vent *why can't women be the experts???

[glassangel]

This is really probably not worth posting about ... but

A year or so ago friends of ours that were pregnant were at our place and the Dh picks up Biblical Parenting and says something along the lines of 'I couldn't read that book with that author" (nevertheless they got into BW - despite a lot of conversations with her and lending of books)

Two things - Crystal is a woman & a pastor :banghead :banghead :banghead

Not on the topic of women pastors...but women as experts on child rearing???

WHY AREN'T women the experts on everything children????

Instead let's just discount (or not even consider) something a woman says because they are emotional creatures and are led by their fleeting emotions... :mad


To me the fact that most Christian parenting books are written by men just makes me roll my eyes...and :hissyfit ...I dunno why but women follow the teaching of men about parenting (about breastfeeding :hunh) because they are male and 'better' or more in authority - or something

I know when I had DS I learnt something that I never knew and that was how my own baby's cries made me respond in a way I'd never known - I have had a lot to do with other babies and their crying didn't 'bother' me - but I learnt as soon as I had DS that there is a God-given difference in response to your own baby's cry. Does my DH understand this? Not unless I talk to him about it and even then he doesn't experience the same thing...yes they do have their own attachments and the father child relationship is important - but a MAN telling women about the MOTHER child relationship - just doesn't make sense.... :hissyfit

Okay I am over it now... :O

[Heather Micaela]

You're right - it makes no sense. Especially when the Bible tells the older women to teach the younger women.

[TulipMama]

Related to that, I recommend this article for some mommy-inspiration:
http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/womantowoman.html

[CelticJourney]

Instead let's just discount (or not even consider) something a woman says because they are emotional creatures and are led by their fleeting emotions...

What a gem his wife found! :laughtears Kinda reminds me of a episode of West Wing when one character finds out his 'wife' (long story), who is pregnant with twins is on Air Force One with him. As part of his little 'daddy fit' about all his concerns, he says "how can you fit in a seat, you're the size of a mini-van." At this point everyone stops what they are doing and stares and the 'wife' says "oh, no, ladies, I saw him first." with dripping sarcasm of course.

He is wrong, and I would say 'ill-informed' but I suspect it lines up with is own bias and information is not an issue. It's very telling that he would pick up a book in your home and bash it to you - not high on sensitivity is he? So other than some prayers for his wife and children, I would just consider the source.

[glassangel]

:yes
He is a very traditional husband and her very submissive wife - funny too because they are very young. He didn't actually say that about women - but it was the intent, kwim?

Thanks heaps for that article :tu - who is the author? Has she written any books or was this more like a blog?

A great read - I wish I could give it to every woman I know!!!

[Myrtle]

For Her Own Good: 150 Years of the Experts' Advice to Women
http://www.amazon.com/Her-Own-Good-Experts-Advice/dp/0385126514

I've been reading this, and it'd just amaze you how women were forced to give up their expertise.

[Titus2Momof4]

Well, I'll be totally honest here--I'm not 100% sure how I feel about female pastors. And, in our search for a more local church, I have rejected a couple that had female pastors. It's also not something I've very thoroughly researched either, but is kinda "the way I was brought up", so I don't tend to flock to churches w/female pastors.

That being said... I tend to "forget" that Crystal is a pastor. I never really remember it until it gets brought up (like this thread). Instead, I think of her as an author, and greatly value what she has to say as a disciplinarian/child expert. Nevermind whether she's a pastor or not :shrug I still appreciate what she has to say about kids and discipline. Frankly, it doesn't really matter. When I come here asking for questions about discipline and my kids, I'm not thinking "ohhhh now she's a female pastor, ignore her" :rolleyes I'm thinking "ok here's a good point, that's a good idea, I'm glad to hear that my kids are normal :giggle"

[glassangel]

Well, I'll be totally honest here--I'm not 100% sure how I feel about female pastors. And, in our search for a more local church, I have rejected a couple that had female pastors. It's also not something I've very thoroughly researched either, but is kinda "the way I was brought up", so I don't tend to flock to churches w/female pastors.

