Church nurseries or Family Worship? [Archive] - Gentle Christian Mothers Community

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 03:08 PM

A few weeks ago at church my 2 yo had a different worker in the nursery. She didn't want to go in. So I talked to her for a bit, but she wouldn't move away from my leg. And she told me she didn't want to stay. The worker told me to just push her in and shut the door. :mad I just ignored her, and we left and dd went to sunday school with me. Ten minutes later she's getting antsy and tells me she wants to go to her classroom. I reminded her that her teacher wasn't there, but someone else was there. She said that she still wanted to go. So back to the nursery we go. Once there, she acts clingy again. I knew if I just waited about 5 minutes, she would venture away from me to color or something and she would be fine. AGAIN, this worker tells me to just walk out and leave her. I ignored her again. When I finally left, it occurred to me to tell this woman that if dd started crying or acting out, she needed to come and get me. Surprised, she asks me if that happens often. I said no, but I don't want her to be in there if she crying and I want to take care of discipline issues myself. (We had an incident with a timeout a few months ago. My 2 yo has NO concept of timeout and was VERY upset about!) Anyway, she looks at me strangely and asks, are you a stay at home mom? Well, YES, thank you very much! So she says, well I work at a daycare and none of our moms ever ask if the kid was crying! :bheart How very sad for those families. :cry

So I've been reading all these posts about church nurseries, and I can't help thinking that the family worship movement is right on. The stories are awful! Seems like it'd be so much better for everyone if our churches would embrace the children being in the service to be tended to by the parents. The only thing standing in the way would be the selfishness of many parents (including myself) that says we have the right to worship and hear the Word without distraction. I have 4 kids and I have to go to church without dh most of the time, so I just can't comprehend how I would do it without a nursery. My 6 yo goes with us, and she does fine. I am just now starting to take my 4 yo, and he is starting to get a bit better. But the 2 yo would be a nightmare! And the 13 month old would be even worse! I don't have the arms to handle the two little ones. I wish we were more community oriented, so that maybe an older woman would offer to help me during the service. But I hate to ask someone. I fear that they will do it out of obligation all the while being upset that they are being distracted from the service.

I want to just avoid the nursery at all costs. Even the nice workers don't always follow my wishes -- giving baby cheerioes and crackers when I have indicated that she cannot have anything but what I send, not coming to get me when the baby is upset. (They feed all the kids horrible snacks, but that's another post!) The sunday school hour is okay (no food, directed teaching/playing), but once church starts, it's mostly glorified babysitting.

It seems to me that family worship is more AP-oriented than a church nursery model. But most experiences I have read about family worship involve parents hitting kids with glue sticks. Do any AP/GBD mamas do this?

Edited to change the title to more accurately reflect what I meant to ask.

hsgbdmama

02-19-2006, 03:22 PM

TulipMama

02-19-2006, 03:34 PM

I didn't have my oldest in the nursery until #2 was born and #1 was about 16 months old. The main nursery worker was very AP, gave me a bunch of cloth diapers *grin*, and planted some really good gentle-mothering seeds at a time when we were teaching the Ezzo crud.

At another church, the older women took turns in the nursery so the younger women could focus on the sermon. Our three (then) boys comprised over half the nursery population. They were very loving and helpful at a time when I really appreciated having the boys in the nursery.

So. . . yeah. . . there are some really good nurseries.

MidnightCafe

02-19-2006, 03:42 PM

Our nursery is pretty good. DD didn't start staying in there until she was 2.5, though, because other parents left their children to cry there & DD would be too sad for them. The workers in our nursery sort of follow whatever the parent wants. I have always indicated that I want them to come get get me whenever DD asks for me & they have done that. One the other hand, some parents leave their kids to cry and "get used to the nursery" and the nursery workers will go along with that, too. They won't keep a kid in there who is hysterical for too long, but they will try for a while. The nursery workers are very good at gently diffusing conflict and keeping the children busy so they don't get too chaotic. The have the kids seperated into three age groups - babies to 1 yr, 1-2.5, and 2.5-4. The older kids sing songs and hear Bible stories.

cannuke

02-19-2006, 03:51 PM

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 04:01 PM

I think it's great that you guys all have great nurseries! :tu That's wonderful!

But I am wondering if it's possible to do the family worship thing without gluestick "training" little kids. Or if anyone here does it. I know some of you do. What's it like? I don't think changing churches is an option right now, and I'm not sure I'd find one that's any better.

MidnightCafe - did you take your dd to church with you til she was 2.5? Was she quiet for you? I see lots of families in my church with little ones who just sleep or lay in their parents arms for the whole service. That seems so nice, but none of my kids would do that, and none of these people have 4 kids either. I am at a loss. How do you take a 13 month old and a 2.5 yo to church with you?

MidnightCafe

02-19-2006, 04:03 PM

Ok, after reading over my post, I'm thinking that our nursery definately isn't great. It's decent. They listen to me - about getting me when DD asks & not feeding her things they shouldn't. But they are definately mainstream in that they're ok with letting kids cry for a while. Our church also embraces children in worship. So, I never felt like I *had* to put DD in nursery. (I used to take her out of service a lot, though, because she was so noisy - not upset, just noisy.) Our church also has coloring paper & crayons in boxes for kids who want to stay with parents during service. So, I guess they're trying to strike a balance. It's a big church with a pretty diverse population so they really try to suit everybody in terms of how to handle kids duringn church. :shrug

MidnightCafe

02-19-2006, 04:07 PM

Oh, and to answer your question, there was a long stretch of time when we didn't go to church much because one of us spent the whole time in the hallway with DD & the other sat alone in church. After a while it got to feeling like one of us should just stay home with her, but neither of us wanted to do that alone, either. So, we just stayed home for a while. I was hard, but we felt like we didn't really have options. I honestly don't know what to do with noisy kids during service. I also envy the people who have quiet children who will sleep or look at books or color during service. DD will do that now if she decides herself that she really wants to stay with me, but she couldn't even understand that a few years ago. Now she's almost 4, and if she wants to stay with me she knows she has to stay quiet.

AmyDoll

02-19-2006, 04:17 PM

mamaKristin

02-19-2006, 04:19 PM

I've never had access to a nursery staffed by other people. Only the 2 times when we worshipped in another church. I have 3 kids, all under age 4. My DH is the priest, so I am parenting alone on Sundays. We don't always make it through a service *in* church, we spead time at the back with crayons or nursing (or both). My oldest goes to sunday school. I have never brought a glue stick...I don't do that at all. I don't punish my kids, I work with them. We work towards *good* behaviour in church. It takes time. My oldest is becoming much more able to get through a service without being 'too much', but that is coming with age. It also helps that we attend a church where people don't mind the normal occasional noises of little one - in fact they welcome them.

Do any AP/GBD mamas do this?
Hitting one's kids with glue sticks, or anything else is NOT GBD.

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 04:25 PM

Do any AP/GBD mamas do this?
Hitting one's kids with glue sticks, or anything else is NOT GBD.

Just want to clarify: I know that hitting with glue sticks is not GBD. :O I was just pointing out that when I hear about training kids to sit in church, it is usually in the context of punitive parenting.
My question: Do any AP/GBD mamas fo this? was referring to taking multiple kids to church services without using the nursery, NOT hitting with glue sticks. Sorry for the confusion.

cannuke

02-19-2006, 04:26 PM

Umm, glue sticks? You mean those ones that you put in the glue gun? How is that punishment? Am I missing something here?

