Dd is begging me to spank her

[fruitofthewomb]

Some of you know, I've struggled with this. I met with an AP mom at Starbucks last night, and it was good to make a non-spanking irl contact. So once again, I've decided (with your help and God's) that I am not raising a hand or a rod or anything else to her. Yesterday she clearly disobeyed me and I told her when I was finished nursing Emery I was going to have to spank her. I had time to think about it and I came out and said, "I'm not going to spank you, I'm going to say no computer time for the rest of today and tomorrow." She was UPSET about it. I guess I can consider that confirmation from God that I don't have to spank to discipline? This morning she's asking me why I took it away, and after reminding her, she's begging me to "Pleeeeeeease spank me, Mommy! Pleeeeeease!!!! Don't take the computer away!!! They SAY you're supposed to spank me, Mommy!!!" Hmmmm...I just thought as I typed this that maybe this is the enemy trying to tempt me! :jawdrop Anyway, her consequence is no computer games for the day.

So she's so upset that aside from begging me and me having to explain over and over again, she is making disrespectful noises and body language gestures (arms folded across the chest, face wrinkled up, HUMPH!!!!). I told her in a very loving tone that that is not a nice way to express herself, but that she can use her words to tell me she's upset. She did it again so I told her she would have to spend time on her bed until she's ready to change her attitude. Is that punitive?? What do you do when they use the faces and disrespectful sounds and gestures?

[Mamatoto]

I am so glad that you made this decision. :hugheart

One thing I thought of is that a spanking is over with fast and the child doesn't have to carry the burden of what they did all day long...it is too much for a young child, IMO. What did she do? Is it possible for you to deal with it right there in a non punitive manner without taking things away from her (another punishment)? :think

[TulipMama]

What do you do when they use the faces and disrespectful sounds and gestures?

It depends. Sometimes that is a cue for me that we need to re-connect. *hug* So I'll pull my child on my lap and hug (and pray silently.) Sometimes that's all we need. Sometimes that just prepares both of us to address the issue at hand.

[fruitofthewomb]

I don't know if it's possible. I don't get how to discipline in a non-punitive manner. I get the baby almost down to sleep and then she comes back there to tell me something and he is up and I have to start all over again. I showed her grace and said, "Emma, I want you to play in the back room until I'm finished putting Emery to sleep; do not come back here again, do you understand?" She said yes. So I started all over again and then she came back to show me a picture out of a catalog. Again I was at square one with the baby (he loves her and wants to be awake in her presence). I said, "Emma, I will look at that when I come out. Do you remember what we agreed on when you left the time before?" She repeated to me what I had said, which confirmed that she clearly understood and made a choice to disobey. I am open to suggestions as to what to do. She seems to get this. She'll be 5 in a couple weeks, and she's very mature for her age.

[4Cygnets]

Well, you didn't spank, and that's great!! :tu Taking the computer away, especially for so long, was punitive. It didn't have anything to do with what she'd done wrong.

What I have done with my own kids, is make sure they are engaged in an activity that will keep them busy. Like I'd let her play the computer while I am getting the baby to sleep. Or, watch a video. I also turn on the fan in my master bath that helps cover noise so that maybe the baby won't become alert if someone opens the door.

:hug You are doing great! I come from a very punitive background, and I know it's really hard to break that pattern :hug

[Maggie]

I think assigning positive intent is important here, that there's not an intent to disobey, or that there's a reason she's doing it. DD4 has to be reminded of things over and over again and helped to do what I ask her to do. I agree with getting her engaged in an activity. Maybe tell her that if she stays in another room, you can get the baby to sleep more quickly and can do X with her.

:hug

[fruitofthewomb]

I've tried that and she's fully aware that every time she comes back there and interrupts it takes longer to put the baby down, and it takes up more of our time together; that if she leaves me to do my job I can be out to play with her sooner. Very frustrating. I see that the computer has nothing to do with what she did, but I still don't know what to do - put locks on the doors? Lock her in her room while I get him down? :banghead :shrug

[SueQ]

:hugheart My 2 yo and my 5 yo have the habit of doing that. I have started getting out playdough or another fun activity for them to do while I nurse the baby to sleep. I then tell them not to disturb me unless someone is hurt very badly or the house is on fire and I lock the bedroom door and turn on the white noise machine.

