Why are most parenting programs/ministries headed up by men?

[butterflyqueen71]

James Dobson
Gary Ezzo
Tim Kimmel
Kevin Lehman
Dennis Rainey
Dr. Sears
Dr. Phil

To name a few. Maybe I'm out in left field here, but I've noticed this trend among most of the "popular" Christian ministries. I find it strange, since most of these men were probably the type that worked outside the home while their wives stayed home with the children. My dh is clueless about "raising children". He leaves just about everything up to me and just sort of "goes along" with it. :rolleyes Doesn't the Bible say that the older women should teach the younger when it comes to the home (which includes children). How do these men come by their "expertise" when it comes to rearing children and nurturing them? I can see fathers mentoring fathers and men showing men how to be godly men and fathers to their children. But it seems to me these men go beyond that.

With the exception of Dr. Sears, how can you look to a man for advice on nurturing children? What's up with that? And even with Dr. Sears...isn't it interesting that a man coined the term "attachment parenting"? :shrug

Not that there aren't women out there who give great parenting advice, but it seems the "mainstream" ministries are all head up by men. Anyone have any insights as to why?

[kris10s]

In evangelicalism, men head up almost all the ministries in general. :shrug

[greenemama]

hmmm. i don't know why, either. dr. sears encourages dads to listen to their wives instincts, though. maybe that's why he's so popular around these parts. ;)

[Katherine]

Dr. Sears is a pediatrician, and I think that has a lot to do with his involvement in the "how to raise kids" movement. That puts him in a position of receiving daily questions about all manner of child-rearing issues, including feeding, sleeping, discipline, health, etc. I think he learned a lot by following the good mothering instincts of his own wife, and decided to develop and share these methods with a public who obviously needed some better options. And he does STRONGLY encourage men to listen to their wives' instincts in matters of child-rearing...

As for the others... I think it has a lot to do with the conservative Christian ideas prevalent in many churches that Men should be leaders in the community, in the church, and *especially* in their homes. The passage about the "Titus 2" woman is either glossed over, minimalized, or interpreted as older women encouraging younger women to submit to their husbands, stay in their "proper place" etc. :/

Also, I think women teaching child-rearing would cause offense and damage the pride of a lot of conservative men, b/c they would feel like a woman was teaching *them* how to manage their family and their kids. :shrug If it's women teaching women only, it's more easily accepted by very conservative people. If it's women teaching on a general topic, or teaching things that apply to both sexes, it meets with more resistance, IMO.

Unfortunate... I think it stems a lot from the controversial and often misunderstood issues of submission and women not having leadership roles in the church. :shrug :(

[milkmommy]

cause Men assume they know everything and we are forever discovering new things and ways :mrgreen
J/K (though I do feel some of the above do feel that way) :rolleyes Personally all the church parenting classes I have attended have eaither been run by moms or both mom and dad :shrug Guess I never thought of it.

Deanna

[Dizzy Blond]

Tim Kimmel has a doctorate in psychology & has been researching this for ages. He's GBD.

[Embracing Grace]

Doesn't Dr. Sears writes books jointly with his wife? I know the Baby Book and Attachment Parenting Book are written jointly.

[Tamara]

Yes, and Dr. Sears tells about how he left the childrearing to his wife for the first 4 and got involved after that. He learned from her and clearly gives her credit for teaching him about gentle parenting.

[DebraBaker]

Men tend to want to fix things and develop rules and formulas for success.

Women, on the other hand, tend to listen and offer emotional support. We don't necesarily have all the answers but may be more interactive and/or encourage parents (in this case) to think about which of many alternatives would work well for their families.

Also, there are a lot of conservative Christians who interperate certain passages of the Bible to say that one must have a penis to lead other people.

Debra Baker

[sadie]

Also, there are a lot of conservative Christians who interperate certain passages of the Bible to say that one must have a p*nis to lead other people.

:laughtears :laughtears :laughtears

Not just conservative Christians.

