What is wrong with first time obedience?

[Titus2:5Catholic]

I've been reading in my spare time, trying to get some tools in my toolbox.
From the posts on this board and the links I've been browsing at, I'm getting the opinion that first time obedience is not something that is aimed for with GBD. Why not? Isn't it a safety issue, even? If not a sanity issue. ;)
I'm sure you've heard the concept "delayed obedience is no obedience". Is that approach wrong as well? :shrug

I'm not trying to be challenging, just honestly asking. Please fill me in.

[chelsea]

I'm not going to answer since I'm still a little confused about that and struggling with it as well. I'll let the others give their advice and I'll be listening along with you! :shrug

[Mothering by Heart]

I know there is more to it, but here is a litle of my experience with it:

I was expected to obey the first time every time. I would be punished if I didn't.(hit)
My mom never took into account what I was doing at the time, or if I had a reasonable explanation of why I couldn't. I just had to do it.
I think it is very disrespectful to expect someone to jump when you want something done. It caused me to be afraid to speak up about my feelings. They didn't matter.

I also believe that it can cause a child to go against their own instincts.

[DebraBaker]

I think of the parable Jesus gave of the father who told his two sons to do some work. The first son said, "yes" and went off on his way and didn't do the work.

The other son said, "no" but started feeling his concsious and went back and did his father's work.

Jesus asks which son did his father's work. Obviously the second son.

If my child is slow to obey there could be something deeper going on.

Also, children are children they are, in a sense, our apprentices. I don't expect my children to be perfect all the time with the right responses. One of my jobs as a mom is to guide them toward making good decisions.

Eventually these children will learn right from wrong and choose right from their own heart not because someone demanded immediate, cheerful, first time obedience.

Debra Baker

[greenemama]

nothing's wrong with it! :) i think that the problem lies in the parents' expectations regarding obedience, particularly in regard to what is age-appropriate behavior and what is not. a small child does not have the impulse control to obey perfectly and immediately. often, their brains are still processing the instructions given when we think they should have obeyed already! this is why calling all delayed obedience disobedience is not a developmentally appropriate practice, kwim?

theologically, are we, as christian adults required to obey immediately? what about seeking out a matter in prayer, or asking counsel from a multitude of counselors? instant obedience to God is *not* required of us -- obedience is required, but God expects us to consider a matter wisely! in that regard, who are we to require *more* of our children than God requires of us? :eek

practically, in places that we may have safety issues with we make sure that we are right there to prevent problems! we also play lots of "stop and go" games so that when i call out "stop" at random henry will know what to do -- and he does it *most* of the time! :)

as far as sanity goes, well.... i can't help you there. i'm a crazy mama by now. ;)

when henry will not comply immediately i don't give him a lot of chances to do it -- i go to him and *make* it happen. this teaches him that mama means business and if he wants to do it without "help" then he has to do it the first time i tell him, make sense?

and i think that people also confuse obedience with compliance. obedience can't be forced, compliance can.

i know more mamas have more info but that's what i've got right now. :)

[Soliloquy]

I think the difference lies in parents' expectations and their respect for their children as human beings. I'm not against children obeying--I'm against parents demanding instantaneous obedience.

When my DH asks me to do something, like wash his softball uniform, he doesn't (dare ;)) expect that I drop everything and go wash it. We both know what day his game is on and he trusts that I'll have it done in time. If game day comes and it's not done, he knows there was a very good reason for it. He knows I wouldn't intentionally let him down.

If I ask a child to set the table for dinner, I ask in this way-- "Dinner will be ready in 10 minutes and I need you to have the table ready in time. Would you like me to remind you again in 5 minutes or would you like to handle it yourself?" If the child is too young to handle this much responsibility, I'll leave out the second part and just automatically remind them again in 5 minutes. If the child is even younger than that, we just set the table together.

I think that parents who are coming from a punitive background (whether from their own childhood or experiences with their own children) assume a battle of wills is just around the corner. They assume that children don't want to help out. When parents begin to assume positive intent, treat everyone with respect, and work with their children as a team, battles of the will are almost non-existent. If a child doesn't "obey" immediately, there's a very good reason for it. Children who are treated with love and respect don't intentionally let their parents down.