The new activity works wonders. We also sometimes all snuggle together and read stories while I nurse the baby to sleep. That works unless the boys are restless and active. hen I ship them out of the room, tell them to get out ________ and I turn the noise machine on and lock the door. ;)

[DogwoodMama]

I've tried that and she's fully aware that every time she comes back there and interrupts it takes longer to put the baby down, and it takes up more of our time together; that if she leaves me to do my job I can be out to play with her sooner. Very frustrating. I see that the computer has nothing to do with what she did, but I still don't know what to do - put locks on the doors? Lock her in her room while I get him down? :banghead :shrug


To me, this is evidence that she doesn't fully understand the unintended consequence of what she's doing... if she interrupts you, then she gets more of your atttention *at that moment* but she doesn't really grasp that if she left you alone she'd get more of your complete attention later. She just doesn't get it, you can't punish her into an understanding of it. :shrug I mean, don't we do this even as adults occassionally? My dh is a computer programmer, and there are times when he is trying to finish up a little application (for fun at home) and I will go start talking to him... he half listens to me, and it takes longer... but if I wait until he's done he gives me complete attention. Yet I'll still try to talk to him while he's programming stuff or writing out an email message, even though I know better. :O So when I catch myself doing this, I have to purposely go engage myself in something else to distract me from my impatience to talk to dh. (Unless it's an emergency, then he *will* stop.) But I'm an adult with impulse control who can redirect my own activities... at this point you still have to do this for your dd.

I agree- if you get her involved in an engaging activity, then she will be less motivated to seek out your attention until you are able to get it. :tu

[Marsha]

I absolutely know what you are talking about and it drove me bonkers when baby was younger. My 4 yo is much better about leaving us alone so baby will go to sleep now, but she's had a year to get used to it. I got to where I'd pop in a 30 minute video and tell her to NOT come get me unless she was bleeding until it was over. That usually did it.
I don't think they mean to disobye. They are just so used to having that constant contact and running conversation. And they don't think ahead, like if I let baby go to sleep, mom will spend time with me, yk?
how are YOU feeling lately?

[snlmama]

My ds would rather die than miss out on computer time so I think that's what you are seeing there - it's not that she "needs" or "wants" the spanking - she's trying to figure out what to do to get her computer time back.



I've tried that and she's fully aware that every time she comes back there and interrupts it takes longer to put the baby down, and it takes up more of our time together; that if she leaves me to do my job I can be out to play with her sooner. Very frustrating. I see that the computer has nothing to do with what she did, but I still don't know what to do - put locks on the doors? Lock her in her room while I get him down? :banghead :shrug


To me, this is evidence that she doesn't fully understand the unintended consequence of what she's doing... if she interrupts you, then she gets more of your atttention *at that moment* but she doesn't really grasp that if she left you alone she'd get more of your complete attention later. She just doesn't get it, you can't punish her into an understanding of it. :shrug I mean, don't we do this even as adults occassionally? My dh is a computer programmer, and there are times when he is trying to finish up a little application (for fun at home) and I will go start talking to him... he half listens to me, and it takes longer... but if I wait until he's done he gives me complete attention. Yet I'll still try to talk to him while he's programming stuff or writing out an email message, even though I know better. :O So when I catch myself doing this, I have to purposely go engage myself in something else to distract me from my impatience to talk to dh. (Unless it's an emergency, then he *will* stop.) But I'm an adult with impulse control who can redirect my own activities... at this point you still have to do this for your dd.

I agree- if you get her involved in an engaging activity, then she will be less motivated to seek out your attention until you are able to get it. :tu


:yes And she already is getting the "natural consequence" of not obeying you in this case - having to wait longer for you to be done. ;) My kids are a bit closer together, so when I was dealing w/ this my oldest was a bit younger and it was hard for him to get. For awhile what worked for us was to nurse the little one, rock both of them and read to the older one. It took some work to get the positioning all worked out, but it made my life easier. The plus side was that ds2 got "his time" while I was nursing the little one so I ended up getting more of a "break" during naptime - after 20-30 min. of being rocked and read to he was pretty agreeable to do something on his own for awhile while I did some house work. ;)

Honestly I think it's more the beginnings of sibling rivalry than defiance and if you treat it as such and try to handle it in a way that will build sibling relationships as well as your relationship w/ her it will really benefit you all further down the road.

