Training our Daughters to become keepers at home

[phathui5]

Does anyone use this?

I bought the CD for myself to go through (dd is only two) and I'll probably go through it with dd when she's older.

[DebraBaker]

Who puts it out?

It sounds rather limiting from two directions.

One, shouldn't the daughter's interests direct her vocation?

And why not train our sons to be keepers at home as well? :scratch :shrug

[Myrtle]

Who puts it out?

It sounds rather limiting from two directions.

One, shouldn't the daughter's interests direct her vocation?

And why not train our sons to be keepers at home as well? :scratch :shrug


No help here, since I'm not familiar with the cd, but I do understand these objections coming to mind. I'd say, though, that unless it's really hard-core stay-at-home-or-you're-not-a-real-woman kind of stuff, it could still be really neat. I intend to train my daughter and my son to be keepers at home, even if they do have other vocations. I want them to value their homes and families in a special way regardless of what else they do in life.

[Garnet]

I hope my daughter will learn the things she needs to know to keep her own home as she grows. I'm certainly not going to push it on her, I;d rather she get good grades and go to college.

[AngelBee]

I just got the book :grin

I looks really interesting. I did not know there was a CD.

[phathui5]

The CD is the book on CD.

It's basically a seven years worth of Bible and Home Ec.

Having gotten married and staying home with my kids, I feel like I was allowed to make it to adulthood totally unprepared for being a household manager. The whole focus when I was growing up was on schoolwork and college. I'm not against going to college and having a career outside of the home, but I could have used some balance.

Here's the description from Rainbow Resource:
An ambitious seven-year program with day-by-day lesson plans to help prepare young ladies for the challenging task of managing their own homes. Considering the multitude of skills needed and diversity of jobs which are part of good home management, it is a formidable undertaking. This 601-page course incorporates both practical training in these skills and in developing Godly character through Scriptural study to enable girls to serve God as keepers at home (whether single or married). The program is meant to be used about 90 minutes per day, five days a week, during a 36-week school year. It’s not as much work as it sounds, though, since much of the course work is actual practice of the skills, not book-work. Courses include:
Cooking
Godly Womanhood
Sewing
Caring for the Sick/Injured
Gardening
Childbearing/Breastfeeding
Braiding Rugs
Child Development
Hospitality
Making a House a Home
Child Training
Flower Arranging
Knitting
Family Finances
Crocheting
Making Greeting Cards
Embroidery
Caring for Elderly
Raising Animals
Comfort
Grieving
Cross-stitch
Family Celebrations
Basketry
Soapmaking/Candlemaking
Home Business
Complete instructions are included for some areas (including directions for 23 projects), but some also require the use of outside resources (about 7 per year, as listed in the curriculum). Most of these can be borrowed from the library, but you may want to purchase some as a kind of “starter” for your daughter’s own home library. Currently offered both as a hardcover book, and in a more economical format on CD.

[Rabbit]

There's bound to be tons of great information in the material, but it seems a bit 50's style nutty. While I was left really unprepared for adulthood, dropped off at college without a clue how to write a check or use a vacuum cleaner, I don't think I'll ever need candle or soap making, except as a hobby. Same with crochet, cross-stitch, braiding rugs, and basket weaving. I am living on the frontier. But it's phenomenal to introduce all of those skills to a child. She might rock at them, and love it, even if her house never really -needs- these skills to run smoothly.

-Natalie

[ArmsOfLove]

having courses in braiding rugs made me :giggle It's actually something I wish I knew how to do but can't imagine a 90 minute course on it :shifty

and the "child training" made me cringe :neutral I can almost peg what that will entail.

But a lot of that is stuff I enjoy and wish I'd known how to do. My concern would be anyone who puts together such a comprehensive program would have an agenda and be pushing it and 7 years sounds like indoctrination. I would almost use it for myself and then model and teach in my own style with my dd. But I think it sounds interesting and I'd love to hear how you enjoy it :)

[Punkie]

I've never heard of this curriculum, but the idea behind teaching our children these skills is one that I highly support :)

You may also enjoy Sally Clarkson's The Mission of Motherhood. She has a section devoted to training our children (both male and female) in keeping house, hospitality, finances, cooking, gardening, comfort, caring for the elderly, making a house home, and much more. She talks about how not only will her daughters be prepared, but her sons will as well :) It may be a nice supplement to your current reading. I really enjoyed it!

[mommyTay]

and the "child training" made me cringe I can almost peg what that will entail.

hmm, I have the book in front of me and see nothing in the index about "child training". :shrug The closest thing I can find is "Child Care". Can I quote the first paragraph of the chapter?

"Caring for small children is not only enjoyable but can also be educational to a girl in many ways. Caring for children prepares a girl for being a mother, a Sunjday School teacher, or even a futre Keepers at Home leader!
'I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.' 1 Timothy 5:14"

It then goes on to tell you "Helpful Tips for Being a Good Babysitter".

I also have the "Contenders for the Faith" book which is for the boys. It also has an incredible list of skills, all of which in both books would be both fun and beneficial for any child no matter what their future goals. :tu

My concern would be anyone who puts together such a comprehensive program would have an agenda and be pushing it and 7 years sounds like indoctrination.
The way I am understanding the intro :read and few lessons we have looked at, it is more meant to be a family bonding experience, rather than "indoctrination". There isn't a time table, its a good basis of useful and fun skills that many people tend to overlook while pushing for today society goals.

[SouthPaw]

it actually sounds fun and useful to me... although if DD really didn't enjoy a particular skill like rug braiding, i don't think i would push it.... i liked cross-stitching, weaving, raising veggies, and animals as a kid but didn't like crochet... i would probably gie DD say on stuff like that

i think it is really important to practice practical skills like planning a menu for a week, shopping, and executing it (cooking).... all this stuff i am learning now for the first time.... :phew it isn't really something that just comes naturally and i want my DD to be prepared for taking care of herself as well as a family instead of eating ramen or taco bell every day b/c she doesn't know how to shop :giggle

[DebraBaker]

Why do the guys get to contend for the faith while their sisters learn how to wash their socks and shorts?

It sounds like all the XX's are relegated to being Martha whilst all the XY's get the Mary role.

Doesn't sound fair to me.

:shrug And no one spilled, who puts this material out.

[Punkie]

http://www.keepersofthefaith.com/Catalog/Keepers_Books_89.asp#2332

[Punkie]

This is the boys' material:

BIBLICAL MANHOOD 16

Bible Memory 17
Bible Reading 20
Personal Journal 24
Prayer Warrior 25
Proverbs Study for Boys 27

FIELD AND FOREST 42

Archery 43
Birds 48
Butterflies 51
Camping 55
Ecology 60
Horses 63
Insects 66
Outdoor Life 71
Plants 76
Pocketknife 82
Trees 84
Wildlife 88

KNOWLEDGE AND SKILLS 93

Astronomy 94
Chess 99
Computers 102
Drawing .106
Electricity 110
Finances 115
Fire Safety 118
First Aid 121
Foreign Language 123
Gardening 125
Genealogy 132
Health and Fitness 136
Home Care 141
Hygiene 144
Kites 148
Knots 155
Leatherworking 167
Models .174
Oil Painting 178
Pets 182
Photography 185
Poetry 188
Rocketry 192
Rocks and Minerals 198
Sign Language 203
Small Engine Repair 205
Stamp Collecting 208
Tools 212
Typing 224
Watercolors 226
Weather 228
Woodburning 233
Woodcarving 236
Woodworking 243

LEADERSHIP 247

Biography 248
Library 254
Literature 257
Music 260
Organization 264
Propriety 265
Public Speaking 267
Scheduling 269
Scholarship 274
Stewardship 277
Storytelling 282
Teaching 284
Writing 286

OTHERS 291

Bus Worker 292
Church 294
Family 297
Friends 303
Grandparents 307
Great Commission 310
Letters 311
Love 315
Missionary 320
Neighbor 322
Others 325
Rest Home 327
Special Needs 329
Widows 333

RECREATIONAL ACTIVITIES 335

Badminton 336
Bicycle 338
Croquet 342
Fishing 344
Golf 347
Hiking 350
Ice Skating 354
Swimming 357
Table Tennis 356
Tennis 357
Volleyball 359


and the full girls' list

General Information

Purpose, Goal, Verse, Prayer 12
Keepers at Home Theme Song 13
Achievement Awards 14
Biblical Girlhood 16
Bible Memory 17
Bible Reading 20
Personal Journal 24
Prayer Warrior 25

Creative Skills 27

Basketweaving 29
Calligraphy 33
Candlemaking 36
Candlewicking .43
Ceramics 47
Counted Cross Stitch .49
Crewel Embroidery 53
Crochet 56
Decoupage 58
Dollmaking 60
Drawing 63
Embossing 67
Embroidery 71
Flower Arrangement 75
Knitting 78
Latch Hooking 82
Macrame 84
Miniatures 91
Needlepoint 92
Oil Painting 96
Photography 100
Plastic Canvas 103
Pressed Flowers 106
Quilling 110
Quilting 115
Rubber Stamping 120
Scrapbooking 124
Spinning 127
Stenciling 130
Tatting 133
Tole Painting 136
Watercolors 140
Weaving 142
Homemaking 147
Baking 148
Budgeting 150
Cake Decorating 153
Camping 155
Cleaning 157
Cooking 160
Fire Safety 166
First Aid 169
Food Preservation 171
Gardening 175
Health and Fitness 182
Home Decorating 187
Hygiene 189
Ironing 193
Laundry 194
Organization 196
Proverbs 31 Study for Girls 199
Scheduling 209
Sewing 214
Soapmaking 216
Knowledge and Skills 220
Biography 221
Computer. 227
Foreign Language 230
Genealogy 232
Library 236
Literature 239
Music 242
Poetry 244
Sign Language 248
Storytelling 250
Teaching 252
Typing 254
Writing 256
Nature 260
Birds 261
Butterflies 264
Flowers 268
Horses 270
Insects 273
Pets 278
Trees 281
Wildflowers 285
Others 287
Bus Worker 288
Child Care 290
Church 292
Ecology 295
Etiquette 298
Family 300
Friends 306
Grandparents 310
Hospitality 313
Letters 316
Love 320
Missionary 325
Neighbor 327
Others 330
Rest Home 332
Special Needs 334
Witnessing 338

Recreational Activities 339

Badminton 340
Bicycle 342
Croquet 346
Hiking 348
Ice Skating 352
Swimming 353
Table Tennis 354
Tennis 355
Volleyball 357

[illinoismommy]

Wow I have a number of objections to this material as well as the subject matter. First I question its origin. I am pretty sure that's on the Pearl's list of favorites, and I know I saw it on a blog from a Pearl follower.

Secondly, I question its intent. What makes any of those skills more useful for a woman than for a man? Do women not need to learn about butterflies? Are we discouraging our young ladies from math and science? Do young girls need to learn basketweaving more than boys? (I question whether we need to learn the subject at all honestly..... unless they show independent interest) I notice that on the boy's list there are things under "leadership" but in the girl's list leadership is not a valuable quality. Do I need curriculum to teach my children how to do the laundry? I notice laundry is not on the boy's list. So men and boys don't need to know how to do laundry? Wow.... I am trying to be nice here.... but I am completely and utterly disgusted and wouldn't touch that with a ten foot pole. My boy(s) will learn how to do laundry, how to cook, and how to clean. So will my girls. My girls will learn finances and camping. I would not dare limit my children in that way.... sure, boys are different from girls but they are not so different as this. When I send my boy(s) off to college they're going to know how to take care of themselves. :banghead :banghead :banghead :td :td :td

[Rabbit]

I think it sounds like fun, all the same. It may have some crud in it that isn't worth sharing with our children, but I think any momma on this board has the sense to weed that out. I am way undereducated in the home arts, and I really need a better education in it. These people may be fanatical or crazy, but I bet their homes are well organized and their dinners delicious. I might get the boy's couse, too, and go right into it after the girl's course, if those aren't too expensive.

-Natalie

[Maggie]

I got this book for about $15 at a used book store and sold it on eBay. I didn't care for it. It recommended Fugate's book What the Bible Says About Child Training, which is very supportive of spanking. I also felt that it was too conservative and a bit sexist. I believe in preparing both boys and girls for life by themselves if they don't marry until later in life. I, myself, wasn't prepared for life beyond living with my parents, but using this book is not the way I want to teach my children the necessary skills. I do believe that you could use this book and filter out the things you don't care for, but I would choose individual books on the subjects I wished to introduce to my DD.

[DebraBaker]

It still looks like the boys get to do the fun, active, outdoorsey stuff whild the girls are being socialized to be docile and domesticated.

It has a Pearlesque flavor which makes me feel like, :sick2

[AngelBee]

We are discussing two different books here.

The first is "Training Our Daughters to be Keepers At Home" by Ann Ward

The second is a book that comes from Keepers of Faith called "Keepers at Home" for girls and "Contenders of Faith" for boys.

I will be preparing both my sons and daughters to be capable adults and contributors to society.

However, the term "keeper of the home" is a call to women bibically.

Titus 2:3-5
Likewise, tell the older women to be reverent in behaviour, not to be slanderers or slaves to drink; they are to teach what is good, so that they may encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be self-controlled, chaste, good managers of the household(keepers of the home in the KJV) , kind, being submissive to their husbands, so that the word of God may not be discredited.

[SouthPaw]

I might get the boy's couse, too, and go right into it after the girl's course, if those aren't too expensive.

:yes the boy's stuff looks fun too. they need to make ONE course that includes all the USEFUL stuff (handyman stuff for both, for example) and maybe drop out some of the basket weaving, etc.

[Punkie]

Oh! When you said

I also have the "Contenders for the Faith" book which is for the boys.

I thought you were saying it was the boys version of the same series, so I thought you were talking about their Keepers of the Home book!

I see there are mixed reviews of the Ann Ward one at HomeSchoolReviews
http://homeschoolreviews.com/reviews/curriculum/reviews.aspx?id=112

but the author thinks it is ungodly and provocative for a woman to wear blue jeans

I'm guessing that book is very conservative :shrug I wear skirts, but I don't think I'd call jeans unGodly.

[AngelBee]

I might get the boy's couse, too, and go right into it after the girl's course, if those aren't too expensive.

:yes the boy's stuff looks fun too. they need to make ONE course that includes all the USEFUL stuff (handyman stuff for both, for example) and maybe drop out some of the basket weaving, etc.



But for some, one course would not do it as they believe that men and women were called to fulfill different roles in the home.

That said, I am using the programs as a base. My dd will know how to hunt, do basic home repairs, do yard work and my ds will know how to swaddle a baby, change dipes, and clean house. I feel that is important if they are to truly minister to others or their spouse/children in the future.

The Bible Study stuff will be focused more on preparing them for their unique callings. Though we will be studying the entire bible.....not like we will be leaving parts out depending on their gender....if that makes sense.

[milkmommy]

having courses in braiding rugs made me :giggle It's actually something I wish I knew how to do but can't imagine a 90 minute course on it :shifty

and the "child training" made me cringe :neutral I can almost peg what that will entail.

But a lot of that is stuff I enjoy and wish I'd known how to do. My concern would be anyone who puts together such a comprehensive program would have an agenda and be pushing it and 7 years sounds like indoctrination. I would almost use it for myself and then model and teach in my own style with my dd. But I think it sounds interesting and I'd love to hear how you enjoy it :)

Ditto except I have no desire to braid rugs :shifty :giggle

Deanna

[Benjaminswife]

ITA with everything Janet said. I plan to teach all my kids the same things, no matter the gender.

[AngelBee]

Ok....I am kinda giggling about braiding rugs. :laughtears

I do not think it ever crossed my mind to do so.....or to want to do so. :grin

[Maggie]

IMO braiding rugs sounds more fun than weaving baskets. :lol

[AngelBee]

IMO braiding rugs sounds more fun than weaving baskets. :lol

:laughtears

[DebraBaker]

Now braiding hair, that's a useful skill.

The materials give me the creeps, bad vibes sort of legalistic.

My girls and boys are being taught almost the same, we're in an egalitarian home without gender roles.

I don't consider patriarchal structures to be "Biblical."

[AngelBee]

Now braiding hair, that's a useful skill.

The materials give me the creeps, bad vibes sort of legalistic.

My girls and boys are being taught almost the same, we're in an egalitarian home without gender roles.

I don't consider patriarchal structures to be "Biblical."

How would it be legalistic? :scratch

[ServingGod]

I always know that when I see AngelBee and Debra Baker posting on the same thread...its gonna be interesting. :poke :beandip2

[AngelBee]

I always know that when I see AngelBee and Debra Baker posting on the same thread...its gonna be interesting. :poke :beandip2
:laughtears

[mamatogands]

:popcorn

[erinee]

I'm using the Life Skills for Kids book to remind myself to teach my kids things that I might overlook otherwise, plus dh & I are jotting things down as we think of them (like we want both kids to help dh build a car before they get their driver's licenses, and we want each kid to take on the household budget their senior year of high school). It seems more relevant to today's society and not gender-specific. I do feel I need to teach them a lot of these things because I never learned them, but I don't like the tone of gender-biased books. Even if you believe the Bible calls for gender-specific roles, what if one of your kids doesn't get married? They won't have anyone to fill in the gaps for them.

They will both get lots of crafty stuff in Scouts, so I think we'll be covered there. :grin

[ArmsOfLove]

Well, with regards to the "child training" I don't know what is in the book, but I read that right on the list posted in the OP :shrug

As for legalistic . . . Yes, women are mothers; Yes, men are fathers. Beyond that it is adopting a particular period of history and pegging boys and girls into prescribed humanly ordained roles that may or may not fit them. It's one thing to say, "Hey, let's learn how to braid a rug." It's a completely different thing to say, "Women braid rugs. You will be a woman. It's time to learn a womanly duty." While I would assume women could use this curriculum and present the material however they want, I am hearing the curriculum saying the second and that is legalistic.

