a question for those who use to be punitive

[euromom]

Where does the idea of "breaking a child's will but not there spirit" come from? :shrug I have been pondering this a lot lately because it really bothers me that people think this way and I am wondering WHERE IN THE WORLD IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY SUCH A THING??? I mean, I know it DOESN"T, but where do other people get this idea from (I am thinking that somehow they think it *is* Biblical???) I know my thinking is that God gave us a free will and why in the world would I want to break that and have a weak willed child who can't stand on his own when he grows up. And how is it that you break their will but not their spirit? To me it's just so connected, seems they would be breaking their child's spirit too, just not wanting to admit it? :shrug Anyways, it's just been bugging me as to where this idea came from and how they think they can back it up with Scripture. Anyone know?

[beccafromlalaland]

I personally think it comes from animal training.

[ArmsOfLove]

:popcorn

It's definitely a good question! Scripture and the Hebraic mind connect the mind, will and emotions in the "heart". So, in a sense, breaking their will is about breaking their heart :( And this actually makes sense :think because punishments are about controlling the child's will, thoughts, and feelings :think

[mamaKristin]

:popcorn

I've never understood this either.

[Katherine]

I don't know how/when it started, but I honestly think it's just a blithe little catch-phrase that *sounds* good (to the punitive mindset) but doesn't really make any sense when you stop to think about it. It is used when teaching is clearly aimed at doing damage to a child's person in order to create the illusion of some sort of special "loophole" that justifies what's being done. Yes, we're advocating harsh treatment, but it's to break the "bad" part of her, not the "good" part. :rolleyes :sick

There isn't any part of our children we should be seeking to "break." That is contrary to the idea of raising them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

Those who would say we should be trying to break their sin nature are stepping into the shoes of God. That is not our place, and we do not have the power to "break" our own sin, or anyone else's. :no2 The purpose of the rod of Proverbs was to impart wisdom--which is the theme of that book, not to break any part of a person's being.

Isn't it dumb that people spend years breaking their children's WILL, while simultaneously teaching those children to excercise their "free WILL" by choosing God?

The ironic thing is that parents who believe in breaking the will are usually asking their child to exert GREAT force of will by obeying instantly, delaying gratification, denying his own desires when they conflict with Mom and Dad's instructions, etc. I would say that many parents require more "will-power" from their children than they do from themselves.

And the sad thing is that parents who try to break their child's "will" ARE in actuality, damaging that spirit which they say they want to preserve. :cry

[Chris3jam]

It comes from God's own "example" in dealing with us. That's what we are taught, anyway. God "breaks our will to mold it to His" only when "our will is broken" can we be doing "God's will". It comes down to the sinful nature thing. That, left to our own devices (like Adam and Eve) we will *always* choose the wrong path, following our fallen natures. So, God has to "get a hold of us".

No, I see the flaws in this teaching. But. . .that is where it comes from.

[ArmsOfLove]

That, left to our own devices Chris, is it ever acknowledged that once we have Jesus we aren't left to our own devices? :shrug And that until we have Jesus nothing anyone else does changes that we're left to our own devices?

[hey mommy]

Dobson. It's in a Dobson book I have.... I don't know if there is any scripture reference to it, I just know I remember reading it in a Dobson book.. :(

[Katherine]

Yes, Chris. That's the same rationale I've always heard, too.

It hinges so much on our view of God.... that He punishes us, breaks us, manipulates us...

and our view of ourselves... that we dirty, digusting, despicable, and unworthy of being loved by Him--even after we have Christ.

Christ's redemptive work on our behalf has been subtly twisted into the idea that God loves Christ, and therefore--on Christ's behalf--He accepts and tolerates us, constantly trying to purge us of all the filth and sin and inadequacy and unworthiness that comprises the whole of who we are. :no2

(no, it's not said that bluntly, and pastors will talk about grace and how much God loves us, etc. but the messages that are implied in a legalistic atmosphere can actually carry more weight than the spoken words themselves.)

[Chris3jam]

Chris, is it ever acknowledged that once we have Jesus we aren't left to our own devices? And that until we have Jesus nothing anyone else does changes that we're left to our own devices?