That being said... I tend to "forget" that Crystal is a pastor. I never really remember it until it gets brought up (like this thread). Instead, I think of her as an author, and greatly value what she has to say as a disciplinarian/child expert. Nevermind whether she's a pastor or not :shrug I still appreciate what she has to say about kids and discipline. Frankly, it doesn't really matter. When I come here asking for questions about discipline and my kids, I'm not thinking "ohhhh now she's a female pastor, ignore her" :rolleyes I'm thinking "ok here's a good point, that's a good idea, I'm glad to hear that my kids are normal :giggle"


Yeah - I hear you - it's not the issue of women pastors - it's that women are overlooked as the experts in the field of parenting, mothering....or just aren't -I know a lot more authors on parenting (in Christian circles - particularly) who are male :/

That book - "For her own good" looks really interesting :yes will have to see if I can get it through the library

[Titus2Momof4]

Oh I know what you mean. And you're right, think about it: Pearl, Ezzo, Tripp, Dobson..........all men! Of course Sears is a man too :giggle But I don't think a woman should be discounted on *parenting* of all things, just because she's a woman. :rolleyes

[Beauty4Ashes]

but with Sears, it's written with a heavy dose of Martha thrown in...

[hsgbdmama]

And isn't it the Titus 2 woman who is to be teaching the younger women ... to me, that would include parenting advice. :shrug If your friend doesn't want to read Crystal's book, his wife can (based on his "definitions"). ;)

[Titus2Momof4]

but with Sears, it's written with a heavy dose of Martha thrown in...


Well I was gonna say that... but then I think pearls books have quite a bit written by Debi too? I thought anyway, I could be wrong.

[glassangel]

:yes

I find with Sears that his approach is different too - :/ would you agree?

I guess I think if men DO want to learn about parenting - esp young children - then why shouldn't they read or ask women???

[Beauty4Ashes]

True, but Michael has editting rights over what Debi writes. With the Sears, it seems like Martha's experiences are really valued, not like she's being told what to write by her dh.

[ellies mom]

I think it probably has to do with the "medicalization of childbirth". When male doctors decided they wanted to take over the tradition role of mid-wives and deliver babies, it was probably a natural progression that male doctors would then become the experts on child rearing as well. Or a theory from another topic I read recently that applies, is that in the private sphere, women perform the role, but the "public sphere" people (the experts) are men. For example, in the privacy of the home, it is typically the woman's role to cook dinner but when it is done in the public sphere then it is the man's role (chefs in restaurants, BBQing outside, etc).

I think Crystal makes a great expert. It is that guy's own feeling of inadequancy, that blinds him to that.

[CelticJourney]

Oooo Veronica - excellent points!

[glassangel]

I think it probably has to do with the "medicalization of childbirth". When male doctors decided they wanted to take over the tradition role of mid-wives and deliver babies, it was probably a natural progression that male doctors would then become the experts on child rearing as well. Or a theory from another topic I read recently that applies, is that in the private sphere, women perform the role, but the "public sphere" people (the experts) are men. For example, in the privacy of the home, it is typically the woman's role to cook dinner but when it is done in the public sphere then it is the man's role (chefs in restaurants, BBQing outside, etc).

I think Crystal makes a great expert. It is that guy's own feeling of inadequancy, that blinds him to that.


About the bit I bolded -- Why is that??? I haven't thought about that before? Interesting :think

But he isn't the only male or female even that thinks like that though is he? I don't mean about Crystal's book - that was just an example - but even women seem to look to men - in the parenting realm? Do you think?

[ellies mom]

Well, if you look at childbirth and nursing, those are both prime examples of how completely they've been wrested from the original experts. At one time, a woman could learn to nurse from her mother or another female would show them how. After 3-4 generations of "science trumps nature formula feeding", we have almost completely lost that "tribal knowledge" (to describe the idea of knowledge being passed down one generation to the next), so a lot of women don't have anyone to show them. The whole doula thing actually started in the early 80's in a response to the lost of "childbirth as natural" knowledge. After years of men running the childbirth show, there wasn't enough of that "tribal knowledge" left to help women that wanted a different type childbirth experience, so they had to create a profession to bring that back. So in my long-winded way, I'm trying to say that people have simply forgotten that women really can be experts in these things because they just haven't seen anything different. I really think that is changing though. I do think that women are slowly starting to realized that this was "our realm" at one time and it can be again. My mom breastfed us. My sister, SIL and I breastfed our children, so by the time DD has children she will have two generations of that knowledge to draw on. That is a good start. It will get better.

[glassangel]

:yes :yes

I was exposed to a lot of BF growing up because I was SO taken with babies and spent heaps of time from a young girl about 10 with twin cousins, and then other family friends being BF.