I agree with pp's that I am teaching my boys how to clean and cook and care for babies and my dd is getting training in how to study and memorize Scripture :tu

[illinoismommy]

For me its not just a question of "is it fun?" but "what ideas am I perpetuating?" as well as "who does the money go to?" If I bought this material I know it would only further their ability to make and sell more materials and personally I would rather these ones disappear.... poof..... there are a lot of fun things in this world, but if I believe a fun thing is diametrically opposed to what I stand for, then I will not do it. I will find another fun thing. :shrug

[CelticJourney]

If I am remembering correctly the Keepers of the Faith (Keepers at Home, whatever for boys) was developed as a Christian alternative to Boy/Girl Scouts. The thing that got to me was that boys were to learn money management, girls were to learn how to clean. :eyebrow :mad. I know it is different than the book mentioned in the OP, just adding some info.

If you want to use it, filter. That is what I do with Girl Scouts. I lead my own group of homeschooled girls from Christain homes so I can bring up religion when I want to. In the case of GS, I filter any 'feminist' bent of the materials. I'm fine with 'girls are strong' as long as it doesn't come with a 'boys stink' tag line. If they have a really good way to teach a girl how to sew, use it, just avoid the oppressive parts that tell her that is weak.

[DebraBaker]

I guess I want the spectrum of my children's hopes and dreams to be broader than culturally defined gender roles (50 year old culture at that!!!)

I guess that's how my daughters get to do things like become doctors, US Marines, world ranked karate-ka, top in the class math students, yadda yadda.

Heck, if they wanted to braid a rug, I bet they could learn how to do that as well.

[Mother of Sons]

I think that it sounds great! (contenders/ keepers?)

Just out of boredom I went through and marked what the boys and girls have in common on their list. I think there were 57 things. The boys have 31 unique items and the girls have 45 unique items. There were several that appeared to be possibly the same thing with a different title.

I spent yesterday listening to my grampa tell storys of the things he and his brothers grew up doing. Stuff boys don't do anymore :( Stuff my gramma had zero interest in. He still cooks dinner when my gramma is in too much pain.

I'm all for boys learning how to do laundry and girls learning how to use a hammer but boys and girls are not the same. :shrug

Anything else I have to say will come out bad so :pan

Except to say that I think basket weaving or rug braiding sounds cool and I think it is sad that domestic arts in general are so looked down upon. Regarded as silly or unecessary or too feminine (and it's not cool for a girl to be feminine is it?)

[mommyTay]

I'm all for boys learning how to do laundry and girls learning how to use a hammer but boys and girls are not the same. :shrug

Anything else I have to say will come out bad so :pan

Except to say that I think basket weaving or rug braiding sounds cool and I think it is sad that domestic arts in general are so looked down upon. Regarded as silly or unecessary or too feminine (and it's not cool for a girl to be feminine is it?)


Thank you! I was starting to feel very alone and frustrated reading through the rest of this thread. I have no problem teaching the same skills equally to my boys and girls. However, I still believe in raising little ladies and gentlemen, traits I see too little of these days. :bheart

[Quiteria]

I'm all for boys learning how to do laundry and girls learning how to use a hammer but boys and girls are not the same. :shrug

Anything else I have to say will come out bad so :pan

Except to say that I think basket weaving or rug braiding sounds cool and I think it is sad that domestic arts in general are so looked down upon. Regarded as silly or unecessary or too feminine (and it's not cool for a girl to be feminine is it?)


Thank you! I was starting to feel very alone and frustrated reading through the rest of this thread. I have no problem teaching the same skills equally to my boys and girls. However, I still believe in raising little ladies and gentlemen, traits I see too little of these days. :bheart


Me, too! And I think dh feels a bit unmanly when confronted by the fact that he doesn't have much experience in auto maintanence or home repairs... My college roommate knew all kinds of this "female" stuff...she was pre-med (and did get her MD and a bachelor's in math), but she could also knit, cook up leftovers, can fruit, sew slip covers...she had the nicest (and frugal) little home after leaving the dorm!

I don't know if I would like the tone of these books or not, but I would like my dd to have more home skills than I do if she tries to SAHM someday. I'd like to use my college degree again, too, but right now I'm just enslaved by the loans for a career I'm not pursuing. :shrug I think I'd consider buying used copies of these for both genders so that I didn't have to brainstorm a whole list on my own (esp. since I am lacking in this dept.) and doing many of the lessons together, but not necessarily all, depending on their interests. Cooking--both as far as basics. More advanced cooking--whoever's interested. Sewing--basic repair for both. Knitting--probably just dd. Auto maintanence--both. Heavy duty greasy auto repair--just ds with dh unless dd was obviously fascinated. I think that dh and I might both benefit ourselves :giggle..besides bonding w/ the kids.

And pushing ds to take Bible Study seriously as a manly responsibility as head of the household...that seems like a good counter to the usual perception that the church is comprised of 75% women (involved) with 25% men (uninvolved except for pastor) :/ Girls need to have some leadership skills, too :yes, but if boys don't develop any, how will they fulfill their biblical role as husbands, if they marry? :doh

[DebraBaker]

He should feel just as unmanly if he can't manage to wash his own shorts, too.

[arwen_tiw]

:giggle ITA

[Mother of Sons]

He should feel just as unmanly if he can't manage to wash his own shorts, too.

I think everyone agress that boys and girls should both know how to clean, cook, minor sewing and minor house repairs.

[michelle]

Hi, this is a great thread. I just want to add my two cents.

I have looked into purchasing all of these books. For me they seem like great books in addition to what ever your philosophies are at home. I have been on some websites for these books and most ,I'll say there are more mothers who buy the program because they are home more, buy the books for theirselves so they can pass the info to their daughters and sons.

The extra books that you need to buy is where most of the mothers have gleaned their information on the TODKAH( training our daughters to be keepers at home). I myself am trying to do the first year of this, although I haven't got the book yet. Also I have noticed and I think it is mentioned in all the books, I know it is in the contenders of the faith books, that you do not need to do every skill and you can add skills. Based on this info I think these books are a wonderful supplement for my home considering I like many other women the focus for me was schooling when I was young and thus I wish I had more prepatory skills for homemaking. My parents just told me you can 'read a book about that stuff later'. :lol :giggle This is pretty funny because I plan to do so now.

Reading through the intro to the books I noticed they had the common theme that going through these books will teach how to do for others and share love towards others. In my opinion getting store bought gifts is nice but getting a gift that somebody sacrificed time and energy into making it seems so much more special to me. I even keep those gifts even if they are not exactly my taste just for the fact that somebody took that energy. As for those talents that seem useless in the U.S. right now to me they seem invaluable for third world countries. I hope to think that the U.S. will always be industrialized or that my family will always be blessed to live in an area that you can just walk/drive to a store to buy nessesary items but I have no idea what Gods plan is. I would like to give my son and any other children we have as well as for myself an education that can be taken anywhere in the world whether it is skills in courtesy to be used in front of presidents and kings and queens or being a missionary helping a small remote village doing basic skills.

Before I came across these books I never even gave thought about preparing my child/ren in many of these skills. I am happy that somebody took the time to write down these arts that are disappearing rather quickly in our culture. I want to purchase these books so at my child/rens pace we can go through them as a time of bonding and not as forcing everything down their throats. I would be happy even if they have no desire of doing these skills but just seeing me do them.

I hope I didn't offend any one. I am just so happy that there are people that have heard about this because a while ago I had asked about it and I didn't get anybody who had so I did some research of my own.

[Quiteria]

He should feel just as unmanly if he can't manage to wash his own shorts, too.


He can and does...as stated,I'd do most of the survival stuff TOGETHER for both.

[ChristianMother27]

the books sound interesting. i believe in gender roles (mostly, i don't have a problem with for example teaching a future son to cook or wash his clothes - important skills if his wife falls ill or needs a break :))

[AngelBee]

Except to say that I think basket weaving or rug braiding sounds cool and I think it is sad that domestic arts in general are so looked down upon. Regarded as silly or unecessary or too feminine (and it's not cool for a girl to be feminine is it?)

THAT is exactly what breaks my heart. :sad2

[ChristianMother27]

i think basket weaving is fun :D but then.. i am part native american :D

[AngelBee]

the books sound interesting. i believe in gender roles (mostly, i don't have a problem with for example teaching a future son to cook or wash his clothes - important skills if his wife falls ill or needs a break :))

I too believe in gender roles and think it is important though that they be well rounded to fill in the gaps. :tu

[mamatogands]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch

[Mamatoto]

My grandmother braids beautiful rugs and has filled her country style home with them. My mother used to sit in the living room in the evening and braid rugs, too. I think it is very worthwhile and you can sell them for a good price, too! A lady bought a wool braided rug for $100 at our library auction last year! :-) I think both books sound neat and if you have a boy and a girl maybe you could interchange them as your child's interest would lead. :shrug I agree with what Crystal said in that I am going to learn the things that I will teach my kids first...I have asked my grandmother for a rug braiding lesson, I did some when I was a child but need a new lesson...and knitting I am planning on learning this year, too.

[ChristianMother27]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch


to accept them - to think them appropriate... at least that's what i mean. my MIL doesn't really "believe in" gender roles meaning that she kept wanting to buy DD boy clothes... and i wanted her in pink and in dresses (but not always in pink dresses :giggle)

[domesticzookeeper]

Funny you should mention boys needing to wash their own clothes: part of the kids' schooling is choosing skills they want to learn in the upcoming year. My 15 year old brother said he wants to do his own laundry :giggle :rockon

[AngelBee]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch

I believe that man and woman were both created equal in God's image. I also believe that they were created to fulfill specific roles that are not interchangable. :grin

[DebraBaker]

I plainly don't believe in traditional gender roles.

My daughter, for example, is in med school. When she is finished with residency, she will be making the lion's share of the family income. When they have a baby(ies), my SIL will be staying home with their child(ren,) until they're in school (or at least for the first three years.)

These aren't traditional gender roles.

I think much of what we think of as gender roles are social constructs. I want my boys and girls to acquire diverse and useful skills as they enter their adult years.

[mamatogands]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch


to accept them - to think them appropriate... at least that's what i mean. my MIL doesn't really "believe in" gender roles meaning that she kept wanting to buy DD boy clothes... and i wanted her in pink and in dresses (but not always in pink dresses :giggle)


but what are we accepting? How do we know where these roles come from? I like pink dresses too, but what about pink is immutably girly?



I also believe that they were created to fulfill specific roles that are not interchangable. :grin
[/quote]

but again, how do we know what those specific roles are? what, as a Christian, tells me that boys should contend for the faith and study insects (that jumped out at me from the list because it sounded like fun! :mrgreen) and girls should braid rugs? I don't disdain braiding rugs in anyway -- sounds groovy. I have the highest respect for the household arts, I just don't understand why we would think they belong to women.

aside from cultural expectations of course, which, as Christians, we generally don't accept as a single good reason for upholding something...

[Aisling]

I hope my daughter will learn the things she needs to know to keep her own home as she grows. I'm certainly not going to push it on her, I;d rather she get good grades and go to college.

When I left for college, I didn't care for/know much about babies, couldn't cook, didn't do anything "homey". At all :shifty. Now nothing could be further from the truth :mrgreen I'm a lot more appreciative of the academic and other life skills I learned at home. The other things weren't worth much to me until I had my own family...and I had been taught to be independant and resourceful enough to figure it out on my own ;) Worked for me :tu

[cklewis]

I believe I'll have another cookie. :cookie

C

[DebraBaker]

I want my girls to go to college *and* know a thing or two about running a home.

It isn't an either or thing.

[ArmsOfLove]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch

I believe that man and woman were both created equal in God's image. I also believe that they were created to fulfill specific roles that are not interchangable. :grin
But what about cooking requires ovaries??? :shrug It was Abraham who prepared food for God :grin Most chefs are men :shrug I believe in justifiable gender roles--not gender roles pulled from Victorian England or the 1950's suburban America.

I still believe in raising little ladies and gentlemen, traits I see too little of these days. I'm absolutely raising little ladies and gentlemen :tu

I guess mostly I'm sad that people feel they need to look to books to learn how to be ladies and gentlemen and men and women of God :( This is the Titus 2 woman's role

[illinoismommy]

Wow.... well I just don't know what to say. This thread saddens me. I wouldn't give my money to those people to teach skills that I could go to the craft store and get a book on each subject and support someone else I would agree with. The way they divide things up is just so disturbing..... I like to think I am a lady, I am a stay at home mom, I love what I do, and I plan to raise my children to be ladies and gentlemen too. I don't feel that I need to limit my daughters to do it, or pretend like I agree with the lists they have for boys and girls. :shrug

[SouthPaw]

Hmm well the fact is, when you're slinging a newborn and chasing around a toddler, I assume knitting and rug braiding and sewing would be a lot more manageable (and useful) than running through the woods classifying insects or riding horses :mrgreen

So I think domestic arts are more useful for someone who does intend to someday be a mother... things you can do *at home*.

Of course, if your daughter does intend to be a lawyer and spend 98% of her day out of the home and not have kids, cool! That's fine. But preparing women to be Mommies does indeed seem to demand more in the domestic-arts department.

And personally, I would much rather cook dinner than fix a transmission. I've done both. Cooking is way more "me". There's nothing wrong with "gender roles" that you LIKE as long as nobody is FORCED into them.

[cklewis]

Of course, if your daughter does intend to be a lawyer and spend 98% of her day out of the home and not have kids, cool! That's fine. But preparing women to be Mommies does indeed seem to demand more in the domestic-arts department.

It's so not either-ot though. I think I prove that.

Camille, Knitter, Smocker, and Rhetorician

[SouthPaw]

Right, it's not either or. But you also must agree that if you really want to learn something *well enough to be good at it* it takes a lot of time and effort, and you do have to prioritize.... SOME things have to come before other things. I personally would love about 10 different degrees, but I don't have the time to learn everything for them :grin So yeah, I would hope "advanced cooking" would come before "advanced knot tying", unless the kid had just a burning interest in the latter. It's just practical.

[cklewis]

Right, it's not either or. But you also must agree that if you really want to learn something *well enough to be good at it* it takes a lot of time and effort, and you do have to prioritize.... SOME things have to come before other things. I personally would love about 10 different degrees, but I don't have the time to learn everything for them :grin So yeah, I would hope "advanced cooking" would come before "advanced knot tying", unless the kid had just a burning interest in the latter. It's just practical.


But how long does it take to learn cooking, let's say? Or balancing a checkbook? These are necessary chores, not life's purpose. :shrug

C

[SouthPaw]

:mrgreen I understand what you're saying. But it's impossible to have time to do EVERYTHING, really. All I mean is, I would prefer that my kids be really good at XYZ than vaguely familiar with ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST....... etc. And depending on what Kid A or Kid B wants for their future, that would determine where we concentrated... and if it happens to be "Traditionally gender roled", that's ok. I wouldn't MAKE my DD go out and hunt, just because it's part of her (currently imaginary) brother's curriculum as well. See?

[illinoismommy]

Hmm well the fact is, when you're slinging a newborn and chasing around a toddler, I assume knitting and rug braiding and sewing would be a lot more manageable (and useful) than running through the woods classifying insects or riding horses :mrgreen

So I think domestic arts are more useful for someone who does intend to someday be a mother... things you can do *at home*.

You would be far more likely to find me running in the woods classifying insects.... slinging babies and all :shifty But from childhood I was never good at sitting still, so when my mom tried to teach me to sew I couldn't focus .... I always wanted to play outside, go on hikes, collect rocks, etc. In school I was best at math and science, and read large books.... somehow I can sit still for books. My husband laughs at me because to this day if we're watching a movie I have to be doing something, like organizing something or cleaning... I just don't sit still. I am so glad that my parents recognized that this did not make me unfeminine or ungirlish. I always knew I wanted to be a stay at home mom, and yet I didn't want to sew or knit or any of that. As a stay at home mom I don't find those skills missed :shrug How many times have I had the urge to braid a rug or weave a basket? None! I've used calculus more than I have had any interest in those skills.... and that doesn't make me less of a woman, less of a mother, or less of a wive. :soapbox


Of course, if your daughter does intend to be a lawyer and spend 98% of her day out of the home and not have kids, cool! That's fine. But preparing women to be Mommies does indeed seem to demand more in the domestic-arts department.

Don't read me wrong or put extras into my mouth, I am anti-daycare. In this age, that makes me a rather unpopular individual. I still say it doesn't demand any extras in the demestic arts department as far as most of the skills on that list :scratch

And personally, I would much rather cook dinner than fix a transmission. I've done both. Cooking is way more "me". There's nothing wrong with "gender roles" that you LIKE as long as nobody is FORCED into them.


Lol.... I would rather do neither! I don't want to work on cars (boring) but I'm not fond of cooking either. I do cook, so that we can eat, but that doesn't mean I count it among the favorite activities of the day. What is way more me is planting a garden with vegetables and flowers. I'd rather dig in the earth than be holed up in the kitchen.

But really what it comes down for me is that if my child wants to learn how to basketweave, I'm going to the craft store to buy a book no way I would buy from these individuals.....

[illinoismommy]

:mrgreen I understand what you're saying. But it's impossible to have time to do EVERYTHING, really. All I mean is, I would prefer that my kids be really good at XYZ than vaguely familiar with ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST....... etc. And depending on what Kid A or Kid B wants for their future, that would determine where we concentrated... and if it happens to be "Traditionally gender roled", that's ok. I wouldn't MAKE my DD go out and hunt, just because it's part of her (currently imaginary) brother's curriculum as well. See?


I think the real issue comes when you have a girl that isn't interested in anything on the girl's list, and a boy that doesn't want to hunt. Then what? That certainly would have been the case with me as a child. That list would have really messed me up. These authors will make them feel like less of a girl or less of a boy, will you allow that influence in your home? Will you push your children to be different than they were born to be? What if it happens to be different than traditionally gender roled?

[DebraBaker]

[quote]
Of course, if your daughter does intend to be a lawyer and spend 98% of her day out of the home and not have kids, cool! That's fine. But preparing women to be Mommies does indeed seem to demand more in the domestic-arts department.

Don't read me wrong or put extras into my mouth, I am anti-daycare. In this age, that makes me a rather unpopular individual. I still say it doesn't demand any extras in the demestic arts department as far as most of the skills on that list :scratch








I have always stayed with my young children but the girl who grows up to be a lawyer may have a husband that stays home with his children.