(and I'm actually being serious and now :bag b/c I feel so foolish)

mamaKristin

02-19-2006, 04:29 PM

Just want to clarify: I know that hitting with glue sticks is not GBD. blush I was just pointing out that when I hear about training kids to sit in church, it is usually in the context of punitive parenting.
My question: Do any AP/GBD mamas fo this? was referring to taking multiple kids to church services without using the nursery, NOT hitting with glue sticks. Sorry for the confusion.

no problem. I do make it to church most days and through the service with my kids. Some days are easier than others. Some days I just take all 3 to my DS's sunday school class and help out. I don't have much choice though, not having a nursery - it's that or don't go. :laughtears

Soliloquy

02-19-2006, 04:31 PM

I am strongly in favor of family worship, but I think it's important that there be nurseries and children's ministries for the families that need/want them. Your situation is a perfect example--4 kids and solo parenting on Sunday morning. I can (almost) imagine how hard that must be.

I also know some families that wouldn't bother to go to church at all if they had to keep their kids with them in the service--either because their kids are very active and simply cannot sit still/quiet that long or because the parents just wouldn't want to do it. Personally, I want my church to be welcoming of everyone--children included. Now, I know that little kids can get noisy--mine especially--and I don't want to disturb/distract others, but a special family worship room could accomodate that. I've tried and tried to get one at our current church, but can't seem to get the cooperation I need. So, we're church shopping again.

We are having a REALLY hard time finding a church that has a mother's room (or whatever you want to call it) where I can tend to my soon-to-be newborn and still hear the service--and probably play with my 2-year-old, too. I will not leave my kids in a nursery unless two condition are met--they want to be left there w/o me and I know, 100%, that the caregivers are gentle, kind, and will come and get me/page me immediately if one of them starts to cry. I've been in a LOT of different nurseries in the past 16 months, as we've visited more churches than I care to count. I or DH always stay with Gracie--since we're visiting and don't the workers (plus, Gracie isn't ready to be left, yet.) I've seen some horrible things. I've seen workers unsuccessfully try to calm a screaming baby, saying they want to let the parents "enjoy themselves" in worship. I've seen babies needs be ignored. I've seen babies plopped into various baby holders and given a propped bottle. It's :bheart that the weakest among us are treated this way in some churches. I've also seen unprotected elecrtrical outlets, scissors and thumb tacks left within reach, etc. It's never OK to assume that a church nursery is a safe place to leave your child. You need to investigate.

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 04:36 PM

I love your suggestions Amy! Thanks! Now, if you don't mind, I am going to put some questions in that maybe some parents of 2 or 3 little ones could answer for me.

Family worship is do-able w/o glue-sticks! Now, I only have one kid so it would look different then someone w/lots of children.

1 - Go to church consistently. Sam does much better if we go every week.
2 - Choose where to sit based on your child. Sit in the back and you can make a quick exit. Sit in the front and your child can see what's happening.

My olders (4 and 6) do better up front, but with the baby and 2.5 yo, I don't feel comfortable sitting up there because we may be leaving and returning multiple times lugging all our stuff and causing a ruckus.

3 - Bring quiet toys, quiet books, crayons, snacks, drinks
4 - Use the bulletin to show what's coming next.
5 - We correct and distract noisy behavior - "it's time to be quiet and listen to pastor J - would you like to color a picture?"
6 - If the noise continues - Sebastian takes Sam out to the Narthex and they sit on the pew and still try to be quiet.

Can't do this with one parent without taking all the kids out and causing the commotion again.

7 - If he's still loud and can't calm down they go downstairs to the fellowship hall to "get their wiggles out" and then come back

It's a process - we work at it every Sunday. We talk about it during the week. We talk about it before church on Sunday. We remind Sam how we're all supposed to behave in church.
It's hard for little ones to sit still for so long - but we remind him about the Children's time and Communion. Both of which he likes to go up front for... And our church is only about 45 minutes.

Also, our church service is about 1.5 hours long and has nothing for the kids. No children's sermon or anything. Basically, it's music, prayer, music, sermon, intivation. I grew up in a very different type of church (with no staffed nursery) that had a formal order of worship and lasted an hour with a sermon only about 17 minutes long and a children's sermon. I much prefer my current church's style, but it's not so kid friendly.

AmyDoll

02-19-2006, 04:46 PM

Does your church have a singles ministry? Maybe you could partner with another Mom who's in worship by herself with her kids?

An 1 hour and a half is tough for kids - kids have an attention span of about 10 to 15 minutes per year of age. An hour and a half is a long time to leave a little one in a nursery, IMO anyway.

Is there an evening service that's shorter?

There's been some discussion on my "tribal" area of MDC about family friendly churches - if you're interested in persuing a different church that's more family friendly.

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 04:48 PM

Nightingale

02-19-2006, 05:23 PM

I think that our church has a great nursery...granted, I've complained a bit on here about my issues with one nursery worker, but those are being solved, and most parents don't have the issues I have with her.

using the nursery is a MUST for our family...that's what I'm so grateful that it's "good." My husband is the youth pastor at our church, and I'm the children's pastor and run children's church during both services. I haven't sat in a grown up service on Sunday morning since August, except for Christmas Day where we had a family service.

I absolutely have nothing against family worship, and think it's great if people want to do that. I don't get offended if people choose not to bring their kids to children's church or put them in the nursery, totally fine!

Even when I attended service, I utilized the nursery once they got to be really squirmy. Although, I did play on the worship band and stuff, so I couldn't really keep them with me at that point anyways. Anyhow, I think it's great that my kiddos can go and be lovingly cared for and sing songs and hear Bible stories, etc. Even the infants have a Bible story time. Kiandra, my 2.5 year old, can always come home and tell me about the story she learned, and I think it's so awesome! Our nursery has very loving workers, and I appreciate them so much. I know that if there was an issue, they'd come get me.

Anyhow, I definitely think there are great nurseries, and I feel that our's is. Of course, we are ever changing and growing so that we can better serve families and kids. I have learned SO much about what our nursery needs to be from ladies like you! I sat in our board meeting a couple weeks ago and told them that they might think it's silly but I've really learned a lot about what parents would like to see at church by reading on my Christian moms forum. :heart

Irene

02-19-2006, 05:34 PM

Umm, glue sticks? You mean those ones that you put in the glue gun? How is that punishment? Am I missing something here?

(and I'm actually being serious and now :bag b/c I feel so foolish)
hitting with glue sticks really hurts, but I guess it supposedly doesnt leave a bruise so people cant get turned in? :shrug I dont know really, but I guess a lot of moms use them to spank their kids :cry

Benjaminswife

02-19-2006, 05:44 PM

We have attended about 4 churches this year. Our old church in CA had in the bulletin something like, "Do not feel pressured to leave your child but for those who want it we have a wonderful nursery and Sunday school program." Some kids stayed in the service and others didn't. One Sunday we had no Sunday school classes for kids and some parents didn't come because they didn't want to deal with their kids in the service. So there really was a mix there. We never left our son but he was 6 months when we left for KY and we didn't feel like we needed to.

Out of the 3 churches I have attended here, I have liked 2 of the nurseries and hated 1 of them. I hated it because of some of the workers. They really just creeped me out. And they also made it a requirement to work in the nursery if you left your child in there. But the whole reason we were leaving our child in there was because we wanted to attend a Sunday school classes. Anyway, just rubbed me the wrong way.

So really I think it does depend on the church. I know now at 16 months I couldn't sit with my son in church and get anything out of it. So finding a church with a good nursery is very important to us.

My ideal church would be open to having children in service with the understanding that they will be on the quiet side. Not silent but not running all over the place. But also have a great nursery/Sunday school program for those who want it.

Now I had heard somewhere that keeping your kids in the service with you was an Ezzo thing. Anyone else heard of that?

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 05:53 PM

My ideal church would be open to having children in service with the understanding that they will be on the quiet side. Not silent but not running all over the place. But also have a great nursery/Sunday school program for those who want it.

My church is like this. And most people don't have the issues that I have with our nursery. But the fact is that no matter how great it is, the kids are still there for 3 hours or more on Sunday mornings if I go to sunday school and church. I am totally FOR church nurseries by the way. I am totally fine with chuches having them as long as they don't force parents to use them. I am just having a problem with my particular situation. And I have been feeling like very few AP/GBD parents take their kids to church with them.