[Katherine]

There's nothing *wrong* with first time obedience, but I do not believe parents are responsible for eliciting this response from their children (nor are they able, if the truth be told). Parents who appear to have control over their children's behavior do NOT have control over their hearts. Here are some of my thoughsts:

Obedience is when WE *choose* to willingly submit to appropriate authority. It comes from the heart, and the command for children to obey/honor their parents is addressed to children; there is no command for parents to MAKE their children obey. Obedience involves a decision and attitude of the heart. Also it's worth noting that the philosophies which teach FTO typically teach that repetitive punishments are the way to obtain it. :(

Like Mollie said, people also confuse obedience with compliance. obedience can't be forced, compliance can. I am learning (trying to learn :O ) to teach my children that I expect their compliance, but that doesn't include demanding a happy attitude. If they are having a hard time doing what I say, then I increase my level of help and involvement until my directive has been met. (and my children are still young; I have no problem with allowing natural and logical consequences as children get older, although I still think it's best to try to help them be successful with positive techniques first)

Demanding FTO short-circuits the intellectual development process in kids, IMO. It doesn't allow needed skills to develop: skills like questioning, evaluating, prioritizing, problem-solving, negotiating, transitioning, and keeping a mental "to-do" list in heads. It keeps them subservient and doesn't allow them to mature and develop true responsibility and self-management. My 3yo will frequently say when I tell him to do something, "I am doing X. When I finish X I will do Y." Quite often, that is fine with me, and I just keep an eye on him to see if he remembers. ;) Other times I set a limit.. " You have 2 min. to finish X, b/c you need to do Y soon." or I will reject his counter offer and let him know he needs to stop what he is doing immediately to do X. Demanding FTO often gives parents an "out"--it by-passes the process of TEACHING their kids how to work through difficult situations, cope with big feelings, express their wants/desires in a respectful way, or find creative solutions to everyday problems.

Demanding FTO develops selfishness, controlling tendencies, and entitlement issues in parents. (Again, my opinion.. based on both my experience as a child and as a punitive obedience-demanding parent :blush ) We don't have the "right" to never be inconvenienced by our kids. Usually when I am find that I am wanting to demand FTO from my kids, it's when I'm tired, grouchy, busy, irritable, and not wanting to put any effort into dealing with them.

Demanding FTO sets up a dangerous mindset of blindly responding to authority with no regard for your own instincts, thoughts, feelings, opinions, or circumstances. This paves the way for mistreatment at the hands of unscrupulous or domineering people, legalistic churches, overbearing bosses, emotionally unhealthy spouses/friends/family members. Basically, it teaches kids that they should never have boundaries where an authority figure is concerned.

This was touched on in previous posts... . Demanding FTO gets parents *out* of the habit of being perceptive and observant where their kids are concerned. They don't look for causes of behavior... they simply react to undesirable behavior. They don't take an investigative approach or consider real and tangible, though often subtle, issues going on with their kids. Ex: What if a child has a mild sensitivity to some food and KNOWS that it makes him feel bad, but parents demand that he eat it b/c they feel he is resisting their authority? Basically, FTO oversimplifies the parent-child relationship, and positions the parent as the more important party in the relationship. :td :(

I am not aware of any Biblical precedent for FTO--either in the form of God's "parenting" of His children, or instructions given to us as earthly parents.

I AM teaching my children about their responsibility to obey and respect us as parents, and I do require compliance on many issues. I came from a FTO mindset, and sometimes I still struggle with how to keep my authority in balance while maintaining standards that are firm and appropriate. :shrug It's a learning process.. as parenting always is. :)

[TulipMama]

Wow, palil.

Yeah. What she said. *grin*

[mamahammer]

My major responsibility as a mother is to raise my children in the way God is "raising" me. I truly believe on a deep level that I am to model to my children the love and grace of God - so that they are able to tangibly see this relationship and learn about God's love for us. In that vein, I know that God doesn't expect immediate compliance from me, and He certainly doesn't punish me for taking my time to think through decisions and actions. So, I don't carry those expectations through to my children, either. The more I learn about God and experience His will for my life, the more I am able to trust Him and His guidance - thus resulting in more timely obedience to Him. Same thing with my children. As they grow, they will hopefully learn to trust in my guidance and my absolute love for them, and thus will desire to comply to my requests. Until then, I will speak my requests to them in a gentle manner, give them reasonable time to comply, or tell me respectfully why they do not think they *should* comply, and then help them comply if need be.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

I love what everyone is saying. It's something I've thought about before- especially when I've demanded fto based on my perspective and then realized my child was in the right, and just wasn't able to communicate it in an understandable fashion. I also found myself saying "It doesn't matter" or "I don't care" a lot. But I'm also thinking- what about the times you NEED your child to listen. If you don't give them an immediate negative consequence for misbehavior, what happens in those times....

Just trying to sort all this out in my mind.