I think it all boils down to treating children as individuals and, if you're homsechooling, give them extra enrichment that appeals to their individual intersts. They're starting to do that with "Tech Ed (formerly known as shop,) and whatever they call home ec nowadays (It might all be lumped together as tech ed,) the kids get to choose from a list of courses.

[cklewis]

:mrgreen I understand what you're saying. But it's impossible to have time to do EVERYTHING, really. All I mean is, I would prefer that my kids be really good at XYZ than vaguely familiar with ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST....... etc. And depending on what Kid A or Kid B wants for their future, that would determine where we concentrated... and if it happens to be "Traditionally gender roled", that's ok. I wouldn't MAKE my DD go out and hunt, just because it's part of her (currently imaginary) brother's curriculum as well. See?


Oh ITU the pursuing an individual's interest thing. I happen to like girly-girl things. And Aristotle.

But the curriculum isn't "So you'd like to learn cooking." It's "So you're a girl."

#1 -- it takes little time to learn certain chores. Balancing a checkbook, washing dishes, cleaning house. It doesn't take 7 years.
#2 -- this curriculum assumes that those chores are best learned with a whole-curriculum focus. honestly though, you can learn them while you're learning algebra, reading Wilder, and catching bugs.

C

[Aisling]

:mrgreen I understand what you're saying. But it's impossible to have time to do EVERYTHING, really. All I mean is, I would prefer that my kids be really good at XYZ than vaguely familiar with ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST....... etc. And depending on what Kid A or Kid B wants for their future, that would determine where we concentrated... and if it happens to be "Traditionally gender roled", that's ok. I wouldn't MAKE my DD go out and hunt, just because it's part of her (currently imaginary) brother's curriculum as well. See?


Oh ITU the pursuing an individual's interest thing. I happen to like girly-girl things. And Aristotle.

But the curriculum isn't "So you'd like to learn cooking." It's "So you're a girl."

#1 -- it takes little time to learn certain chores. Balancing a checkbook, washing dishes, cleaning house. It doesn't take 7 years.
#2 -- this curriculum assumes that those chores are best learned with a whole-curriculum focus. honestly though, you can learn them while you're learning algebra, reading Wilder, and catching bugs.

C

What she said. I'm a classically trained vocalist, I can correctly pronounce German/Italian/Latin/French, I have a deep interest in writing, have the ability to be a private voice instructor, I'm a birth doula....

and I'm a pretty darn good cook, I can sew enough to get the job done, I know a good deal about childcare, I make soap, croquet, balance the books, garden, bake, have a knowledge of natural health....

and I honestly didn't know how to do *any* of these before I was 17 years old. I was trained to educate myself, stretch my wings, try new things, and develop my mind. And that's what I did ;) I don't think it's necessary to communicate to my daughter that she'll likely *just* become a homemaker, so that's what we're going to focus on...because, in my experience, it wasn't practical :shrug

I'd much rather hand down the ability to educate herself than the attitude that her place is in the home, so she shouldn't look much further. Because, truly, life sometimes calls for more than cooking and cleaning. I want her to know that she's up for the challenge.

[cklewis]

What she said. I'm a classically trained vocalist, I can correctly pronounce German/Italian/Latin/French, I have a deep interest in writing, have the ability to be a private voice instructor, I'm a birth doula....

and I'm a pretty darn good cook, I can sew enough to get the job done, I know a good deal about childcare, I make soap, croquet, balance the books, garden, bake, have a knowledge of natural health....

and I honestly didn't know how to do *any* of these before I was 17 years old. I was trained to educate myself, stretch my wings, try new things, and develop my mind. And that's what I did ;) I don't think it's necessary to communicate to my daughter that she'll likely *just* become a homemaker, so that's what we're going to focus on...because, in my experience, it wasn't practical :shrug

I'd much rather hand down the ability to educate herself than the attitude that her place is in the home, so she shouldn't look much further. Because, truly, life sometimes calls for more than cooking and cleaning. I want her to know that she's up for the challenge.


Brava! :clap

C

[Mother of Sons]

what, as a Christian, tells me that boys should contend for the faith and study insects (that jumped out at me from the list because it sounded like fun! )

Studying insects was on both lists. Actually the majority of things were on both lists. I guess I'm just not seeing what some of you are seeing.

[FourCutieBugs]

Here's my personal experience:

I was raised to have a career. The assumption was that if I got married, then fine, I wouldn't need one neccessarily, but I needed to be prepared just in case my spouse became disabled or passed away or what have you anyway. The assumption was also that I might not neccessarily get married.

My mother was not domestic *at all*. Her mother was like a combination of Grace Kelly and June Cleaver. Very stylish, beautiful, and sophisticated, and always the perfect homemaker. Even sewed matching clothed for her kids Very well. She was featured in newspaper articles in her hometown of Nashville, Tennessee for her cooking and for her home's decor. She and my grandfather were the perfect couple with the perfect marriage, and they were very glamorous and cosmopolitain and modern at the same time. My mother knew how to be the perfect housewife, but she always said she'd prefer to read or listen to or play/sing music. My mother was/is multi-talented. SHe was an opera singer who got starring roles, she was an actress who got starring roles. She played piano and guitar. She was an artist as well. Her talents would take her away from the family at night, which wasn't at all my father's idea of family life. I remember seeing her in the role of Maria in "The Sound of Music" when I was 4, and it was sooo spectacular to me to see my mommy up on stage and so beautiful and so talented. It didn't bother me. I was proud of her and din't notie her going to rehearsals and stuff that much. I even got to be IN an opera with her when i was 5. It was "La Boheme" and one of the characters got to smash a plate right on stage. That was quite something. :mrgreen

So as a result of all this, I grew up knowing zip about domestic anything. We lived in stacks at home, and usualyy ate some stirfried pile of something over rice for dinner. No biggie to me. But it really hit hard when I got married and immediately started having kids and realized I had *no clue* how to run a household, or that it was even neccessary to know how. I have been married for 6 years, and feel just now like I am starting to get a hold of things. But it's been tough. Especially since I spent so much blood swat and tears trying to become a ballerina/choreographer throughout those crucial jr. high/highschool years. Being in gifted programs I always was told I was the cream of the crop and was expected to do something stupendous career-wise, so that's what i focused on. And for me it had to be creative. So I tried all sorts of things once I gave up my ballet identity and went for Graphic Design. I loved it and had found where I finally fit in. I worked my tail off trying to be the best one of those in my class, and then when I got married at the end of my junior year, I realized at last what was important in life, and it wasn't identifying myself with a career. But it was a BIG shock to find out that what I had thus far invested my life in was going to be pretty close to useless to me when I found myself in the depths of despair and cluelessness with a house and babies to take care of. I was now not only not the best at what I was doing, but I was lost. I was BAD at it. It's been humbling. But I don't want my daughter to be where I have been. Housekeeping should just be second nature, because everyone lives and has to do it, then all the fun stuff can be done with far less stress and anxiety. That's my vision for it anyway, and I am starting to get there.

I have a friend who is an ObGyn, who was raised mennonite, and she can do anything domestic VERY well. She doesn't have to spend a whole lot of time doing researh first to figure it out. She can just do it because she knows how already and this enables her to spend so much more of her time on other things. I would love to get to that point, but I started off so far behind.

Anyway, my 2 cents. :) DOn't think I'll come down on either side of the fence, I don't think it's neccessary.

[illinoismommy]

Hmm well from what I am seeing here we are discussing different things. I am discussing the material from the original post. I am not disputing that teaching my children to cook and how to keep a complicated life in order are useful life skills..... I am disputing whether this particular product is worthy.... again, do we need a curriculum to teach our daughters how to do laundry? Its on their list. :scratch

[FourCutieBugs]

yes, I agree with you Janet. It is a bit strange to me to have that on a curriculum list. Then again, I have a housekeepng book called "Home Comforts" in which it is proven that there is quite alot to be known about the art of laundering! :lol But all I need is my book. And if I had been second nature in our house gowing up, there'd have not even been a need for that.

[SouthPaw]

oh my goodness, i still am not 100% sure what the permanent press cycle is for :bag

[cklewis]

oh my goodness, i still am not 100% sure what the permanent press cycle is for :bag


Do they even MAKE perma-press clothes anymore? :shrug

C

[phathui5]

http://www.keepersofthefaith.com/Catalog/Keepers_Books_89.asp#2332


While this looks cool too, it's a totally different book than the one in my OP.

[mamatogands]

oh my, I can't keep up!

just watched a Wifeswap on tivo from a week ago -- one mom accused the dad of having "perverse roles" because he was making spaghetti! seriously!

I want my daughter and my son to learn how to be a woman and a man from Jesus.

[TulipMama]

I love my Home Comforts book!

I'll never be an "ideal" housekeeper, but I do like to have inspirational materials around that encourage me to help my family make our home peaceful and orderly.

[FourCutieBugs]

I love my Home Comforts book!

:highfive :mrgreen

[This Busy Mom]

:neutral

I wish someone would have cared enough to teach me some organizational skills and how to take care of a home when I was growing up :shrug .

I wouldn't touch the book in the OP with a ten foot pole, though (nor did I care for any of the Doorpost materials...). I do like the Home Comforts book... although I don't totally agree with her on some things that I've read.

[mamatogands]

I love my Home Comforts book!

:highfive :mrgreen


me too ! :kiss (dh thinks I'm crazy! :giggle)

[ChristianMother27]

re: pink - i don't know what "makes" pink girly... to me it is just a girl color. but that's the only gender color to me cuz i don't see blue as a boy color :giggle i don't know why, i guess i've just not seen very much guys wear pink in my life. (the only guys i've ever seen wear pink were gay, so...)

as far as the curriculum. i think it would be useful *for me* because i also wasn't raised learning the domestic arts - my mom knew how to cook. she taught me how to make biscuits, and how to make and decorate cakes and that was it. i taught myself knitting and crocheting and sewing, i also don't know what the settings on my laundry machien do really (learned some of that off my detergent box :giggle) i think it would be helpful because i don't have the domestic arts background, at least for me to learn so i can teach DD. i don't know if DD would really need a book per se though.

[pneumaphile]

I haven't read all the replies, but I read the boys' and girls' curriclulum. All I can say is ick, ick, ick. I will teach ALL my children, boys or girls, to keep a home and balance the budget, and also all the science and math and nature and sports they can handle.

Yes there are differences in the genders. But all young women deserve a fair shake at a career, if that's what they want to do, and all men deserve a fair shake at being able to keep their homes and their finances. My husband and I have a division of labor, but that' s our choice, not our upbringing.

It's yucky and gender-discriminatory, and I hated reading about it.

[ChristianMother27]

for me i see the gender roles as what i read from the Bible (from titus mostly) - about women being keepers at home. if they're keepers at home then there is a lot of homey stuff they can do (the laundry, cleaning, cooking, crafts, etc) - and the guy (in my understanding) is supposed to support the family and provide for them so he needs to learn those skills. at least IMHO :D

[mamatogands]

re: pink - i don't know what "makes" pink girly... to me it is just a girl color.


historically -- there was a raging debate about whether pink should be for baby girls or baby boys -- some argued that pink was clearly a stronger, more robust color and should be used for boys.

check this out!

it would seem that
assigning color to gender is mostly a 20th century trait. It would
also seem that at one time, the color associations were reversed when
color first came into use as a gender identifier.

In fact, this reversal of what we consider "normal" was considered
conventional, even in the early 20th century.

"At one point pink was considered more of a boy's color, (as a
watered-down red, which is a fierce color) and blue was more for
girls. The associate of pink with bold, dramatic red clearly affected
its use for boys. An American newspaper in 1914 advised mothers, "If
you like the color note on the little one's garments, use pink for the
boy and blue for the girl, if you are a follower of convention." [The
Sunday Sentinal, March 29, 1914.]

"There has been a great diversity of opinion on the subject, but the
generally accepted rule is pink for the boy and blue for the girl. The
reason is that pink being a more decided and stronger color is more
suitable for the boy, while blue, which is more delicate and dainty,
is prettier for the girl." [Ladies Home Journal, June, 1918]
http://histclo.hispeed.com/gender/color.html - "Gender Specific
Colors"

It would also seem that Nazi Germany had something to do with the
association of pink with femininity:

"Catholic traditions in Germany and neighboring countries reverse the
current color coding, because of the strong association of blue with
the Virgin Mary...the NAZIs in their concentration camps use a pink
triangle to identify homosexuals. (The yellow star of David is the
best known symbol, used of course to identify Jews. The German system
was quite complicated, using various symbols an colors to identify
criminals, political prisinors, an a whole range of other groups). The
NAZI's choice of pink suggests that it by the 1930s was a color that
in Germany had become associate with girls."


http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=238733

but now, it seems immutable to us that pink is for baby girls. I'm saying that most of what we understand as gender roles is like that.

I want to learn how to be a woman from scripture, and from Jesus too, but I don't see how one isolated reference about keeping the home can support the need for Christians to uphold cultural gender stereotypes that there is no good reason to believe are God's intention (anymore than there is good reason to think God prefers baby girls in pink)

again, I like pink, I love the domestic arts, but claiming that gender stereotypes are God's work is dangerous business.

[cklewis]

That is sooooooooooooooooooo interesting. :read

C

[ChristianMother27]

claiming that gender stereotypes are God's work is dangerous business.

i don't think i really said that... for me the issue is more complicated than just the titus verse. the woman is to be man's helpmeet (her husband that is). i know from my own experience that it is night impossible for me to do that when i'm working (i don't work with my husband..) and in fact it's more like i'm my boss's helpmeet which to me is so not the way it should be. i end up having very little time and energy to be a helper to my husband, and if i do help him then i'm definitely too tired to fulfill my "wifely duties". so even though i just mentioned the titus thing, there's a lot more things "in it" for me than just that :) :grouphug :heart


and p.s. SO WEIRD how we chose the nazi's colors for girls... :shifty

[mamatogands]

and p.s. SO WEIRD how we chose the nazi's colors for girls... :shifty


isn't it though :kiss

maybe a new thread on "helpmeet" would be fun... :shifty

[ChristianMother27]

maybe a new thread on "helpmeet" would be fun... :shifty


sure :) i'd start it but i don't know what to say in the OP :giggle

[CelticJourney]

for me i see the gender roles as what i read from the Bible (from titus mostly) - about women being keepers at home. if they're keepers at home then there is a lot of homey stuff they can do (the laundry, cleaning, cooking, crafts, etc) - and the guy (in my understanding) is supposed to support the family and provide for them so he needs to learn those skills. at least IMHO

In my opinion - Yes and no. I think there is a reflection here of the Jewish ideas about public and private life (I'll ask Crystal come help/correct me on this one). But even in Biblical times, women were 'in the world'. Think of all the women in the Bible who had 'income' or where the head of households. Dorcas the seamstress, Anna who worked with her husband in the tent making business, the widow whose flour and oil lasted and lasted. I have even heard speculation that Mary Magdeline may have been a merchant or trader. The ever looming Proverbs 31 woman who 'considered the field and buys it; out of her earnings.....she sees that her trading is profitable' - she had a mind for business and used it to the advantage of her family.

The other side of this coin is that it is often not as simple a division of labor as we sometimes visualize. A great example might be the Medieval Queen or Lady of the castle. When the Lord as away, she was in charge. She had to know everything the Lord did to manage affairs in his absence. A modern day equivalent might be the Army wife. When my dh went to Bosnia, all decisions were mine. I already handled the bill paying, so that was not an issue. But under programs like this one, girls don't receive the accounting training, the boys do. I needed to know about maintaining the car - also on the guy list.

I don't think there is anything wrong with these materials in the hand of a thoughtful mother who will pick and choose. I also don't think the core of the message is of great value or even Biblical.

[ChristianMother27]

well i do the bills at home too so i think that girls should learn that :giggle

and i don't think boys SHOULDN'T learn cooking and cleaning, but maybe they don't need as in depth a lesson as maybe a girl would need if that makes sense.

my thing about the keepers at home - being a seamstress or working with one's husband or what not - to me that's ok. in my current situation, i am away from my husband, my daughter and my home, and i am working for another guy who isn't my husband. so that's where my problem comes.

[cklewis]

Have you seen the Mighty Warrior thread in Theo? :grin Now, that woman has . . . ovaries!! ;)

C

[ChristianMother27]

Have you seen the Mighty Warrior thread in Theo? :grin Now, that woman has . . . ovaries!! ;)

C

:giggle no i didn't.

[pneumaphile]

claiming that gender stereotypes are God's work is dangerous business.Amen.

[illinoismommy]

Using one verse is a questionable way to form an entire opinion on gender roles. I wonder if Deborah wasn't a woman then or some of the other women in the Bible. People write their interpretation of verses their way all the time.... someone mentioned the helpmeet verse. You know Debi Pearl has a whole book on that, its "wonderful" (um not). :shifty

[ChristianMother27]

i dunno i've never read that book, but i don't think that its existance should negate the fact that the Bible does indeed say that woman was created to be a helpmeet for man... :shrug

[cklewis]

i dunno i've never read that book, but i don't think that its existance should negate the fact that the Bible does indeed say that woman was created to be a helpmeet for man... :shrug


But Jen -- you don't have the intended definition of that word in your head. I can tell you don't by the way you're using it. The same word for "helpmeet" in Scripture is more often used to describe GOd's relationship to US. God is *our* helpmeet. :jawdrop

C

[ChristianMother27]

i dunno i've never read that book, but i don't think that its existance should negate the fact that the Bible does indeed say that woman was created to be a helpmeet for man... :shrug


But Jen -- you don't have the intended definition of that word in your head. I can tell you don't by the way you're using it. The same word for "helpmeet" in Scripture is more often used to describe GOd's relationship to US. God is *our* helpmeet. :jawdrop

C


then yes i am very confused. Genesis 2:18 said And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

even in NIV it says helper, so i guess i'm confused how that doesn't mean what it says. i am listening though if you want to enlighten me :)

[cklewis]

here. It's old, but relevant:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=8426.0

C

[cklewis]

ack. flu-brain-rot. wrong thread. just a sec. . . .

C

[cklewis]

From http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=61152.msg567671#msg567671

Actaully, the word used for help meet is also the same word used in Psalm 121:1-2


Quote
I will lift up my eyes to the mountains;
From whence does my help come from?
My help comes from the Lord, Who made heaven and earth
Being a help meet, IMO, means being someone STRONG, someone worth looking to for help, just as we look to the Lord for help. IMO that would not be a patriarchial view at all.


