems to be, btw)?

What he is doing is parroting cultural "norm" in "Biblical" language. It's transparent.

It is logical to assume that Solomon got his wise sayings from what we know now as the OT. And in Deut. 2, there are clear messages to parents in what to do, as far as teaching children the word of God. When taken in context of all of God's Word, and looking at the original language, one can see the clear connections between Proverbs and the OT; and they have everything to do with teaching God's word to the next generation and teaching about God's authority and following His precepts. There is nothing about beating those precepts into a child. I would like to just once see someone defend spanking using something other than the rod verses. You can't.

[Learninggentleness]

If your spanking leaves bruises or welts that are still visible the following day, you are striking the child too hard.

:jawdrop He goes way beyond Pearl here -- Pearl's guideline is 2 hours.


I was shocked when I read that too. :mad

Thank you *everyone* for your input! I "second" everything you said. If you have anything more to say, please do so, but just know that I very much appreciate the time you took to comment on this long quote. :grouphug

I'm going to have to read this thread to dh because he said that some of those Proverbs *seem* to clearly support corporal punishment, but it's just not as "clear" as John MacArthur has made it out to be! :banghead

[Rbonmom]

Wow, I'm really disappointed because I have really enjoyed some of John MacArthurs teachings in the past, I had no idea he was so ignorant of how to study the word :cry

[Heather Micaela]

Any person without background in pediatric psychology/psychiatry that says "these disorders don't exist" is automatically labeled as an idiot by me. I don't care if you're a pastor or Tom Cruise - it's arrogant and presumptous to assume that no children have any mental problems. Or worse - even if they do, they can be beaten out of them.
From someone who has used permissive, punitive, and finally GBD a)ll with little result) on dd I *know* somthing else is going on. Not sure what yet -but her agression is NOT the result of bad discipline. And FWIW - GBD has been then best for her yet :tu

[UltraMother]

Just because he has good teachings in some areas does not mean that he has good teachings in ALL areas. :no2

[mwwr]

Just because he has good teachings in some areas does not mean that he has good teachings in ALL areas. :no2


But now that I have seen how he twists scripture to support his own parenting views, I don't think I would trust him to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" elsewhere.

And the arrogance of the statement that all of psychiatry is just a heap of junk...it makes me too :banghead to even respond.

[Rbonmom]

ITA, how can you trust his interpretation of any scripture when this interpretation shows such poor exegesis? Especially because he takes such a strong stance on it. He says you can't properly raise children without spanking, thats a hop skip and a jump away from saying "the Bible commands it", which is such an obvious error.

[Benjaminswife]

Doesn't his college not offer a degree in psychology? I know a lot of people that attended his college and I seem to remember hearing that.

[Learninggentleness]

Doesn't his college not offer a degree in psychology? I know a lot of people that attended his college and I seem to remember hearing that.


Are you talking about the Master's College? As far as I know they do not offer a degree in psychology because the staff and faculty at Grace Community Church, the Seminary, and the College view psychology with disdain. They have written books about why they view psychology as unbiblical and worldly.

I definitely do not agree with their views on this. :no2

[Benjaminswife]

Doesn't his college not offer a degree in psychology? I know a lot of people that attended his college and I seem to remember hearing that.


Are you talking about the Master's College? As far as I know they do not offer a degree in psychology because the staff and faculty at Grace Community Church, the Seminary, and the College view psychology with disdain. They have written books about why they view psychology as unbiblical and worldly.

I definitely do not agree with their views on this. :no2


Yes that is the one. I have a good friend who went there 1 year and I think that was part of why she transferred. Where does that belief come from?

[cklewis]

Where does that belief come from?