Well, what is taught is that after you accept Jesus, it's like having two people inside now, battling. You have the "old man", the sinful nature, and then you have the "new man" the Holy Spirit workings. There's that verse, I think, in Romans, and others, of course, pastor uses to show this. He also asks the congregation, "Who all undestands this. . .you *want* to do right, but you don't? That's the sinful nature that we got from Adam, battling against the Holy Spirit." (and, of course, everyone can understand this). And we are taught that we aren't so much left to our own devices. .. that we have Jesus now to help us overcome that old nature. We are working for God now, not the world (the devil). We are supposed to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"- - - and that directive is a command, and it is directed to us, specifically. And we do that by listening to the Holy Spirit, and doing what God says, rather than what we would want to do, which comes from the "sin nature" and is bad. And that verse, "the heart is deceitful and wicked, who can know it" is used for "proof", too. We are to do what's Biblical. . .not listen to our heart, which is the sinful flesh, which will direct us in our own selfish desires.

[euromom]

We are supposed to "put off the old man" and "put on the new man"- - - and that directive is a command, and it is directed to us, specifically. And we do that by listening to the Holy Spirit, and doing what God says, rather than what we would want to do, which comes from the "sin nature" and is bad. And that verse, "the heart is deceitful and wicked, who can know it" is used for "proof", too. We are to do what's Biblical. . .not listen to our heart, which is the sinful flesh, which will direct us in our own selfish desires.


But if we as adults are commanded to just listen to the H.S. and do what God says vs. our "flesh", why is it that people think the only way a child can 'let go' of that sin nature is by punishing them for it? or hitting them physically??? :( That just seems so messed up to me.


The ironic thing is that parents who believe in breaking the will are usually asking their child to exert GREAT force of will by obeying instantly, delaying gratification, denying his own desires when they conflict with Mom and Dad's instructions, etc. I would say that many parents require more "will-power" from their children than they do from themselves.


Wow, great point palil. Very ironic indeed!

[Chris3jam]

why is it that people think the only way a child can 'let go' of that sin nature is by punishing them for it? or hitting them physically???

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking") He says that spanking has been given to us to use on the children, to keep them from the greater punishment that God would use, and to keep them from sin, like God would like to keep us from sin. No, we are all sinners, and we sin, but God doesn't want us to, and we get the consequences for that, one of which is spanking (or the physical punishment that God gives). He cites all kinds of places in the OT and NT to back this up (like the one where "Some of you fall asleep" in Romans? I don't remember). I'm just able to tell you bits and pieces of his sermons. . I bet I'll be here right quick tomorrow again. . .. pastor is doing his family series. .. it'll be fresher. ...

[ArmsOfLove]

So, let me get this straight :think

according to your pastor, Chris, the "Good News" of the Gospel is this:

we were created to be perfect but after the Fall we were conceived in sin and born filthy and dirty and wretched and we think life is fun but it's going to mean we spend eternity in the fiery pits of hell (sort of paying for the fun we think we're having here). To *fix* this Jesus died on the cross, he loves us too much to make us suffer for eternity, and this is grace. BUT even though we won't suffer for eternity for our sins (the fun we have now--so fun is evil) we are now children of God and God spanks his children so we are supposed to get ourselves under control and change our lives and where sin is all the fun stuff, holy living is all the un-fun stuff and part of being a Christian is learning how to enjoy the un-fun stuff so if you're not having fun doing un-fun stuff, or if you "sin" by having fun doing stuff you did before you were a Christian, or if God isn't spanking you, you might not really be saved and then you won't really have grace which means that you really will go to hell.

Which makes our parenting goal to raise children who have fun doing the un-fun Christian stuff so that they won't have as much of a struggle as we do to fit into God's demands on us (demands he makes as our part of the deal when he's willing to give us grace and not make us spend enternity in hell even though we really deserve it).