It's hard, I know. :hugheart

[pneumaphile]

You didn't spank, but taking away a privilege is punitive and unrelated, as well.

It sounds like your 5-year-old needs your presence, and no amount of needing to put the baby asleep is going to change that fact. Just like we tell people about nighttime parenting - just because it's night doesn't mean your child doesn't need you. . .it's the same here. Just because you want to put the baby down for a nap doesn't mean your 5-year-old doesn't need you.

There are all kinds of ways to handle this, if you can think outside the box/get ideas from others. I like the idea of saving something that isn't normally allowed (like playdough) for when you need her to be engaged. I personally didn't leave my older to get my younger down. I made them all lay down for an hour (with quiet music and books if they were too old to sleep). But I'm sure somewhere in there there's a solution for your problem that doesn't involve punishing your 5-year-old for needing mom.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I wonder, could your dd sit next to you quietly and maybe hold your hand or something? That is what happens when I put both of my dc down to sleep. I nurse my baby and my older one lays down next to his brother and holds my hand. Just a thought, nap times can be tough, and leaving one child down stairs while I put the other one to sleep up stairs did not work.

[Katherine]

((( fruitofthewomb )))

I'm glad you're being led away from spanking. It's a tough transition. When I stopped, I thought I was going to lose my mind for about a month, and then it gradually started to improve. :hug

I agree with the others about why she might have asked to be spanked. I remember asking for spankings, too, and it had nothing to do learning a lesson. :rolleyes2 The rare time I actually wanted them was so that I could stop feeling bad about myself or so that my parents could stop being mad at me. You actually set a higher price on the deed she did, and that's what she was protesting. She wants her "Everything's-a-Dollar" (e.g. everything's-a-spanking) system back cause it was a better bargain, and she already has coping mechanisms in place for handling it. (I used to try to consciously disassociate myself from what was happening... not a very healthy emotional habit to get into) :(

She repeated to me what I had said, which confirmed that she clearly understood and made a choice to disobey.

I think one of the hardest shifts for me was to stop drawing lines in the sand in an effort to exercise containment and control (these can only be enforced by reactive parenting, usually punishments) and start helping my kids *do* and *be* successful in a way that meshed with what the rest of our family needed. It's the difference between constantly telling them what NOT to do versus what *to* do. I'm not sure if that makes sense... :think I think it's the reason why people are suggesting other activities and such.

I have an almost-5yr old--my oldest--who hates to be left alone. He wants to be with other human being 24/7 and it's VERY rare for him to want solitude. He was the type that would not under any circumstances go to sleep in a room by himself (still resists it) but he'll lay down in the same room where I'm working and be out in minutes. Even if he's doing something he LOVES, he'll leave it and come upstairs if that's where everyone else is. Could this be a factor with your dd? Does she just want to be with other people all the time? Or does she only seem to care when you withdraw to take care of the baby? The answer might determine how you approach it.

[fruitofthewomb]

I got my parents to watch Emery while me and Emma went to Barnes and Noble on a date. We read through books, ate and drank at the cafe and picked some books to take home. We ended up spending 3 hours together. That rarely happens. I gave her back her computer priveleges after talking to her in depth about how it makes the time away from her longer when she interrupts me. No, I can't have her back there with me. I used to, but Emery is so in love with her, he cannot focus on nursing. He keeps whipping his head around at her, laughing. And if he makes a noise, it winds her up as well. But we talked about it and agreed on me setting her up with play-doh, a craft, coloring, the computer; something like that to occupy her while I'm putting him down. Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your non-judgmental feedback. I don't act the way I do because I'm a jerk; I just really don't know how to stop the unhealthy cycle. It is so hard. :banghead

[milkmommy]

She might not realy understand how distracting she is to her sibling. Could you give her some tasks to do while you nurse like have her go get a diaper or pick some clothes for her sibling. ready maybe have her sit at th kitchen table and have her do some art with something kinda special like markers or something you wouldn't nomally have free range to.