Sometimes it's attributed to Jay adams and nanc.org

macarthur lives in the 1950s. :rolleyes

c

[Hannah Jo]

So --- To reveal the allowed activity

shebet is made up of these Hebrew symbols:
sheen: to consume, to destroy
bet: household, in, into, family
tet: to surround

I would just like to say that I feel awfully accomplished because looking at this I recognized that "bet" meant family/household thanks to the Hebrew alphabet study Crystal has been posting in the Bible study forum :)

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=78682.msg728205#new

Now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

[haak]

I actually was under the ministry of one of John's Mcarthur's relatives for several years. That is where I learned that God is basically watching- waiting for me to sin- and then punish me. I learned you "get what you deserve"- example- If you lose your virgnity before marriage you don't deserve to marry a virgin. If you make out before marriage you deserve someone who has also made out with others....It took me a long time and a new church to learn about the God of love and grace- the Loving Father we serve. So needless to say I am reluctant to read any of his teachings and am not surprised by this. In fact I ran into the pastor a few years ago when my first DD was 18 months and he asked me if we'd started spanking yet and told me how that they couldn't even count the number of times they had to spank before 18 months of age! I played dumb and said, "oh no- we parent with grace- have you heard of Arms of Love Family Fellowship?" He said, "Yes" and gave me a look like I had just renounced Christ Himself but that was the end- although then my dd started to run down the side walk and I said, "Stop please" and she did!! Another woman frim his church - undre his teaching-came up and said, "Wow my kids never actually do what I say" It was great because the pastor saw the whole thing. Anyway... I am rambling here-

[kwisie]

ITA, how can you trust his interpretation of any scripture when this interpretation shows such poor exegesis? Especially because he takes such a strong stance on it. He says you can't properly raise children without spanking, thats a hop skip and a jump away from saying "the Bible commands it", which is such an obvious error.




I heard him on the radio last week while I was on a long driving trip, and he had similar harsh things to say about the passage he was speaking on that day. He took the passage where Jesus said don't worry about what you'll eat, wear, etc., because God will take care of you to tell people they're all sinning if they worry. I see it that Jesus was encouraging people that God is there for them. It was hard to listen to.

[hsgbdmama]

In fact I ran into the pastor a few years ago when my first DD was 18 months and he asked me if we'd started spanking yet and told me how that they couldn't even count the number of times they had to spank before 18 months of age!

:hunh

What an odd way to converse. Why not ask how many words she's saying or about her interests or how you enjoy being a mom.

What is the obsession with spanking?!?

[RubySlippers]

[color=red]The word tralslated "beat" both times it appears in Proverbs 23:13-14 simply means "to smite," with no necessary connotations about the lightness or the severity of the blow being administered. The context makes clear, however, that the purpose of striking the child is to inflict pain, not injury. The pain inflicted is designed not to injure the child, but to make the consequence of disobediance unforgettable.

:hunh I'm no expert, but I think the "smite" verses are really harsh (killing, public beating as judgment). The thing that gets me is that he seems to be splitting hairs about pain and injury. AFAIK, pain is an indicator of injury, it's a signal that something is wrong! If you suffer pain inflicted by someone else, you have been injured. Not all injuries leave lasting visible signs (you stub your toe, writhe in pain on the floor, but recover with no bruises), but it's still injury. A parent willfully inflicting pain on a child is inflicting injury. When I spanked my children, I injured them :cry, though I left no signs. He is not only advocating injury, but seems to be advocating mental and emotional injury when he talks about the pain being "unforgettable."

Here's the definition from dictionary.com
pain  /peɪn/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[peyn] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. physical suffering or distress, as due to injury, illness, etc.
2. a distressing sensation in a particular part of the body: a back pain.
3. mental or emotional suffering or torment: I am sorry my news causes you such pain.

[Titus2Momof4]

I'm sure other ladies will have more indepth answers, but just a few things that pop into my mind, from a biblical perspective:

Further down in your quote he says "beat means 'to smite'...he doesn't literally mean child abuse". And then he talks about what "rod" literally means further up in the quote. So, if beat=smite, and rod=walking stick, then using that logic, you should 'smite' or strike your kid with a rod/walking stick...probably something like a broom stick. This is why the literal translation thing doesn't fly with me. Not to mention the word we have in english for "rod", that you'll find in the bible, actually had several words in the original text, it's just that in our language we only have "rod".

"There are frequent themes in the Book of Proverbs. "Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child; the rod of correction will drive it far from him" (22:15). "Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell" (23:13-14).

So get out your broomstick. This says rod..which means parents cannot use their hands, a wooden spoon, a paint stirrer, a glue stick, a belt, a paddle, or *anything* other than a "rod"....right? <tic>

Note carefully that those verses expressly make corporal pumishment-the rod-an essential part of parental discipline.

Right, about a 6ft walking stick, right?

