The Little Pilgrim's Progress

[Wholly Mama]

This could be in this forum, or in the theology one.

I'm reading this book to my boys at night. It is the children's version of Bunyan's original work (which I've started reading, but have yet to get very far). It's a wonderful peice of work. It's an awesome allegory of the Christian life, and it's great for talking through things with my children.
But, there are some parts which disturb me. When a servant of the King comes to met out punishment. The first time, I could kind of read over it without the kids really know what went on, but this second time was blatant. The first was when Justice came and whipped Christian for straying off the path, though he had known he was wrong and turned back. The second time, was when both Christian and Hopeful were decieved by the Flatterer to go on the wrong path. They had been given a map by the Shepards which told them which way to go, and had been warned by the Shepards not to listen to the Flatterer. But, the boys forgot about the map when they came to the fork in the road and then they were confused because the Flatterer was dressed like a pilgrim. The Shining One comes to rescue them. The King sent him due to the Prince's pleas. But, once the Shining One rescued the boys from the Flatterer's net, he talked to them about what they had done wrong, and then took out a whip and whipped the boys. Now this part happened shortly after Christian and Faithful had been captured in "Vanity Fair" and Faithful had died as a result of the servants of the Wicked Prince beating him to death. My little one said, "That's not okay, mama!" I said, "I know. I don't like this part of the book." I felt it was very confusing, that the King would be doing to the boys exactly what the Wicked Prince had ordered. :scratch
So, it really got me thinking. I know this is a common thought, that the Lord *does* punish us when we disobey Him. In the beginning of Christian's journey there is a lot of help for him which keeps him on the straight path. As he goes further on his journey, he encounters more and more things that can cause him to stray. The reasons for the boys' punishment the second time was that they basically should have known better since they had been pilgrims for a long enough time.
Care to hash this out with me?

[Mother Duck]

:popcorn

[Love_Is_Patient]

With one possible exception, I can't think of any Scriptures where God punished someone after they had repented. Sometimes he punishes them (ie Israel being captured over and over) to wake them up and bring them to repentance, but after they repent he saves them! The one example can think of is David's son dying, but I know that can be understood in different ways (it's been discussed before here), and I wouldn't build a whole concept on that one possible example anyway. I do not believe that God punishes us after we have already turned away from that sin (but natural consequences might well continue--for example pregnancy resulting from premarital sex, bad health resulting from drug habit, etc.)

[Chris3jam]

:popcorn

[katiekind]

Is this a take-off on the real Pilgrim's Progress or an abridged version? I don't remember that from the real one, but it's been quite a few years since I read it.

[Chris3jam]

Well, maybe it's because it was written in a time where that kind of 'punishment' was 'normal'. Because I am reasonably sure that it wouldn't be Biblical. I mean, how long has it been going on now that people equate "discipline" with "spanking"?

[TulipMama]

Which children's version is it? I don't remember it in the Helen Taylor "Little Pilgrim's Progress." (Of course, I could be forgetting it--as in the "filter" conversation going on. . .)

[heartofjoy]

I've read the original, and I don't remember any punishments...consequences, yes. I certainly don't remember any whippings. However, I could be fogetting (or filtering).

[Wholly Mama]

It's this version: http://www.amazon.com/Little-Pilgrims-Progress-Bunyans-Classic/dp/0802449247/sr=8-1/qid=1159733641/ref=sr_1_1/102-5053554-0463305?ie=UTF8&s=books


Book Description
Fifty-five years ago, Helen L. Taylor took John Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress and simplified the vocabulary and concepts for young readers, while keeping the storyline intact. The result was a classic in itself, which has now sold over 600,000 copies. It’s both a simple adventure story and a profound allegory of the Christian journey through life, a delightful read with a message kids ages 6 to 12 can understand and remember. A new look and fresh illustrations for today’s children enlivens the journey to the Celestial City.


About the Author
HELEN L. TAYLOR, has carefully rewritten a centuries-old tale in order that children might be able to grasp the truths set
out by John Bunyan in 1678.
JOHN BUNYAN, after years of dealing with his own inner struggles, gave his life to the Lord and spent the remainder of
his life preaching and teaching truth without fear. Perhaps his greatest legacy is this work, The Pilgrim’s Progress.