C

[pneumaphile]

Not to mention, it does our daughters a great deal of disservice to simply prepare them to be the good little housewife. We are not guaranteed a husband in this life. We are not guaranteed children. And all of this happens, if it happens, in God's timing.

The young woman who is just "marking time" until a husband comes along is not going to be as well off as one who is taking care of herself, serving God and others, and really living life to the fullest. We recommend to young people we work with that they not be looking for a spouse - that instead they serve God as hard as they can, and then look around to see who has kept up.

Raising a child to be a wife and mother is not the approach I'll be taking. I'll raise a child to follow his or her passions, be faithful to make a living when needed and a make difference in this world no matter what, as well as to make a home.

[ChristianMother27]

i still don't understand how my interpretation of helpmeet is different from what you referenced though :shrug

i like to think i am strong and that is why DH can depend on me to do the harder job of taking care of the house and children :giggle and DH asked me to do the bills because he is terrible at numbers so he looked to me for help in that matter... i dunno, i think i'm missing something

[cklewis]

I started a new thread here:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=74868.0

:grin

C

[heartofjoy]

But under programs like this one, girls don't receive the accounting training, the boys do.

You guys are probably going to just roll your eyes and think "who cares!" at my comment, but I saw this mentioned more than once. The girls DO have a Budgeting lesson which I assume is probably some of the same info as Finanaces in the boy's section.

That said, I would never buy these books. I think the titles are awful and sexist, and I am a pretty conservative woman!

[ChristianMother27]

I started a new thread here:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=74868.0

:grin

C


:D ok thanks

[AngelBee]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch


to accept them - to think them appropriate... at least that's what i mean. my MIL doesn't really "believe in" gender roles meaning that she kept wanting to buy DD boy clothes... and i wanted her in pink and in dresses (but not always in pink dresses :giggle)


but what are we accepting? How do we know where these roles come from? I like pink dresses too, but what about pink is immutably girly?



I also believe that they were created to fulfill specific roles that are not interchangable. :grin


but again, how do we know what those specific roles are? what, as a Christian, tells me that boys should contend for the faith and study insects (that jumped out at me from the list because it sounded like fun! :mrgreen) and girls should braid rugs? I don't disdain braiding rugs in anyway -- sounds groovy. I have the highest respect for the household arts, I just don't understand why we would think they belong to women.

aside from cultural expectations of course, which, as Christians, we generally don't accept as a single good reason for upholding something...
[/quote]
For my family, we have determined gender roles based our interruptation for God's expectations of us in His word.

[AngelBee]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch

I believe that man and woman were both created equal in God's image. I also believe that they were created to fulfill specific roles that are not interchangable. :grin
But what about cooking requires ovaries??? :shrug It was Abraham who prepared food for God :grin Most chefs are men :shrug I believe in justifiable gender roles--not gender roles pulled from Victorian England or the 1950's suburban America.

I still believe in raising little ladies and gentlemen, traits I see too little of these days. I'm absolutely raising little ladies and gentlemen :tu

I guess mostly I'm sad that people feel they need to look to books to learn how to be ladies and gentlemen and men and women of God :( This is the Titus 2 woman's role

ALL of my children will learn how to cook. :)

[AngelBee]

Right, it's not either or. But you also must agree that if you really want to learn something *well enough to be good at it* it takes a lot of time and effort, and you do have to prioritize.... SOME things have to come before other things. I personally would love about 10 different degrees, but I don't have the time to learn everything for them :grin So yeah, I would hope "advanced cooking" would come before "advanced knot tying", unless the kid had just a burning interest in the latter. It's just practical.


But how long does it take to learn cooking, let's say? Or balancing a checkbook? These are necessary chores, not life's purpose. :shrug

C

It is part of my life's purpose as a wife. mother, and keeper of the home. :grin

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears

[heartofjoy]

I guess mostly I'm sad that people feel they need to look to books to learn how to be ladies and gentlemen and men and women of God This is the Titus 2 woman's role

I have searched and prayed for a Titus 2 woman to come into my life. So far, nothing. The women I see that could fulfill these roles are unapproachable or too busy. I appreciate the Titus 2 women who write books on the art of homemaking/childraising/marriage because I didn't learn how to do these things from my mother, and no one else is volunteering to help me.

[AngelBee]

:mrgreen I understand what you're saying. But it's impossible to have time to do EVERYTHING, really. All I mean is, I would prefer that my kids be really good at XYZ than vaguely familiar with ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRST....... etc. And depending on what Kid A or Kid B wants for their future, that would determine where we concentrated... and if it happens to be "Traditionally gender roled", that's ok. I wouldn't MAKE my DD go out and hunt, just because it's part of her (currently imaginary) brother's curriculum as well. See?


I think the real issue comes when you have a girl that isn't interested in anything on the girl's list, and a boy that doesn't want to hunt. Then what? That certainly would have been the case with me as a child. That list would have really messed me up. These authors will make them feel like less of a girl or less of a boy, will you allow that influence in your home? Will you push your children to be different than they were born to be? What if it happens to be different than traditionally gender roled?

Then you adapt the curriculum to fit their needs....just as you would do with any other homeschooling curr. :shrug

[AngelBee]

Here's my personal experience:

I was raised to have a career. The assumption was that if I got married, then fine, I wouldn't need one neccessarily, but I needed to be prepared just in case my spouse became disabled or passed away or what have you anyway. The assumption was also that I might not neccessarily get married.

My mother was not domestic *at all*. Her mother was like a combination of Grace Kelly and June Cleaver. Very stylish, beautiful, and sophisticated, and always the perfect homemaker. Even sewed matching clothed for her kids Very well. She was featured in newspaper articles in her hometown of Nashville, Tennessee for her cooking and for her home's decor. She and my grandfather were the perfect couple with the perfect marriage, and they were very glamorous and cosmopolitain and modern at the same time. My mother knew how to be the perfect housewife, but she always said she'd prefer to read or listen to or play/sing music. My mother was/is multi-talented. SHe was an opera singer who got starring roles, she was an actress who got starring roles. She played piano and guitar. She was an artist as well. Her talents would take her away from the family at night, which wasn't at all my father's idea of family life. I remember seeing her in the role of Maria in "The Sound of Music" when I was 4, and it was sooo spectacular to me to see my mommy up on stage and so beautiful and so talented. It didn't bother me. I was proud of her and din't notie her going to rehearsals and stuff that much. I even got to be IN an opera with her when i was 5. It was "La Boheme" and one of the characters got to smash a plate right on stage. That was quite something. :mrgreen

So as a result of all this, I grew up knowing zip about domestic anything. We lived in stacks at home, and usualyy ate some stirfried pile of something over rice for dinner. No biggie to me. But it really hit hard when I got married and immediately started having kids and realized I had *no clue* how to run a household, or that it was even neccessary to know how. I have been married for 6 years, and feel just now like I am starting to get a hold of things. But it's been tough. Especially since I spent so much blood swat and tears trying to become a ballerina/choreographer throughout those crucial jr. high/highschool years. Being in gifted programs I always was told I was the cream of the crop and was expected to do something stupendous career-wise, so that's what i focused on. And for me it had to be creative. So I tried all sorts of things once I gave up my ballet identity and went for Graphic Design. I loved it and had found where I finally fit in. I worked my tail off trying to be the best one of those in my class, and then when I got married at the end of my junior year, I realized at last what was important in life, and it wasn't identifying myself with a career. But it was a BIG shock to find out that what I had thus far invested my life in was going to be pretty close to useless to me when I found myself in the depths of despair and cluelessness with a house and babies to take care of. I was now not only not the best at what I was doing, but I was lost. I was BAD at it. It's been humbling. But I don't want my daughter to be where I have been. Housekeeping should just be second nature, because everyone lives and has to do it, then all the fun stuff can be done with far less stress and anxiety. That's my vision for it anyway, and I am starting to get there.

I have a friend who is an ObGyn, who was raised mennonite, and she can do anything domestic VERY well. She doesn't have to spend a whole lot of time doing researh first to figure it out. She can just do it because she knows how already and this enables her to spend so much more of her time on other things. I would love to get to that point, but I started off so far behind.

Anyway, my 2 cents. :) DOn't think I'll come down on either side of the fence, I don't think it's neccessary.

Thank you for sharing :hug

[AngelBee]

I haven't read all the replies, but I read the boys' and girls' curriclulum. All I can say is ick, ick, ick. I will teach ALL my children, boys or girls, to keep a home and balance the budget, and also all the science and math and nature and sports they can handle.

Yes there are differences in the genders. But all young women deserve a fair shake at a career, if that's what they want to do, and all men deserve a fair shake at being able to keep their homes and their finances. My husband and I have a division of labor, but that' s our choice, not our upbringing.

It's yucky and gender-discriminatory, and I hated reading about it.

How does learning to sew, cook, and do laundry make her any less in the work world or going to college? :shrug

[AngelBee]

Using one verse is a questionable way to form an entire opinion on gender roles. I wonder if Deborah wasn't a woman then or some of the other women in the Bible. People write their interpretation of verses their way all the time.... someone mentioned the helpmeet verse. You know Debi Pearl has a whole book on that, its "wonderful" (um not). :shifty

There are many verses in the Bible that support gender roles.

I will try to make a list. :)

[Teribear]

I haven't read the whole thread but I will say we LOVE the Keepers at Home handbook and use it like "Girl Scouts" around here. We borrow badges from the "Contenders" book that interest us as well. My DD is very proud of her Keepers Sash and her pins that she's earned. Its a really neat club and the overtones are what the leaders make of it.

[Benjaminswife]

Using one verse is a questionable way to form an entire opinion on gender roles. I wonder if Deborah wasn't a woman then or some of the other women in the Bible. People write their interpretation of verses their way all the time.... someone mentioned the helpmeet verse. You know Debi Pearl has a whole book on that, its "wonderful" (um not). :shifty

There are many verses in the Bible that support gender roles.

I will try to make a list. :)


I would love to see your list :)

[illinoismommy]

Using one verse is a questionable way to form an entire opinion on gender roles. I wonder if Deborah wasn't a woman then or some of the other women in the Bible. People write their interpretation of verses their way all the time.... someone mentioned the helpmeet verse. You know Debi Pearl has a whole book on that, its "wonderful" (um not). :shifty

There are many verses in the Bible that support gender roles.

I will try to make a list. :)


I would love to see your list :)


I was going to say not to bother because really, I've read the Bible a lot.... and I have a memory like a steel trap.... but if it interests her, then feel free ;)

[cklewis]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C

[DebraBaker]

I think there is a difference between some of the women here feeling fulfillment in being a mother and home keeper and the philosophy that women *must* fulfil these roles in order to be biblical.

I think all of the children should be taught basic house keeping and cooking and bookkeeping skills regardless of gender. The rest of the stuff should be interest-driven.

[Quiteria]

I haven't read the whole thread but I will say we LOVE the Keepers at Home handbook and use it like "Girl Scouts" around here. We borrow badges from the "Contenders" book that interest us as well. My DD is very proud of her Keepers Sash and her pins that she's earned. Its a really neat club and the overtones are what the leaders make of it.


Getting back to the original topic, I think this is about what I would do, sort of a Girl Scout project approach. I think that having a list/curriculum of suggested subjects and activities that correspond would save me a lot of time and help motivate me to get around to homemaking skills (and help me know where to start as I didn't learn young myself). Whether I really used it 5 days a week, or more likely 2-3 times a week, or once a week, would depend on the rest of our hs routine, but I like having a curriculum planned out instead of hunting though the library or craft store at random. I could buy it used to avoid giving $ to them if I didn't like their overall philosophy, and supplement with library books, but just walking into a library or craft store blank is a little too much creative freedom for me...I need a starting point, to be practical about how I function best without procrastinating by just browsing. I'm very ecelectic about what gets used in the end, so I'm not sure if dd would really get the idea that she has to do all this stuff--I'd probably just pick and choose less than half, so I don't think she'd see it as 100% mandatory that she must do it all to be a real woman. :shrug But if it were really icky and overt about promoting that message, then I suppose I'd have to look for something similar by better authors. I've been following this post hoping that people who have read the curriculum will give me a general idea good enough to decide whether I'd ever want the local bookstore to special order it, or if it's really the bottom of the barrel. :scratch

I CERTAINLY would not consider it to be a whole curriculum no matter what they teach for budgeting--we would still do algebra and such, as another poster expressed concern. I have heard of icky hs situations that don't balance this stuff with academics, but I would just want this stuff to be a part of the overall picture.

[AprilBr]

My DH is a pretty macho guy, he used to play army as a kid, played with GI Joes, knows how to work on a car, play sports, was a Army Ranger BUT HE taught me how to change a diaper and thread my sewing machine. And he is the most loving father to our 3 girls. I believe that there are specific gender-related things I would like to teach my children. I was never taught them. I even taught myself how to cook. But my oldest LOVES to be outside, dig in the dirt, catch bugs, etc, but she also loves dolls, play makeup, dress up. This is what she says she wants to be when she grows up:

Paleontologist
Geologist
Veterinarian
Astronaut
Cowgirl
chef
teacher
entomologist

and also a mommy but she said that she would have to take her kids to work with her, she wouldn't leave them. :) Also she wants to be something different each day. We go with her interests and obviously she is interested in A LOT. But we will teach her to do things like change a tire, car work, stuff like that because a man is not around every minute and sometimes we can't or don't want to wait for them, so us women have to do things ourselves. This is what we got her for her birthday on Monday. It wasn't EXACTLY this, we put one together ourselves which was a lot cheaper.

http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n46/peridotmama/Rockhoundbp.jpg

But this weekend she will be getting a Sleeping Beauty Dressup thing, play makeup and nail polish, and some real kid size cookware. That is all she asked for.

[ChristianMother27]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C


well i can see keeping a neat house as a ministry - a ministry to your children and husband. :shrug I think that it DOES minister to my family when i keep a neat house - things are more organized and cleaner and then my family is happier because it's not disgusting being in my house. i think taking care of my husband and children comes FIRST, mind you... but i don't think that just because they come first negates that keeping a clean house and cooking and what not is a ministry.

ministry: Gospel-inspired activity (generally referring to an individual rather than a group), with an emphasis on the attitude and approach brought to it.

maybe that's a weird POV though i dunno :giggle :shrug

[cklewis]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C


well i can see keeping a neat house as a ministry - a ministry to your children and husband. :shrug I think that it DOES minister to my family when i keep a neat house - things are more organized and cleaner and then my family is happier because it's not disgusting being in my house. i think taking care of my husband and children comes FIRST, mind you... but i don't think that just because they come first negates that keeping a clean house and cooking and what not is a ministry.

ministry: Gospel-inspired activity (generally referring to an individual rather than a group), with an emphasis on the attitude and approach brought to it.

maybe that's a weird POV though i dunno :giggle :shrug



I didn't say otherwise. I said that when it all comes out in the wash, people are more important than things. Taking care of things are just chores. Taking care of people is a ministry.

We've talked about this too much before, and I'm really not up to drag that all out again. :shrug

C

[ChristianMother27]

ok sorry. i understood what you wrote to mean that chores weren't a ministry. sorry if i misunderstood

[AngelBee]

Using one verse is a questionable way to form an entire opinion on gender roles. I wonder if Deborah wasn't a woman then or some of the other women in the Bible. People write their interpretation of verses their way all the time.... someone mentioned the helpmeet verse. You know Debi Pearl has a whole book on that, its "wonderful" (um not). :shifty

There are many verses in the Bible that support gender roles.

I will try to make a list. :)


I would love to see your list :)


I was going to say not to bother because really, I've read the Bible a lot.... and I have a memory like a steel trap.... but if it interests her, then feel free ;)

What exactly are you saying? :scratch

[illinoismommy]

that its okay, don't worry about getting me a list... thanks :-)

[AngelBee]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C

I do not agree with you. I consider it all to be ministry.

If I was signed up to feed homeless people and my child was sick, I would cancell. Does that make feeding the homeless a chore? Of course not!

[cklewis]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C

I do not agree with you. I consider it all to be ministry.

If I was signed up to feed homeless people and my child was sick, I would cancell. Does that make feeding the homeless a chore? Of course not!


BUt washing the pots, peeling the potatoes, and chopping the carrots *are* chores. You're misreading what I've said here. It's giving of yourself that's the ministry. You might get a charge out of, say, making soup or setting the tables, but that is NOT the ministry. It's not. I really think anyone is kidding herself to say that her life's work is folding napkins.

As moms, sure, we get spit up on, washing piles of clothes, mend clothes, clean toilets. But that's not our ministry. Those may be the means of minstry, but they aren't the end itself.

Again -- we don't minister to things. We minister to people and sometimes that involves things.

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.

C

[ChristianMother27]

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.


Matthew 6:19-21 (King James Version)
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

for my part i don't see how seeing being a housewife as a ministry or not is applicable to laying up treasures on earth or heaven :scratch i don't consider it either. i see it as a service i do :shrug i *think* i hear what you're saying camille in regards to we're not saying "here pot, let me show you God's love by cleaning you" but rather "family, let me show YOU God's love by cleaning this pot" i just don't see *that* in these versus. My ears are open to learn though as always :) :popcorn

[illinoismommy]

:popcorn well this is interesting.... I don't consider housework to be a ministry, but I don't mind if other people want to see it that way.... really I consider myself "ministering" to my husband and son (and baby in tummy.... which sometimes means I have to lay on the couch these days :giggle )....

[SouthPaw]

here pot, let me show you God's love by cleaning you

:lol

[cklewis]

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.


Matthew 6:19-21 (King James Version)
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

for my part i don't see how seeing being a housewife as a ministry or not is applicable to laying up treasures on earth or heaven :scratch i don't consider it either. i see it as a service i do :shrug i *think* i hear what you're saying camille in regards to we're not saying "here pot, let me show you God's love by cleaning you" but rather "family, let me show YOU God's love by cleaning this pot" i just don't see *that* in these versus. My ears are open to learn though as always :) :popcorn



Okay. Here goes.

In the 1950s the govt *told* women that their life's purpose was to have the cleanest floors in town. They believed it. Our g-mothers' identity was in their house WORK. If their house was spotless and dinner was on the table promptly at 6, they were good wives and mothers. It doesn't take long to find proof for that -- read any ladies magazine from that era.