What about 1Cor 4:1: "Shall I come to you with the rod, or in love with a gentle spirit?" (emphasis mine) Clearly the rod is the *opposite* of "a gentle spirit"......

[Learninggentleness]

Where does that belief come from?

Sometimes it's attributed to Jay adams and nanc.org


Yes, I received what they call "biblical counseling" about two years ago and the counselor referred to Jay Adams a lot and had me read his books. (I had been dealing with depression). The women's ministries also did a study on "Attitudes of a Transformed Heart" by Martha Peace, which includes several chapters pretty much bashing psychology as a whole. :rolleyes2

But, aside from that, there is a scripture they use to back up this point (wrongly, imo) - the verse about how God gave us all we need for life and godliness (I'll have to look it up). The main book John has written about this is called, Our Sufficiency in Christ.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I went to a woman's house this morning (from my church) and it was pretty much a getting to know each other time. There was one point when her 3 year old son had a runny nose and she told him to get a kleenex to blow his nose. He didn't and she said, "What does (insert reference) say?" The little boy said, "CHildren obey your parents..." He still had trouble obeying so she said "I gave you a simple task to do. You know what's going to happen if you don't obey." He immediately started quickly over to the kleenex, shouting "I'll obey mommy! I'll obey mommy!" :mad :bheart She was uncomfortable and sort of chuckled, nervously. I didn't say anything about it (even though I felt for that litlte boy) - we moved on in the conversation - but I wonder if I should have.

My mom said that if she were in my shoes she would be bringing my concerns/questions/issues with people in the church, including these moms. She encouraged me to be strong, courageous, and bring up my beliefs and concerns about corporal punishment and also tell them about GBD. I don't want to be too intrusive though. :shifty What is the right response to situations like this, coming from where I'm coming from (GBD, and all). :shrug

[Hermana Linda]

ITA, how can you trust his interpretation of any scripture when this interpretation shows such poor exegesis? Especially because he takes such a strong stance on it. He says you can't properly raise children without spanking, thats a hop skip and a jump away from saying "the Bible commands it", which is such an obvious error.

Here is another example of his exegesis. We have visited his church 2 times. I don't really like such large churches, but dh wanted to go. I told dh about his stance on spanking, but he still wanted to visit because we have a friend who is happy with their respectful worship and he wanted to experience it again. Ok, so the day we went John MacArther goes up for the announcement time and announces that instead announcements he wants to explain something for the first time to his congregation because he has noticed a confusion. He then goes on to explain that Christians should not be supportive of Israel because they have been cursed by God for their rejection of The Messiah. :hunh We just could not believe it. Dh had to ask me if he understood correctly as English is not his first language. So, we decided that was definately not the church for us. :no2

[cklewis]

What? Wow, Linda. :sad2 Wow. I am surprised that he's so . . . extreme.

But I was thinking, it all kinda makes sense though, yk? I mean, Ezzo's stuff had to find an suitable environment in which to grow, yk? It wasn't the ideas that MacArthur kicked him out for. It was for his contentiousness.

I dunno.

C

[Learninggentleness]

Here is another example of his exegesis. We have visited his church 2 times. I don't really like such large churches, but dh wanted to go. I told dh about his stance on spanking, but he still wanted to visit because we have a friend who is happy with their respectful worship and he wanted to experience it again. Ok, so the day we went John MacArther goes up for the announcement time and announces that instead announcements he wants to explain something for the first time to his congregation because he has noticed a confusion. He then goes on to explain that Christians should not be supportive of Israel because they have been cursed by God for their rejection of The Messiah. :hunh We just could not believe it. Dh had to ask me if he understood correctly as English is not his first language. So, we decided that was definately not the church for us. :no2


I was there that morning. I can somewhat understand how you came to that conclusion, but I just thought there was a lot more to it than that. It was probably for about 10 or 15 minutes that he spoke about Isreal and the what he called the "Zionist movement" (if I remember that term correctly).

I don't want this thread to get bumped into the theological discussion board :O and not have my question from earlier this morning answered. After reading my experience this morning (above), do any of you have thoughts to share :shifty?

[Hermana Linda]

I don't want this thread to get bumped into the theological discussion board :O and not have my question from earlier this morning answered. After reading my experience this morning (above), do any of you have thoughts to share :shifty?