[BlessedBlue]

:popcorn

[Chris3jam]

Kind of. In a way. Sort of. Mostly. But, he does say that serving God *should* be fun. . .and pleasant. If, of course, our hearts are right with Him and we have the same 'goals'. Serving God should never be unpleasant. We should have joy in what we are doing. When we get saved, we just naturally will cover our nakedness, we will not *want* to drink, smoke, etc. It's part of being saved. God changes you. Now, some people will struggle. . .. and people will sin (the result of the fall and sin nature), but are not to *want* to, and to confess and repent. . . .however many times it takes.

It's. . . .subtle. Well. . . let me give you a little story my friend from this church told me (she told me this in front of my kids on Wed., and this is practically verbatim - -she rode with us in the car as we went to pick up something). This is the meaning of sin, mercy and grace.

There was a little boy who was, well, being fractious. He was warned several times. . .and he just kept being "bad". So, as according to the warning, he received his spanking (what he was told the consequences would be for his continued misbehaviour). Now, the particular punishment for what he was doing was supposed to be 9 licks. His father, of course, explained, "Son I have to do this because I love you. I cannot let you keep sinning like this and disobeying." And his father measured them out evenly. But, he only gave him 8 licks. And, then, after the "re-connection", after the restoring, his daddy took him out and bought him an ice cream cone. And, while they ate the ice cream cones, his father explained. "Son, what you were doing was sinning. I could not let you keep doing that. Now, when I gave you your licks, I only gave you 8, not 9. That is called "mercy". And this ice cream? This ice cream is "unmerited favor" -- this ice cream is "grace". This is what Jesus did for us. Do you understand?" And, the boy understood.

Ok. . .just a moment. . . I need a minute. . . . :bheart :hissyfit :td :cry

Ok. Now. That pretty much accurately describes the prevailing thought process of the church as far as disciplining children - - and the way we should be disciplining our children, using the example and instruction that God has given us in the Bible. This is the way God would discipline us, and have us discipline. That is what I am getting, anyway. Dh says I'm wrong in my assumptions about this teaching (yes I should be spanking, but, apparently, my "interpretation of the sermons" is off, somehow). I can't see how. . . . .I just am not seeing how I can be "off" about the un-Biblical-ness of this thought pattern. . . . ..

Oh, and one thing pastor has said a lot. . .. God is showing America a lot of mercy. . . .America is sinning and doing wrong. . .and God is showing mercy by holding off the punishment we deserve.

ETA - - "unmerited favor" (in the story) meaning, something you do not deserve, will never deserve, never can do anything to deserve, and something you just cannot do for yourself.

[Chris3jam]

I forgot to add to my last post. . . .this is partly where my many questions come from. How can our hearts be "deceitful and wicked" and still be able to be right with God? How is 'showing' our children punishment getting them closer to understanding what God has done for them? I can only surmise that I am not bright enough to be able to "get it" and put it all together into what he means and says.

[ArmsOfLove]

How can our hearts be "deceitful and wicked" and still be able to be right with God? the answer to THAT is "Grace"! God makes our hearts right and Jesus moves into them. Jesus cannot live in chaos and if you heart were to remain full of sin and deceitful Jesus could not dwell there :no Your heart is your mind, will and emotions and that is what you need to love God with :heart

Think of this--you are SINGLE until you are MARRIED; your heart is deceitful until grace makes it clean

[RubySlippers]

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

Is your pastor saying that the chastening is all the bad things that happen to him? After suffering negative consequences or calamity, he finally came to realize how vile he was and in need of a Savior. Kinda like, God brought him to his knees? And God still does this after he is a Christian to get his attention so that he doesn't suffer worse consequences?
So is this where the idea that everything bad that happens to us is God's chastening?