[Soliloquy]

But I'm also thinking- what about the times you NEED your child to listen. If you don't give them an immediate negative consequence for misbehavior, what happens in those times....

Just trying to sort all this out in my mind.


have you read the 5 steps? If you NEED them to do something and they aren't (for example stop running towards the street or put on their shoes to go) then you physically help them. The post about the 5 steps explains it better than I just have . . .

[Soliloquy]

http://www.gentlechristianmothers.com/mb/index.php?topic=250.0

here's the thread w/ the 5 steps--I hope it helps!

[Katherine]

Wow, palil.

Yeah. What she said. *grin*

I had already been thinking about this today... :shifty I'm drawn to posting about the issues I'm currently struggling with-guess it helps me to sort things out and encourage *myself* while I'm sharing with others. Today was one of the worst days I"ve had in a long time in terms of feeling that angry "just DO what I SAY... nooooow!" urge. :blush Ds kept having to remind me to use a nice voice and trying to help me "feel better"; one time he just looked at me and said "shhhhhhhh!" Don't you love it when they GBD you?! :laughtears Thank goodness that tomorrow is another day. :O

But I'm also thinking- what about the times you NEED your child to listen. If you don't give them an immediate negative consequence for misbehavior, what happens in those times....

I was really hung up on this for awhile, too. Pearl's examples of safety training really made an impression on me. More on this later... cause it's way past bed time here. ;) [yawn]

[greenemama]

We don't have the "right" to never be inconvenienced by our kids. Usually when I am find that I am wanting to demand FTO from my kids, it's when I'm tired, grouchy, busy, irritable, and not wanting to put any effort into dealing with them.

this is so, so true.

paula, you're inspiring. :)

I'm drawn to posting about the issues I'm currently struggling with-guess it helps me to sort things out and encourage *myself* while I'm sharing with others. Today was one of the worst days I"ve had in a long time in terms of feeling that angry "just DO what I SAY... nooooow!" urge.

me, too. and you know, i think that i feel more accountable for my actions towards my children when i know i've just been reading or talking about the same exact situations on here. :shifty i also think that the things that are already hard are magnified after we've been discussing them on here. dunno why, but . . . that's what's been happening here. :think

[ellies mom]

I think one way to look at the idea of "first time obedience", is something I started thinking about after reading the "why not time-outs" post. It is kind of a "do unto others" thing, or how would you like it if.... Sometimes it really helps to put yourself in their shoes. An example that I read around here somewhere is as follows. If you are working on the computer, and someone tells you to come out of the room, are you disobeying if you take the time to finish your sentence, save your work and shut down the computer? At the very least that would be delayed obedience which some would consider disobedience. How would you feel if that person flipped out because they had to call twice? Even though it may appear that our children are doing things that can be just dropped, in their minds they may have to finish a sentence as well.

I agree that we all worry about "safety obedience", but sometimes I think that is used as justification for punitive punishment. I'm going to stop here, because I don't have words to explain further.

[DebraBaker]

I think its important to develop tone so when your children hear a tone in your voice she knows that its a serious matter.

It's nothing you can reherse and should be reserved for real emergencies.

I think kids instinctually know the tone.

Plus you should *never* put a little child in a situation in which their immediate obedience is required for their safety. If you know what I mean.

Debra Baker

[APMamaX4]

When my DH asks me to do something, like wash his softball uniform, he doesn't (dare ) expect that I drop everything and go wash it. We both know what day his game is on and he trusts that I'll have it done in time. If game day comes and it's not done, he knows there was a very good reason for it. He knows I wouldn't intentionally let him down.


Yes yes YES!!! Very good analogy! You have a relationship w/your dh such that you just "know" that each other will do what you can to please the other, and he doesn't just assume that you are defying him or being rude if you don't drop what you are doing right that second and do what he demands. It's the same way with our children :D

Insert Quote
There's nothing *wrong* with first time obedience, but I do not believe parents are responsible for eliciting this response from their children (nor are they able, if the truth be told). Parents who appear to have control over their children's behavior do NOT have control over their hearts. Here are some of my thoughsts:

Obedience is when WE *choose* to willingly submit to appropriate authority. It comes from the heart, and the command for children to obey/honor their parents is addressed to children; there is no command for parents to MAKE their children obey. Obedience involves a decision and attitude of the heart. Also it's worth noting that the philosophies which teach FTO typically teach that repetitive punishments are the way to obtain it.