[domesticzookeeper]

Also, there are a lot of conservative Christians who interperate certain passages of the Bible to say that one must have a p*nis to lead other people.

oh...my...gosh... :laughtears :laughtears

That is sooo hilarious, I nearly busted out laughing right here in the computer lab :lol :lol :lol

[DebraBaker]

I never thought I'd be able to legitimately say this but....someone fooled around with my p#%!$.

:hissyfit :wow :laughtears

[DebraBaker]

Emily,

You need to use this icon :spit

[hsgbdmama]

The other piece of Scripture I look to is 2 Timothy 1, where Paul praises Timothy mother and grandmother -- mentioning them by name for the faith they instilled in (taught to) Timothy. :tu :amen

[Titus2:5Catholic]

As for the others... I think it has a lot to do with the conservative Christian ideas prevalent in many churches that Men should be leaders in the community, in the church, and *especially* in their homes. The passage about the "Titus 2" woman is either glossed over, minimalized, or interpreted as older women encouraging younger women to submit to their husbands, stay in their "proper place" etc. :/

Unfortunate... I think it stems a lot from the controversial and often misunderstood issues of submission and women not having leadership roles in the church. :shrug :(


Well....I certainly believe that women are to submit to their husbands and not to hold leadership positions in the church. I don't think that has anything to do with this. A woman doesn't need to be a pastor/priest or head a parenting ministry to write a book on parenting, or help the young mother in the pew next to her.

I think the problem is that our society has got to where "experts" are to tell us how to do everything. The concept that God could have equipped mothers for parenting without validation from a doctor, pastor, et al. is just ridiculous. But Titus talks about the older women teaching the younger women, not the pastor teaching the younger women. There is a GREAT article by a Helen someone on this.....I think it used to be on this site. Now the older women are having 1.1 children (no offense meant to any mothers of only children here!) and going off to work, so they're bottlefeeding, using birth control, and they aren't nurturing their children anymore. And then the cycle perpetuates itself.
People are turning to pastors and doctors in areas that is not their job. They feel obligated to offer advice that is outside their realm, and when they're asked enough, they began to feel it IS their job to offer this advice.

[Katherine]

I don't think that has anything to do with this. A woman doesn't need to be a pastor/priest or head a parenting ministry to write a book on parenting, or help the young mother in the pew next to her.

While it's true that any woman can write a book on gentle or positive discipline, many conservative Christian men would not be willing to place themselves under the *teaching* of a woman due to their ideas about gender roles and what constitutes proper religious leadership.... especially if the ideas in that book went agaist the grain of their own punitive-minded churches or upbringing. Depending on how the wives of those men viewed Biblical submission, they might turn away from their own instincts and follow their husband's belief in punitive parenting in the name of wifely submission. :( I've seen this in many real life families.

But Titus talks about the older women teaching the younger women, not the pastor teaching the younger women

In many cases, the wife shares her husband's understanding of these issues and will reject the advice of an older woman if it doesn't concur with "proper" teaching by someone in religious leadership (which would have to be a man if she believes that only men should hold those positions)

Not trying to debate the issues of submission or leadership here... Just explaining why I've come to believe that some beliefs on these topics *can* contribute to motherly instincts being downplayed at best and condemned at worst--at least in conservative circles. :hug

I think the problem is that our society has got to where "experts" are to tell us how to do everything...... People are turning to pastors and doctors in areas that is not their job. They feel obligated to offer advice that is outside their realm, and when they're asked enough, they began to feel it IS their job to offer this advice.

I totally agree! :)

[DebraBaker]

But at the same time it truely boggles my mind how many of these pompous men can teach autoritively to women on how to be mothers.

.....Or how to birth and breastfeed for that matter.

Debra Baker

[Hannah Jo]

This is really interesting.

Lisa Whelchel (the one who advocates hot sauce on the tongue for lying) is popular in Christian circles, and many conservative Christians like Dobson are willing to overlook the fact that she is not a man. I tend to think this has less to do with her wisdom and more to do with the fact that she starred in the Facts of Life.

[butterflyqueen71]

But at the same time it truely boggles my mind how many of these pompous men can teach autoritively to women on how to be mothers.