That was a total lie. That's devoting your life to THINGS -- laying up treasure on earth -- where the bugs will crawl back in by morning or the whole thing may go up "POOF!" in flames.

No, motherhood is a ministry to people. Keeping a clean house, fixing a nice dinner is a means to minister to my family, it's not the purpose in itself. If I minister grace to my family, that is permanent and everlasting. And it may mean that the toys on my bedroom floor don't get picked up right away.

There's tons of ways of saying this. We're to be Marys not Marthas. Martha Stewart's a lousy wife and mother (but a lovely housekeeper and cook). People are more important than things. Lay up treasures in heaven. "Dishes can wait. . . ."

I've discovered over the years of having this discussion over and over and over with people that when they disagree, they are disagreeing with what they think I'm saying not with what I'm actually saying. :shrug People hear me saying that housekeeping is irrelevant. I'm not. Never have.

C

[ChristianMother27]

i think i understand you better now. i agree that if your priority is on the chores then it's not good. i was going from the viewpoint of that doing the chores was a ministry to the family, but that of course family came first. chores was just a way to show love for your family.

[cklewis]

chores was just a way to show love for your family.

:yes

C

[DebraBaker]

But why assign chore-doing to the female gender?

I don't get it. I never signed up to be the scullery maid.

Mother, yes, when I stayed with my children fulltime, it was to minister to them.

My husband, quite frankly, doesn't need to have a maid, he's a grown man without special needs, he can wipe his own bum and pick up after himself.

If I pick up his plate and load it into the dishwasher, it isn't because I'm a woman, I'm going that way and will pick up his dish, too.

But you better darn tooting know that I would be put out of sorts if I was doing all the picking up and He simply picked up his proverbial feet while I vacumed the rug.

[ChristianMother27]

well *for me* (at least in one week when i'm officially a SAHM) i consider my chores to be the "8 hours" i put in a day. i don't work 8 hours a day while DH is at work (on the weekends and holidays i've never worked 8 straight hours doing housework). i spread my "40 hours a week" over time so that yes i'm doing things all the time, but i'm not doing it all at one time if that makes sense.

and FTR, while i wash the dishes, my DH will bring them to me if he's taken them to the computer or whatever. also he mows and takes care of the trash. i figure that the trade offs are fair. i don't consider myself a scullery maid at all. i consider doing the housework my job and it's a job i enjoy doing - now as with anyone job i think they'd RATHER be doing leisure, but as far as jobs go it's a good one and one that i'd happily do.

[illinoismommy]

Yup I do the housework because I am a SAHM. When I was working full time and my husband was in college part-time he did the housework. Aren't we shocking? :giggle

[cklewis]

If you're staying home with your tot and you're doing 8 hours of chores? Uh. . . . that just ain't gonna happen. There are too many bugs to catch and pictures to color and picture books to read.

C

[ChristianMother27]

If you're staying home with your tot and you're doing 8 hours of chores? Uh. . . . that just ain't gonna happen. There are too many bugs to catch and pictures to color and picture books to read.

C


:lol not just chores. 8 hours of "work" and usually not even that much if i do a good job :lol

and don't forget "too many dances to dance" phew

[Benjaminswife]

I do 90% of chores because I am home. If I was working it would be a different story.

[Benjaminswife]

I don't spend 8 hours on chores. I do what I can in between everything else. Seems to work out okay for me. I love my life (well except DH being gone) but other than that I wouldn't rather be doing anything else.

But I am also the type you won't find making her own bread and looking like Martha Stewart.

[ChristianMother27]

But I am also the type you won't find making her own bread and looking like Martha Stewart.


:giggle i make my own bread but we have a bread machine so i guess i'm cheating ;)

[AngelBee]

It is not just mundain tasks that I do. It is my ministry. :happytears


We've gone round and round about this before. But let's be clear. We all know that our ministry is to our families -- not to pots and pans. :) Chores are just chores. They are. They aren't ministering to people. That's why we drop everything when a baby is sick. Because the baby is more important than the chores.

C

I do not agree with you. I consider it all to be ministry.

If I was signed up to feed homeless people and my child was sick, I would cancell. Does that make feeding the homeless a chore? Of course not!


BUt washing the pots, peeling the potatoes, and chopping the carrots *are* chores. You're misreading what I've said here. It's giving of yourself that's the ministry. You might get a charge out of, say, making soup or setting the tables, but that is NOT the ministry. It's not. I really think anyone is kidding herself to say that her life's work is folding napkins.

As moms, sure, we get spit up on, washing piles of clothes, mend clothes, clean toilets. But that's not our ministry. Those may be the means of minstry, but they aren't the end itself.

Again -- we don't minister to things. We minister to people and sometimes that involves things.

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.

C

My "treasure" is in doing everything I can to serve my family. I count dishes in that. Are the dishes themselves the tresure? No. But the happiness brought to my family as a result of the dishes being done is. :heart

[AngelBee]

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.


Matthew 6:19-21 (King James Version)
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

for my part i don't see how seeing being a housewife as a ministry or not is applicable to laying up treasures on earth or heaven :scratch i don't consider it either. i see it as a service i do :shrug i *think* i hear what you're saying camille in regards to we're not saying "here pot, let me show you God's love by cleaning you" but rather "family, let me show YOU God's love by cleaning this pot" i just don't see *that* in these versus. My ears are open to learn though as always :) :popcorn


:yes

[SouthPaw]

i think this is a heated agreement :scratch

[AngelBee]

I still can't believe that anyone finds controversy in this. It's just Matthew 6:19-21.


Matthew 6:19-21 (King James Version)
19Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

for my part i don't see how seeing being a housewife as a ministry or not is applicable to laying up treasures on earth or heaven :scratch i don't consider it either. i see it as a service i do :shrug i *think* i hear what you're saying camille in regards to we're not saying "here pot, let me show you God's love by cleaning you" but rather "family, let me show YOU God's love by cleaning this pot" i just don't see *that* in these versus. My ears are open to learn though as always :) :popcorn



Okay. Here goes.

In the 1950s the govt *told* women that their life's purpose was to have the cleanest floors in town. They believed it. Our g-mothers' identity was in their house WORK. If their house was spotless and dinner was on the table promptly at 6, they were good wives and mothers. It doesn't take long to find proof for that -- read any ladies magazine from that era.

That was a total lie. That's devoting your life to THINGS -- laying up treasure on earth -- where the bugs will crawl back in by morning or the whole thing may go up "POOF!" in flames.

No, motherhood is a ministry to people. Keeping a clean house, fixing a nice dinner is a means to minister to my family, it's not the purpose in itself. If I minister grace to my family, that is permanent and everlasting. And it may mean that the toys on my bedroom floor don't get picked up right away.

There's tons of ways of saying this. We're to be Marys not Marthas. Martha Stewart's a lousy wife and mother (but a lovely housekeeper and cook). People are more important than things. Lay up treasures in heaven. "Dishes can wait. . . ."

I've discovered over the years of having this discussion over and over and over with people that when they disagree, they are disagreeing with what they think I'm saying not with what I'm actually saying. :shrug People hear me saying that housekeeping is irrelevant. I'm not. Never have.

C

This only makes sense if women only do housework and nothing eles.

I do more then clean for my family as a ministry....cleaning is a PART of it....not the minisrty as a whole. :grin

[ChristianMother27]

i think this is a heated agreement :scratch


:laughtears i think so :giggle

[AngelBee]

But why assign chore-doing to the female gender?

I don't get it. I never signed up to be the scullery maid.

Mother, yes, when I stayed with my children fulltime, it was to minister to them.

My husband, quite frankly, doesn't need to have a maid, he's a grown man without special needs, he can wipe his own bum and pick up after himself.

If I pick up his plate and load it into the dishwasher, it isn't because I'm a woman, I'm going that way and will pick up his dish, too.

But you better darn tooting know that I would be put out of sorts if I was doing all the picking up and He simply picked up his proverbial feet while I vacumed the rug.

No where in the Bible that I am aware of does it call men to be keepers of the home.

[ChristianMother27]

But why assign chore-doing to the female gender?

I don't get it. I never signed up to be the scullery maid.

Mother, yes, when I stayed with my children fulltime, it was to minister to them.

My husband, quite frankly, doesn't need to have a maid, he's a grown man without special needs, he can wipe his own bum and pick up after himself.

If I pick up his plate and load it into the dishwasher, it isn't because I'm a woman, I'm going that way and will pick up his dish, too.

But you better darn tooting know that I would be put out of sorts if I was doing all the picking up and He simply picked up his proverbial feet while I vacumed the rug.

No where in the Bible that I am aware of does it call men to be keepers of the home.


right. though i admit i appreciate it much when DH pitches in :D

[AngelBee]

well *for me* (at least in one week when i'm officially a SAHM) i consider my chores to be the "8 hours" i put in a day. i don't work 8 hours a day while DH is at work (on the weekends and holidays i've never worked 8 straight hours doing housework). i spread my "40 hours a week" over time so that yes i'm doing things all the time, but i'm not doing it all at one time if that makes sense.

and FTR, while i wash the dishes, my DH will bring them to me if he's taken them to the computer or whatever. also he mows and takes care of the trash. i figure that the trade offs are fair. i don't consider myself a scullery maid at all. i consider doing the housework my job and it's a job i enjoy doing - now as with anyone job i think they'd RATHER be doing leisure, but as far as jobs go it's a good one and one that i'd happily do.
:tu

[AngelBee]

i think this is a heated agreement :scratch

No...I am not heated. :O

[ChristianMother27]

i think this is a heated agreement :scratch

No...I am not heated. :O


:laughtears

[AngelBee]

But why assign chore-doing to the female gender?

I don't get it. I never signed up to be the scullery maid.

Mother, yes, when I stayed with my children fulltime, it was to minister to them.

My husband, quite frankly, doesn't need to have a maid, he's a grown man without special needs, he can wipe his own bum and pick up after himself.

If I pick up his plate and load it into the dishwasher, it isn't because I'm a woman, I'm going that way and will pick up his dish, too.

But you better darn tooting know that I would be put out of sorts if I was doing all the picking up and He simply picked up his proverbial feet while I vacumed the rug.

No where in the Bible that I am aware of does it call men to be keepers of the home.


right. though i admit i appreciate it much when DH pitches in :D

:yes As do I. Just like he appreciates when I save extra money in the budget or earn money on the side. :)

[cklewis]

Angela -- you're assumng I'm saying something I'm not. We are having a heated agreement. Read what I'm saying not what you think I'm saying.

C

[AngelBee]

Angela -- you're assumng I'm saying something I'm not. We are having a heated agreement. Read what I'm saying not what you think I'm saying.

C

I did read what you are saying.

I am sorry that you feel this is heated :hug

[cklewis]

Angela -- you're assumng I'm saying something I'm not. We are having a heated agreement. Read what I'm saying not what you think I'm saying.

C

I did read what you are saying.

I am sorry that you feel this is heated :hug


HOney -- that's a joke of mine. ;) My DH uses it all the time when we have an intense conversation and we agreed all along. :grin THat's why Kathrine used it. Heated isn't bad. It's just exciting. :)

:hug

C

[AngelBee]

Angela -- you're assumng I'm saying something I'm not. We are having a heated agreement. Read what I'm saying not what you think I'm saying.

C

I did read what you are saying.

I am sorry that you feel this is heated :hug


HOney -- that's a joke of mine. ;) My DH uses it all the time when we have an intense conversation and we agreed all along. :grin THat's why Kathrine used it. Heated isn't bad. It's just exciting. :)

:hug

C

Oh... :O

I was wondering... :scratch :laughtears

[ArmsOfLove]

Actually, if you read the Proverbs 31 passage the woman wasn't doing all the work herself. My children do a lot and my dh does a ton around the house. I set the course for it :tu I let him know what needs to be done, what I didn't get to that day, etc., and he does a lot of stuff around here inside and out. One thing that is currently shifted into his realm is making dinner. The twins get very fussy at night and after a long day with everyone dh both gives me a break and I end up nursing them when they need it and often getting them to sleep early. I love cooking dinner so it's not like I don't want to, and sometimes I cook things during the day we can eat, but dh is doing this at this season :)

[AngelBee]

Actually, if you read the Proverbs 31 passage the woman wasn't doing all the work herself. My children do a lot and my dh does a ton around the house. I set the course for it :tu I let him know what needs to be done, what I didn't get to that day, etc., and he does a lot of stuff around here inside and out. One thing that is currently shifted into his realm is making dinner. The twins get very fussy at night and after a long day with everyone dh both gives me a break and I end up nursing them when they need it and often getting them to sleep early. I love cooking dinner so it's not like I don't want to, and sometimes I cook things during the day we can eat, but dh is doing this at this season :)



Yes....but she oversaw all of teh affairs of her home and she was a diligent worker. :heart

[DebraBaker]

One must bear in mind that in the culture of the time, the only option for women was to be home based.

The Bible wasn't written to be counter culture (hence the tolerence for evils like slavery,) and just because the scripture encourages older, more experienced women to excel in the one arena in which they were permitted some influence does not translate as all women should be keepers of their homes.

We have made tremendous social advances for women over the years and relegating women to house or home work is throwing us back to harsh times.

And my husband doesn't pitch in, he's doing what he does as a member of the family. He doesn't babysit his own children, either.

[ChristianMother27]

One must bear in mind that in the culture of the time, the only option for women was to be home based.

The Bible wasn't written to be counter culture (hence the tolerence for evils like slavery,) and just because the scripture encourages older, more experienced women to excel in the one arena in which they were permitted some influence does not translate as all women should be keepers of their homes.

We have made tremendous social advances for women over the years and relegating women to house or home work is throwing us back to harsh times.

And my husband doesn't pitch in, he's doing what he does as a member of the family. He doesn't babysit his own children, either.


and this is where i get :scratch - the culture argument trumps again and i just get :sad2 i don't agree with it, but i don't know how to defend my POV against it either :scratch :shrug :cry

[erinee]

One must bear in mind that in the culture of the time, the only option for women was to be home based.

The Bible wasn't written to be counter culture (hence the tolerence for evils like slavery,) and just because the scripture encourages older, more experienced women to excel in the one arena in which they were permitted some influence does not translate as all women should be keepers of their homes.

We have made tremendous social advances for women over the years and relegating women to house or home work is throwing us back to harsh times.

And my husband doesn't pitch in, he's doing what he does as a member of the family. He doesn't babysit his own children, either.


and this is where i get :scratch - the culture argument trumps again and i just get :sad2 i don't agree with it, but i don't know how to defend my POV against it either :scratch :shrug :cry


Jen, there is no need to cry. :hug If you are convicted that way, that's how you should live. God is not a God of confusion. There's no need to defend your POV on this issue. Don't worry about what other people do, learn as much as you can from God's Word and do the best you can with that. Obviously others here have come to different conclusions based on their studies -- that's okay! None of our salvation hangs on these things, and we shouldn't get hung up on them, either. But I think you need to remember it's not your job to change someone else's mind -- it's fun and enlightening to discuss these things, but in the end most people here at GCM know their Bibles pretty well and are in communion with God. If a mind needs to be changed, let God do it.

Personally -- I just don't know. I can see both sides. I tend to lead towards a more cultural interpretation of these particular versus, but it's hard to sift through it and decide what's cultural and what applies today. I don't worry too much about it, because they are not salvific issues. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, God knows I'm doing the best I can, and that's all that matters to me.

[ChristianMother27]

Personally -- I just don't know. I can see both sides. I tend to lead towards a more cultural interpretation of these particular versus, but it's hard to sift through it and decide what's cultural and what applies today. I don't worry too much about it, because they are not salvific issues. If I'm wrong in my interpretation, God knows I'm doing the best I can, and that's all that matters to me.


yeh i'm the same way. sometimes if i think about it though i'm just all :scratch :shrug how two Christians can interpret the scripture two different ways. i admit, i just do not get the interpreting scripture in light of culture aspect. honestly i probably do it myself :giggle but if i do i don't realize it - but on the issues i DO think about, i can understand why on that area you'd interpret it based on culture, and then in other areas you wouldn't interpret it based on culture. sometimes i feel like it's a contradiction or something.

[RachamMama]

I didn't read all of the thread, but I did sense it was getting a little controversial... ;)

I plan to start some of the activities in the book after our baby is born and our house recovers from the months of bedrest. Dh and ds will probably do the "boy" book as well.

I'm striving to make sure that my children have a well rounded education and that includes homemaking awa academics. My boys can clean and cook (um, we don't hunt :O ), my girls are encouraged to get a degree if they're so inclined. (I actually prefer that they do, but whatever plans God has for them, it's my job to encourage them, not dictate my own agenda)

Coming from a family that thought homemaking was ridiculous, I actually had plans for medical school, I was lost when I start having babies and trying to take care of our home. I also was a recovering feminist (in the liberal sense of the word) and was in shock for a few years.

We'll selectively use the books, because I don't agree w/ the patriachal model but I don't want to label the whole thing as evil. Honestly I've yet to read a book other than the Bible that I've ever agreed w/ all of.

[ChristianMother27]

I also was a recovering feminist (in the liberal sense of the word) and was in shock for a few years.


i doubt anyone on this board could tell this from reading my posts but this was me too! :giggle funny what society shapes your views to be...

[AngelBee]

One must bear in mind that in the culture of the time, the only option for women was to be home based.

The Bible wasn't written to be counter culture (hence the tolerence for evils like slavery,) and just because the scripture encourages older, more experienced women to excel in the one arena in which they were permitted some influence does not translate as all women should be keepers of their homes.

We have made tremendous social advances for women over the years and relegating women to house or home work is throwing us back to harsh times.

And my husband doesn't pitch in, he's doing what he does as a member of the family. He doesn't babysit his own children, either.

God is all powerful. He could have chosen to have the Bible written anyway he wanted. :shrug

I do not dismiss what is says based on, "Oh...that was a long time ago. Things change."

An all knowing God would have been FULLY aware of how things were going to change when the Word was written. He chose what is in the Bible. That is what I will follow....regardless of society differnces now.