MagnoliaMommy

02-19-2006, 07:10 PM

It must be difficult to take all 4 children to church by yourself. :hug Do you think your dh would be willing to help you out? Either go with you or offer to watch the younger ones occasionally?

We don't use the nursery at our church. It is just not a place where I would want to leave my child. :sad2 I don't even take dd down to play because it is rarely disinfected and I just prefer to keep her away from the yucky germs. I do volunteer in the nursery on one Sunday night a month (the kids stay home with dh) and I try to come in once a month and clean/disinfect everything. I would love to see things improve, but can only do so much.

Ds (4 yo) loves his preschool class, so we are happy with that. It is very well done. Dd stays in service with us and either dh or myself take her out to the foyer if she gets too rowdy. Our services last almost 2 hours and she is not able to make it that long. The sound is pumped into the foyer and the doors are glass, so you are still able to see what is going on in the service.

This Busy Mom

02-19-2006, 07:43 PM

I gave up on trying to get my toddler to stay in church with us... I try to get her to stay through praise & worship, but she's a screamer if things don't go the way she's expecting (she expects to get out of the pew and run out of the sanctuary doors then do laps around the building :rolleyes ).

She wouldn't stay in the nursery (she'd get hysterical), so I turned the nursery into a family nursery :O . One of the older kids goes with her and stays with her. They take turns, and it works for us. If it was the same person all the time, I'd acclimate her to that one person, but it's always different people (families). If one of the kids are with her, then I don't have to worry about it they are pro screaming it out or if they'll come find me.... and the workers don't mind one of the older kids staying because they behave and help out.

I was ready to quit going because I didn't hear a sermon in several months. This is working for us.

heartofjoy

02-19-2006, 09:47 PM

I talked to dh about this when he came home. He does help when he comes to church :tu, but his regular work schedule includes two Sundays a month, and this year he's had so much overtime that he's only been to church once. :(

I asked him what he thought about changing churches, and he said he didn't think we'd find any better nursery care in our area. The only other option would be a more child-friendly service. We talked about maybe attending Sunday evenings instead. The service is only about an hour...well, it usually runs about 15 minutes past the hour, but we could leave early. Of course, then we have the problem of the kids being there during dinner time and bedtime. Maybe not the best idea. The church is considering going from one morning service to two services. If that happes, hopefully the earlier service will be less crowded and we'll be able to spread out in the pew and I won't worry about bothering people too much.

It's very hard not to hear sermons for weeks on end. Ask my dh. The spiritual desert around here is growing. It's not good.

glassangel

02-19-2006, 10:28 PM

I have only one nearly 2yo boy. I tried the church creche - but after going there 5 times and 4 of the times no-one talking to me :rolleyes2 when I walked in I gave up! It is also loud, noisy :hissyfit and understaffed :td! (BTW I did NOT leave him the times that no-one apporoached us!)

So we are trying to keep him in with us - children are welcome and there is designated seating (at the back of course!) for parents & children. My MIL gave DS a bible bag with a zipper pocket that folds out to be a felt board of Noah's ark complete with felt animals and Noah and his wife :rockon. I have a couple of books in it, a couple of plastic soft wheeled cars, a mini magna doodle (great toy for church!) and snacks :popcorn! BUT that doesn't always entertain him! He is also the only one his age normally left in the service, tho' my friend who suggested the mini magne doodle used to keep her DD in until she turned 3 and can now go to 'Preschoolers for Jesus'!!

I am VERY tempted to have his grandparents take him - they go to the first service and we do the second...still he loves the singing and I can ignore the glances from my GKGW brother and sisters!!!

milkmommy

02-19-2006, 10:50 PM

Our church has no nursery cry room (though they are apprently making one) not even a lobby area to go to in i n the church or outside as of now. Now I love it and I'm an overall supporter of "family worship" however I'm also glad they are making a cryroom/family room it will still allow parent to stay with child but will give a more private area is families need it while both not disturbing everyone else and being able to parpicipate. I kno from about a year till almost three it was almost impossible to go to church as a family cause DD was just not going to copeate fora long Mass and there was nowhere to go. Truthfully it brought out some of my less than ideal parenting till I realized I was being unreasonable and DH and I attended sepeate services. Honestly there was a period of time I would have used a nursery if one was offered and DD was comfortable enough. However I think I'm happier weremain as a family.

Deanna

findingjoy

02-19-2006, 11:26 PM

I have never left my kids in nursery on a regular basis. I tried it with ds a few times when he became a very active toddler, but he was only happy for about 15-20 minutes and I wasn't really comfortable with it either. Then it was coming up on germ season and I didn't want him getting sick a lot so I kept him with me. Then he started sitting through the services pretty well around the time he weaned (3 yrs old). We would still take a break during the middle of the service. Basically we'd sit for about 20 minutes, then go out and have a snack and potty break for 15-20 minutes, then back in for the last 15-20 minutes. I didn't always get to hear a lot of the sermon, but there was more to the whole worship and fellowship experience than that for me.

After dd came, ds became clingy when I would have to get up and take her out. She was very fussy for the first few months of her life. So I ended up taking them both with me. We sat on some benches outside the door (or ds sat while I paced back and forth with dd in the sling) and I sometimes could hear what was going on. I would tell ds he had to still sit and not run around, but he could whisper, draw or look at books. We've gone through many different phases. For awhile dd as a baby would be pretty quiet through most of the service. Then she became loud. Now at 2 1/2 she sits fairly quietly, but we still usually have to leave for a bit once during the service. Ds now stays with dh in the service when ds and I have to leave.

Ds is 5, almost 6. Our church is liturgical so there is a lot of sitting, standing, singing, and active worship. This helps with ds, but he still gets bored by the end. I bring some colored pencils, paper and thin books, but he doesn't use them much. There is also a brief children's sermon. At our last church, they did have a children's Sunday school class during the sermon. We attended that church for about 8 months. Ds went to the class, but at first I had to stay with him. Eventually he would stay by himself. This was a huge step since both my kids are extremely attached, needy and clingy. That is one reason nursery never worked well for us.

I'm kind of glad there is no Sunday school during the service at our new church because I really like the idea of families worshipping together. Our church has a nursery, but a lot of the kids including some toddlers stay in the service. At our church (2 churches ago), many women used the nursery but then expected their kids to sit quietly in the service at age 2. Many of them accomplished this by spanking. :td

My dh likes to sit near the front to keep ds interested. I like to sit near the back since I inevitably have to get up with dd. Dh usually wins by the way! I have no idea how I would do it with 4 young children and no dh in the service to help. Your idea of trying the evening service sounds great (if your kids aren't too tired that time of night). To keep kids in the service it certainly takes practice and consistency. It also takes patience and trial and error to find out what works. I know some families practice at home. We used to have family worship time at home and need to try this again. Maybe you could start by taking just one of your little ones in with you at first and see how it goes. Oh, I also bring a not too messy (or loud) snack and a sippy cup in. Keeping something in dd's mouth helps tremendously! She is also finally grasping the concept of whispering, but for a younger toddler that is very difficult. Also, personally if I was alone in a service with multiple kids I would probably sit near the back so it wouldn't be so obvious when we had to get up to leave. Could you sit near another family or individual that your older kids would be comfortable sitting with while you took the younger one(s) out? Maybe you could stay right outside the door so you could still see them.

I'm a big fan of cry rooms or family rooms and wish our church had one. Hope you figure out what works best for your family!

Knitted_in_the_womb

02-20-2006, 08:08 AM

I love your suggestions Amy! Thanks! Now, if you don't mind, I am going to put some questions in that maybe some parents of 2 or 3 little ones could answer for me.