That's interesting that the original doesn't have these punishments. I really want to read the original, now. If that's true, isn't it sad that the one geared toward children shows God sending people to hit them for when they've done wrong? :no2

[katiekind]

Oh, alas and alack--I just looked it up online...the original Pilgrim's Progess does have a scene just as you described it, Wholly Mama.

Well, your son showed good discernment!

[Wholly Mama]

Thanks, Kathy for inspiring me to look it up on-line (didn't know it was there!)

From the original:
Then I saw in my dream, that he commanded them to lie down; which when they did, he chastised them sore, to teach them the good way wherein they should walk, Deut. 25:2; 2 Chron. 6:27; and as he chastised them, he said, “As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten; be zealous, therefore, and repent.” Rev. 3:19. This done, he bids them to go on their way, and take good heed to the other directions of the shepherds. So they thanked him for all his kindness, and went softly along the right way, singing,

“Come hither, you that walk along the way,

See how the pilgrims fare that go astray:

They catched are in an entangling net,

Cause they good counsel lightly did forget:

’Tis true, they rescued were; but yet, you see,

They’re scouged to boot; let this your caution be.”

Hmmm...
Don't you think the Pilgrims felt bad enough about being decieved and led astray, and don't you think they felt enough gratitude to the Lord for saving them without having to be whipped to feel it moreso?
Here are the verses referenced in the original. With a little more context to put them in.

Duet. 25: 1-3
If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that [the judges] may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.


Deu 25:2 And it shall be, if the wicked man [be] worthy to be beaten, that the judge shall cause him to lie down, and to be beaten before his face, according to his fault, by a certain number.


Deu 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, [and] not exceed: lest, [if] he should exceed, and beat him above these with many stripes, then thy brother should seem vile unto thee.

2 Chron. 6:24-28
And if thy people Israel be put to the worse before the enemy, because they have sinned against thee; and shall return and confess thy name, and pray and make supplication before thee in this house;


2Ch 6:25 Then hear thou from the heavens, and forgive the sin of thy people Israel, and bring them again unto the land which thou gavest to them and to their fathers.


2Ch 6:26 ¶ When the heaven is shut up, and there is no rain, because they have sinned against thee; [yet] if they pray toward this place, and confess thy name, and turn from their sin, when thou dost afflict them;


2Ch 6:27 Then hear thou from heaven, and forgive the sin of thy servants, and of thy people Israel, when thou hast taught them the good way, wherein they should walk; and send rain upon thy land, which thou hast given unto thy people for an inheritance.


2Ch 6:28 ¶ If there be dearth in the land, if there be pestilence

Rev. 3:15-22
[quote]I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.


Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:


Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.


Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.


Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[Katherine]

I'm glad you posted this.. I just bought that last week... maybe I'll hold off on reading it for a while. :think

[Wholly Mama]

palil, after just reading through the 'broken will' thread on this forum, I see so many similarities in this story and the type of church you and Chris3jam attend(ed). The "God spankings", the "idea that God loves Christ, and therefore--on Christ's behalf--He accepts and tolerates us, constantly trying to purge us of all the filth and sin and inadequacy and unworthiness that comprises the whole of who we are."

From the Little Pilgrim's Progress:
"The King will forgive you, but I shall be obliged to punish you..."

When it[the punishment] was over, the Shining One told them that the King would not remember their naughtiness anymore.

"Our dear Prince," he said, "was once a pilgrim, and He has not forgotten the dangers and difficulties of the way. He is always watching over you, and when you are careless He begs His Father to forgive you for His sake."


It's a wonderful book, in general. I'm really enjoying it and my kids are, too. When I started out reading it, I thought it was a beautiful depiction of how God helps us when we're first starting out by providing us lots of "outs" and guarding our way. It's just these few instances that I've run into that have really bothered me.

[cklewis]

Wanna come back to this. Lots to say.

C

[Katherine]

I've been seeing this theme everywhere lately. Tonight my boys watched a movie, and one of the previews was "The Three Trees."