Like Mollie said,
Quote
people also confuse obedience with compliance. obedience can't be forced, compliance can. I am learning (trying to learn ) to teach my children that I expect their compliance, but that doesn't include demanding a happy attitude. If they are having a hard time doing what I say, then I increase my level of help and involvement until my directive has been met. (and my children are still young; I have no problem with allowing natural and logical consequences as children get older, although I still think it's best to try to help them be successful with positive techniques first)

Demanding FTO short-circuits the intellectual development process in kids, IMO. It doesn't allow needed skills to develop: skills like questioning, evaluating, prioritizing, problem-solving, negotiating, transitioning, and keeping a mental "to-do" list in heads. It keeps them subservient and doesn't allow them to mature and develop true responsibility and self-management. My 3yo will frequently say when I tell him to do something, "I am doing X. When I finish X I will do Y." Quite often, that is fine with me, and I just keep an eye on him to see if he remembers. Other times I set a limit.. " You have 2 min. to finish X, b/c you need to do Y soon." or I will reject his counter offer and let him know he needs to stop what he is doing immediately to do X. Demanding FTO often gives parents an "out"--it by-passes the process of TEACHING their kids how to work through difficult situations, cope with big feelings, express their wants/desires in a respectful way, or find creative solutions to everyday problems.

Demanding FTO develops selfishness, controlling tendencies, and entitlement issues in parents. (Again, my opinion.. based on both my experience as a child and as a punitive obedience-demanding parent ) We don't have the "right" to never be inconvenienced by our kids. Usually when I am find that I am wanting to demand FTO from my kids, it's when I'm tired, grouchy, busy, irritable, and not wanting to put any effort into dealing with them.

Demanding FTO sets up a dangerous mindset of blindly responding to authority with no regard for your own instincts, thoughts, feelings, opinions, or circumstances. This paves the way for mistreatment at the hands of unscrupulous or domineering people, legalistic churches, overbearing bosses, emotionally unhealthy spouses/friends/family members. Basically, it teaches kids that they should never have boundaries where an authority figure is concerned.

This was touched on in previous posts... . Demanding FTO gets parents *out* of the habit of being perceptive and observant where their kids are concerned. They don't look for causes of behavior... they simply react to undesirable behavior. They don't take an investigative approach or consider real and tangible, though often subtle, issues going on with their kids. Ex: What if a child has a mild sensitivity to some food and KNOWS that it makes him feel bad, but parents demand that he eat it b/c they feel he is resisting their authority? Basically, FTO oversimplifies the parent-child relationship, and positions the parent as the more important party in the relationship.

I am not aware of any Biblical precedent for FTO--either in the form of God's "parenting" of His children, or instructions given to us as earthly parents.

I AM teaching my children about their responsibility to obey and respect us as parents, and I do require compliance on many issues. I came from a FTO mindset, and sometimes I still struggle with how to keep my authority in balance while maintaining standards that are firm and appropriate. It's a learning process.. as parenting always is.

:tu :tu :tu

I don't even know what to say. Palil totally and completely hit ALL of the nails on the head, and saved me from typing ;)

[APMamaX4]

practically, in places that we may have safety issues with we make sure that we are right there to prevent problems! we also play lots of "stop and go" games so that when i call out "stop" at random henry will know what to do -- and he does it *most* of the time!

This was something touched upon in "Positive Time Out". She says that spanking parents always throw out the "but I dont want them to get hit by a car, so I spank when they run towards the road, blah blah blah.." She said that she then asks "Now that you have spanked them, are you going to let them play near the road?" (you know, since they "had to learn....and had to be spanked", *surely this now means that they can play alone near the road, right? ;) ) Of course, she says, the answer is always "No! they can only be near the road when I'm around!" I think this pretty much speaks for itself!! Clearly, any parent knows that even if you are spanking for that, it doesn't stop there----you must SUPERVISE them, STILL. So then, *why bother spanking* if you are still gonna be there to supervise and proactively make sure it doesn't happen?! It is so STUPID, when you really think about it!!! What is the point, if it doesn't work??

She also made a very good rebuttal to those who spank b/c "I dont want to be 'redirecting' them all day or 'gentle discipling' all day long." She says, these *same people* are the ones who are spanking/doling out 'training swats' ALL DAY LONG!! ROFL Sheesh!!

[Titus2:5Catholic]

This was something touched upon in "Positive Time Out". She says that spanking parents always throw out the "but I dont want them to get hit by a car, so I spank when they run towards the road, blah blah blah.." She said that she then asks "Now that you have spanked them, are you going to let them play near the road?" (you know, since they "had to learn....and had to be spanked", *surely this now means that they can play alone near the road, right? ;) ) Of course, she says, the answer is always "No! they can only be near the road when I'm around!" I think this pretty much speaks for itself!! Clearly, any parent knows that even if you are spanking for that, it doesn't stop there----you must SUPERVISE them, STILL. So then, *why bother spanking* if you are still gonna be there to supervise and proactively make sure it doesn't happen?! It is so STUPID, when you really think about it!!! What is the point, if it doesn't work??