Well...might I suggest that you *gradually* introduce family worship? That is, start with the kids that it will be easiest with, and once they are "old pros," slowly add in the other kids.

That is pretty much what we have done. Since our church encourages family worship (you aren't "allowed" to put school aged children into Sunday school *and* children's church--one or the other. I do see parents who use both though--I think that is the exception, and my observation is that it is just granted to single parents or moms whose husbands don't come), we have gradually been teaching all of the kids to participate. We started with just our older daughters when they were 4 and 6--and squirmy, talky...you know the drill.

We bring coloring stuff for them, and they LOVE the children's bulletin activities that are put out each week. We encourage them to join in the singing, and they will periodically pay attention to other stuff that is going on.

Once they were doing okay, we started bringing our first son--who was 3, but just turned 4. He really loves the music and children's sermon. Then my husband takes him to children's church...but I want to talk to him about starting to keep Jason in church longer. He does tend to get squirmy, but I'm sure he can learn. Once he is doing well, we will bring our 2 year old in--though I think the nursery workers will be a bit upset because they all think he is SUCH a baby doll. LOL. :rolleyes2

In your case, being in church alone, I think you might want to remember that your older kids *can* be taught to stay on the pew quietly alone while you attend to the needs of your younger kids.

Jenn

Cherish

02-20-2006, 08:37 AM

we have been doing family worship at home on almost a daily basis since Grace was 2. Having that time set aside every day also helps when you need fot them to learn to sit quietly at church (for longer than doing family worship at home takes). Our church makes a baby nursery available, a toddler nursery too, and the 3 yr olds may stay in their sunday school class through worship. Children 4 and above do not have class provided during church, so the parents have them in the service. All children are welcome to stay in the service, but childcare is provided if you want to use it. It is worded in a lovely way in our bulletin, showing that we invite and encourage children to stay, but do not force them to be in nursery, or force you to keep them still and quiet to be able to stay.

We didnt not use nursery for Grace. We have used it for Lily and are using it with Felicity. We have had positive experiences with the nurseries, no crying/clinging when leaving, and laways paging me when baby/toddler needs me. So at least I can trust them to treat my children the way I ask them to.

erinee

02-20-2006, 08:46 AM

I've always used the nursery because my kids enjoyed it and I knew the workers would come get me if they were crying (they never had to). But if my kids had a problem with it, if they were scared or just didn't want to go, I have kept them with me, and I'm blessed to have a church that offers wonderful children's programs during the service and also welcomes them in the service if that's what families choose. I think you've gotten some great advice, and I'm actually having to read this over carefully because they've just discontinued our children's church. My kids go to Sunday School, but now they both have to sit in the service the whole time with me. Megan was used to sitting in for just the music and then leaving for children's church. Zach is old enough that sitting through isn't a problem. THis last sunday was the first time Megan had to sit through the whole service, and she did okay. I took some advice I'd read earlier here (from quietspirit I think?). The kids had their crayons and books, and a couple of times Megan forgot to whisper and spoke very loudly. I took her out to the couch in the narthex and told her if she could sit in the service with us and her books and crayons, but if she kept forgetting to whisper, we would have to come back out and practice sitting quietly, which would mean no books or crayons. I think she forgot one more time once we went back in, but I just whispered, "Do we need to practice?" and she got reasonably quiet again.

She's very disappointed not to go to children's church, though. She really loved it. If I had the choice, I'd have it back. But I think it will work out okay.

BlessedBlue

02-20-2006, 10:10 AM

heartofjoy

02-20-2006, 12:40 PM

This thread has been very helpful for me. Thanks especially findingjoy and Jenn. I am considering some of your ideas. My oldest kids are coming to church with me right now. They are 6 and 4. The 6 yo has been coming for over a year and the 4 yo just started coming. It's a bit long for him, but the 6 yo usually does great! I feel okay with her going to the bathroom herself, but she lacks the maturity to be left in the pew by herself. So does the 4 yo. I think I am going to really try and find someone to sit with regularly. Single moms are almost non-existent at my church....hmmm...I wonder why? All my friends have offered to let me sit with them and their kids, but that's too distracting for all the kids involved. I really need to consider an older single lady with no children. I suppose then I could work on the 2 yo, and then the baby. Or maybe the baby first? O rmaybe I can just become very assertive about what I expect from their teachers in the nursery.

BTW, our nursery has 5 rooms: babies, toddlers, 2 yos, 3 yos, 4 yos. K-6 can go to Children's Church. I have problems with our CC too. I just wish these people were actually trying to care for the kids and teach them about the Bible. It just seems like they are all back there "doing their duty" and ready to leave. I went once to another church in our area that had an AWESOME children's ministry! The people back there seemed to really care about the kids! It was wonderful. But then the preacher's sermon was verbatim from a book I had just read: Lee Strobel's A Case for Easter. I kept waiting for him to indicate where his material was from, but he never did. Yuck!

Anyway, you guys have given me much to think about and pray about. :grouphug

Marmee

02-20-2006, 02:24 PM

Wow! I am so glad someone brought this up! We have been exploring the "family worship" concept for awhile. We do not use the nursery. Every church we have been in, the nursery was unacceptable. (This is not to say nursery is always bad, we just haven't found a good one yet.) We keep our children with us in church. They are 2 and 6. My six year old can now use the bulletin insert to take her own notes. She enjoys it and it gives us a springboard for conversation in the afternoon. My two year old has some quiet toys and we sit in the back. We have worked on stretching out his time to include the whole service. I think that it is adults who have a problem with children and worship, not the children. The purpose of worship is to. . . worship God. This means that we come to church for God - to praise him, to show our love, to worship and adore him. If church becomes about worshipping God and not about a "break" for parents, then a little "children noise" isn't a problem. I well remember when my son was an infant and we attended the church Christmas program. It was mostly a musical production, and very beautiful with candles, etc. My infant son was nestled in my arms (via sling) and as the words to the Christmas hymns played, I had such a startling revelation that the little scrap of humanity in my arms was Christmas. It was what the whole thing was about - a baby. I wrote pages and pages in my journal about the deep meaning I took from that service and how it felt so connecting to think about Mary and the little baby Jesus while nursing my little son. The whole season took on new meaning. Later that same night I spoke with another Mother who had her baby in the service. She told me he had a little cold and couldn't go to nursery, so she had to bring him. (Soft and long-suffering sigh from her.) Another Mother present launched into how she couldn't stand it when babies were in the service. She said it was distracting and that it "quenched the spirit". I was completely shocked! Whatever happened to "let the little children come"? I tell this to demostrate that I think people have a lot of wrong thinking about church and children in general. Since then, my DH and I have tried to come up with ways to help people think and act differently. We helped to start a family-integrated home group at our church that meets on Monday nights. It is great! All ages, all stages - together! Even more exciting, we have been invited to be part of a church plant team that will start a fully family-integrated church in 2006!!! Yeah! And you won't find any glue sticks for spanking! I am super excited about this topic, if you can't tell. :O I realize that it may not fit everyone's ideal for church, but I do feel that attitudes have to change with being educated about what worship really is. Babies and children can worship God just like the rest of us. I believe this is a huge step towards respect for little ones and teaching other parents that children are not lesser citizens of God's kingdom.

illinoismommy

02-20-2006, 05:03 PM

I think bringing *babies* in for family worship is a very plausible idea.... but toddlers it will very much depend on their temperment. My son couldn't sit still through a service for anything.... unless I took a route I don't want to take. So I am glad there is a nursery, but he still isn't letting me go, he won't sit still anymore, but when I go in the nursery he clings to me like a baby koala, so I end up staying and missing lots of church. :scratch

illinoismommy

02-20-2006, 05:10 PM

findingjoy

02-20-2006, 07:42 PM

Since then, my DH and I have tried to come up with ways to help people think and act differently. We helped to start a family-integrated home group at our church that meets on Monday nights. It is great! All ages, all stages - together! Even more exciting, we have been invited to be part of a church plant team that will start a fully family-integrated church in 2006!!!