I'm start with the disclaimer that I've never seen the movie, but judging from the trailer, it's a story about 3 trees whose hopes and dreams are dashed so that their "true destinies" can be revealed. I'm guessing that the trees wanted to be grand and glorious *as trees* but they got chopped down and turned into other things like the manger for baby Jesus and so on. :shrug (just a guess based on the preview). I've seen it before, but tonight I thought.... :scratch why do we think that God has to destroy us before we can be loved and useful? :/

Wanna come back to this. Lots to say.

oh, goodie! :mrgreen Let's see... do I want popcorn :popcorn or a cookie :cookie :cup ? :think

Hmmmm, ME WANT COOOO-KEY! :mrgreen

Off to prepare my snack for Dr. Lewis's lecture. :grin

[kwisie]

I'm interested, too! :popcorn (The cookie sure sounds good, though.)

[TulipMama]

This has been one of our very favorite books. I don't remember this part at all. :bheart

[RubySlippers]

I have not read "The Little Pilgrim's Progress", but I've read the original.
There were things about the original that I thought were a bit much (too many hoops for them to jump through to gain heaven), but I didn't remember the Shining One beating/scourging the pilgrims. It's either been too long since I've read or I was filtering. I have it on my bookshelf because it is a "Christian classic." :think

[Chris3jam]

why do we think that God has to destroy us before we can be loved and useful?
Because that's whate we've been taught. A broken and contrite heart. . ..Psalm 51. . .etc. :(

[cklewis]

why do we think that God has to destroy us before we can be loved and useful?
Because that's whate we've been taught. A broken and contrite heart. . ..Psalm 51. . .etc. :(


But that's Gnosticism. Saying that the human body itself is evil and needs to be destroyed. :no That's not it at all.

Paula, I'd frame it as the "Myth of Redemptive Violence." Forgive me as I do a little cut & paste work here. But I think it fits. . . .

There's a myth in our culture at large that evil must proceed good, chaos precedes order, etc. Walter Wink identifies it in Gnosticism or a “Spiritualist Worldview.” In this perspective, because all things spiritual are good and all things material are bad, the present world incarcerates spirits from their free, purely spiritual existence. Religion’s goal, then, is to liberate the spirit from the flesh. Gnosticism, Manichaeism, and Neo-Platonism all have roots in this spiritualist point of view. The spiritualist worldview is in those religions “that place all the emphasis on getting to heaven when one leaves this ‘vale of tears.’” The spiritualist prays not for health or for progress, but only for release “from the cloying garment of flesh and restoration to the spiritual world of the Beyond.” Denying pleasure in all forms is typical as is an emphasis on citizenship in Heaven as superior to good citizenry on Earth.

Wink describes "The Myth of Redemptive Violence" -- a story that “enshrines the belief that violence saves, that war brings peace, that might makes right.” The myth’s power, according to Wink, is in its transparency. It seems to be natural, unavoidable, sacred, and complete. Its origin is in the Babylonian story of Tiamat and Marduk. Creation itself is brutal, order comes from disorder, and evil anticipates good. Violence is unquestioned, “a primordial fact.” The consequences are plain. Humanity is birthed from blood. Murder is our raison d’etre. “Humanity is not the originator of evil, but merely finds evil already present and perpetuates it. Our origins are divine, to be sure, since we are made from a god, but from the blood of an assassinated god. We are the outcomes of deicide.”

Because violence is inevitable and genetic, peace is impossible. Order can only come from the top-down. First-time obedience is the noblest practice, and maintaining order is religion’s highest virtue. “The tasks of humanity are to till the soil, to produce foods for sacrifice to the gods (represented by the king and the priestly caste), to build the sacred city of Babylon, and to fight, and, if necessary, die in the king’s wars.”

So in the Myth of Redemptive Violence, brutality is the means of maintaining order. Wink even calls it the “original religion of the status quo.” To be pious, in other words, we must be violent. Conquering is the highest value. Might makes right. Religion must reinforce hierarchies. “Peace through war; security through strength: these are the core convictions that arise from this ancient historical religion, and they form the solid bedrock on which the Domination System is founded in every society.”