Sorry. :blush It was not my intention to hijack your thread.

[Learninggentleness]

Sorry. :blush It was not my intention to hijack your thread.


No, it's me - I keep on bringing up different points within my posts and that's stirring up a lot of other discussions (which it should, I think, because there is so much :hunh :mad information to mull over). I don't think you are hijacking this thread. :no :hug I just wanted to make sure this discussion doesn't get "bumped" to the theological discussions board because I still have a pressing question that I'd like some help with (based on my experience this morning with a mom from church and her son). :think

[AmyDoll]

I still have a pressing question that I'd like some help with (based on my experience this morning with a mom from church and her son).

I think I would have asked, "What happens if he doesn't obey?" I would have made her say it. Sam (who will be 3 in one week! :heart) acts like that sometimes. If I tell him to do something and he chooses not to - then he gets help - he doesn't like "help" - not bc I'm mean or angry or anything just bc he's **Mr. Independent**

I had a girlfriend who spanked. :bheart And I wasn't mean or rejecting of her while she was spanking, but when she would tell me - I would give it to her straight: That I thought there might be better ways to handle her problems. That it was sad that she was spanking. And that I knew a great website. ;)
She stopped spanking - joined GCM - and promotes it to other struggling Mommas. If you have the heart to witness to other Moms - go for it.

[cklewis]

well, Sarah, i have lots of reactions to what you're describing.

my first reaction is that it makes me tired. because . . . well, because everything you're describing happens right here in my slice of the world. sigh. . . . it's all so entrenched, yk?

my second reaction is to be even more the hermit i naturally am. :bag i don't know that that's good, but i don't know that we need to put ourselves on display either.

3rd, one thing i love about gcm is just absorbing the wisdom in how to respond. i know that's not exactly what you're asking. but it'll sink in over time, yk?

i don't know that you need to seek controversy. think esther. nudge, prod, ask, offer. . . . that's the way to start. i do that a lot in the mother's room.

my church really admires grace community. :sad2 really. it sounds like nothing *new* but just a west coast version of what we have over here on the east coast.

:pray

c

[TulipMama]

Just because he has good teachings in some areas does not mean that he has good teachings in ALL areas. shaking head no - frown

But now that I have seen how he twists scripture to support his own parenting views, I don't think I would trust him to "rightly divide the Word of Truth" elsewhere.


On the other hand, within the Christian subculture there are so many punitive cultural assumptions when teachers and individuals go to those verses, that it is almost as if they can't NOT see them as punitive. Sooooo. . . I tend to not judge a teachers ability to teach or carefully handle the Bible based on these passages, but do listen with extra alertness.

[ArmsOfLove]

I played dumb and said, "oh no- we parent with grace- have you heard of Arms of Love Family Fellowship?" He said, "Yes" and gave me a look like I had just renounced Christ Himself but that was the end- although then my dd started to run down the side walk and I said, "Stop please" and she did!! Another woman frim his church - undre his teaching-came up and said, "Wow my kids never actually do what I say" It was great because the pastor saw the whole thing. :laughtears :laughtears :laughtears I LOVE IT!

He's heard of me :giggle :shifty

And :highfive about the example you and dd were that day :tu

Oh, and "Zionism" refers to Israel as a state. If he is saying not to support Zionism/Israel as a state because Jews have been cursed by God for "killing the Messiah" then 1) he is ignoring the verse that says Jesus allowed himself to die; 2) the verses that reveal it was the Gentiles who actually crucified him; 3) he is anti-Semitic--the Jews are not cursed and that contradicts Scripture completely :cry If you don't want to support the State of Israel that is an individual choice, but to command your church not to for the reason stated is :td

[Learninggentleness]

Oh, and "Zionism" refers to Israel as a state. If he is saying not to support Zionism/Israel as a state because Jews have been cursed by God for "killing the Messiah" then 1) he is ignoring the verse that says Jesus allowed himself to die; 2) the verses that reveal it was the Gentiles who actually crucified him; 3) he is anti-Semitic--the Jews are not cursed and that contradicts Scripture completely :cry If you don't want to support the State of Israel that is an individual choice, but to command your church not to for the reason stated is :td


Oh, boy...you would have to hear it from him, himself, because he has taught sermons specifically on the fact the Jesus willingly died on the cross (this was when all the Passion of the Christ movie and mel gibson talk was going on in the media). He is quick to say that it wasn't the Jews that killed Jesus...he believes God, in essence, killed Jesus (for a supreme purpose, of course). Anyway, there is more I could write, but I'm very concerned here because his words have not been heard directly on the subject. I don't want anyone to mistakenly believe he said something he didn't say (or believe something he doesn't believe).