True. I've always said I think for safety issues you train and supervise. I know a TTUAC couple that doesn't feel they have to keep their guns away because their children are trained.

She also made a very good rebuttal to those who spank b/c "I dont want to be 'redirecting' them all day or 'gentle discipling' all day long." She says, these *same people* are the ones who are spanking/doling out 'training swats' ALL DAY LONG!! ROFL Sheesh!!


This is actually a major reason I'm considering stopping spanking. I'm spanking all day long when I'm really trying to be consistant like they say. If I'm going to do that, I might as well redirect them all day long.

[Katherine]

But I'm also thinking- what about the times you NEED your child to listen. If you don't give them an immediate negative consequence for misbehavior, what happens in those times....

The bottom line for me is that things like sincerity, humility, and urgency in my voice have a profound affect on how my children respond to me. Truthfully, safety issues were a much bigger problem for us when we were punitive. Ds was just so used to resisting us... so entrenched in either fighting back when we punished him or running away to avoid being punished..... that it was the natural thing to do. If he was holding something dangerous, and I told him to put it down, he didn't recognize that as any different from the other challenges I laid in front of him all day long... It was just the same old drill--another battle... another line drawn in the sand. If my voice was urgent or upset, he just knew that this item must be *really* special and was worth fighting for or even getting spanked for. I could see it in his eyes when I told him to give something to me-he was weighing the possibilities. As we gradually started to work together more and I began showing respect and consideration for his feelings, personal space, opinions, and desires; then he began to have more respect and consideration for the things I said. He began to trust my intentions and respond to the different tones in my voice.

I've always said I think for safety issues you train and supervise. I know a TTUAC couple that doesn't feel they have to keep their guns away because their children are trained.

I think my perspective has become that for ALL issues you *teach.* For ALL issues you supervise until you feel the child is mature enough to try it on his own AND the potential outcome if the child doesn't meet my expectations are within acceptable limits. For example, at some point I might leave a child alone with markers and crayons. What could possibly go wrong? Well, he could draw on things other than the paper, ruin something, make a mess, put them in his mouth (non-toxic), etc. Sure I don't want these things to happen, but at some point I might consider them unlikely enough that I'm willing to leave him unsupervised for a period of time. If I had a younger child who was *likely* to do these things, or to bite off a piece of crayon and create a choking hazard, then I would still supervise, b/c I'm not willing to accept that level of risk.

Leaving guns or dangerous chemicals where a child can access them carries risks that I am not willing to accept. I believe that keeping our children safe is a SEPARATE issue from teaching them obedience. Yes, the two intertwine frequently and cross paths many times in the course of a typical day, but we have to keep them separated. I need to teach obedience to my child within the confines of a safe environment, knowing that as time goes by I will have less control over his environment. That's when I'm hoping that my teaching and his maturity will kick in! ;) We all know (yes, even the Pearls) that kids will not obey 100% of the time, else why would there ever be any need for discussion on discipline? Why would we allow a situation where one mistake, one infraction, one innocent misjudgement, or one brief moment of "rebellion" (for those who view it that way) could cost our child his life?

With the gun example: I grew up in a pretty bad neighborhood where shootings, gangs, burgalaries, vandalism, and drugs were commonplace, and self-defense was a serious consideration--not just a hypothetical imagining. There came a time when my Dad trusted us with his guns, and kept a loaded gun in the house at a location we all were aware of. This time came AFTER my Dad had drilled gun safety rules into us verbally (he did this for years before we ever handled a gun) AFTER he felt we were mature enough to learn to handle them and after he had spent lots of time in hands-on teaching and target/handling practice. It also came with the understanding that no one in our family was emotionally unstable or suffered from psychological problems or depression, and that kids/teen were never present in our home without supervision. On occasions when we did have company, he would unload the gun and put it away just to be safe. Before we reached the point where he trusted in our maturity and in his teaching and practicing with us, he either didn't keep one loaded (when we were very small) or he kept one loaded in an inaccessible place and didn't tell us where it was.