How cool! :tu
I have a friend that has been through several churches in recent years trying to find one that is friendly toward families worshipping together. She has 5 children and does let the younger ones go to nursery if they choose, but sometimes they all stay together. One church the family tried would absolutely not allow children in the service at all! I really appreciate churches that are family-friendly and allow a family to keep their children in the service if they choose..

Sarai

02-21-2006, 01:26 PM

This is such an important issue, IMO. I know that for my family, it was the final straw in our decision to leave our old church (LOADS of history there- my dad was an assistant pastor, both DH & I basically raised in the church.....lot of negative stuff going along w/the good, KWIM?). When DS was first born, we brought him right to church with us. The church was NOT "family-friendly" - anytime any child made a peep, half the room would swivel around to stare and give angry looks. :mad They finally made a mother's room, but one of the rules was that the room was ONLY for feeding and changing babies- the mother & baby couldn't sit in there for the entire service :hunh :scratch! How nuts is that?? There was a video feed and everything to watch the service, but the room to this day (according to my MIL, who still attends there) remains largely unused.

As DS got older, DH & I still brought him with us, but took turns taking him out of service. THere was an overflow room that was supposed to be much more casual, but even there people got mad if DS so much as whispered. :hissyfit :hissyfit Finally, feeling TONS of pressure from the pastor to "be at church as much as possible" (long story, but basically the other reason we left the church), we decided to give the nursery a try. I brought DS in the first time and told the workers I intended to stay for while to get him acclimated. He seemed fine after about half an hour, so I decided to leave. I gave the workers (one older lady, one teen girl) strict instructions to send for me if he fussed for more than 5 minutes (literally). I made it abundantly clear that we did not do CIO. Well, I returned to the service and could not concentrate. Call it mama's instinct or whatever, but I just knew something was not right. About 15 minutes later I sent DH to check on DS, and he found DS curled up in a ball behind the rocking chairs, sobbing his little heart out. :mad :cry The workers were both sitting in the chairs, ignoring all the children, watching the church service on the tv!! DH stormed in, scooped DS up, grabbed his stuff and left, telling the worker that we would NOT be back. She just called after him "Oh, he was fine"...yeah, right. DH told me later that he had to leave or he would have said or done something he would regret.

He brought my sobbing DS back into service. I was furious, and we just got up and walked out. We never went back to that church. To me, how they treat the children is a HUGE symptom of what is really going on in a church (good or bad).

We didn't really go anywhere for a few months, and then visited my SIL's parents' church. We were blessed and amazed at the wonderful care the nursery workers gave to DS and the other little ones there. It was so evident that they understood how to reveal Christ's love to them. WE also immediately noticed how important children were in teh church as a whole- the family is highly esteemed there. :amen

Anyway...got off on a bit of a tanget (especially for a newbie LOL!). I think back to that incident all the time, and it just kills me that it even happened. :bheart One a positive note, DH & I have an opportunity to work on revamping the nursery/preschool at our new church (it's great, but our wonderful pastor has some new ideas that will make it even better). I'm really excited about being able to contribute in that way. :-)

fourbzboysmom

02-22-2006, 12:45 AM

I think it's great that you guys all have great nurseries! :tu That's wonderful!

But I am wondering if it's possible to do the family worship thing without gluestick "training" little kids. Or if anyone here does it. I know some of you do. What's it like?

We did :-) For the longest time all our dc were with us in church and no hitting to get them to be "good" either. I took little books, sippy cups, etc. If they got restless dh or I walked with them. Most families in our church keep little ones with them, but also have a nursery if one is desired. It was with my youngest that I actually used the nursery more and that was after he was two and he wanted to go in it. He still asks to go play now :mrgreen

I think the temperament of the child is a big factor. Anyway... gbd at church isn't too different from at home for us. Ours did fine. Oh... I also think the tolerance level of the church matters too. Our church is very child/family friendly.

Mommyo6

02-26-2006, 08:34 PM

I just read this thread (I have been offline for a couple of weeks ) so this may be old news, but I had to chime in here. We have a family integrated church (hubby is one of the pastors) .I have 6 kiddos that have all been in church with us for the last 10 years since we started the church and they do fine and with NO GLUESTICKS! (Or rulers ,switches etc.) Yikes! And although some Mamas do give little "hand to the bottom swats" for difficult little ones I have never seen anyone do anything more punitive than that. We teach them to sit quietly with love and encouragment and by the example ot the older children. And then we are all very accepting and forgiving of the natural noises and wigglyness of our little ones. Our lead pastor reminds us often that those sounds are a joy to the Lord! I am so blessed to be part of such a body. Keep looking, they are out there.

Marmee

02-27-2006, 05:47 AM

Wonderful! I am glad your pastor made the "joyful noise" comment! :tu

catholicapmom

02-27-2006, 06:00 AM

Catholic churches don't have nurseries so I don't have to deal with this. We believe that children should learn to worship with the family, and when the kids act up I've heard many a priest say from the pulpit "Jesus said "bring the little children to Me" and I'm so glad to hear those cries." :heart When I have visited my mom's church she's pressured me to put the kids in the nursery and I just don't feel right about it. It feels like daycare to me. :shrug

So yes, we take our kids with us when we worship even though sometimes I wonder. :giggle We usually sit in the back because dh likes to make a quick exit should the need arise, but I like to sit up front so they can see what's going on. And in a Catholic church there's bells and other things they like to look at. ;) We bring children's Bibles, books about saints and other religious stories, quiet toys, etc. But we don't bring crayons because Bethany likes to color everything but what she's supposed to be coloring. ;) If they start acting up (usually it's Bethany--Alvin is old enough to sit quietly) Al or I take her into the narthex but we don't let her run around. We hold her until she calms down. We don't want her to think that if she acts up in church she'll get taken out for a run. ;)

Quietspirit

02-27-2006, 06:16 AM

heartofjoy

02-27-2006, 09:21 AM

Our family strongly believes in family worship. And we do it "ap-style" ;) I blogged about it recently in the GCM Admin blog if you're interested. I included specifics as to how we do family worship with 4 children, starting at infancy.

Here's the link:

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/weblog/archives/quietspirit/index.html

Thank you!!! You blog entry was wonderful! Just what I needed to hear!

What would you have changed, if anything, in your approach if your dh was not able to be with you?

ETA: And do you guys participate in an age-based Sunday School?

illinoismommy

02-27-2006, 11:38 AM

Do you guys think that kids get more out of children's church than they would out of adult church?

Quietspirit

02-27-2006, 11:41 AM

We do not participate in Sunday School at this time but that is due to our current church's Sunday School being in a real state of flux. It isn't a program I want my children involved in just yet so I am serving on the SS Leadership board to make some positive changes before our children become involved in classes.

As for what I'd do if my husband wasn't able to be with me, that's a real tough question! Let's see...

I don't think I would change much though. I would step up the practice at home to be a daily occurence and make it very positive. Then at church I would just follow what my blog says. If we all have to go out because someone is fussing, then we'd all go out. I'd make sure to sit in the very back though. That way it's less of an intrusion. It makes it more challenging to be the only adult with the children. But I still think you can do it. :hug

Quietspirit

02-27-2006, 11:42 AM

illinoismommy

02-27-2006, 11:44 AM

Do you guys think that kids get more out of children's church than they would out of adult church?

Not in our case with our family. My children enjoy the worship service and pick up on quite a bit as they listen to pastor, sing and pray with us as a family. Even our toddler likes to "dance" in arms or next to his chair in the pew when we sing praise songs.