Even in the innocuous and ever-present cartoons, video games, and comic books, Wink finds the same story: the hero is indefatigable. He “suffers grievously and appears hopelessly doomed, until, miraculously, the hero breaks free, vanquishes the villain, and restores order until the next episode.” And a certain fulfillment in projecting those repressed emotions onto the story’s antagonist keeps us coming back for more. “The villain’s punishment provides catharsis; one forswears the villain’s ways and heaps condemnation on him in a guilt-free orgy of aggression. Salvation is found through identification with the hero.” Violence becomes satisfying, compelling, and amusing.

Wink puts this as diametrically opposed to the Bible. In our creation story, everything started as good! And then was fallen by our own choices. Life does not come after death, but procedes it!

All in all, and this speaks to several threads we've got going on right now, to see our brokenness as necessary for salvation is Gnosticism (since it sees the body as a hindrance to salvation), paganism (since it requires violence for purity), and heresy (since it takes away from Christ's redemptive work). To be even briefer, that's not Bible!

More in a sec. . . .

C

[Katherine]

:eyebrow :jawdrop Camille... wow... just... WOW!

I need to read him eventually, but my brain starts smoking just from trying to digest the little bits you've posted here. (If I tried to read the whole book right now, my head would probably explode) :shifty :O :giggle

Seriously.. every sentence just made my mouth hang open even farther. He NAILS it, doesn't he?!

[cklewis]

He NAILS it, doesn't he?!


:yes He so nails it. . . . It's The Powers that Be, and honestly it's not THAT mind-numbing. It's written for a large audience, but I was trying to smooch it down so it sounds worse than it is. :blush

Compiling Bunyan here. . . .

C

[mom2_AthruZ]

Coming back to read this when the children are occupied. :popcorn

[cklewis]

Okay. John Bunyan.

Historians are obsessed with him. :) The big name is Sacvan Bercovitch (and that *is* a mouthful), and his book The American Jeremiad.

To Sacvan Bercovitch, the American Jeremiad (Samuel Danforth and John Winthrop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Winthrop)) is fundamentally different from the so-called European Jeremiad (Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress) since the former is corrective and progressive. While both cling to Scripture in order to censure sins, the American Jeremiad, according to Bercovitch, tends toward personal responsibility and reform (rather than purification and punishment).

Bercovitch posits Bunyan’s Christian as the European contrast to the American Jeremiah. Christian’s end, however, is nihilistic, selfish, unstable, and hopeless (25). In other words, Christian becomes so separated that any ties to community are broken. He seems a deviant and his faith a crazed fixation. To Bercovitch, then, Christian’s separatist faith isolates him and is eventually ineffective. As representative of the American Jeremiad, Danforth’s Errand, on the other hand, reinforces community ties. Since Danforth “denied the contradiction between history and rhetoric” and created a fruitful myth, this Jeremiad binds the early settlers and their descendents together.

Look at this comparison. I think it's REALLY interesting, especially through the lens of GBD:

The European Jeremiad (7) (Bunyan)
* pointed out civic sins
* used biblical texts
* had little hope for change
Pilgrim's Progress specifically:
* “leads Christian into what anthropologists call a ‘liminal state,’ a sort of cultural no-man’s land, where all social norms are challenged.” (25)
* “fraught with all religious and economic dangers of unfettered individualism: the excesses both of antinomianism and of self-interest.” (25)

The American Jeremiad (7-8) (Danforth, Winthrop)
* peculiar people
* God’s consequences were corrective (not destructive)
* church-state was the goal
* progressive (24)
* “The Puritans’ concept of errand entailed a fusion of secular and sacred history. The purpose of their jeremiads was to direct an imperiled people of God toward the fulfillment of their destiny, to guide them individually toward salvation, and collectively toward the American city of God.” (9)
* persisted in American culture (11)

So Bunyan sounds "off" to us because it's not at all American. It *is* rather punishing, and if you stick in some Alice Miller right here, that makes even more sense. :think

Now. That's Bercovitch's POV. Maybe he's wrong. Maybe he's trying to hard to put Bunyan in a certain box, but he perceives a punishing hopelessness in him that I think many of us have perceived. . . .