I also think it's worth noting that the end does not justify the means. The Pearls trained their children not to touch guns by laying them out in the open--tempting their children--and then hitting them repeatedly whenever their natural, developmentally healthy curiosity took its course. What if they implanted an electrode in their bodies and zapped them every time they disobeyed? They might be well-trained, but would the end justify the means? Spanking is just a culturally acceptable version of this... it's still using pain and fear to modify behavior, and--the most important thing to remember--it's not fool-proof!! No matter what type of discipline you use, your kids aren't going to do what you want 100% of the time, even when you're not around! This is why I think it's important to treat safety issues separately.

ETA: How many accidental shootings have there been in homes where kids KNEW they would be punished or spanked for playing with the guns.. KNEW they were breaking the rules and chose to do it anyway? In a tragic event like that, I don't think I would be comforted by knowing that I had consistently "trained them" not to touch and they "knew better" or were "suffering the consequences of their own willful rebellion." :cry :/ kwim?

As far as better ways to handle safety issues, maybe you can post some specific examples and hear how others have handled it? (Maybe a new thread in Gentle Discipline?) That was really the thing that helped me the most to settle this safety-training issue in my own mind . :) :hug

[Titus2:5Catholic]

I also think it's worth noting that the end does not justify the means. The Pearls trained their children not to touch guns by laying them out in the open--tempting their children--and then hitting them repeatedly whenever their natural, developmentally healthy curiosity took its course. What if they implanted an electrode in their bodies and zapped them every time they disobeyed? They might be well-trained, but would the end justify the means? Spanking is just a culturally acceptable version of this... it's still using pain and fear to modify behavior, and--the most important thing to remember--it's not fool-proof!! No matter what type of discipline you use, your kids aren't going to do what you want 100% of the time, even when you're not around! This is why I think it's important to treat safety issues separately.


That makes a lot of sense. I've always been uncomfortable with the concept of training for safety and leaving it at that. I agree we should teach with all things.

If he was holding something dangerous, and I told him to put it down, he didn't recognize that as any different from the other challenges I laid in front of him all day long... It was just the same old drill--another battle... another line drawn in the sand. If my voice was urgent or upset, he just knew that this item must be *really* special and was worth fighting for or even getting spanked for. I could see it in his eyes when I told him to give something to me-he was weighing the possibilities. As we gradually started to work together more and I began showing respect and consideration for his feelings, personal space, opinions, and desires; then he began to have more respect and consideration for the things I said. He began to trust my intentions and respond to the different tones in my voice.

That is something that has bothered me lately: one size fits all, no matter what the offense, no matter who the child is, no matter what they're going through- obey and do it with a smile. I don't believe you can force a good attitude. I remember when I was (even a teenager!) and my dad would yell at me to stop crying. It never worked, and it always triggered this innate rage in me. Occasionally my husband will say "This isn't worth being upset about" and it always infuriates me. How do you know? Are you me? Do you feel and see things the way I do?

So much to think about.....

[APMamaX4]

I know a TTUAC couple that doesn't feel they have to keep their guns away because their children are trained

:eek But why am I not real surprised?!

I also agree with you about the 'one size fits all' mentality. Seems to be another thing you see quite often on a certain board. No matter what it was, you dole out a spanking. I think they actually think they are getting respect from their kids by having this 'no fuss, no muss' relationship. What really bothers me are all the new moms and young moms I see buying into that form of parenting. So sad, really. I wish they would come here and read some of the stories of people who have been down that road w/that style of parenting, and who now struggle with adverse relationships w/their kids that they are trying to make better. (Read my posts, in fact!) My relationship w/my older kids is getting much better, now that I have woken up and realized what was going on and shared about it both here and w/dh. But please don't learn the way I had to learn. All that talk about how you must be "tying strings" and such along with the ultra punitive parenting is hooey. There is NO WAY you can be "tying strings" *and* swatting your kids all day long. There is also no way that you don't EVER, at some point, swat/or give "real" spankings (they have a name for those) out of anger. Just no way, and dont believe them when they tell you that that's the "right" way. That is so cold and calculated.... :sick2

[Soliloquy]

I know a TTUAC couple that doesn't feel they have to keep their guns away because their children are trained


Michael Pearl brags about that in his book. His words are "I didn't gun-proof my home. I gun-proofed my children." :banghead

[Titus2:5Catholic]

I know a TTUAC couple that doesn't feel they have to keep their guns away because their children are trained
. All that talk about how you must be "tying strings" and such along with the ultra punitive parenting is hooey. There is NO WAY you can be "tying strings" *and* swatting your kids all day long. There is also no way that you don't EVER, at some point, swat/or give "real" spankings (they have a name for those) out of anger. Just no way, and dont believe them when they tell you that that's the "right" way. That is so cold and calculated.... :sick2


I tried to explain this to my DH. He agreed that *I* couldn't do it, but says he can do it. And, you know what, he's probably right, because one of his major strengths is pretty close to unlimited patience. Plus, he's a guy. But to do that, I have to shut off my mothering instincts- my sympathy, my feeling of being bonded, my compassion, really. And I can't just say "Ok, spanking's done" and turn them on again.