.....Or how to birth and breastfeed for that matter.

Exactly. I mean, what about the guy who wrote "The Happiest Baby on the Block?" Or Dr. Spock? (I guess he's outdated nowadays? :shrug but still!).

You have a few women out there who are ministering to other women in a wider sphere like Lisa Welchel, the MOPS lady, etc. But they are still "guests" on the shows of these MEN, like Dobson and Dennis Rainey.

And since when is motherhood an issue of "submission"?! Does a wife's "duty" to submit supercede her role as a mother? If you subscribe to this line of thinking that wives are to submit, period?

In our home, when it come to matters of childcare, information, research, etc., my dh submits to me. We work as a team, but he knows that I do all the "leg work" and he trusts me as the mother of his child and trusts my judgement and my instincts. He looks to me for leadership in this area. I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. I guess it just seems strange to me that these men purport themselves to be "experts" in a job that they can never, ever do!

With the exception of Dr. Sears, who IMO displays great humility and balance. The difference with him is that he is a pediatrician, not a minister, so he's not coming from a theologically based attitude towards women. And you know, I think another difference with him is that I have a sense that he truly values women and respects them. He doesn't see them as...how can I say this...2nd class, kwim? Not that these other men do...but I think that there's a subliminal message that is passed through certain conservative circles that women are "less" than a man in certain areas. So maybe they don't intentionally look down on women, but because of that subliminal message, it comes across that way? :shrug

Does that make sense? I'm sure I'm opening up a can of worms here! :mrgreen

[Titus2:5Catholic]

<<<While it's true that any woman can write a book on gentle or positive discipline, many conservative Christian men would not be willing to place themselves under the *teaching* of a woman due to their ideas about gender roles and what constitutes proper religious leadership.... especially if the ideas in that book went agaist the grain of their own punitive-minded churches or upbringing.>>>

I think you hit it in your last part- does it go agains their own pov that they have to begin with. I've been recommended Debi Pearl and Mary Pride's writings by many conservatives who don't believe in women in leadership. (I like most of Mary Pride's stuff, but she is punative).

<<<In many cases, the wife shares her husband's understanding of these issues and will reject the advice of an older woman if it doesn't concur with "proper" teaching by someone in religious leadership (which would have to be a man if she believes that only men should hold those positions)>>>

This is true. :sad2 I think though this comes less from male/female role beliefs and more from an improper understanding of what the role of religious leadership is in our lives. Some people will do whatever their pastor says no matter who he or she is.

[fourbygrace]

Sara mentioned an article by Helen Aardsma. She used to write a publication called A Mother's Companion (?). I have all of her articles, but they are packed in a box in my basement as we are selling our house. Here is what I remember:

She does talk about the Titus 2 passage and how she was convicted to only take advice from godly, older women in regards to mothering. She believed taking advice from men on the subject of mothering was not biblical.

I will try to find the box and look for that article. I couldn't find the website when I searched for it just now.

Blessings,
Mary

[TulipMama]

Mary, I think is this the Helen E. Aardsma article?

Woman to Woman (http://www.fix.net/~rprewett/womantowoman.html)

[katiekind]

I think Debra made a super point in that men tend to think in formulas and 5 point plans which easily translate into a parenting plan or answer a problem and therefore will appeal to people and sell books. (Even Sears is more that way than I'm comfortable with--and I love Sears.) Another thing male childrearing authors in history were all about: a desire to change the world based on simply manipulating how children are raised from infancy. They tend to assume that children are blank slates and if you simply do x to all of them with enough rigor, you'll get y and thus a society full of people who are z.

Women, on the other hand, once they have gained a lot of parenting experience, tend to think relationally about child-rearing. They know that children are very individual. They know that they've had to do things differently even within their own family from one child to the next. That knowledge tends to make you cautious about giving straight-up "here's what you do about that" advice. During the child-rearing years when they, too, may be laboring under some misconceptions about parenting, they are too busy to write books and later they have wised up too much to write parenting "manual"s!