[ArmsOfLove]

Oh, and "Zionism" refers to Israel as a state. If he is saying not to support Zionism/Israel as a state because Jews have been cursed by God for "killing the Messiah" then 1) he is ignoring the verse that says Jesus allowed himself to die; 2) the verses that reveal it was the Gentiles who actually crucified him; 3) he is anti-Semitic--the Jews are not cursed and that contradicts Scripture completely :cry If you don't want to support the State of Israel that is an individual choice, but to command your church not to for the reason stated is :td


Oh, boy...you would have to hear it from him, himself, because he has taught sermons specifically on the fact the Jesus willingly died on the cross (this was when all the Passion of the Christ movie and mel gibson talk was going on in the media). He is quick to say that it wasn't the Jews that killed Jesus...he believes God, in essence, killed Jesus (for a supreme purpose, of course). Anyway, there is more I could write, but I'm very concerned here because his words have not been heard directly on the subject. I don't want anyone to mistakenly believe he said something he didn't say (or believe something he doesn't believe).
thanks for clarifying that :hugs Until I hear it from him (or a direct quote from something he wrote ;) ) I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. I still think it's dangerous to command parishioners to not support the State of Israel--because that is a personal choice.

[Can Dance]

wow. this thread has given me a myriad of reasons to add to my dislike of MacArthur all ready! Really sobering about his lack of study, IMO.
Thanks!

[Learninggentleness]

my second reaction is to be even more the hermit i naturally am. :bag i don't know that that's good, but i don't know that we need to put ourselves on display either.


That's my tendency, but my mom was trying to explain to me last night that I know something powerful and biblical, in Grace Based Discipline, and that others need to know as well. She has difficulty with the lack of questioning and explaining, from the Bible, that I may not engage in with these people who are misguided about something so important. She says that what I have learned (which I have shared with her) makes so much sense and that others really need to be *told* about correct interpretation of the rod scriptures and how God doesn't mandate corporal punishment, by any means. She also said that if I continue questioning things at this church, among the moms, leaders, and sunday school teachers, it will become more clear to me whether or not I am to leave Grace Church or stay. She believes I'll eventually leave, but she thinks this is an opportunity for me to personally grow in boldness and sharing the truth. :think

What do you think about that? :shrug

[cklewis]

my second reaction is to be even more the hermit i naturally am. :bag i don't know that that's good, but i don't know that we need to put ourselves on display either.


That's my tendency, but my mom was trying to explain to me last night that I know something powerful and biblical, in Grace Based Discipline, and that others need to know as well. She has difficulty with the lack of questioning and explaining, from the Bible, that I may not engage in with these people who are misguided about something so important. She says that what I have learned (which I have shared with her) makes so much sense and that others really need to be *told* about correct interpretation of the rod scriptures and how God doesn't mandate corporal punishment, by any means. She also said that if I continue questioning things at this church, among the moms, leaders, and sunday school teachers, it will become more clear to me whether or not I am to leave Grace Church or stay. She believes I'll eventually leave, but she thinks this is an opportunity for me to personally grow in boldness and sharing the truth. :think

What do you think about that? :shrug


Well, :think On a cosmic level, ITA! She's *right*! But like I joke with Crystal, we're not all called to be Jaels (the lady with the warm milk and the tent stake. Remember?). I think Crystal's a Jael. Some of us are Deborahs. I know a few here. Some are Annas and Philip the Evangelists' Daughters. But some are Esthers. I see myself as an Esther. I don't go out and tell people how they are wrong, but I'm doing the next right thing and creating an interest. I wear my babies, parent gently in front of them, and say things like "Well, in our family, we find that this-n-such works best."

I came "out" recently on another online forum. :blush It wasn't easy, Sarah. Um -- people tried to get me in trouble for it. Big trouble. Really big. Sigh. . . . I dunno.