Oh, and the gun couple? How I found it out was that when we and another couple of families were over one of the kids got ahold of the gun. PTL nothing happened, but someone could have easily got killed. Our kids must stay by us when we go over there.

[chelsea]

Oh, and the gun couple? How I found it out was that when we and another couple of families were over one of the kids got ahold of the gun. PTL nothing happened, but someone could have easily got killed.
Yes, PTL that nothing happened! Probably if something had happened, the couple would have believed it happened because one of the other parents didn't spank their children enough (it's the kind of mindset taught in TTUAC and other books like that)! :rolleyes

[Titus2:5Catholic]

I was told that before I left that night. "That mother doesn't do TTUAC right".

This is one of the reasons why I haven't talked to anyone except DH about this; over half our church uses TTUAC and I only know of one non-spanker and from then on out, whenever my kids misbehaved, it would be because I wasn't using TTUAC.

[Katherine]

over half our church uses TTUAC and I only know of one non-spanker and from then on out, whenever my kids misbehaved, it would be because I wasn't using TTUAC.

:hugheart That's got to be hard... to function in an environment like that. :(

We didn't know anyone else (locally) who used TTUAC and I still felt that pressure of "not doing it right." He weaves this fail-proof into all his books so that the blame for any struggle lands squarely on the shoulders of someone other than him. :mad Either the kids are horribly rebellious and wilful, or the parents aren't doing it right... aren't praying enough.. don't have a strong enough relationship with God.. haven't put their own "compassion" issues behind them for the good of their children, etc. :hissyfit

It was one of the things I hated most about his book--even while we were trying it. (oh, but I forgot... you can't "try" his methods. If you "try" you will fail. You have to be totally committed to it and do it 100% Didn't Yoda already say that... ? "Try not. DO.. or do not. There is no try") :laughtears I always got frustrated when I tried to refer back to his writings for help.. I just felt guilty, incompetent, and stuck between a rock and a hard place. :banghead I've had enough guilt and shame spirituality for one lifetime, kwim?

[TulipMama]

He weaves this fail-proof into all his books so that the blame for any struggle lands squarely on the shoulders of someone other than him. mad Either the kids are horribly rebellious and wilful, or the parents aren't doing it right... aren't praying enough.. don't have a strong enough relationship with God.. haven't put their own "compassion" issues behind them for the good of their children, etc.

*hug*

I find this to be true of most punitive teachers.

Why not just recognize that God has created us as individuals? The only one-size-fits-all thing is our need for Christ! (And even there, we don't have cookie-cutter relationships with the Lord!)

[LAS]

We didn't know anyone else (locally) who used TTUAC and I still felt that pressure of "not doing it right." He weaves this fail-proof into all his books so that the blame for any struggle lands squarely on the shoulders of someone other than him. mad Either the kids are horribly rebellious and wilful, or the parents aren't doing it right... aren't praying enough.. don't have a strong enough relationship with God.. haven't put their own "compassion" issues behind them for the good of their children, etc. hissy fit

It was one of the things I hated most about his book--even while we were trying it. (oh, but I forgot... you can't "try" his methods. If you "try" you will fail. You have to be totally committed to it and do it 100% Didn't Yoda already say that... ? "Try not. DO.. or do not. There is no try") laughing so hard you're crying I always got frustrated when I tried to refer back to his writings for help.. I just felt guilty, incompetent, and stuck between a rock and a hard place. bang head I've had enough guilt and shame spirituality for one lifetime, kwim?

I always eagerly read your posts, palil. This is the main thing that caused us to question the parenting methods we were learning about and being taught. I also had this problem with Shepherding a Child's Heart. It all sounded good when I read it, but didn't translate well into real life. And of course, I put the blame and guilt all upon myself.