Oh the sassing and looks on one level I ingnore it if it gets to te point of being down right disrespctful she can do it in her room and not in front of me :shrug

Deanna

[milkmommy]

Just read your last post :tu sounds like a plan. and :hug2 its a hard journey your a great mom.

Deanna

[Marzipan]

:hug

[Katherine]

:tu :highfive :heart Sounds like ya'll had a really precious and productive time together! :hug

I do understand about distracting the nursing bab. :rolleyes2 ds1 and ds3 are two peas in a pod when it comes to being social, and I often have to separate them in order to get the baby focused on nursing... sometimes it works to put him at an activity in the same room--sometimes not--and he's learning to choose between being with us, but quiet and being by himself and loud. :grin

[Mamatoto]

How old is she? :think

[mom2threePKs]

One more idea for you. What if you and dd made a big red stop sign together and at nap time you put it up on the door to the baby's room. Then she would have a reminder to stop and not come in. The other idea is to tell her when she can interrupt you. For us we tell the girls "blood or barf" when we want them to give us some uninterrupted time. That way you phrase it in the positive as well.

I don't act the way I do because I'm a jerk; I just really don't know how to stop the unhealthy cycle. It is so hard.

Of course you don't act this way because you are a jerk! :hug And it is hard to make a massive paradigm shift! I love that you went out and reconnected with her and talked to her in depth about all this. :heart She will probably interrupt you again at some point but that's o-kay. It's another opportunity to teach. :highfive

Magan

[Rbonmom]

:hug And good for you for listening to what God is calling you to do :tu It so hard to go against the tide of mainstream parenting, or even think outside of it.
I never parented punitively, but I was raise that way, and even though I have lots of experience with kids, it feels some times like I have no idea what I'm doing. The punitive stuff is so ingrained that it pops up without even trying, and I really have to work to come up with ideas that aren't punitive. I feel like I wasn't equipped with parenting "tools" at all other than spank for everything.
You're doing a great job trying to come up with creative solutions! I think also, one of my biggest issues with mainstream parenting is that it rarely recognizes child development and what kids truly grasp. We're so used to hearing from a young age "oh, she knows exactly what she's doing! She's just trying to test me." etc... that it's hard to separate out the truth that often parents are expecting way more that testing and research shows their brains are capable of understanding. But we hear it so often, we don't even question it a lot of times.

[klpmommy]

But we talked about it and agreed on me setting her up with play-doh, a craft, coloring, the computer; something like that to occupy her while I'm putting him down.

I used to put ds in front of a video. I "swore" I would never let my 2 y/o watch tv, but it was the only thing that worked and kept me sane when I would try to nurse dd to sleep. If it wasn't sleeping time & she was nursing it wasn't a big deal to have him around. But that is one of the things I love about "AP" parenting- it is all about finding out what works for you & your children rather than being a one-size-fits-all approach. My dd wouldn't sit & watch tv unless someone is with her, but she would lay down quietly or look at books quietly if I needed her to be quiet for a while.

Thanks for your comments. I appreciate your non-judgmental feedback. I don't act the way I do because I'm a jerk; I just really don't know how to stop the unhealthy cycle. It is so hard.

:hug Definately not a jerk- an imperfect human just like the rest of us. And you are doing a good thing b/c you *are* working to stop the cycle. It is always the hardest in the beginning, no matter what unhealthy thing you are trying to stop doing.

[Katherine]

Magan,

I love the stop sign idea. :tu

[fruitofthewomb]

How old is she? :think


She'll be 5 in a couple of weeks.

[ArmsOfLove]

I don't think asking for a spanking has anything to do with not wanting to carry a burden all day long :rolleyes2 I think she wanted to play the computer and figured the choice was "spanking or computer loss" so she was opting for a spanking. That, to me, is evidence that spankings don't mean anything to children as far as learning or discipline goes :shrug

:highfive for not spanking!