[Katherine]

OH, CHris! Ick. THat is *exactly* what I grew up hearing... even the phrasing. It's like there are a bunch of mouthpieces out there spouting the same sick recorded message. :sick

This part especially:

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

made my stomach churn. We were told that all the time, too. (My husband teases me with "You'd better check your salvation if... " b/c he knows how :rolleyes :mad :( it makes me.) My sister and I were talking just yesterday about how many nights after church we went home and laid awake in bed--terrified to go to sleep b/c the preacher implied that we might not REALLY be saved. :cry I've often heard that ploy even from the pulpit.. "When you close your eyes tonight... do you know that if you died in your sleep, you'd wake up in heaven? do you KNOW?" :hissyfit Our salvation was constantly called into question, but we also supposed to be absolutely, unquestionably sure of it (blessed assurance, don't you know!), and if we weren't TOTALLY SURE then that was a sign we ought to question it, too. :banghead

This kind of stuff is spiritual abuse--plain and simple. I know the men who stand in the pulpit don't think of it that way, but they're just functioning as clones of whatever school of thought they came from... trying so hard to persuade and change the hearts of men themselves that they push God's real children into a state of fear and insecurity and self-deprecation. It makes me sad... and angry. That is not shepherding--it is fear-mongering.

Off topic rant over... :shifty :(

[cklewis]

I hope someone asks me if God has ever spanked me! :mad 'Cause I'll tell 'em.

I thought the will/spirit came from Dobson. Er . . . that's where I heard it first in those movies. :rolleyes

C

[euromom]

So where does Dobson get this idea from? What is his reasoning behind it?

[cklewis]

i've heard it in old, old stuff. like puritan sermons. :/

c

[2inHeaven2inMontana]

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.
This has been my 10 month struggle now...was it God? or not? If it was, I wouldn't want to serve such a mean God...so I have to believe that Satan is the one who "kills steals, & destroys" not God. And if Satan is the "killer, stealer, & destroyer" then God isn't and he is a loving God who doesn't spank us. Just what I've been working through...

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

I wonder if this pastor would take comfort in God's so called chastening if one of his children died??? I don't think so!!

[cklewis]

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.
This has been my 10 month struggle now...was it God? or not? If it was, I wouldn't want to serve such a mean God...so I have to believe that Satan is the one who "kills steals, & destroys" not God. And if Satan is the "killer, stealer, & destroyer" then God isn't and he is a loving God who doesn't spank us. Just what I've been working through...

Because that is what God does with us (we are taught). Again, pastor will ask for a raising of hands when he asks, "I know I have been spanked by God. . . who here has been? That's what I thought. . .just about everyone, you bunch of sinners [said humorously; and everyone giggles]. And let me tell you, if you have not been, you may need to really look at your life and make sure you even are a child of God, because God chastens those whom are his children. I take great comfort in His chastening. . .he's getting me back on the right path, and it means I am His child." (of course, "chasten" is "spanking")

I wonder if this pastor would take comfort in God's so called chastening if one of his children died??? I don't think so!!



You're right, Kristie! You're exactly right. And I say that over and over and over.

After our Elise was born (still), my DH's boss (whose little girl died when she was two) told us, "Don't listen to people who tell you that this is God punishing you. They are incorrect. It's not. If it were God punishing you, you'd KNOW it for sure." I *think* that was his way of saying that God uses consequences that are logical and not willy-nilly.

But God didn't kill our babies. I know He didn't. :hug

C

[kwisie]

This is bringing up so many memories from when I was growing up. I've heard all these exact things preached - using the exact same words, no less!!! No wonder I have had to really work on being able to trust God, if that's the view I was taught by spiritual leaders. :hissyfit

I'm so glad it seems that these trends are changing. So very glad.

[Chris3jam]

If God did "spank" us then we could blame every awful thing that happened to us on him...like my baby died, and when religious people insinuate it was "God" who made him die...I feel like hating God. So no wonder people who get trained this way, when something really tragic happens to them, they turn from God because they've been taught that God "spanks" us.