I don't think events/experiences/etc need to be age-segregated for all to learn something. And I think my children benefit greatly by worshipping together with us. :heart

What if your church has most of the children out? I already do so many things "against the grain" I'm not sure I want to pick up another! And actually... my son is really active and won't sit in the service... but maybe as he gets older he can have an option whether to stay with us or not

Quietspirit

02-27-2006, 11:46 AM

hsgbdmama

02-27-2006, 11:49 AM

My ds1 really enjoys Sunday School and Extended Session, and does bring up things he learned weeks later. :tu He also enjoys the Children's Time at church. I'm happy to have the wonderful nursery and ES available as I am assured my children are being well-cared for when I need to perform my elder duties (i.e., serve communion). :-)

illinoismommy

02-27-2006, 11:59 AM

Oh hon....I'm not saying you have to worship in the way my family worships :hug This isn't a GBD/AP rule or anything! ;) Just what my particular family believes in and does. You need to do what works best for you as a family.

That said, it never hurts to try! You might start a trend at your church! :hug :cool

Yeah I know you didn't say I had to. But this thread did get me thinking "hmmmmm"

So I will just sit on the hmmmmm for now.

Honestly with my spirited son at this particular age.... it is all I can do to keep him in through worship!!! :blush If we dont hold him he runs down the aisle towards the stage, and while he hold him he tries to get us to put him down so he can do the running.... we're working on that though. For now I want to accomplish "child does not run away from mommy during worship" LATER I can think about the actual service :giggle

Quietspirit

02-27-2006, 12:31 PM

:giggle

H0nBun

10-30-2009, 05:59 AM

question: ...Do any AP/GBD mamas do this? was referring to taking multiple kids to church services without using the nursery...

:yes My mom did not put me or my siblings in the nursery (except for once or twice with me when she was a new mom under a lot of pressure to do so). She learned very quickly to follow her heart on the matter and we learned to worship as a family. Something else to consider is that perhaps also there are other ways your spiritual needs could be met? It is a sacrifice, but it is only for a season and speaking from experience I am thankful for the gift of emotional security she gave me in doing so. :heart

Oldest of 3, my mom was a LLL Leader for approximately 16 years, also an AP mom. GCM was not around back then, but she greatly benefited from the wisdom of Dr. Sears & I know she wishes GCM could have been around back then to offer her the support of other Christian AP moms for her decision in not using the church nursery amongst other things.

...Seems like it'd be so much better for everyone if our churches would embrace the children being in the service to be tended to by the parents. ...

I am told that Dr. Sears often gave lectures while his children snuggled in his arms. I think more moms could greatly benefit from such an environment in which this kind of example is given. Pastors giving sermons with their babies sleeping comfortably while being held, mothers tending to their childrens needs, other church members who don't mind the occasional noise and are willing to reach out a little and help.

ie. According to an article by Penny Murad, New Beginnings Magazine, March-Apr 1993, ARTICLE: Toddler Tips - Toddlers and Church Services,
"Seek a minister who favors and models child-friendly behavior. Our pastor will preach with his newborn snuggled in his arms. His wife, our organist, has played the organ while her aby nurses. My four-year-old can be with me in the choir 'stall.' One of the Singers traditionally entertains any child in the choir by quietly cutting paper dolls and doilies during the sermon. It is acceptable for any parent to 'walk the fringes; of the church so that a toddler may wander.
Nobody expects little ones to be completely silent or still. If a toddler speaks or cries out, the pastor is likely to make a positive comment about it!"
"There are probably people in my church who would prefer that children not be seen or heard, but they don't argue because they know that child-friendly churches grow."
"Utilize the mother's room. If your church doesn't have one, suggest it. This room is usually equipped with rocking chairs, cribs, and a diaper changing stand. The service is on close-circuit television or over a speaker. Some have a window so you can view the service. I designed a mother's room at our church years before I had a baby. Now, as a mother, it's been a life-saver. ..."
"... Sure, I'd like to be involved during every service, but as I often tell myself about other developmental stages, 'This too shall pass!' My children's needs, while not always convenient, must be met. Don't be afraid to be a trendsetter. ..."
"... I also helped start a group of mothers that met in homes to pray and talk with our children at our feet. We called it 'Prayer and Share' We judged how long we could discuss our topic and pray by how loud and rowdy the children were. It was much like a La Leche League meeting, only with a different theme. It was also a wonderful support group.
So even if you miss out on a few (or many) services now, there are many creative ways to keep in touch with your fellow church members.
My husband and I feel very strongly that a child's first impression of church should be a positive one. We do not want our children to associate church and God with unhappy memories. That is why we have listened to our children. Most of our children have eventually been able to sit through the hour service quite well."

littleplum

11-02-2009, 10:10 AM

Family worship is do-able w/o glue-sticks! Now, I only have one kid so it would look different then someone w/lots of children.

1 - Go to church consistently. Sam does much better if we go every week.
2 - Choose where to sit based on your child. Sit in the back and you can make a quick exit. Sit in the front and your child can see what's happening.
3 - Bring quiet toys, quiet books, crayons, snacks, drinks
4 - Use the bulletin to show what's coming next.
5 - We correct and distract noisy behavior - "it's time to be quiet and listen to pastor J - would you like to color a picture?"
6 - If the noise continues - Sebastian takes Sam out to the Narthex and they sit on the pew and still try to be quiet.
7 - If he's still loud and can't calm down they go downstairs to the fellowship hall to "get their wiggles out" and then come back

It's a process - we work at it every Sunday. We talk about it during the week. We talk about it before church on Sunday. We remind Sam how we're all supposed to behave in church.

I know lots of families with multiple children (one family I know has 8 children), and that's what they did, too. (Except I don't know what a Narthex is, so substitute foyer for that, lol).

I started going to worship at 11 years old, and all the JHS and HS kids sat in the first few pews together (right behind the preacher's wife), so our family rule was "no passing notes". That didn't work, so then the rule became, "take notes on the sermon, and give them to me to check after."

My family quit the church, but I used to take my baby sister to worship, so she could go to Bible class, and it was really rough when she was 3 or 4. I had to sit in the back and take her out a lot during the sermon. I think it would have been a lot easier if she had been going since she was born.

Serafine

11-02-2009, 10:17 AM

I haven't read anthing else, so I apologize if anythying is repeated:

Our family beliefs are that families should be worshipping together. I don't care how nice, friendly, AP, teaching, etc. the nurseries are...I do not believe that families are supposed to be split up to worship.

Now, Torah-teaching, etc...of course there will be separate times for that (our congregation does some of that on Shabbat...and another one midweek)...but actual worship...as a family.

---------- Post added at 12:17 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 PM ----------

That being said...I think there is a period of time (especially in a child-unfriendly culture) where (b/c kids are not welcome AS kids...but "only if" they are quiet and don't disturb the attention-deficit adults...where I and my kids won't attend regular worship.

RIght now...we (the kids and I) go for the beginning of our 4 hour plus services...we are there for the blowing of the shofar, the lighting of the menorah, and the singing part.

I leave with the kids; sometimes DH comes with us...sometimes he stays for the Torah teaching.

When we have our own home-church congregation (hopefully in the next few years)...there will be kids everywhere, I hope. :)

yellowheart

11-02-2009, 02:40 PM

I'll admit that I have not read the whole thread.

There have been several spirited threads on this subject since I have arrived here at GCM. I've come to realize that there is not a one size fits all families answer to this question. If you believe in family worship from infancy on then that's what you do!!! I have no problems with that. That's what is best for your family.

On the flip side....judgement should not passed on those of us who choose to use nursery and preschool services at church. Its different strokes for different folks. I will use nurseries/preschool services until my children turn 4 at which time I will slowly transition them into the main service. At this point in time there is absolutely no way my two will sit through a service and I feel that I am entitled to worship and to hear a full sermon.

Serafine

11-02-2009, 04:17 PM

On the flip side....judgement should not passed on those of us who choose to use nursery and preschool services at church. Its different strokes for different folks.