TulipMama posted a good link to a blog on this topic a while back. It was really helpful to me. It's at: http://motherceo.blogspot.com/2005/04/stench-of-legalism.html

[ArmsOfLove]

You know, something happened yesterday that made me think of this thread. Our homeschool group is developing a code of conduct--nothing intense. Basically it's just 5 points: parents are responsible for their own children, respect others, respect property, dress modestly, and seek conflict resolution according to Matt 18. Anyway, in doing research for what we wanted the other mom working on this with me emailed a bunch of homeschool group leaders and got back their codes or what they have--everything from the incredibly legalistic to the incredibly gracious. We got some good ideas from all of it. Anyway, she got one back that said, "Well, we just don't have behavior problems in our group" :rolleyes They did send her another groups code of conduct that they were aware of, but then stuck a huge quote from TTUAC at the bottom (I'm sure why they believe they don't have behavior problems :rolleyes). The annoying thing is . . . we don't either! Honestly, we've had one issue that truly had to be dealt with and it was and resolved. We just wanted to develop the code of conduct so that as we grow we are all agreeing to certain basic things.

anyway, made me think of this.

[Titus2:5Catholic]

He weaves this fail-proof into all his books so that the blame for any struggle lands squarely on the shoulders of someone other than him. :mad Either the kids are horribly rebellious and wilful, or the parents aren't doing it right... aren't praying enough.. don't have a strong enough relationship with God.. haven't put their own "compassion" issues behind them for the good of their children, etc. :hissyfit
I always got frustrated when I tried to refer back to his writings for help.. I just felt guilty, incompetent, and stuck between a rock and a hard place. :banghead I've had enough guilt and shame spirituality for one lifetime, kwim?


:clap
This is what I have loved most about this last week, since I had this feeling that our discipline might be the problem of what I was feeling. I don't have to be perfect. My kids don't have to be perfect. Yippee!

[hsgbdmama]

Thank you for starting this thread and to everyone for their wonderful, invaluable input! On another board I'm on, FTO is occasionally brought up, but it is along the lines of, "We're doing first-time obedience with our dc today, and each time they didn't obey the first time, they got spanked." :eek :cry So that has been my understanding of FTO until now.

It certainly makes sense to help the child understand through you coming to them to help them through the action that you mean business. It would also make sense to explain why it is you need them to do the action right away, while you are helping them (i.e., "I need you to do x right away when I ask you to do it because _______________. So the next time I ask you to do this, will you do it right away? Good."), and keep reinforcing it, thanking them when they do it.

:heart

[garrettsmommy]

The one issue I have that pops into my head at this moment that I require FTO for is standing in the bathtub. For instance, last night, Ds stood up and I told him I needed him to sit down because it's dangerous to stand in the tub. He didn't. I then asked "do you need mommy to help you sit down or can you do it all on your own". He still didn't sit. Then I sat him down. He cried and started saying "baby do it". (baby is what he calls himself) I then allowed him (with my holding his hand) to stand up and then sit down right away all on his own. I'm now wondering if I should have allowed him to stand again. I mean, isn't that the thing I was just requiring FTO on?? Did I make a mistake by allowing him to stand again when I had just told him that it is dangerous. Most of the time I think that it's good that I give him a 2nd chance to do something on his own. 99% of the time if I give him the 2nd chance he will do whatever it is that I'm asking him to do but I'm questioning this one thing since it is a safety issue.

[Katherine]

I think what you did is fine! He wanted to "do it" himself--go through the act of sitting down.. follow instructions without help. And you kept him safe by holding his hand while giving him the opportunity to do himself. :tu

And, incidentally, I wouldn't consider that requiring FTO in the punitive sense b/c you didn't punish him immediately for not sitting on your first command. You offered him a chance to comply on his own, then helped him to comply, then kept him safe while letting him reinforce the process by doing it himself. :clap :) Also, you didn't require him to "be happy" and willing--just to be safe. ;)

I've had to get pretty strict about bathtub rules with my boys cause they get super wound up in the tub. :) They get a reminder of the rules at the beginning, one warning if they break them, and after that bathtime (at least the playing portion of it) is over. :shrug But they are older and definitely understand. They primary way that I "help" them comply is by putting them in the bath tub one at a time instead of together. They usually have no problem following the rules if they are by themselves--it's when they are taking a bath together that things tend to get crazy. :D

[hsgbdmama]

The one issue I have that pops into my head at this moment that I require FTO for is standing in the bathtub.


I also think you did fine -- you explained why you needed him to obey it (safety issue), and you helped him do it. His wanting to do it himself is good also because that means he understands. The real test will be the next time he takes a bath -- will he sit down when you tell him to. :-)

[Grover]

[We don't have the "right" to never be inconvenienced by our kids. Usually when I am find that I am wanting to demand FTO from my kids, it's when I'm tired, grouchy, busy, irritable, and not wanting to put any effort into dealing with them.
/quote]
:heart i need to paste that on a kitchen cupboard thankyou