Well, he preaches also that not everything bad that happens is sent by God to punish us. And he does use the word "consequences". All things work to the glory of God, but sometimes things just happen because of the fallen world we live in. But, we are supposed to search our hearts and see if there is a sin we are hiding or not confessing when those bad things happen, to decide whether or not it is a punishment or just something that happened. But, I do tend to think that everything bad that happens is a punishment. That I've done something bad and am reaping the consequences of some action. For instance, I believe that God is "letting me reap the consequences" of my actions by giving me MS. I've not taken care of myself the way I should. I believe that God will not take it away until I figure out what it is I'm doing wrong and change it. I believe that I've done something wrong for God to have given me "difficult" children. We've just finished our Bible study, and I'm shaking (with self-control. .. . I wanted to just.. . . well, just smack 'em and yell and scream and give up, but I stayed calm and kind - -- it takes unimaginable effort, especially day after day). I have a 10 yo who can't read and who defies me and argues every step of the way, an 8 yo with major attitude (I told him to make the bed [part of what he was supposed to do today for his Bible study] and he kicked a shoe and 'dented' the wall, because he was very unhappy at having to do it), etc. Therefore, I am reaping the consequences. If I *ever* lost a child, I *would* "blame myself". I *would* wonder what it is that I did wrong. And I would be convinced that I had done something wrong. I know that pastor has preached and does preach about unconditional love. . . ..assurance of salvation. . .. grace. .. . etc. But, why isn't *that* sinking in?

[kwisie]

:hugheart

[Katherine]

Chris,

I have similar tendencies, and I've lived my whole live in fear, waiting for the shoe to drop. Growing up, everytime one of my friends moved away (I lost my "best friend" in 3rd grade.. again in 6th grade... again in 9th grade... etc.) I believed God was trying to "get my attention" or "teach me a lesson" by taking away someone I loved, and that if I didn't "learn" my lesson, He would just keep taking away people who I loved even more--like my family. :bheart :( I am ALWAYS terrified of losing the people I love... not in the sense that I know I would grieve and such, but in the sense of dreading it--almost waiting for it to happen--like I'm being stalked or something. :banghead

My view of God is slowly, slowly changing, but it's going to take some time to undo the fear and dread that were instilled in me and the and "I'm-being-punished" glasses through which I tend to interpret things. :cry

[ArmsOfLove]

Chris--if God GAVE you MS because of not taking care of your body well enough then He isn't a loving God :no2 :cry That is mean; that is spiteful; and that is not the action of a loving God who loves us so much he died for us, and loved us while we were yet sinners. What you are saying is that unbelievers, the unrepentant, get more grace than the saved :cry

[TulipMama]

What you are saying is that unbelievers, the unrepentant, get more grace than the saved.

But isn't this how so many of us live? If we don't really believe it in our heads, we still act like we believe it in our actions.

(And, spinning off, within Christianity, don't we act as if God shows more grace to those "in the world" than the children in our families "in the covenant?)

[Somertyme]

Isn't this what the Pharisee's believed, and what Jesus refuted when he healed the blind man? In Jn. 9:3 the Pharisees say that the blind man or his parents must have sinned. Jesus basically tells them that that is not how it works. Throughout history (Biblical and other) there are numerous examples of "good" people who have terrible things happen to them, and "wicked" people who are just living lives of ease & comfort. We simply can't go through life assuming that the bad things are punishment. If this were the case, the "bad" people would be having a lot more tragedies, and the truely "godly" Christians would have easy lives.

[Chris3jam]

Chris--if God GAVE you MS because of not taking care of your body well enough then He isn't a loving God

He didn't give it to me. . . .he allowed me to get it. I've gone through all kinds of eating disorders (I had some sort of eating disorder from the time I was a teen until I was in my upper twenties) and all kinds of other stuff.. . .put stuff in my body that was not good for it (never drugs or anything, but alcohol and food that wasn't the best). And He's allowed me to suffer the consequences of this. I can see, now, that a lot of stuff out there today causes problems (white sugar, white flour, etc.,etc.), and, yet, even knowing that, all that I know, 10+ years of nutritional study, I *still* screw up and am weak about eating stuff that I know I shouldn't. I really don't think He has a whole lot of pity on me (I wouldn't). . . .me, that *knows* better, that *still* does stuff that's bad for her. :( I guess I'm rebelling (in a way), and I'm paying for that. I remember having an incredibly stupid, immature "fit" (in my mind) more than once, about, "Well, I'm going to eat it anyway! So many people eat this without a problem! I should be able to, too!" :blush

[ArmsOfLove]

Chris, Dear Sister, what did you do in your past that you can't forgive yourself for? :hugheart :cry