Pray. Pray about the next right step God wants you to take. He'll nudge you.

C

[Rabbit]

my second reaction is to be even more the hermit i naturally am. :bag i don't know that that's good, but i don't know that we need to put ourselves on display either.


That's my tendency, but my mom was trying to explain to me last night that I know something powerful and biblical, in Grace Based Discipline, and that others need to know as well. She has difficulty with the lack of questioning and explaining, from the Bible, that I may not engage in with these people who are misguided about something so important. She says that what I have learned (which I have shared with her) makes so much sense and that others really need to be *told* about correct interpretation of the rod scriptures and how God doesn't mandate corporal punishment, by any means. She also said that if I continue questioning things at this church, among the moms, leaders, and sunday school teachers, it will become more clear to me whether or not I am to leave Grace Church or stay. She believes I'll eventually leave, but she thinks this is an opportunity for me to personally grow in boldness and sharing the truth. :think

What do you think about that? :shrug


I don't think most of us can give you a clear answer. I think this is definitely a pray about it, and let God nudge you issue, because when you speak about the Bible, those words need to come from him. If he has given you the words, you need to say them, without worry or fear about the consequences in your congregation. Speak now, because these people need to hear it. God has the answer to whether or not you should say anything, and he knows exactly what you should say when the time comes. I walk into conversations all the time, where I have to keep praying in my head, "God, please let no words but yours come out of my mouth." Meaning also that if God doesn't want it said, my mouth please remain shut.

-Natalie

[Benjaminswife]

(((HUGS))) I know quite a few people who really look up to John MacArthur and would do exactly what your friend did as far as telling their child to obey. It is hard to be in that situation. I remember a friend complaining to me that her 2 year old just wasn't getting it and had to be spanked over and over again. I just said something like, "Well maybe you need to look at something else" and she told me, "No, I still need to spank" but I would like to think that in the future she remembered what I had said.

I am not the type to listen to a mom like that and feel comfortable telling her what I really think about her parenting. But I am working on being more open about what I believe and trying to be helpful yet maybe help them see there is another way.

I think through prayer God will give you words to say. Maybe it won't seem like it is helping at the time, but God will use them :)

[Learninggentleness]

But like I joke with Crystal, we're not all called to be Jaels (the lady with the warm milk and the tent stake. Remember?). I think Crystal's a Jael.


Whoa...I read this: http://www.alabaster-jars.com/biblewomen-j.html after I did a google search on Jael, because I forgot the story, and was intrigued by what you said. So, if I interpret what you're saying correctly, in your opinion, we're not all called to be as bold as others (Crystal, for example) in confronting these issues? We all have different roles to play in spreading the GBD message? Interesting point. :think I'll be praying about that. :pray Thank you for your insight - you've helped me get some clarity, I think. :)

[ArmsOfLove]

{:think about how to lure Ezzo and Pearl to my tent peg :think}

:giggle

[Learninggentleness]

I think through prayer God will give you words to say. Maybe it won't seem like it is helping at the time, but God will use them :)


Your reminder (and others) to pray that God will give me the words to say has helped me see how great the need is to rely on his leading through all this. :amen Thank you. :hug

It will be an encouragement to me to remember, as you mentioned, that even though my words may not help at the time, God *will* use them how he sees fit. :)

[Learninggentleness]

{:think about how to lure Ezzo and Pearl to my tent peg :think}
:giggle


:jawdrop... :giggle... :think...

[canadiyank]

I have a cousin named Jael. She goes by "Jay" b/c most people pronounce it "jail." :/

[Learninggentleness]

one thing i love about gcm is just absorbing the wisdom in how to respond. i know that's not exactly what you're asking. but it'll sink in over time, yk?


...just wanted to add that I see what you're saying. :yes That's true - the wisdom in how to respond will sink in over time as I continue to be a part of these boards and grow in my understanding of GBD. That's encouraging! :phew

I'm so thankful to God for GCM. :heart

[katiekind]

Pray, Sarah. See if God gives you words to say in individual situations. Most mothers of young children are watching other mothers carefully to pick up ideas...so let your example speak loudly. You may find yourself "equipping" someone else simply by the words you use or the resourceful way you handle a sticky situation. Grace-based discipline can be very attractive in action.