I have to say, I find these comments bothersome. If my actual belief (NOT conviction) is that families are meant to worship together...then obviously (even if I am not coming out and saying it)...I believe that any other way is wrong. There is judgement there.

That doesn't mean that I don't like you, or that you are a bad believer or anything else. It simply means that I don't think that decision is the correct one. I could very well be wrong in my assumption or belief. ;)

TO be honest...I couldn't care less whether someone chooses to use the nursery or not...and I don't waste my time worrying about what other people are doing.

BUT, it is impossible to have a strong belief (again NOT about convictions) about right and wrong AND also not pass judgement. THe very nature of a belief about A right way and A wrong way is that there is a judgement call made.

I see this come up again and again and again. And it drives me bonkers every time.

yellowheart

11-02-2009, 04:44 PM

BUT, it is impossible to have a strong belief (again NOT about convictions) about right and wrong AND also not pass judgement. THe very nature of a belief about A right way and A wrong way is that there is a judgement call made.

I can agree with this. Its kind of like a "circular reference" when dealing w/ accounting spreadsheets. These discussions can go around and around with no real solution. I'm not sure there is meant to be a solution.

Personally, I always take offense in these discussions b/c I'm finding that its often implied that nurseries/preschool/whatever programs should be done away with. Who gives one the right to take away my ability to worship regularly? My DH is not churched. No nursery/preschool means that I would probably not get to go to church for the next 3-4 years. Not good.

BTW....there are no hard feelings on my part. I know this is simply a discussion and that there will be differences. :hug

JamesMama

11-02-2009, 04:56 PM

It's a personal choice I think, and really depends on the length of service and your kids personality.

We choose to put our kids in nursery/super church. It's nothing forced upon us and our Pastor wouldn't be put out if we chose to keep our kids with us...we just feel like with our kids personality they're happier downstairs.

My DD is busy busy busy busy and not entertained by ANY toys (really, she's 2, nothing keeps her attention for more than 3 minutes)...she's just a mover. She'd be miserable and fussy and ticked off if we kept her up in service and forced her to sit and play with quiet toys for 2 hours (our service is 2 hours long). She'd never last more than 15 minutes...that's just her personality. She loves nursery, the workers are super nice, I drilled them on punishments and stuff and they don't do anything but call the parents down. (If DD were to hit another kid or something) They have great toys and DD has a blast.

DS is in a class with the older kids (he's 4 almost 5) and he LOVES his class. He loves his teachers, he loves his 'friends'...on Family Sunday when he's forced to sit up with us he is GRUMPY. We bring crayons and quiet toys and stuff but he still hates every second of it.

If a kid has the personality to sit through service and not be miserable then more power to those parents...I just don't like being judge and called a bad mom (not here, elsewhere) because I can't 'control my DD' to force her to sit through a 2 hour long service...she'd be miserable, I'd be stressed. No one would 'worship' we'd be miserable and grumpy within 30 minutes. :shifty

Serafine

11-02-2009, 05:24 PM

its often implied that nurseries/preschool/whatever programs should be done away with. Who gives one the right to take away my ability to worship regularly?

I obviously can't speak for anyone else...but in MY ideal (and what I want to see happen in our homechurch)...it would be an INTIMATE (read: smaller groups of families), KID-FRIENDLY, COOPERATIVE atmosphere.

SO, mom's (even those without a DH there) WOULD be able to worship b/c:

1) They wouldn't have to be worried about their kid's normal activity for fear of interrupting other adults. Because ALL the adults would understand that is just the way it is.
2) The intimacy would mean that we all know and are intimately involved in each other's lives...so kids all know each other and the adults...so other parents could help out if mom is in the middle of an intense period of worship.
3) Again...it would be EXPECTED that kids will be kids and it wouldn't interrupt worship.

I have actually seen this practically played out (even with special needs kids in the midst) and it is a beautiful, beautiful thing. :amen

So, I, in my attempt to point out my issues with the church at large (namely, the un-child friendly nature of it in general in western society)...I DO NOT want to take away anyone's right/ability to worship, especially the moms.

I want to see real reform...away from the large church, non-intimate, child-unfriendly worship to smaller, intimate, cooperative, kids everywhere type of church. Where EVERYONE, regardless of age or development can truly worship freely. :)

Dana Joy

11-02-2009, 05:38 PM

I'm all for worshipping together, if by worship you mean liturgy, songs, prayers etc.
But the teaching I think needs to be separated into age groups. A lesson that challenges my spirit and teaches me, won't be appropriate for my 5yo. A lesson that is appropriate for my 5 yo would not feed my 12 yos need for growth.
I specifically choose the congregation I did because they did whole family worship. We start of with songs, go into liturgy and then prayers. About 30-45 minutes with the children with us. Then they are dismissed to their classes and we stay for our teaching / sermon (whatever you want to call it.) If the family does not want to send the children to class for whatever reason that is their call, no biggie, nothing is forced. But our teachings are very in depth, and can get into topics that I don't want my small children hearing about yet. There are only 4 official classes with lessons and then the nursery. The 4 classes are 3, 4 and 5 yos; grades 1 thru 5; grades 6-8 and high school. Often the adult teaching is considered appropriate for the high schoolers and they stay in service.
So when I read that some think that the best Biblical model is Family Worship, I have to ask if that includes teaching? And if they think that how do they handle the deep, sometimes disturbing topics that come along with a teaching aimed at adults?

Sparrow

11-02-2009, 05:55 PM

I obviously can't speak for anyone else...but in MY ideal (and what I want to see happen in our homechurch)...it would be an INTIMATE (read: smaller groups of families), KID-FRIENDLY, COOPERATIVE atmosphere.

SO, mom's (even those without a DH there) WOULD be able to worship b/c:

1) They wouldn't have to be worried about their kid's normal activity for fear of interrupting other adults. Because ALL the adults would understand that is just the way it is.
2) The intimacy would mean that we all know and are intimately involved in each other's lives...so kids all know each other and the adults...so other parents could help out if mom is in the middle of an intense period of worship.
3) Again...it would be EXPECTED that kids will be kids and it wouldn't interrupt worship.

I have actually seen this practically played out (even with special needs kids in the midst) and it is a beautiful, beautiful thing. :amen

So, I, in my attempt to point out my issues with the church at large (namely, the un-child friendly nature of it in general in western society)...I DO NOT want to take away anyone's right/ability to worship, especially the moms.

I want to see real reform...away from the large church, non-intimate, child-unfriendly worship to smaller, intimate, cooperative, kids everywhere type of church. Where EVERYONE, regardless of age or development can truly worship freely. :)

:yes I agree. My parents church (which Aaron attends Sunday School) does this. They have a small table at the back and parents take turns with the small ones supervising the cutting, coloring and gluing. Then the kids all go to Kids Church and the parents stay for the sermon. Their church is small though, maybe 60 adults and 20 kids.

Ajani

11-03-2009, 08:17 AM

:hugheart

Maybe I'm in the minority here :shrug but our nursery is great! We have two absolutely fabulous care workers who listen to the parents and treat the children lovingly and respectfully -- I have always felt comfortable with leaving my children in their care and have let them know it! :heart But then again, children are a very important part of our church and they figure prominently into all our planning (short and long-term).

But then again, our church does not **require** children to be placed in the nursery, but rather it is provided as an option for parents who wish to use it. :-)

:peace

Sounds just like ours, too (and I would have said that even before I was in charge of the nursery). We wouldn't attend a church that didn't offer nursery and Sunday School during the service.

MissusLeata

11-04-2009, 03:11 PM

Our church doesn't have a staffed nursery. The children sit with their parents (or sometimes with one of the young single ladies who help out.) Our kids sit with us.

We have a nursery where we can take them if they are being loud or whatever. I like the way it works out.