As for what to do instead of punishing--stop the behavior. Once it stops, it's done. Let it go--forgive her and move on :shrug

:hug

[slingmamaof4]

You are doing wonderful!!!!!!!! That you were able to not spank and you came up with some great ideas to keep her occupied while you nurse your ds to sleep. :highfive

I LOVE the stop sign idea! That is great. She really may need that in front of ther reminder, even though she is mature for her age. She might be very excited about something she made with the playdoh or drew and run to show you (while are nursing your ds to sleep) and seeing that stop sign will remind her that she is not to go in during this time unless she is ....hurt...sick....

You may even want to have her go shopping with you (like the time you just spent together) and have her pick out a few things and a nice container to put them in that are specifically this time.

I have to tell you that it wasn't all that long ago I was being punitive totally unintentionally. I thought time out and taking toys and such away were fine. I didn't think they were punitive at all. I called them consequences. I didn't view them as a punishment. At it took some time, some reading, some support on here, and from Rebecca (jadensmom--my bf irl) to start seeing that the way I was handling things was still punitive...not a physical punishment, like hitting or spanking but a punishment nonetheless. And sometimes I still struggle with not knowing what to do at times and I couold just :hissyfit. Occasionally I do :hissyfit. :shifty But the more I read and pray and such the "easier" it becomes. I don't think about spanking anymore, even though when I was first making a transition when my dd was very young (ds wasn't even born yet) I thought about it a lot and had to make a very conscious effort not to spank. There were times I threatened to spank her and then told her that I said that because I was very frustrated and I would reassure her that I was not going to spank her.

There are a lot of great parenting books that have very usable and practical examples of how to reword things, how to see things differently...I know you are likely very busy, but they were incredibly helpful to me.

Easy to Love, Difficult to Discipline by Becky Bailey

How to Talk So Your Kids will Listen & Listen So Your Kids will Talk by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish

Both of these you can likely find in your local library.

And Crystal's (ArmsOfLove) book Biblical Parenting is short, so it doesn't take long to read which is great for those of us who find it hard to read much at one time due to busy schedules. But it is great.


:hug :tu :heart

[Eowyn]

I don't act the way I do because I'm a jerk; I just really don't know how to stop the unhealthy cycle. It is so hard. :banghead


Of course you're not a jerk. :no You're human just like the rest of us. :hug

I've been AP minded for years, and was before I got pregnant (aside from 2 weeks of Ezzo feeding influence that lasted until day 15 when Mama grew a backbone), and pretty much have been my whole parenting career. But I was still punitive. It's a total shift in thinking that, while a progression of AP, goes totally beyond it. For me, what made the difference was someone on here (Crystal, I assume :))defining punishment as "something extra to make the child feel bad or drive the lesson home". Once I stopped worrying about making what he did wrong stick out in his mind, it got much easier to focus instead on teaching him how to do what he should instead. I'm still hit or miss, depending on how well I'm feeling, but I notice the days my attitude is better are much smoother.

As far as the issue in the OP, I love the stop sign idea. What a great visual reminder. For my easily distracted 18 month old nursling, big brother really enjoys his "Dora Splorer" time.

[fruitofthewomb]

Darn, I was looking for Crystal's book in Barnes and Noble yesterday but couldn't find it. Also I think I saw the How to Talk...-book but I couldn't remember the names of the ones from you guys vs the ones from my spanking friends.

[Titus2Momof4]

I don't know if it's possible. I don't get how to discipline in a non-punitive manner.

:hugheart

Now, I am *so* not an expert or anything, but I am someone who comes from a punitive background, and who struggles internally with the knee-jerk reaction to be punitive. I don't *do* it, but sometimes it's my immediate thought (not spanking.. but something else punitive, like removing priviledges...)

Two things that help me to discipline in non-punitive ways:
1) Remembering that not *everything* even *is* a discipline issue. Yep, say that 30 times a day to yourself, because it's true! :)
2) Locigal consequences. I ask myself, "Is this related in any way/shape/form to whatever it is they did wrong?"

Thought that might help you. :) :hug

[fruitofthewomb]

That does help, thanks!