I know what your mom is saying is TRUE...but scary as all get-out! I remember teaching a Sunday School lesson to the 8 year olds in our church one day and the take home point of the lesson was "stand up for what's right". Many times that phrase has haunted me. Still, it does need some nuancing. I can't stand up for everything in the world that's right; I don't have time. And I have to be wise as serpents; harmless as doves. I have to think strategically in different situations. And part of being strategic is thinking about whether you are in the right place to speak out about this. Your pastor is on record with a strong opinion. I imagine you are free to disagree with him, but can you teach something different without being divisive, or being perceived as divisive? How would one go about that?

[hollybells]

{:think about how to lure Ezzo and Pearl to my tent peg :think}

:giggle


:spit :laughtears

[Wholly Mama]

(((((Sarah)))))

Am I remembering correctly that your little guy has special needs? I'd be very concerned about leaving him in the care of others at church who believed that special needs were a sign of a sinful countenance. I don't think I would ever want to leave my son alone with someone who had that mind-set.

I know my sil really likes John MacArthur, and perhaps that's why she thinks that my son's special needs are so silly. That, no, he's normal, but just needs more direction.
I believed this too, once upon a time. I spanked him and spanked him, and it just wasn't beating the sinful will out of him. In fact, Satan must have had a huge strong hold on him because his rages just kept getting bigger and worse. If I had continued in that direction, I would have probably thought that he was demon-posessed. Once I addressed the real issues, cut out certain things from his diet and reworked the way I approach him, talk to him, structure our day, etc., the rages stopped. There are still occassional rages, and sometimes I still slip back into the old way of thinking, that he's doing this because he's being naughty, but then I wake up and realize that God made him special, and that we're not all the same.
Dh has the same issues that my ds has. I wonder what John's take on his problems would be - that his mom didn't spank him enough? Actually, his mom and dad both beat him pretty good.
It just breaks my heart to think about all the families that are probably in so much pain right now believing that if they just spank enough, or the right way, their child will become obedient and no longer have their issues. :(

(((((Sarah))))) You are in a tough spot. Listen to God and He will direct you in the way He wants you to go. :pray

[cklewis]

So, if I interpret what you're saying correctly, in your opinion, we're not all called to be as bold as others (Crystal, for example) in confronting these issues? We all have different roles to play in spreading the GBD message? Interesting point. :think I'll be praying about that. :pray Thank you for your insight - you've helped me get some clarity, I think. :)


:yes :yes :yes Oh my yes! I mean, we can talk about it from different angles (spiritual, biblical example, academic, theoretical, etc.), but YES! God didn't make all of us to be slaying dragons. Some are called to be gentle nudgers like Esther. Ladies who are totally, completely out of their "element" (their native country), but whom God has placed there for a reason. Those who invite the evil prime minister to dinner only to invite him to dinner again. And then . . . WHACK! She lays it on the king. THAT's evil, your royal highness. Right there next to you! (can't you just see it all? I love that story. Such drama.).

You know that the book of Esther never mentions the name of God. Not once! And "they" say that the reason it's in the biblical canon is that it shows that God is at every turn, in every small thing. He's working in ALL of it to protect and bless His people. There are no lightening strikes or grand deus ex machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). But it's still ALL God. :grin

C

[mama2three]

:popcorn

[Learninggentleness]

And part of being strategic is thinking about whether you are in the right place to speak out about this. Your pastor is on record with a strong opinion. I imagine you are free to disagree with him, but can you teach something different without being divisive, or being perceived as divisive? How would one go about that?


Yep, the fact that my pastor/church does have such a strong opinion about parenting (the way John M. described in his book), is what makes things so hard for me. Most of the parents in the church are following Ezzo's teachings, to one degree or another, even though he was kicked out of the church. I saw a ton of Ezzo's materials yesterday in that mom's bookshelf. And, I know she loves SACH, because she told me it was a good parenting book to refer to (I said that I *used* to have that book, and left it at that - we were in a group gathering with about 8 other women...I didn't want to get into why I got rid of it).


Am I remembering correctly that your little guy has special needs? I'd be very concerned about leaving him in the care of others at church who believed that special needs were a sign of a sinful countenance. I don't think I would ever want to leave my son alone with someone who had that mind-set.


