why do they always quote Proverbs?

[hbmamma]

Okay, so I've started this conversation with my dad (he's a pastor and we've talked about how I don't spank...he thinks I should have that as a "tool in my parenting toolbox" - taking my words). Anyway, he always quotes Proverbs and I know that there's a lot of good stuff there and that I've explained to him the meaning of the sherpa and such. Why does everyone seem stuck in Proverbs and what can I say?

[Epieikeia]

The reason they only quote Proverbs is because that is all they can quote---there is no other reference found in Scripture that can be used in regards to spanking.

You said you dad is a pastor---does he know Hebrew? My dh is a pastor and I am so thankful our denom requires 8 years of Hebrew and Greek. It was in doing the exegesis from the Hebrew that convinced my dh that the "rod" is not literal and spanking is not endorsed at all by those passages. :heart

Oh, I have more to say...but I hear someone crying....will be back.

[Katherine]

Shanna posted while I was typing... so along the same lines.. :O

Everyone is stuck in Proverbs b/c spanking isn't commanded anywhere in the Bible, and the specific (English) words used in modern translations of the wisdom literature are the only place where this cultural practice can find a source of defense and supposedly Biblical support. :/

I would ask him why he takes those few verses as mandates to execute specific, literal, physical ACTIONS when he doesn't treat the rest of the book that way. (I'm assuming he doesn't believe people who are prone to over-eating should slit their throats.. ?) :shrug :shifty

[cklewis]

ITA. that's the only place they can go. :shrug

but this week, after hearing a really lousy sermon from Proverbs, i was wondering. in some way, it's the easiest book to abuse because it's soooooo cultural. that's how Proverbs are. i mean, what if in 3000 years, someone finds these:

A miss is as good as a mile.
Bad news travels fast.
Close, but no cigar.
Don't cry over spilt milk.
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Fish or cut bait.
I'd rather be red than dead.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
In God we trust; all others pay cash.
Make love, not war.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.


and takes them literally -- every word. they'll so miss the point. we know what these mean because each contains a story. none are literal.

c

[ArmsOfLove]

ITA. that's the only place they can go. :shrug

but this week, after hearing a really lousy sermon from Proverbs, i was wondering. in some way, it's the easiest book to abuse because it's soooooo cultural. that's how Proverbs are. i mean, what if in 3000 years, someone finds these:

A miss is as good as a mile.
Bad news travels fast.
Close, but no cigar.
Don't cry over spilt milk.
Don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
Don't put all your eggs in one basket.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Fish or cut bait.
I'd rather be red than dead.
If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
In God we trust; all others pay cash.
Make love, not war.
Put your money where your mouth is.
Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me.


and takes them literally -- every word. they'll so miss the point. we know what these mean because each contains a story. none are literal.

c
yep yep yep yep yep :yes

that is why I beat the dead horse :giggle of needing a Hebraic understanding of things. When you understand what it meant to the original audience then you can understand what it really means! There are things like this being found all over Scripture and people going :idea like how "husband of one wife" is best understood as "one-woman kind of man"--a character quality as opposed to marital status.

Anyway, I learned something really neat about sheep in Israel so I'm starting another thread :)

[Mother Duck]

Yeah, what they all said! :yes

[hbmamma]

I know what you're all saying (and I agree) but his point is that "there needs to be a punishment for 'willful' disobedience" - how do I respond to this? I've brought up that how can I know their heart - only God can know their heart. But he feels that if you say, "Don't do X" and then they go and do X that they should be spanked. It's not something that they would endorse using except in certain cases.

Example: As a child, I knew that I would get spanked if I lied. So when I was caught in a lie, I got spanked. That's where he's coming from. :shrug

[mom2threePKs]

I'm just cracking up at the thought of folks using "Make love, not war" the way we use "Spare the rod, Spoil the Child." :crazy

Excellent point....

Magan

[ArmsOfLove]

t "there needs to be a punishment for 'willful' disobedience" - how do I respond to this? "There was--the cross. How can I do better than that?" :shrug

[TulipMama]

I'm just cracking up at the thought of folks using "Make love, not war" the way we use "Spare the rod, Spoil the Child."


ROTFLOL!!!

[Katherine]

his point is that "there needs to be a punishment for 'willful' disobedience"
ITA with TulipMama's answer. :yes and I think you have to explore the "why?" of this statement.

Is it to make them pay for their wrong-doing? (that's already been paid for on the cross)
Is it to teach them that God punishes us every time we slip up? (that's not Biblical!)
Is it to prevent them from doing it again? (many of us here can testify to how well that works. Not. :shifty)

You said it yourself: "Example: As a child, I knew that I would get spanked if I lied. So when I was caught in a lie, I got spanked. "

You knew the price for lying, and there were times you decided to risk it anyway. Having set punishments for certain misbehaviors teaches the principles of commerce, exchange, risk-taking, and strategy (how to not get caught). It does not teach worthy, Biblically accurate principles about who God is or what is right.

[hbmamma]

his point is that "there needs to be a punishment for 'willful' disobedience"
ITA with TulipMama's answer. :yes and I think you have to explore the "why?" of this statement.

Is it to make them pay for their wrong-doing? (that's already been paid for on the cross)
Is it to teach them that God punishes us every time we slip up? (that's not Biblical!)
Is it to prevent them from doing it again? (many of us here can testify to how well that works. Not. :shifty)

You said it yourself: "Example: As a child, I knew that I would get spanked if I lied. So when I was caught in a lie, I got spanked. "

You knew the price for lying, and there were times you decided to risk it anyway. Having set punishments for certain misbehaviors teaches the principles of commerce, exchange, risk-taking, and strategy (how to not get caught). It does not teach worthy, Biblically accurate principles about who God is or what is right.

Thank you - that makes perfect sense to me! I was having a hard time with how to say it all and you're so right.

You know, the last time I lied to my parents I was 12 - they said I was too big to spank. You know what they did? They had me write out 100 Bible verses (10 different ones 10x each). My hand hurt, but that wasn't the point. When I was nearly finished, with my hand achy, my dad wrote out the rest of my "sentence" to demonstrate mercy and grace. They were carefully selected about how God feels about lying and I have never intentionally lied since then. Not that the purpose of it was to be a punishment, but rather that I understood how God felt about it and I didn't want to be that kind of person, nor was that what a child of God did.

So with all this, I :scratch as to how my dad can reach some of his conclusions. On one hand he promotes a good spank on the tush, yet with this example, he demonstrates how grace and mercy can be used to draw a child closer to God. Anyone confused yet?

[CelticJourney]

Why does everyone seem stuck in Proverbs and what can I say?

I think I would say "I interpret the proverbs in light of the gospel as presented and demonstrated by Jesus in the New Testiment. He instructed teaching in love and patience, and that love does not cause fear or pain."

[SouthPaw]

I think some people feel like they have to keep spanking as a tool because of those situations where it is the only thing that makes THEM feel like penance has been done or paid. I don't think it's about the child at all in those cases. But that's JMO.