[ChristianMother27]

God is all powerful.

it was understanding this fact that actually helped me get over the teachings of today's society that says "things have changed". by accepting the fact that yes God DID know what today (and what 50 years from now) is like, i also find it hard to understand why societal changes should negate the teachings of the Bible. I realize God doesn't specifically mention "thou shalt not spend all thy time on computers" or something like that, and in THAT sense i could see how you'd have to pull scripture to apply to certain modern areas of your life, but outright dismissing something that CAN apply today and just doesn't because of the worldview seems off to me.

[DebraBaker]

Interpertations of verses in scripture can be affected by the translations.

Look at the "Pain in Childbirth," verses, there is a lot of cultural assumptions within translations.

There are also cultural elements that are difficult to transpose upon our own culture.

[ChristianMother27]

Interpertations of verses in scripture can be affected by the translations.

Look at the "Pain in Childbirth," verses, there is a lot of cultural assumptions within translations.

There are also cultural elements that are difficult to transpose upon our own culture.




hey can you start a new thread with this somewhere? i have lots of questions that don't pertain to homeschooling about this :giggle i'd do it but not sure what all forums you have access to. :D

[AngelBee]

Interpertations of verses in scripture can be affected by the translations.

Look at the "Pain in Childbirth," verses, there is a lot of cultural assumptions within translations.

There are also cultural elements that are difficult to transpose upon our own culture.



I agree that the translations do effect interpertations. I am reading two different versions of the Bible right now and on a couple of occations have been :scratch

[pneumaphile]

God is all powerful.

it was understanding this fact that actually helped me get over the teachings of today's society that says "things have changed". by accepting the fact that yes God DID know what today (and what 50 years from now) is like, i also find it hard to understand why societal changes should negate the teachings of the Bible. I realize God doesn't specifically mention "thou shalt not spend all thy time on computers" or something like that, and in THAT sense i could see how you'd have to pull scripture to apply to certain modern areas of your life, but outright dismissing something that CAN apply today and just doesn't because of the worldview seems off to me.
Yeah, but that can so be misinterpreted to our detriment! That's why we use a historico-grammatical hermeneutic to interpret scripture. You have to read the Bible in light of the times it was written and the grammar of the Hebrew or Greek.

For example, Paul told women to cover their heads because even though God doesn't give a whit whether a woman's head is covered, he's more concerned that they be as much like the nonbelievers as possible so as to win them over. Now if we go around saying you have to cover your head to be with Christians in church today, we're having the exact effect the women who weren't covering their heads had in today's world! People are going to think you're weird, and you may win fewer to Christ!

So I think it's super-important to not just know the words (cover your head) but also know the whole context, what the author was trying to say (don't weird out the nonbelievers, we're trying to win them!). Thus the importance of knowing the culture of the time the Bible was written. Not to discount what God was saying, but to completely understand it!

[ChristianMother27]

i'm still learning on the headcovering thing, though the other day i was reading that whole passage and it said that a woman's hair was given as a covering so i dunno. i'm sure this issue has been debated here before though :lol

[AngelBee]

God is all powerful.

it was understanding this fact that actually helped me get over the teachings of today's society that says "things have changed". by accepting the fact that yes God DID know what today (and what 50 years from now) is like, i also find it hard to understand why societal changes should negate the teachings of the Bible. I realize God doesn't specifically mention "thou shalt not spend all thy time on computers" or something like that, and in THAT sense i could see how you'd have to pull scripture to apply to certain modern areas of your life, but outright dismissing something that CAN apply today and just doesn't because of the worldview seems off to me.
Yeah, but that can so be misinterpreted to our detriment! That's why we use a historico-grammatical hermeneutic to interpret scripture. You have to read the Bible in light of the times it was written and the grammar of the Hebrew or Greek.

For example, Paul told women to cover their heads because even though God doesn't give a whit whether a woman's head is covered, he's more concerned that they be as much like the nonbelievers as possible so as to win them over. Now if we go around saying you have to cover your head to be with Christians in church today, we're having the exact effect the women who weren't covering their heads had in today's world! People are going to think you're weird, and you may win fewer to Christ!

So I think it's super-important to not just know the words (cover your head) but also know the whole context, what the author was trying to say (don't weird out the nonbelievers, we're trying to win them!). Thus the importance of knowing the culture of the time the Bible was written. Not to discount what God was saying, but to completely understand it!

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.

[AngelBee]

i'm still learning on the headcovering thing, though the other day i was reading that whole passage and it said that a woman's hair was given as a covering so i dunno. i'm sure this issue has been debated here before though :lol

These are some of the scriptures that to me sound TOTALLY different depending on the translation you are using.

[pneumaphile]

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.
[/quote]I have to agree with you completely! However, I don't think anyone here was advocating doing that - I could be wrong though, this is is a very long thread!

[AngelBee]

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.
I have to agree with you completely! However, I don't think anyone here was advocating doing that - I could be wrong though, this is is a very long thread!
[/quote]
Maybe not here....but usually when "today's culture" is brought up, it becomes a red flag to me.

[Punkie]

You have to take culture into account though, otherwise scripture would contradict itself... especially reading in English

Like this:

1 Corinthians 11:14Does not the very nature of things teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a disgrace to him

and yet

2 Samuel 14: 25 In all Israel there was not a man so highly praised for his handsome appearance as Absalom. From the top of his head to the sole of his foot there was no blemish in him. 26 Whenever he cut the hair of his head—he used to cut his hair from time to time when it became too heavy for him—he would weigh it, and its weight was two hundred shekels by the royal standard.

That's about 7 pounds, right? Not short hair.

Judges 16:19 Having put him to sleep on her lap, she called a man to shave off the seven braids of his hair, and so began to subdue him. And his strength left him.

Um, braided hair is long...

Or how about:

1 Corinthians 11:7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.

Exodus 29:5 Take the garments and dress Aaron with the tunic, the robe of the ephod, the ephod itself and the breastpiece. Fasten the ephod on him by its skillfully woven waistband. 6 Put the turban on his head and attach the sacred diadem to the turban.

Leviticus 8:8 He placed the breastpiece on him and put the Urim and Thummim in the breastpiece. 9 Then he placed the turban on Aaron's head and set the gold plate, the sacred diadem, on the front of it, as the LORD commanded Moses.

So... did God command something to be done (a man's head covered) and then say it was something that ought not be done? Of course not. It is not apparent at a first glance when reading in English though.

[ChristianMother27]

i'm all :scratch about the hair issue :giggle

[Punkie]

Are you confused about what I said or about what God is trying to say?

[ChristianMother27]

Are you confused about what I said or about what God is trying to say?


yes :lol i've never really learned much about the hair-covering issue. :)

[Punkie]

:lol

I was just trying to say that if we're only taking English translations and don't look at culture and Hebraic (and other) traditions, then it really doesn't make much sense. That's why we need to carefully study not only the words, but also the context.

[illinoismommy]

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.


See, and I think its very dangerous when we're legalistic about what they mean and insist that we continue to live like we live in 100 AD Roman culture. After spending 10 years at a church that was very exact about these sorts of things (and I know how to do exegesis, checking Strong's number and looking up Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic meaning, etc.), I felt a great sense of freedom and a weight lift off my shoulders when I started attending a church that recognized the Bible as written in 100 AD. The way some churches cling to those beliefs can come with so much bondage, and can be so unreasonable for the world today. I no longer feel bondage to those parts of the Bible that are IMO clearly cultural.... I am free. That makes me happy. :O Its funny to me what is picked out.... I mean in 1 Corinthians 11 it says "every woman who prays and prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head..." and so the great focus becomes the fact that her head is uncovered. Very rarely do I hear a comment about how it is assumed that the woman prays and prophesies in front of the church. Then there is Paul in another place telling women to be quiet in church. Shall we pray and prophesy or be silent? I wonder how many it occurs to that these were written to specific churches for specific issues within THAT specific church. They were not written to be women's roles for all time. I hear more objections to women's roles than I do for the fact that many churches no longer prophesy at all. :shrug Apparently women's roles is a touchy subject. I am a recovering patriachalist.... I am now a feminist and need no recovery. Thank God for freedom from bondage which he did not enslave me in, simply the culture of my time. Ahh..... okay I can see I am going on a tangent. End here.

[Benjaminswife]

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.


See, and I think its very dangerous when we're legalistic about what they mean and insist that we continue to live like we live in 100 AD Roman culture. After spending 10 years at a church that was very exact about these sorts of things (and I know how to do exegesis, checking Strong's number and looking up Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic meaning, etc.), I felt a great sense of freedom and a weight lift off my shoulders when I started attending a church that recognized the Bible as written in 100 AD. The way some churches cling to those beliefs can come with so much bondage, and can be so unreasonable for the world today. I no longer feel bondage to those parts of the Bible that are IMO clearly cultural.... I am free. That makes me happy. :O Its funny to me what is picked out.... I mean in 1 Corinthians 11 it says "every woman who prays and prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head..." and so the great focus becomes the fact that her head is uncovered. Very rarely do I hear a comment about how it is assumed that the woman prays and prophesies in front of the church. Then there is Paul in another place telling women to be quiet in church. Shall we pray and prophesy or be silent? I wonder how many it occurs to that these were written to specific churches for specific issues within THAT specific church. They were not written to be women's roles for all time. I hear more objections to women's roles than I do for the fact that many churches no longer prophesy at all. :shrug Apparently women's roles is a touchy subject. I am a recovering patriachalist.... I am now a feminist and need no recovery. Thank God for freedom from bondage which he did not enslave me in, simply the culture of my time. Ahh..... okay I can see I am going on a tangent. End here.


You said what I have been thinking. I don't think the Bible was written so we should view it all the same. I think it was written during a certain time with very important ideas and beliefs. I think it is very important to remember when it was written and apply it to our time.

"Eli" by Bill Meyers is a great book about what it would look like if Jesus was born in the 1970s vs when he was born. It would be no biggie for him to hang out with tax collectors these days, but a porn king would have the same affect as a tax collector back then.

[cklewis]

I agree with knowing about the culture the Bible was written in. I just think it is VERY dangerous when we start cutting parts out becasue they no longer apply.
I have to agree with you completely! However, I don't think anyone here was advocating doing that - I could be wrong though, this is is a very long thread!

Maybe not here....but usually when "today's culture" is brought up, it becomes a red flag to me.
[/quote]

Nobody -- NOBODY -- is saying we should throw ANYTHING out.

C

[ChristianMother27]

i guess it's a question then of why is some stuff viewed in light of today's culture and (the way it appears at least) summarily dismissed because it's not applicable in today's culture, whereas other stuff is applicable today regardless (even though "culture" i.e. worldview would dictate something different). for example... we say women's roles aren't just as described in the Bible, or aren't at all like depending on your stance because in today's society women are allowed to work, encouraged to work outside the home, etc. but i don't think anyone would say that going to church is outdated, but it seems to me anyways that popular culture would say don't go to church, why bother, there is no God.

[Katherine]

deleted... oops. :mrgreen

[erinee]

I *think* Janet touched on that, Jen, if I am understanding correctly. If Paul says to one church that women should remain silent in church, but in another he tells them women should pray and prophecy with their heads covered, that is a seeming contradiction until you realize he was speaking to those individual churches. I don't think Paul would contradict himself, would he? So those *must* have been unique situations.

If something is repeated over and over in many different situations (i.e. extramarital sex is wrong), then I think we can safely apply it to today.

Does that sound right? Because I've struggled with it, too, but that seems to me the way to make the distinction.

[illinoismommy]

i guess it's a question then of why is some stuff viewed in light of today's culture and (the way it appears at least) summarily dismissed because it's not applicable in today's culture, whereas other stuff is applicable today regardless (even though "culture" i.e. worldview would dictate something different). for example... we say women's roles aren't just as described in the Bible, or aren't at all like depending on your stance because in today's society women are allowed to work, encouraged to work outside the home, etc. but i don't think anyone would say that going to church is outdated, but it seems to me anyways that popular culture would say don't go to church, why bother, there is no God.


That's quite a parallel to draw :scratch I think its quite safe to say that the church we attend today is not just like the church was 2000 years ago (check Acts and you'll see what I mean). We have projectors, ever changing music, different types of ministry in each generation.... seems to me its been culturally adapted already. :shrug Its just that some Christians accept that women's roles are different, and some still try to stick them into the same culture as the Bible and then wonder why it doesn't work so well. :doh

[illinoismommy]

I *think* Janet touched on that, Jen, if I am understanding correctly. If Paul says to one church that women should remain silent in church, but in another he tells them women should pray and prophecy with their heads covered, that is a seeming contradiction until you realize he was speaking to those individual churches. I don't think Paul would contradict himself, would he? So those *must* have been unique situations.

If something is repeated over and over in many different situations (i.e. extramarital sex is wrong), then I think we can safely apply it to today.

Does that sound right? Because I've struggled with it, too, but that seems to me the way to make the distinction.


Right, that's it.... and I try to get the heart of what Jesus was all about, and if you think about His life.... he was really against "religious" ideas.... so it seems the last thing we should do is start new strict religious ideas like "women must stay at home" and "men must work with their hands because of the curse" .... it can really create bondage. I think there is great value in being at home, I am at home, so that's not what its about.

[Gentle Journey]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch


to accept them - to think them appropriate... at least that's what i mean. my MIL doesn't really "believe in" gender roles meaning that she kept wanting to buy DD boy clothes... and i wanted her in pink and in dresses (but not always in pink dresses :giggle)


Me too. I'm trying to teach DD how to be a good house keeper and DH takes DS out to fix the car. Mind you, DD isn't forbidden from going to fix the car, but she has no intrest. DS isn't forbidden from cleaning or cooking either. I believe that women are to be the keepers of the home and to be home raising kids, as the bible says. And that the men are to be financially supporting the family, which God says is wrong if he isn't. My girls where pink and play with dolls. My boy does not. He plays with cars, trucks and tools, she does not. I haven't so much raised them this way as this is the way they naturally are. God created man and women to compliment each other, to do what the isn't. Man have a hunter, gatherer, provider, protector nature and girls are naturally motherly, nurturing, care providers. I think this is the way God designed us. Different, to fill the void of each other, not over lapping. That said, my boy will be able to make himself a meal and do a load of laundry when he's older and my girls will be able to check their own oil and change a light bulb or whatnot. But I do hope my DD's are SAHM and my DS's are providers.

[Gentle Journey]

well *for me* (at least in one week when i'm officially a SAHM) i consider my chores to be the "8 hours" i put in a day. i don't work 8 hours a day while DH is at work (on the weekends and holidays i've never worked 8 straight hours doing housework). i spread my "40 hours a week" over time so that yes i'm doing things all the time, but i'm not doing it all at one time if that makes sense.

and FTR, while i wash the dishes, my DH will bring them to me if he's taken them to the computer or whatever. also he mows and takes care of the trash. i figure that the trade offs are fair. i don't consider myself a scullery maid at all. i consider doing the housework my job and it's a job i enjoy doing - now as with anyone job i think they'd RATHER be doing leisure, but as far as jobs go it's a good one and one that i'd happily do.


OT sort of- Yay!! I know how much you wanted to be a SAHM :hug

[erinee]

See, you can use your kids as an example, but that's not proof that all kids are wired that way. My 8-year-old ds *loves* to help me bake and cook (my dd does, too). He is much better at cracking eggs than I am. :tu I think his future wife will appreciate that about him.

He also likes to help dh in the garage working on cars. Both my kids love camping and hiking and being outside getting dirty. My 4-year-old daughter is *much* more athletic and, I guess tougher, than my son, though. I think that's because of trying to keep up with him -- see, there is more at play in what makes us who we are than gender.

My daughter loves to play with cars. She also loves superheros. In fact, today we were playing "Bitty Baby meets the Hulk" with her Bitty Baby and one of Zach's action figures. :giggle

I agree that there are differences between boys and girls, but they are not *that* confining. Both my kids have very eclectic and, I think, well-rounded interests.

I just hope that each of my kids has one parent at home with their young children. However they decide to work that out is up to them. :shrug

[erinee]

That's great that you love keeping house -- but what about ALL the women who don't? I don't! I hate it with a passion. I do not do well at decorating and nesting stuff. I mean, I'm just curious how you explain that? You say you like being a housekeeper, but that does not make a case for every woman throughout all of history being limited to that role.

I am a SAHM (sort of, I work but my kids hardly know it), but my "job" is my kids, not housekeeping. We all pitch in on the housekeeping. And yes, it does fall more on me than dh just because I'm there. It just makes sense. But it's NOT my job. When my kids are in school FT, I fully expect that God will have something for me to do outside the home -- that doesn't mean I'll go back to work outside the home FT because I'll still want to be available to my kids (not for housework), but I expect I'll be taking on a huge role at the school or in a ministry at church.

I guess I'm just perplexed that because you enjoy it that is proof to you that this is every woman's Biblical role. :scratch I don't think God would confine anyone to a role that she hates and is unhappy with. I *love* being a mom and am thankful that that role -- I hate keeping house. I'm glad dh doesn't expect me to be good at it just because I have different equipment from him!

[Gentle Journey]

Where did I say I liked it :scratch But God says we are to be keepers of the home. My kids prefer me here. My DH is either working or in school. God says women are to keep the home, so I do. That's not to say DH never helps, he does. But I think it's biblically clear that women are to keep the home and men are to work. My DD talks about all the jobs she'll have. She says she'll have 5! If she wants to work, that he choice. If she wants a university education, that's her choice. If she wants to stay home, that's her choice.

[cklewis]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C

[pneumaphile]

I think what some of us are really missing here is the difference between prescriptive and descriptive.

Just because the Bible describes something happening, doesn't mean we're all supposed to do it! The Bible describes John the Baptist wearing a hair shirt and eating locusts. Does that mean that's what God wants us to do?

Just because it's described in the Bible (the things that were going on around the time it was written) doesn't mean it's prescribed for us in the 20th century!

And then, to complicate matters further, the things that are clearly prescriptive may be prescriptive for only a set group of people (only the apostles, only believers, only deacons, only members of a certain church), while others are prescriptive for all people. So you've got to figure out if the prescription is for you, or if you're trying to take someone else's medicine!

Yes, I believe the Bible (the whole Bible) is God-breathed and useful for teaching, etc. but I don't believe you have to leave your God-given brain at the door and swallow pieces of it without thinking it through/really understanding what God is saying.