C

[Wholly Mama]

Okay, trying to :think without :crazy

In reading your first post, I was chuckling to myself. I went to a Quaker college, and know about Bunyan's head-to-heads with Quaker leaders (Burrogh and Fox). Just thinking about the stark differences in this line of thinking as opposed to the pacifist beliefs of the Society of Friends. :-)

This thread could head in so many directions....

Anyway, back to the Pilgrim's Progress, I *think* I see what Bercovitch is getting at, though I'm a little rusty in my European/American puritan history. When Christian begins his journey, the first thing he does is leave his city and all his life behind and travel (mainly alone) toward heaven, seeking only his personal gain. Though P.P. does talk about how sometimes the King sends pilgrims back to do missions before they are ready to come into the Celestial City (like Evangelist - otherwise Christian would have never known that the King sent for him).

Something else to address. In P.P. the King sends out personal invitations to those who start their pilgrimage. One boy, Ignorance goes on his pilgrimage without ever having received an invitation, so he did not know the right order to go. when he gets to the gates, they ask if he has an invitation from the King, but he doesn't. That's an interesting thought - that we have to be personally invited before we can start our journey to God. I thought a general invitation had already been issued?

And another thing. I've seen this in P.P. and in some threads here. That God saves us and helps us because his love of Christ. Not because God loves us, but because Christ loves us. :scratch

[cklewis]

Anyway, back to the Pilgrim's Progress, I *think* I see what Bercovitch is getting at, though I'm a little rusty in my European/American puritan history. When Christian begins his journey, the first thing he does is leave his city and all his life behind and travel (mainly alone) toward heaven, seeking only his personal gain. Though P.P. does talk about how sometimes the King sends pilgrims back to do missions before they are ready to come into the Celestial City (like Evangelist - otherwise Christian would have never known that the King sent for him).

Hmmm. . . . Interesting. The alone part matches what Berc is saying. :scratch Interesting how getting *to* Heaven is the whole goal. More than a little Gnostic, if you ask me.

Something else to address. In P.P. the King sends out personal invitations to those who start their pilgrimage. One boy, Ignorance goes on his pilgrimage without ever having received an invitation, so he did not know the right order to go. when he gets to the gates, they ask if he has an invitation from the King, but he doesn't. That's an interesting thought - that we have to be personally invited before we can start our journey to God. I thought a general invitation had already been issued?

:grin Also *very* interesting. . . . would *anyone* set out toward God without an "invitation"? I mean, I understand the POV Bunyan is featuring, but isn't that the thing that we not-Calvinists get irritated about? And I don't think that's quite it. It's not that everyone'se trying to get to God and only some have the proper invitation. It's that wanting-to that's the invitation itself. Yes?

And another thing. I've seen this in P.P. and in some threads here. That God saves us and helps us because his love of Christ. Not because God loves us, but because Christ loves us. :scratch

"But God commendeth His love toward us." "For God so loved the world." . . . :scratch What difference does it make that God loves us or Christ loves us? :scratch Is God the big, ol' meanie in Bunyan's picture? Sounds like He may be. :scratch

C

[Wholly Mama]

"But God commendeth His love toward us." "For God so loved the world." . . . :scratch What difference does it make that God loves us or Christ loves us? :scratch Is God the big, ol' meanie in Bunyan's picture? Sounds like He may be. :scratch

C


What I see here is the correlation between God the Father being the harsh punisher, like our own fathers are. Or, vise versa. Fathers are punishers, not saviors.

I was talking with my dad about this the other night. I love talking with my dad about things like this. When I asked him about the punishment after repentance part in P.P., he said that well, the Puritans weren't very big on Grace. Then after thinking awhile he told me I could tell the boys that it's like what we do as parents - when they do something wrong, even if they feel bad about it and are sorry, they still need to get a spanking. :doh I said, "But dad, do you think that's how God parents us?" :think :think :think "I don't know" he whispers in response. :shifty

[cklewis]

Wow, Amy. Sigh. . . . so sad. This all makes me wanna cry. What a horrible, twisted perversion of the Gospel Satan has created.

C