[Vipers_Princess]

Dr. Sears is a pediatrician, and I think that has a lot to do with his involvement in the "how to raise kids" movement. That puts him in a position of receiving daily questions about all manner of child-rearing issues, including feeding, sleeping, discipline, health, etc. I think he learned a lot by following the good mothering instincts of his own wife, and decided to develop and share these methods with a public who obviously needed some better options. And he does STRONGLY encourage men to listen to their wives' instincts in matters of child-rearing...

As for the others... I think it has a lot to do with the conservative Christian ideas prevalent in many churches that Men should be leaders in the community, in the church, and *especially* in their homes. The passage about the "Titus 2" woman is either glossed over, minimalized, or interpreted as older women encouraging younger women to submit to their husbands, stay in their "proper place" etc. :/

Also, I think women teaching child-rearing would cause offense and damage the pride of a lot of conservative men, b/c they would feel like a woman was teaching *them* how to manage their family and their kids. :shrug If it's women teaching women only, it's more easily accepted by very conservative people. If it's women teaching on a general topic, or teaching things that apply to both sexes, it meets with more resistance, IMO.

Unfortunate... I think it stems a lot from the controversial and often misunderstood issues of submission and women not having leadership roles in the church. :shrug :(


This is pretty much my opinion as well. The patriarical {yea I know I butchered that word all to heck} systems that are allowed to run rampant in even some of the most modern churches, are a big part of the problem. The biggest part.What doesn't help is that so many women through either choice or conditioning, refuse to stand up and say that it's not right or Biblical...

[DebraBaker]

Quote from Kathy, "During the child-rearing years when they, too, may be laboring under some misconceptions about parenting, they are too busy to write books and later they have wised up too much to write parenting "manual"s!"

:highfive

Right on, I so agree....notice it's a *man*ual :giggle :giggle :giggle

[Tulip_Plus_3]

I think Debra made a super point in that men tend to think in formulas and 5 point plans which easily translate into a parenting plan or answer a problem and therefore will appeal to people and sell books. (Even Sears is more that way than I'm comfortable with--and I love Sears.) Another thing male childrearing authors in history were all about: a desire to change the world based on simply manipulating how children are raised from infancy. They tend to assume that children are blank slates and if you simply do x to all of them with enough rigor, you'll get y and thus a society full of people who are z.

Women, on the other hand, once they have gained a lot of parenting experience, tend to think relationally about child-rearing. They know that children are very individual. They know that they've had to do things differently even within their own family from one child to the next. That knowledge tends to make you cautious about giving straight-up "here's what you do about that" advice. During the child-rearing years when they, too, may be laboring under some misconceptions about parenting, they are too busy to write books and later they have wised up too much to write parenting "manual"s!


What an awesome insight!!! :dance

[Can Dance]

My .02 cents worth.

I think a lot of it has to do with what women have chosen for themselves. if you've chosen the path of mothering, its very likely that your "platfor rm" so to speak will be limited. Those men you mentioned have been "unshackled" in the sense that their wives were able to care for their children. Therefore to go down a path of psychologist or pediatrician is incredibly time consuming, I know Dr. Phil spent A LOT of time pursuing his career.
OTOH, I think that child care is a lot more flexible than we give it credit for. there are some general stereotypes, yes, but there are also some guys that are great with children. I think its sad that they feel that have to hide in in the Christian church because its seen as a feminine trait.
My husband and I consider ourselves to be co parents. that means that when he is around he cleans as many dirty bums as I do and reads just as many stories. I consciously made and effort to have him do this with me because I know how incredibly important a father is in any child's life. I wanted them to bond and play together. He is a GREAT dad and I am super thrilled that my dd demands to see his picture when he is gone. he loves it and they love each other to death. but I did have to take a step back and tell him often that just because I have the female equipment doesn't mean I know what I am doing anymore than he does! It was a learning process for both of us. :tu

[Tamara]

but I did have to take a step back and tell him often that just because I have the female equipment doesn't mean I know what I am doing anymore than he does! It was a learning process for both of us.