[erinee]

Where did I say I liked it

Jen said it. Jen said she considered housework her job and one she enjoys doing. It's great that she enjoys it, but that doesn't make for an argument that it's what God wants all women to do. I enjoy being home with my young children more than anything I've ever done. But when they are gone, I would absolutely despise just "keeping house". :sick It's just not important to me whatsoever.

[erinee]

So you've got to figure out if the prescription is for you, or if you're trying to take someone else's medicine!


Ooooo, I like that! :tu

[illinoismommy]

See, you can use your kids as an example, but that's not proof that all kids are wired that way. My 8-year-old ds *loves* to help me bake and cook (my dd does, too). He is much better at cracking eggs than I am. :tu I think his future wife will appreciate that about him.

He also likes to help dh in the garage working on cars. Both my kids love camping and hiking and being outside getting dirty. My 4-year-old daughter is *much* more athletic and, I guess tougher, than my son, though. I think that's because of trying to keep up with him -- see, there is more at play in what makes us who we are than gender.

My daughter loves to play with cars. She also loves superheros. In fact, today we were playing "Bitty Baby meets the Hulk" with her Bitty Baby and one of Zach's action figures. :giggle

I agree that there are differences between boys and girls, but they are not *that* confining. Both my kids have very eclectic and, I think, well-rounded interests.

I just hope that each of my kids has one parent at home with their young children. However they decide to work that out is up to them. :shrug


Yeah yeah, that. Exactly what she said.

I hate to cook. :shifty But to eat, one must cook.

My son loves to play with his wooden kitchen and metal pots and pans that go with it.... maybe its a sign. :giggle

He also loves his trucks and cars... he parks them all in a row.

He's just a little boy playing with whatever is fun for him.....

When I was a little girl, I did not fit into the typical little girl stereotypes. I said this like 10 pages ago, but I don't feel thats made me less of a wife, mother, or woman. :shrug

[illinoismommy]

I enjoy being home with my young children more than anything I've ever done. But when they are gone, I would absolutely despise just "keeping house". :sick It's just not important to me whatsoever.


Me too.... I'm flying the coop when I'm an empty nester.... of course we're planning to homeschool so its going to be a while :giggle

[Gentle Journey]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C


I guess....I think too many areas of the bible are picked apart to suit one's needs. You could do it at home, but it doesn't says "Be a keeper of the home when you aren't at work" as another example 1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.

As you said though, it's been done. I'm not out to change anyone's mind or have my mind changed. This is just the way I believe, but my children have their free will and can do whatever they feel God leading them too.

[erinee]

When I was a little girl, I did not fit into the typical little girl stereotypes. I said this like 10 pages ago, but I don't feel thats made me less of a wife, mother, or woman.

Absolutely -- on the contrary, I think it's made me a *great* mom. Being the one who is spending the vast majority of time with the kids, I think it's great how I can relate to my son's boyness and show my daughter that a girl can throw a ball as well as any guy. *I'm* the one who plays catch with the kids -- dh isn't at all athletic, and I am very much so. When we went to Yellowstone last year, I was the one who hiked up a mountain trail with our son while dh stayed below with our daughter because it was too hard for her -- it's not that he couldn't do it, he just had no desire to do so.

DH & my son certainly have a bond, but there are things that my son and I like to do together that probably aren't typical mother/son activities. :giggle

[cklewis]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C


I guess....I think too many areas of the bible are picked apart to suit one's needs. You could do it at home, but it doesn't says "Be a keeper of the home when you aren't at work" as another example 1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.

:rolleyes Proverbs 31. And I'm not picking anything apart. There's no need to say that (an accusation often made when a good exegesis is attempted); it's meant as a put-down and it's just not true.

C

[erinee]

I'm not picking anything apart. There's no need to say that (an accusation often made when a good exegesis is attempted); it's meant as a put-down and it's just not true.

C


Yeah, I hate for that accusation to be used here at GCM, of all places. I have never known more God-seeking women than are here. I am not Bible scholar, and I really have no idea what exegesis even is (even though I was supposed to have learned about it in college), but I don't like that being thrown around here. :(

[illinoismommy]

I am surprised by how many Bible women were out and about rather than at home keeping house. :shrug

[Can Dance]

.
1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.




In your very own quote you put the very purpose for his statement "give no occasion to the adversary for reviling". this was because in Roman society, Christians were all ready a concern to the gov't, they were acting quite strangely. but, the behavior of Christians had to reassure the gov't that it wasnt there to cause anarchy or over throw the extremely patirarchal society in which it was founded (though it did eventually accomplish all of these things)

I think the greater question should be: how should we set our selves apart from other people in the world as Christians? that will vary from culture to culture. If I was in India going to a Christian service I would likely cover my head because its custom there. in our culture I think avoiding the appearance of evil (which includes things like pornography, etc) and loving others is more important than making legalistic statements from another culture to our own.
but I am a DEscriptionist, not a PERscriptionist :)

[Katherine]

I know I'm jumping in (14 pages) late here.... but I'm sorta confused by the current path of conversation... :scratch I guess I'm surprised at the implication that doing anything other than being a SAHM is outside of God's instructions/design. :neutral :scratch'

it doesn't says "Be a keeper of the home when you aren't at work"

It also doesn't say, "Be a keeper AT the home and don't do any other kind of work." :shrug

Nor does it mention anything about washing dishes, doing laundry, vacuuming (wait, did they have vacuum cleaners then? :giggle), cooking, etc. In fact, being a "keeper at home" probably looked very different to the women in that culture and very different from the image commonly attributed to it today. I think there's a LOT of cultural and (man-made) religious expectations woven into these passages when we read them as saying that women shouldn't work outside the home and should be responsible for all things domestic (who defines what is "domestic" anyway?) :scratch

as another example 1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.

( My emphasis.) doesn't prohibit it either. :scratch :shrug the KJV uses "guide" and here's the Greek definition:

Definition
to be master (or head) of a house
to rule a household, manage family affairs

I'll be totally honest, here. I'm a SAHM--love it and wouldn't choose anything different... but I have no doubt that there are women who work outside the home who do a better job ruling, guiding, and managing family affairs than I do. :shifty :doh :O

(and--hold on to your hats! :hunh That sounds more like the adjectives used in conservative circles to describe men's role in the home... :P~ :think master? head? rule? Interesting... :think :mrgreen See Theological forum for further discussion ;) )

[Gentle Journey]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C


I guess....I think too many areas of the bible are picked apart to suit one's needs. You could do it at home, but it doesn't says "Be a keeper of the home when you aren't at work" as another example 1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.

:rolleyes Proverbs 31. And I'm not picking anything apart. There's no need to say that (an accusation often made when a good exegesis is attempted); it's meant as a put-down and it's just not true.

C


Oh I didn't mean it as as much of a put down as it came across. I'm sorry. I just mean, I always feel like I'm discussing biblical things with people that say "well it says this, but you could really interpret it that way." Sorry

[Gentle Journey]

I'm not picking anything apart. There's no need to say that (an accusation often made when a good exegesis is attempted); it's meant as a put-down and it's just not true.

C


Yeah, I hate for that accusation to be used here at GCM, of all places. I have never known more God-seeking women than are here. I am not Bible scholar, and I really have no idea what exegesis even is (even though I was supposed to have learned about it in college), but I don't like that being thrown around here. :(


As I said in the previous post, it's coming across wrong. I'm not saying it specifically to GCMers. A lot of my life is discussing biblical stuff. I live on a bible campus and everyone is Chrsitain and all DH's family is. I just find, in general, a lot of people kind of take things and say that it could mean something else. Sorry about that.

[Gentle Journey]

Thanks for keeping it light palil :tu

Anyhoo- Like in all areas, we all very a little. I believe women should be home taking care of the kids and others. Some dont. To each there own. Respectfully backing out of this converstation cause I dont want to arguee. Good night :hug

[ChristianMother27]

That's quite a parallel to draw :scratch I think its quite safe to say that the church we attend today is not just like the church was 2000 years ago (check Acts and you'll see what I mean). We have projectors, ever changing music, different types of ministry in each generation.... seems to me its been culturally adapted already. :shrug Its just that some Christians accept that women's roles are different, and some still try to stick them into the same culture as the Bible and then wonder why it doesn't work so well. :doh

:hug :lol well i've said before i'm not "pro-contemporary" services :D personally i don't think that just because things are a certain way makes them "right". i'm not CERTAIN it makes them wrong though mind you, but i also believe that God can use things for His glory no matter what - so if we're supposed to be contemporary, then God can use the traditional services too even though in His eyes they're "wrong" and also vice versa. and if both are ok, then He can use both :D i have been praying for a peace of mind on this subject actually - haven't gotten it yet - i must be waiting for somethign really thought provoking on GCM :shifty :giggle

[ChristianMother27]

I *think* Janet touched on that, Jen, if I am understanding correctly. If Paul says to one church that women should remain silent in church, but in another he tells them women should pray and prophecy with their heads covered, that is a seeming contradiction until you realize he was speaking to those individual churches. I don't think Paul would contradict himself, would he? So those *must* have been unique situations.

If something is repeated over and over in many different situations (i.e. extramarital sex is wrong), then I think we can safely apply it to today.

Does that sound right? Because I've struggled with it, too, but that seems to me the way to make the distinction.


Right, that's it.... and I try to get the heart of what Jesus was all about, and if you think about His life.... he was really against "religious" ideas.... so it seems the last thing we should do is start new strict religious ideas like "women must stay at home" and "men must work with their hands because of the curse" .... it can really create bondage. I think there is great value in being at home, I am at home, so that's not what its about.


well i am approaching this (as i do all my opinions) from my own "jen-colored" glasses. so looking at it through my experience, i realize that DH is simply NOT suited to do my job. maybe there are some men out there who are FANTASTIC housekeepers,cooks, organizers, financial planners, teachers, child care experts and yes, i even heard a story once about a man who made himself lactate :eek :giggle BUT.... i'm curious if that's the "norm" of men, or the exception... my dad was the same way as my DH, he COULD do stuff, but he just wasn't as observant as my mom.... i dunno though. my dh can clean a room, and then i can realize it still needs 10 more minutes of cleaning before it's done (and even then it's only partially done cuz it's just the floor i'm looking at ..) i'm not saying there should be a "rule" that women stay home. i'm saying i think that women should WANT to stay home and then do it... i'm saying it should be the encouraged behavior, instead society encourages 2 income families with children in daycare all day, less family time, more "activity time".... what i see in today's society is that family life is degrading and children are being seen as more of an inconvenience... i don't see that from stories my grandma and even my mom has told me... but today's society has become where men are stereotyped as homer simpson (bums) and wives are stereotyped as working executives. and the homelife is in shambles. i personally saw this growing up... my family life crumbled... my mom was a SAHM but then she started working and it was just bad. my dad emotionally distanced himself from all of us (he has since reconciled or at least tried with us kids) and my mom drifted down her little alcoholic spiral and they ended up divorcing. it was really bad. i know that my parents divorcing didn't just happen over night and that there was stuff that built up to it.... but when my mom stayed at home and did the house cleaning and what not... a) us kids didn't feel AS much like we were indentured servants. there was still some bitterness, but that's another story b) the house WAS neat.... c) we actually ate at the dinner table a meal my mom cooked. when she went back to work she had significantly less time. we were all rushed around for school and our activities, dinner was either not cooked at all, really really really late, or fast food. we stopped eating at the dinner table for that reason - my dad started working late cuz home life sucked. i started staying away at friends houses for the same reason...

now maybe my real life example is a bit extreme - obviously it has colored my opinion on things (:O :giggle) i'm just saying that today's society is not a good model from which to draw ideal Biblical family life from IMNSHO.... i don't think the model of family life today is family focused at ALL... i think it is very self-focused and "stuff"-focused... make money to get stuff or to do stuff (activities for the kids, etc).

[erinee]

i'm just saying that today's society is not a good model from which to draw ideal Biblical family life from IMNSHO....

But no one is using *society* so much as we're saying that the verses you're using are *not* necessarily the Biblical model. It was the model for those people in that place and time -- you are using your own experience to defend what you see as the Biblical model, but there are too many of us here who completely defy your experience -- I gave lots of examples from *my* personal experience. That's why using personal experience from which to defend Biblica principles just doesn't work -- every experience is too unique. The way to get the Biblical model is as I said, to look at the Bible as a whole.

The thing is, Jen, I don't have a problem at all with you being happy in the role you believe is your God-given calling. I have a problem with anyone saying that the Bible says that's the way it has to be for everyone. You don't have to defend your desire to be a keeper of the home, but just because you enjoy that does not mean you can defend Biblically that this is what God has called every woman to do. The fact is, you don't have to worry about what other women are doing with their lives -- if they're wrong, let God deal with them. We all know our Bibles, we all are listening to God, and no one is saying you should be going out and getting a paying job -- the vast majority of us here at GCM either don't have paying jobs or we work in the home to be near our families. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why this is *such* an issue. I mean, it's a good discussion and everything, but it 4just sounds to me like you're worrying an awful lot about what everyone else is doing. :shrug

I don't mean that to sound harsh at all, and I"m sorry it it does -- I'm just trying to understand why this is so important to you.

[ChristianMother27]

Where did I say I liked it

Jen said it. Jen said she considered housework her job and one she enjoys doing. It's great that she enjoys it, but that doesn't make for an argument that it's what God wants all women to do. I enjoy being home with my young children more than anything I've ever done. But when they are gone, I would absolutely despise just "keeping house". :sick It's just not important to me whatsoever.




my argument was the same one sara mentioned that women are to be keepers of the home... :shrug

[ChristianMother27]

Just because the Bible describes something happening, doesn't mean we're all supposed to do it! The Bible describes John the Baptist wearing a hair shirt and eating locusts. Does that mean that's what God wants us to do?


:scratch but the Bible says for women to be keepers of the home. it doesn't say "susan be a keeper of your home"... it was a directive IMO. paul may have been talking to a specific church, but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*. i guess i just don't see the difference between the two.

[ChristianMother27]

:rolleyes Proverbs 31.


i read proverbs 31 to mean working inside the home, but like a work at home type of business... do you see it differently? (actually well duh of course you do :giggle - can you explain so i can see through your eyes? :))

[illinoismommy]

:hug :lol well i've said before i'm not "pro-contemporary" services :D



Please tell me you don't think they sung the hymns that "old fashioned" churches sing today in Paul's day... :shifty

[cklewis]

:rolleyes Proverbs 31.


i read proverbs 31 to mean working inside the home, but like a work at home type of business... do you see it differently? (actually well duh of course you do :giggle - can you explain so i can see through your eyes? :))


She's negotiating real estate deals, going "afar" to get good deals, etc. It just doesn't fit in the 1950s-SAHM pic that is taken to be the ideal. She's not just cooking and cleaning. . . . and she is still keeping her home.

Point is -- woh and keeping thge home are FAR from mutually exclusive.

C

[ChristianMother27]

i'm just saying that today's society is not a good model from which to draw ideal Biblical family life from IMNSHO....

But no one is using *society* so much as we're saying that the verses you're using are *not* necessarily the Biblical model. It was the model for those people in that place and time -- you are using your own experience to defend what you see as the Biblical model, but there are too many of us here who completely defy your experience -- I gave lots of examples from *my* personal experience. That's why using personal experience from which to defend Biblica principles just doesn't work -- every experience is too unique. The way to get the Biblical model is as I said, to look at the Bible as a whole.

The thing is, Jen, I don't have a problem at all with you being happy in the role you believe is your God-given calling. I have a problem with anyone saying that the Bible says that's the way it has to be for everyone. You don't have to defend your desire to be a keeper of the home, but just because you enjoy that does not mean you can defend Biblically that this is what God has called every woman to do. The fact is, you don't have to worry about what other women are doing with their lives -- if they're wrong, let God deal with them. We all know our Bibles, we all are listening to God, and no one is saying you should be going out and getting a paying job -- the vast majority of us here at GCM either don't have paying jobs or we work in the home to be near our families. I guess I'm having a hard time understanding why this is *such* an issue. I mean, it's a good discussion and everything, but it 4just sounds to me like you're worrying an awful lot about what everyone else is doing. :shrug

I don't mean that to sound harsh at all, and I"m sorry it it does -- I'm just trying to understand why this is so important to you.



:hug i'm not upset - hopefully no one else is - i'm debating in a good natured sort of way :) trying to share my viewpoint really that's what it's important :) i don't expect i'll "change the world " or anything, i just like to share my vision of a perfect (but still sin stained :shifty) world.

the reason i said society is beause it seems the argument i'm hearing AGAINST just being a SAHM/WAHM is that it's just not the way it is in today's culture. that things have changed, that women are now "allowed" to work outside the home, etc. maybe i'm hearing it wrong, i just wanted to share that just because it's "allowed" it doesn't make it right. just because something is the cultural norm, it doesn't make it right - look at all the pagain societies of the Bible - the ones that sacrificed children and what not. that was the cultural norm, but it definitely wasn't right. (please don't assume i'm comparing sacrificing children to working outside the home i'm really really not doing that, it was just the first example of culture that came to my mind). So i guess what i really want to understand is the reasoning behind just because paul wrote "women be keepers of the home" why does that mean keep the house, yeh, but work outside the home too? :shrug i've done that... and i can honestly say it was nigh impossible to keep the house once there is a baby in it. at least if you're working two... that's 8-9 hours (or more if you have a very demanding job) that you are outside of the house... so like here's the schedule - you wake up at 6 and start getting ready for work. maybe you get breakfast for your little ones in that time. then you go of to work and come home at 5. i feel cranky if i don't have 10 hours of sleep, but we'll assume 8 hours of sleep for my example. so unless you live really close to work you get home close to 6. so that gives you 4 hours to cook, eat, and clean up after dinner, get baths and teeth brushed for the children, clean up any messes made during the day, maybe there's laundry to be done, and you might be able to squeeze in time to read the Bible... i have so been down this road. unless you have the endurance of superwoman (and i really applaud those moms who CAN pull it off... that's one reason i am becoming a SAHM because i just cannot do it anymore i am WAYYYY too tired) it is just not a really plausible scenario... every day i come home from work i feel like my 8 hours were wasted when i could have been cleaning up, getting some laundry done, cooking something from scratch instead of either fast food or convenience food (just how healthy IS mac 'n cheese??? :shifty) and usually i would catch up on all my bible reading on the weekend (or at work if i wasn't busy at work... but i have to be here for "visible appearance :rolleyes). now i'm not saying that a woman couldn't choose to work outside the home. honestly my thoughts are this:

i think God told women to be keepers at home because it's a lot easier than working. at least once you have children. now before i had children it was easy to work and then come home and clean up and make dinner. i didn't have a toddler running around making the job 10 times more difficult, just a husband :shifty :giggle but i quickly realized once i had a baby that this scenario of me working was just not possible. if the mom can take the kids to work or work part time or something, that's a little different. but working full time and then coming home and trying to manage the household is so stressful and hard.

personally i think the women being keepers of the home thing is more like the sabbath thing - it was created to make our lives easier, not to "imprison us". honestly if you are attached and involved in your kids lives (as we all are here) i can't fathom how anyone has the energy to do an outside job! having done it for 2 years since having DD i have to say i am utterly exhausted and i dont' even get my saturday sleep in day anymore because DD is a toddler now and is awake a lot more than she is asleep. i NEED to be a SAHM so i can nap with her and sleep in :lol i don't think it was a directive meant to imprison us, i honestly believe it was one meant to free us from the burden of workign outside the home. my job isn't even stressful, but having to do it and be a wife and mom IS. like i said unless you are a supermom you just CAN'T effectively do both. one or the other will suffer. at least that has been my experience, and what i have observed of the other moms working around me.