Yes, my ds was diagnosed with high-functioning autism last spring. He also has other health issues that need a watchful eye from the Sunday school teachers.

One thing that concerned me is that one of the lessons he brought home was from Deut., and had to do with God blessing those who obey and cursing those who disobey. There was a picture of a family with God's blessings (for him to color in) and a picture of that same family with God's curse for disobedience. The picture of the blessing showed bountiful food, fat, grazing cows, happy family, etc. The cursed family was starving, the cow was dead with only a skull on the grass, the chickens were skinny and dying, there was clouds in the sky, etc. When I sat down and looked at that with dh I was horrified. :no2 Caleb has no foundation of the grace/love of God yet AND, he's not able to accurately understand such abstract concepts as this situation in Deut. I should probably talk to his teacher about why in the world they would be doing studies like this for a 4-5 year old class, but I'm nervous. I don't deal well with confrontation (unless it's with very close family members who I know well already). That's just one example of why I'm concerned about ds.


So, if I interpret what you're saying correctly, in your opinion, we're not all called to be as bold as others (Crystal, for example) in confronting these issues? We all have different roles to play in spreading the GBD message? Interesting point. :think I'll be praying about that. :pray Thank you for your insight - you've helped me get some clarity, I think. :)

:yes :yes :yes Oh my yes! I mean, we can talk about it from different angles (spiritual, biblical example, academic, theoretical, etc.), but YES! God didn't make all of us to be slaying dragons. Some are called to be gentle nudgers like Esther. Ladies who are totally, completely out of their "element" (their native country), but whom God has placed there for a reason. Those who invite the evil prime minister to dinner only to invite him to dinner again. And then . . . WHACK! She lays it on the king. THAT's evil, your royal highness. Right there next to you! (can't you just see it all? I love that story. Such drama.).

You know that the book of Esther never mentions the name of God. Not once! And "they" say that the reason it's in the biblical canon is that it shows that God is at every turn, in every small thing. He's working in ALL of it to protect and bless His people. There are no lightening strikes or grand deus ex machina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deus_ex_machina). But it's still ALL God. :grin


That's deep. Lots to think and pray about. One thing that makes this tough is that dh is so bogged down with the sheriff's academy that he doesn't have the time, energy, or mindspace to deal with all this with me. Even reading this thread - I've been wanting him to read it for two nights in a row, but he's just whooped. So, I feel like it's all on my shoulders. :nails

[cklewis]

Oh, that busy spouse thing is hard. I know. Grant and I say that we each have half a brain, and it's impossible to really wrap ourselves around anything (even like flooring the dining room or purchasing furniture) without BOTH of us there).

:hug

C

[Titus2Momof4]

We have visited his church 2 times. I don't really like such large churches, but dh wanted to go.

*totally hijacking here*

About how big is this church? The church we attend has about 700 at the service we go to (there's about another 3-400 at the earlier service). We feel, for us, that this is just right.....big enough to be a big church service, but not SO big that we are lost or anything....

[Hermana Linda]

how big is this church? The church we attend has about 700 at the service we go to (there's about another 3-400 at the earlier service). We feel, for us, that this is just right.....big enough to be a big church service, but not SO big that we are lost or anything....
I don't really know, but their website is http://www.gracechurch.org/home/ It feels to me like going to a concert.

[HuggaBuggaMommy]

We have visited his church 2 times. I don't really like such large churches, but dh wanted to go.

*totally hijacking here*

About how big is this church? The church we attend has about 700 at the service we go to (there's about another 3-400 at the earlier service). We feel, for us, that this is just right.....big enough to be a big church service, but not SO big that we are lost or anything....


It's about 10,000 people.

[Learninggentleness]

It's about 10,000 people.


But this amount is split into the two main services: 8:30am and 10:30am (and actually a 6:00pm sunday evening service).

[Hermana Linda]

It's about 10,000 people.

But this amount is split into the two main services: 8:30am and 10:30am (and actually a 6:00pm sunday evening service).

Yeah, and probably includes the Hispanic church and spotty attenders. So, maybe about 3,000-5,000 at the 10:30 am service. We have never even vistited the Spanish church there. We are now at the Spanish church of Canoga Park Baptist. Maybe 30-50 people at the service. :)