When it came to BFing DS I didn't get any advice - I just did it :shrug - when talking to the midwife (we were in an indigenous area) she commented how the Yolngu women didn't ever need instruction in BF, and how I seemed to take it in my stride - and I said that I had been exposed to a lot of BF in my life...which is why I think the Yolgnu women had no issues.

NIP has got to help this - surely??

(Funnily I had a male midwife who was going to show me how to BF and I was like NO WAY I don't think so :rolleyes2)

[ellies mom]

NIP has got to help this - surely??



I think it must. I'm doing a term paper on breastfeeding. In one of the books I'm reading (written 10 years ago) , the author, a college professor, was amazed that a girl in one of her classes was horrified to discover that "women's breasts are like udders", the idea that a person could make it to college and be completely unaware that breasts had a purpose for something other than being ogled at by men. With NIP becoming more common, I think it raises the awareness of breastfeeding. So a young woman is at least seeing it and seeing it helps to normalize it.

An example of how we get hurt by not having cultural experience (IMO) is as simple as not having someone tell a new mom that nursing at first is difficult and it can hurt even if you are doing it right but it really truely does get better. My mom didn't so much show me how to breastfeed but she reassured me that it would get better and to just give it three weeks. I understand why La Leche League says breastfeeding doesn't hurt if it is done right, but to a new mom who doesn't have anyone to tell them differently, that normal "toughening the girl's up" pain tells them that they are doing it wrong and therefore must not be able to breastfeed. I've always wondered how many new moms give up for this reason.

[glassangel]

I can't believe a woman didn't know that breasts produced milk :hunh

I agree about cultural experience - my friend - who was the one who informed me that BFing could hurt was totally unaware until she had her baby...and then was on a mission to let other pre-mum's know :tu

A lot about child birth is like that too I reckon - another friend of mine didn't realise she would bleed after giving birth. Although I do think women are being better educated in this regard.

And parenting -- more awareness about what a baby is like -- that they will need feeding every two hours, that you will get tired etc etc

I think LLL and the Australian equivalent ABA are doing a good job at trying to educate women.

I know my Mum's generation was poorly informed and treated as though they had no knowledge and needed the 'experts'. My mum was left alone to birth my brother - (until the actual birth) - he was then whisked away and brought back every 4 hours for a feed and overnight not brought in at all (the babies were bottle-fed but not sure what was in the bottle). Then she was sent home with a baby...oh and she had inverted nipples and was sent home without the nipple shield she had been using and the one she got from the chemist was different...and after about 6weeks was depressed, had a screaming baby and told by the health clinic to feed her baby evaporated milk. She, in looking back, is convinced she had PPD but never diagnosed -- too which my comment was - well it is NO wonder :banghead

So in my own birth experience Mum wasn't all that 'helpful' - but I think it was good for her to come to the birth and be around me as I mothered my baby...(my dad marvelled at our Amby Hammock - wishing he'd had one with Matthew as he would swing the heavy bassinette in both arms in an attempt to settle him!!)...she talked A LOT at that time about her mothering experience especially with Matthew.

Anyway my point is that her generation didn't really have the tools to pass down to us...so in away we (I) have to educate myself.

[Beauty4Ashes]

I had seen a couple of women in church (okay, maybe one) who nursed her baby, so I *knew* that breasts make milk. But I also remember working in toys r us and seeing women buying case after case of this expensive formula stuff. I was maybe 18-19 and thought, why don't they just buy regular milk? It's so much cheaper!!! When I moved to NY, there were tons of women on the hospital campus who were breast feeding or having babies or pregnant, so I learned a little bit. I did however go to the breastfeeding classes at the hospital. It was there that I heard about the benefits of bf a baby. Plus, I'd heard over and over how my mil nursed dh for 2.5 years. My point is that I grew up so sheltered, not a lot of babies around me period. Some of the kids in the nursery were curious as to what I was doing with ds2 when I was nursing him. I don't think that they'd even seen bf'ing.

[ellies mom]

Anyway my point is that her generation didn't really have the tools to pass down to us...so in away we (I) have to educate myself.


That is it exactly. They didn't have the tools because their mom's didn't have the tools. There is a huge cultural gap that is just starting to be bridged. But as we educate ourselves, we will have those tools to pass to our child.

By the way, letting new mom's know that BFing will hurt at first is my personal mission and the other is that BF baby poop doesn't look like the pictures, but it is still OK. That was the other thing I was horrified that no one told us.