[ChristianMother27]

:hug :lol well i've said before i'm not "pro-contemporary" services :D



Please tell me you don't think they sung the hymns that "old fashioned" churches sing today in Paul's day... :shifty


:lol no. especially since they were written in like the 1800s, the 1900s, etc :giggle (i'm a still "up in the air" actually about the service thing. my gut says go old-fashioned, but i'm not 100% sure, only about 95% ;))

[ChristianMother27]

She's negotiating real estate deals, going "afar" to get good deals, etc. It just doesn't fit in the 1950s-SAHM pic that is taken to be the ideal. She's not just cooking and cleaning. . . . and she is still keeping her home.
Point is -- woh and keeping thge home are FAR from mutually exclusive.


see i totally agree with you about what you're reading :)

BUT i had some clarity just a minute ago and i *think* i actually was able to spit out what is in my heart - it finally made it to my brain :giggle - see that post for my thoughts on WOH and keeping the home :D

[illinoismommy]

well i am approaching this (as i do all my opinions) from my own "jen-colored" glasses. so looking at it through my experience, i realize that DH is simply NOT suited to do my job. maybe there are some men out there who are FANTASTIC housekeepers,cooks, organizers, financial planners, teachers, child care experts and yes, i even heard a story once about a man who made himself lactate :eek :giggle BUT.... i'm curious if that's the "norm" of men, or the exception...

Does it matter? If it happens to work for a family that the man can work from home and homeschools the children, but the woman has a good paying job.... is it our job to say that's just not right because he doesn't have breasts? :shrug I know a really good Christian man who homeschools his children and seems to do rather well. Then mommy comes home and they get mommy time without any housework.

instead society encourages 2 income families with children in daycare all day, less family time, more "activity time".... what i see in today's society is that family life is degrading and children are being seen as more of an inconvenience... i don't see that from stories my grandma and even my mom has told me...

I think that its not mom stays home or nothing. There are even part time situations where both people can work part time, or they may both have a job to work from home and split the housework and childwork and all these are great solutions in my opinion. If they work and they don't mean day care, then I am in favor of them.

now maybe my real life example is a bit extreme - obviously it has colored my opinion on things (:O :giggle) i'm just saying that today's society is not a good model from which to draw ideal Biblical family life from IMNSHO.... i don't think the model of family life today is family focused at ALL... i think it is very self-focused and "stuff"-focused... make money to get stuff or to do stuff (activities for the kids, etc).


I haven't found it difficult at all to be against the way society births their babies, throws them in daycare, and returns to work..... and yet still not believe that its women's assigned role to be at home. I think one of the parents should care for the children, especially when young, but how they work that out is up to them.

[cklewis]

She's negotiating real estate deals, going "afar" to get good deals, etc. It just doesn't fit in the 1950s-SAHM pic that is taken to be the ideal. She's not just cooking and cleaning. . . . and she is still keeping her home.
Point is -- woh and keeping thge home are FAR from mutually exclusive.


see i totally agree with you about what you're reading :)

BUT i had some clarity just a minute ago and i *think* i actually was able to spit out what is in my heart - it finally made it to my brain :giggle - see that post for my thoughts on WOH and keeping the home :D


Okay. I see that you're reading Sabbath-keeping and home-keeping as giving us a break. I don't at all agree. Nor do I see my WOH as hurting my home-keeping. :shrug They aren't mutually exclusive.

C

[ChristianMother27]

Okay. I see that you're reading Sabbath-keeping and home-keeping as giving us a break. I don't at all agree. Nor do I see my WOH as hurting my home-keeping. :shrug They aren't mutually exclusive.


well i'm not trying to make everyone agree with me :no but hopefully you are able to see my POV that it is easier to just hold one job rather than 2. and if you're a mother, and an AP one, then you don't have a choice about not choosing that one. i'm not saying a woman COULDN'T choose a WOH the job. i'm just saying IMO it is a lot easier to just pick ONE rather than juggle two.

[Benjaminswife]

Well see the thing is, some women think the way you feel about work about being home all day...so what about those women?

[Benjaminswife]

Okay. I see that you're reading Sabbath-keeping and home-keeping as giving us a break. I don't at all agree. Nor do I see my WOH as hurting my home-keeping. :shrug They aren't mutually exclusive.


well i'm not trying to make everyone agree with me :no but hopefully you are able to see my POV that it is easier to just hold one job rather than 2. and if you're a mother, and an AP one, then you don't have a choice about not choosing that one. i'm not saying a woman COULDN'T choose a WOH the job. i'm just saying IMO it is a lot easier to just pick ONE rather than juggle two.


On a personal level I agree with you...sorta. For me right now working full-time out of the house is not something that would benefit my family in any way, shape or form. But I know moms who thrive on that kind of life.

[illinoismommy]

Well see the thing is, some women think the way you feel about work about being home all day...so what about those women?


They're missing out :giggle Hopefully at least the daddy is getting the enjoyment of being with the children.... I so love my job :heart

[ChristianMother27]

On a personal level I agree with you...sorta. For me right now working full-time out of the house is not something that would benefit my family in any way, shape or form. But I know moms who thrive on that kind of life.


and now that i think i've sorted out my thoughts i dont' disagree with you. but i still maintain it is harder to do two jobs than one :giggle unless a mom has absolutely perfect children that never make messes and never get in trouble :rolleyes2 :giggle

[cklewis]

I've spent the whole summer being a SAHM. I really enjoyed it. We played. A LOT! The house? :laughtears

Now, I'm back to university teaching part time. I'm home all day on Wednesdays and Fridays and part of Mondays. My house is actually in better shape *now* than during the summer. :scratch Haven't exactly figured that one out, but it's true. :bag

I'm always a mom. ALways. And I really think I'm always a teacher too. Housekeeper (note I didn't say HOMEkeeper! ;) )? Eh? a couple hours a week. . . .

C

[ChristianMother27]

I've spent the whole summer being a SAHM. I really enjoyed it. We played. A LOT! The house? :laughtears

Now, I'm back to university teaching part time. I'm home all day on Wednesdays and Fridays and part of Mondays. My house is actually in better shape *now* than during the summer. :scratch Haven't exactly figured that one out, but it's true. :bag

I'm always a mom. ALways. And I really think I'm always a teacher too. Housekeeper (note I didn't say HOMEkeeper! ;) )? Eh? a couple hours a week. . . .

C


:lol

[mamatogands]

and now that i think i've sorted out my thoughts i dont' disagree with you. but i still maintain it is harder to do two jobs than one :giggle unless a mom has absolutely perfect children that never make messes and never get in trouble :rolleyes2 :giggle


or, possibly, unless the daddy gets the full joy and blessing of doing part of the kid job. This morning dh took dd to school -- he was up with her last night making a vegetable animal and he got to enjoy seeing his little girl take her vegimal to kindy. Right now is one of the two days a week that both our kids are not with us -- dd is enjoying her fabulous kindergarten and ds is happily playing with the four children of friends of the family. I'm prepping for theology class in 20 minutes. Dh is home writing his sermon. He's also putting chicken in the crockpot for dinner. Yesterday, I made dinner and cleaned it up. Dh swept and dusted. I cleaned the bathroom counters. We BOTH snuggled and tickled and giggled with our kiddies. We BOTH spend at least a few hours doing the WOH stuff God has called us to do. Are our lives full? Yes. Are they incredibly, incredibly blessed? Yes. :heart

Would my life be workable if dh never swept or put chicken in the crockpot? Or if he never made vegetable animals with dd or played snuggle-tickle? No my life would not be workable. I could no longer do my teacher-calling and still do my mommy-calling (at least and stay sane). But dh's life would be incredibly impoverished too. Because he wouldn't get to do his pastor-calling and his daddy-calling.

I am not superwoman. My kids make messes. But I have a partner in my dh. Good thing we both know how to do laundry. :mrgreen

[pneumaphile]

but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*.
Um, no we don't. I don't necessarily agree at all. You're making an interesting assumption about what we "all" agree.

[ChristianMother27]

Would my life be workable if dh never swept or put chicken in the crockpot? Or if he never made vegetable animals with dd or played snuggle-tickle? No my life would not be workable. I could no longer do my teacher-calling and still do my mommy-calling (at least and stay sane). But dh's life would be incredibly impoverished too. Because he wouldn't get to do his pastor-calling and his daddy-calling.


and you are very blessed for having such a helpful DH :) i for one am not - DH is in his own little world, and i know a lot of people who's husbands are like that. :hug

[ChristianMother27]

but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*.
Um, no we don't. I don't necessarily agree at all. You're making an interesting assumption about what we "all" agree.


you don't agree with the ten commandments? :scratch which one? i figured those were sort of universal things people agreed on

[mamatogands]

I'm always a mom. ALways. And I really think I'm always a teacher too.

AMEN! :tu :yes

[Benjaminswife]

but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*.
Um, no we don't. I don't necessarily agree at all. You're making an interesting assumption about what we "all" agree.


you don't agree with the ten commandments? :scratch which one? i figured those were sort of universal things people agreed on


I started a new thread on it ;)

[ChristianMother27]

but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*.
Um, no we don't. I don't necessarily agree at all. You're making an interesting assumption about what we "all" agree.


you don't agree with the ten commandments? :scratch which one? i figured those were sort of universal things people agreed on


I started a new thread on it ;)

i noticed - got my popcorn in it :lol

[pneumaphile]

but for the ten commandments, God was talking to the israelites, but we all agree we should follow *those*.
Um, no we don't. I don't necessarily agree at all. You're making an interesting assumption about what we "all" agree.


you don't agree with the ten commandments? :scratch which one? i figured those were sort of universal things people agreed on
I didn't say I didn't agree with the 10 commandments- I'm saying you're making an assumption that we all agree we should follow those. The 10 commandments were actually 10 "words" - that means "thesis statements." If you actually read that book of the Bible, you see that they're 10 thesis statements for the huge sections that describe how to follow each "word" - in detail. It's very complex Judaic law. And we're not meant to attempt to follow Judaic law anymore (see the book of Hebrews, the book of Galations, and the book of Romans for why we're not to be following Judaic law).

I'm not saying how everyone should believe, but these are my beliefs (and I'm not alone in them) so I just found it interesting that you would assume everyone here believes what you believe.

[AngelBee]

what on earth does it mean to "believe in" gender roles?

:scratch


to accept them - to think them appropriate... at least that's what i mean. my MIL doesn't really "believe in" gender roles meaning that she kept wanting to buy DD boy clothes... and i wanted her in pink and in dresses (but not always in pink dresses :giggle)


Me too. I'm trying to teach DD how to be a good house keeper and DH takes DS out to fix the car. Mind you, DD isn't forbidden from going to fix the car, but she has no intrest. DS isn't forbidden from cleaning or cooking either. I believe that women are to be the keepers of the home and to be home raising kids, as the bible says. And that the men are to be financially supporting the family, which God says is wrong if he isn't. My girls where pink and play with dolls. My boy does not. He plays with cars, trucks and tools, she does not. I haven't so much raised them this way as this is the way they naturally are. God created man and women to compliment each other, to do what the isn't. Man have a hunter, gatherer, provider, protector nature and girls are naturally motherly, nurturing, care providers. I think this is the way God designed us. Different, to fill the void of each other, not over lapping. That said, my boy will be able to make himself a meal and do a load of laundry when he's older and my girls will be able to check their own oil and change a light bulb or whatnot. But I do hope my DD's are SAHM and my DS's are providers.

:yes :tu

[AngelBee]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C

For some of us, it has everything to do with staying home.

[AngelBee]

But keeping the home does not equal only staying at home. we've been down that road before.

C


I guess....I think too many areas of the bible are picked apart to suit one's needs. You could do it at home, but it doesn't says "Be a keeper of the home when you aren't at work" as another example 1 tim 5:14 I desire therefore that the younger widows marry, bear children, rule the household, and give no occasion to the adversary for reviling. Doesn't mention anything about getting a job and supporting their family.

:rolleyes Proverbs 31. And I'm not picking anything apart. There's no need to say that (an accusation often made when a good exegesis is attempted); it's meant as a put-down and it's just not true.

C

I do not see how that proves mother's should work outside of the home and have their children in daycare.

[ChristianMother27]

I didn't say I didn't agree with the 10 commandments- I'm saying you're making an assumption that we all agree we should follow those. The 10 commandments were actually 10 "words" - that means "thesis statements." If you actually read that book of the Bible, you see that they're 10 thesis statements for the huge sections that describe how to follow each "word" - in detail. It's very complex Judaic law. And we're not meant to attempt to follow Judaic law anymore (see the book of Hebrews, the book of Galations, and the book of Romans for why we're not to be following Judaic law).

I'm not saying how everyone should believe, but these are my beliefs (and I'm not alone in them) so I just found it interesting that you would assume everyone here believes what you believe.


i don't believe everyone here believes what i believe. i also was not aware that the 10 commandments were a "thesis statement". i figured the ten commandments though were as black and white as Jesus is the savior... my apologies that i was wrong.

[AngelBee]

:rolleyes Proverbs 31.


i read proverbs 31 to mean working inside the home, but like a work at home type of business... do you see it differently? (actually well duh of course you do :giggle - can you explain so i can see through your eyes? :))
:tu Family centered business.

That is different then pursuing a career out in the world.

[erinee]

Where did I say I liked it

Jen said it. Jen said she considered housework her job and one she enjoys doing. It's great that she enjoys it, but that doesn't make for an argument that it's what God wants all women to do. I enjoy being home with my young children more than anything I've ever done. But when they are gone, I would absolutely despise just "keeping house". :sick It's just not important to me whatsoever.




my argument was the same one sara mentioned that women are to be keepers of the home... :shrug




I must be doing a terrible job of getting my point across, and I don't know how to make it any more clear. You went on to say you enjoy it, and it seemed you were using that to support your argument that God made all women to be keepers of the home the way you've decided it means for you. You say you're good at it and enjoy it, you're husband isn't and doesn't. Where does that leave those of us who can't stand it? I'm just saying that just because one is a woman doesn't mean she fits into that mold. There are so many of us here who have been trying to get that across, and it doesn't seem to be happening. :shrug

So to the point -- what would you tell a woman who hates housekeeping, is terrible at it, doesn't know that much about it, and has a passion for something completely different? Did God somehow mess up with her? Is she not as feminine as you are? Is she just supposed to live in misery the rest of her life?

To me, if you are not following God's plan that he specifically designed you for, it is a recipe for a very miserable life. God did not design me to be a keeper of the home, at least by your definition. I'm terrible at it. But I'm a darn good mom, and he wants me to make that my primary ministry for this season of my life. This season will pass, and I truly believe (I pray with my whole heart) that he will have another ministry for me. If he doesn't, I'll be asking him to take me home.

[ChristianMother27]

*sigh* But then you went on to say you enjoy it, and it seemed you were using that to support your argument that God made women to be keepers of the home. You say you're good at it and enjoy it, you're husband isn't and doesn't. Where does that leave those of us who can't stand it? I'm just saying that just because one is a woman doesn't mean she fits into that mold. There are so many of us here who have been trying to get that across, and it doesn't seem to be happening.


i am an optomistic person. i try to make the best of every situation. i also tend to use my imagination. truth be told i'd RATHER be doing "fun" stuff - reading, relaxing, etc. but if i have to work, i'd rather it be housework then office work. i guess that's really what i meant by enjoying it. as far as being good at it, well i just think it's because my mom trained me to have an eye for detail when it comes to noticing something that needs cleaning. not saying my house is sparkly shiny mind you... it's definitely definitely not.

[erinee]

You would rather -- that doesn't mean every woman would rather. I didn't realize we were talking about you, I thought we were talking about Biblical mandates. :scratch That's why we're going around in circles here, I'm not saying you're doing anything wrong. You really don't have to defend your decisions for me. But what works for your life is truly *not* going to work for mine. God made all women completely different people with different talents and a different background.

Sure it's good to be content. But I believe there's no way we'll be content if we are sitting in a box built of legalism and ignoring other calls God has on our lives. My husband doesn't just go work at a factory because he's supposed to provide for our family. He went to college, explored his interests, and chose something that he was suited individually for. If he *had* to take a job he hated so we could eat, he would, but God has provided him with a different way to use his talents. I cook so we can eat, but it's a practicality -- it's *not* the calling God has placed on my entire life, and I'm certainly not limited to it. The same is true for many, many other women.

[ChristianMother27]

...
i'd RATHER be doing "fun" stuff

:ot but is there someone out there who would rather not be doing fun stuff?

I didn't realize we were talking about you
i was answering your insinuation that i was saying my personal preference was the basis of my believe that it is Biblical (i don't believe it's a "mandate" for reasons i have explained)

anyways i'm done for now - feeling a little attacked and i need to cool down.