:laughtears

I need to remember that one for my dh. I always feel like a bad mom who can't do it right, yet he holds me up as some person to model after. :shrug Great quote. :tu

[HSing4Jesus]

I have edited my response to delete it as it was not edifying.... :shifty

In answer to the op, I also feel it is not right for men in general to teach women how to mother as it does not line up with the Titus 2 scripture of women teaching women to how love their husands and children.

As far as the smart mouth comments re: body parts relating to gender roles...well I won't comment because as I said my response was not edifying...and that's bad for the Christian testimony, not to mention the testimony to this website.

[Katherine]

I just want to say that I really feel that the 'man' bashing flair to this post is a very poor testimony to GCM....I personally, while agreeing that men should not be teaching how to mother, find the smart mouth puns here to be quite disrespectful towards men in general...... I find the smart (about men's private parts) mouth attitudes here to be even worse than the scenario's being discussed quite frankly..

I realize there are a few comments that are more blunt than some would prefer, and attitudes not everyone is comfortable with, but I do not believe the thread has crossed into man-bashing. :shrug However, your point to guard our words and maintain an attitude that is respectful and edifying is well taken. :)

I also am of the belief that because I am a woman that I am not qualified to teach/preach over men, and while some may disagree with me that is 'ok' but I sure wouldn't make nasty comments just because of it.......

I don't see where anyone is trying to attack your beliefs or be nasty.. :shrug simply expressing their own views on the subject (which obviously come from a wide variety of perspectives ;) )

For my part, I am not debating the issues of submission or women in leadership roles, as I explicitly stated in an earlier post. There's plenty of threads pertaining to that in other forums. :shifty

Not trying to debate the issues of submission or leadership here... Just explaining why I've come to believe that some beliefs on these topics *can* contribute to motherly instincts being downplayed at best and condemned at worst--at least in conservative circles.

I realize it's a bit ruffling to read responses or a thread that is laced with ideas you do not believe in or forms of expression that don't fall within your comfort zone. I've been there more than once. ;) :hug Being free to express our different thoughts/beliefs is an important part of the learning process, IMO.... and we all express them in our own unique way. :P I do not believe the ladies here have violated any board rules, and I'm sorry you felt offended. :grouphug

[HSing4Jesus]

I appreciate your kind words. :)

I never felt ruffled or uncomfortable with a difference of beliefs..I am quite mature enough and also grounded enough in my own beliefs to not feel threatened or defensive when someone states differing ones. :)

I personally found a thread going from 'do you notice that most minstries on child rearing are by men' to
some believe if you don't have a penis you can't teach to be very immature and frankly reminds me of my before Christ days of sitting in a bar with bawdy mouthed women. :shrug :shrug :shrug

So I suppose we'll have to just agree to disagree on the lines being crossed...and chalk it up to that's just 'me' personally. ;)

[Kat]

deleted for personal reasons

[Kat]

deleted

[HSing4Jesus]

asking my Sunday school class that if men have the primary responsibility of child rearing


I'm wondering what your denomination is...in the more conservative churches this would mean ultimately that since the husband/father is accountable as the leader of his family then he is the one responsible for his children's 'turning out'...does that make sense? ( not asking if you agree, just if what I was trying to explain made sense ) ;)

[Kat]

I'm Southern Baptist

[Can Dance]

Another simple explanation I was thinking about for this question is that partiarchy still exists. And humans still live under falleness, even in churches. therefore, women's tendency is to let men take over because of a myriad of reasons. but certainly not because they are unqualified!

[fourbygrace]

I have been lost in space, but the article that TulipMama posted is the Helen Aardsma I was talking about in my post.

I subscribed to her newsletter for 2 years and loved it, although it is no longer published. I found her to be a great mentor. She was very AP, but she did start using punitive discipline around the age of 2. :( She was still nursing them and co sleeping even then. She "tandum" nursed her infant and toddler/preschooler for 1 -2 years, I think.

Anyway, that article gave me something to think about that I had never heard before.

Blessings,
Mary