That said, we are probably the only family with small children who isn't a gung-ho follower of Michael Pearl. Our kids make more noise than all the others. But no one seems to have a problem with it.

illinoismommy

11-04-2009, 03:22 PM

:hugheart

Maybe I'm in the minority here :shrug but our nursery is great! We have two absolutely fabulous care workers who listen to the parents and treat the children lovingly and respectfully -- I have always felt comfortable with leaving my children in their care and have let them know it! :heart But then again, children are a very important part of our church and they figure prominently into all our planning (short and long-term).

But then again, our church does not **require** children to be placed in the nursery, but rather it is provided as an option for parents who wish to use it. :-)

:peace

:yes

I use the nursery and children's classes because it would take unrealistic age expectations and punitive parenting to get my very squirmy 5 year old, 2.5 year old, and 1.5 year old through an entire service. One of them, sure, three of them, :crazy2

TenderLovingWillow

11-04-2009, 04:04 PM

Just an observation-by no means scientific though.. :)

We were in a church were it most of the kids went to the nursary, and never sat through church.. and all of those kids.. except for 1 or 2 (litterally) left the church when they turned 18. Most of these parents were actively involved in church leadership, and I think did thier best to raise their kids right..

There were 3 families who chose to keept their kids in the service, (Mine being one of them) even though it met with a lot of disaproval.. All of those kids are still in the church. At the time we moved there my folks had 6 kids from 7 to newborn. We all sat in church..

I am NOT saying that putting your kids in the nursary is something that will make your kids reject the faith, and I am not even saying that is what happened in this case..I am sure there were other factors. It was an interesting observation in that church..

That being said, it is my intention to keep my children in worship with DH and I. Some of the earliest things I learned were little nuggets from the sermons when I was under the age of 10.

I am however open to changing this if I have a child that does not seem to work well with that plan. DS is 5 months now, and sleeps! :) And when he doesnt, he is pretty quiet.

Ajani

11-05-2009, 10:23 AM

It all depends on the church and the people, I think. Our youth tend to stay with the church unless they go off to college or something. Even then, if they move back to the area they often come back. And we offer and have almost always offered Sunday school/children's church. We've always had nursery during the service as well. It's all relative.

mezzogirl

11-12-2009, 03:23 PM

This was an interesting thread to find. Ih aven't been able to read all responses (but want to do so). My dh and I are planting a church. We have Children's Church for Kindergarten and younger. All kids are welcomed into our worship gatherings, but if parents would like to use the CC for their younger ones, they can. We have tables and chairs set up, as well as rows of chairs. You can sit wherever. On the tables we have sketch pads, colors, markers, etch-a-sketch and usually actiivites that are based upon the sermon that week (or sermon series, whatever the case). At the ends of each row, we also have baskets with the same materials.

I think we grew up and served in churches where kids automatically had to go to the nursery/children's ministry, etc. Pastors just couldn't deal with any noise. While it is challenging since both dh and i are involved in our serives most of the time, we still strongly believe that we desire to have our kids in service with us (laearning and serving themselves). At the beginning of each worship gathering, dh lets it be known that children are welcome, that we have a more casual environment (coffee and breakfast items are available whenever you would like to grab them, even during the teaching time), he encourages 'talking back to him' and answering his questions. We have kids serving with adults as ushers and greeters, even on the worship team (which I oversee). We want kids to see the church as not only adults, but for them, too.

Throughout the year, we have started having Life Groups from 6-8 weeks at a time. This last session (which was also our first one), dh taught one of the adult groups in our home and I led one for the kids 3-9 yrs, also at our home. So, kids definitely have time to just be kids. However, we have seen many of the kids who have left the church b/c they didn't think it was their church, rather just their parents. We can't change every situtation, or make decisions for kids, but our prayer is that by inviting them into the worship gathering and including them in the service opportunities from a young age, we hope to instill in them that the church is for them, infact the church is a body of believers that includes them.

We used the nursery at our former church b/c kids weren't welcome into the service (in word they were, but in actions, not so much). I, however, got informed that I could not serve in any other area, except nursery/children's ministry. We believe in helping where help is needed, especially since we are planting a church and much help is needed. However, we don't believe in forcing parents to serve in areas that they are not gifted, or would best not serve for whatever reason.

We realize for us that our church plant won't attract all folks b/c we don't have all the bells and whistles, but we are just trying to follow God and the vision he has given us. It appears that many folks are desiring more family -intergrated type services, or at least TRULY family-friendly.

I look forward to having the time to read through more of what you all have experienced and learned in this area.

yellowheart

11-12-2009, 10:00 PM

Welcome aboard Mezzogirl!!

Just an FYI....this subject comes up somewhat regularly and usually gets quite spirited. If you do a search you will probably come up with several threads that maybe of good use to you.

Bottom line.... I think the important thing is to make sure that members of your church know that children are welcomed in the service and that they can worship as a family. It would also be helpful to figure out how you will accomodate those of us whose DH do not go to church or those families who are lead by single parents. We need either a nursery service or some area in the main worship area where the kids may get up and roam and mamas can help each other out.

mommylove

11-12-2009, 10:35 PM

:hugheart

Maybe I'm in the minority here :shrug but our nursery is great! We have two absolutely fabulous care workers who listen to the parents and treat the children lovingly and respectfully -- I have always felt comfortable with leaving my children in their care and have let them know it! :heart But then again, children are a very important part of our church and they figure prominently into all our planning (short and long-term).

But then again, our church does not **require** children to be placed in the nursery, but rather it is provided as an option for parents who wish to use it. :-)

:peace

Ditto, ditto, ditto.

Plus, I'm the lead teacher for first service every Sunday. I'm an attached parent. That said, all our nursery workers (and other lead teachers) are so good that I have no concerns leaving my littles there. Our sign in requires parents to indicate whether or not they can eat our snack. It's our written policy that we cannot let a child cry for more than 10 minutes.

:hug2 I'm sorry you're not comfortable with your church's nursery. not all of them are like that.

Firebird Rising

11-13-2009, 02:22 PM

coming back to read and post

heartofjoy

11-15-2009, 01:24 PM

For some reason this did not come up in my subscribed threads even though I started it. :scratch

Someone resurrected an awfully old thread! :lol

We ended up moving and no longer go to that church. They did totally reform their nursery and it ended up being a great place for our little ones. :heart Then they merged SS and CC together just as we were leaving, so that it would have been really hard to take our kids out after SS and bring them to church. Glad we moved!!! Although I miss the preaching.

Now we are looking for one in our current city and it's been HARD finding a family friendly church, especially because my dh is hesitant to go anywhere that's not baptist. I would love the home church option, but how do you go about finding one???? I can't start one. If you don't know anyone who does one, how do you find one and not feel like you are crashing someone else's intimate little group? Okay, so this is a totally different topic that I may start a new post about.

Iveyrock

11-18-2009, 01:49 PM

Firebird Rising

11-18-2009, 02:02 PM

We are in a Messianic home group and I wouldn't trade it for the world. Between our three families, there are a total of 14 kids, ranging from 18 months to 17 yrs. Two of us are due just after Christmas with more babies.

We have a two room building we meet in. It's small. All the kids start with the adults for the beginning of service, through the songs and then the youngers go out to the other room with the olders for about 1/2 hour. Then the kids all get brought back in for Torah reading (lots of scripture) which lasts about 20 minutes. There is a short discussion afterward while the kids are sent back out to the other room. Then kids are back in for a childrens' blessing and then service is over. There is usually one of the parents that heads out to monitor the youngers each time they are out of the main room. We have a few rough kids, to put it bluntly, that cause some injury to the littlest of our group.

I love having my kids in and out of service with me. I love being able to see my kids throughout worship and reading. I like having them hear what I hear and stretching them to reach higher than they might understand now. I watch the older kids that were raised this way and they enjoy the times they are not on baby duty and get to stay in service.

Just my experience and thoughts.

Jen D.