What would you do?

[callasandra]

What would you do? When visiting relatives who live out of state I always attend their church with them. This is a church that had classes on GKGW and has been influenced by the teachings of Douglas Wilson and Ted Tripp. During the service it is common to see some of the fathers frequently taking their small children out the of the service and I figured they were just taking them to the bathroom. Then I found out these children (mostly they are between ages 12mos to 5yrs) are being taken out and spanked for not obeying. Not obeying means they are told to stop moving a leg, keep still, not lean against the parent, sing when told to or stand up when told to and are being defiant which means they not instantly obeying with a cheerful attitude. These children are sitting right in front of me and I have never seen any of them disruptive in any way. They are well behaved, nice children so what I am seeing makes no sense to me. Some of these parents carry whackers in their pockets or purses. This is really offensive to me. On one Sunday I watched the father sitting ahead of me take his little daughter (about 3yrs old) out several times and for the life of me I couldn’t figure out why, I mean she was quietly sitting there. After the third time I got up to go to the bathroom and saw her taken into the pastors office. As I walked past the office I could hear her being spanked and crying. A few minutes I came back past the office and she was still being spanked and crying. At this point I opened the door to the outer office, looked into the inner office and saw the child on the floor crying with both parents lecturing her about obeying. I was so upset, if they had still been spanking her I think I would have opened the office door and said something, but since they had stopped I went back into the church service. My family could tell I was really upset by something. After the service I had the opportunity to speak with the pastor in his office, and there in his office laying on a table was wooden paddle with holes in it. I told him that I was concerned for the children I had seen taken out to be spanked, concerned that they would view God as punitive, or view church as the place where they got spanked and said I felt what I had seen was excessive. He wanted to know if I had ever taken mine out of a service to be spanked, my answer was no, it had never been necessary. Now this pastor knows both of my children, knows they are well-behaved dedicated followers of Christ. Part of the problem is that the relatives I am visiting are my daughter, son in law and 4 grandchildren and I feel that family should worship together rather than each going to their own church. I feel it is setting a unified front in front of the children. Talking to my daughter and son in law is out of the question; they have bought into this way of thinking. I so much want to say something, do something, and yet I feel helpless to do anything as I watch it. After the church service I have heard some of the moms say how frustrated they are because it seems to them that all they do is swat their children all day. It all makes me feel so sad. Any ideas or suggestions on what I could do or say?

[LadyBird]

Wow! That is amazing and so incredibly sad. I think what is most sad besides of course what these children are being put through emotionally and physically is the fact that you have a congregation of people that don't seem to be able to think for themselves! That to me is very "cult" like. I don't attend church probably because I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut if I witnessed what you did. I am very direct and don't have a problem making a scene. lol

Seems to me that the only way to make a difference in something like this if you really feel the need, would be to write to the church officials, expressing how your visit went and offer other suggestions Grace Based Discipline. (I am more extremem and would probably print up flyers addressing the problem to put on all the cars winshields while all the people are in the service lol).

I would also remind them that if the pastor does something that isn't to your liking, you certainly don't go up to the pulpit and slap him and then go and sit back down. So why is hitting children acceptable as a teaching tool? I honestly think that some of these people must have been abused themselves and this is their way of making "abusing" their own children acceptable so that they can live with the guilt. Very sad.

I am sorry you had to go through that. At the very least you have us here at GCM and you know that we all don't accept that kind of backwards thinking. I will pray for the church you mentioned and ask that they find a new way.
God bless you!

[Katherine]

((((((callasandra)))))

I hardly know what to say. I was overwhelmed with sadness and horror when I was reading your post. I have been that child. Granted, my parents were nowhere near as zealous (read: psychotic) as the Pearls or Ezzos, but the threat of being taken out and spanked hung over us at every church service. :( I totally remember those big paddles, too! Our Christian school teachers kept them hanging in plain view and used them frequently. Again.. personal experience... I got a spanking in the first grade b/c I accidently made a pencil mark on another girl's paper and the teacher refused to believe that I hadn't done it on purpose. :eek I actually had a blister on my behind for about a week.

It's a very tough position you are in. I guess the question in my mind is how direct are you with your family outside of church re: disciplinary issues? If you are honest with them about the concerns you have with Ezzo and punitive parenting in general, then it would be consistent for you to worship elsewhere, and they ought to accept it even if they are upset by it.

Another thought that came to me was whether you want your grandchildren to think that you advocate the methods their parents are using. I know it's a slippery situation. If you say too much, you alienate/offend your kids.. . if you say nothing, you seem to be supporting it. So tough.. :bheart

I'm guessing you don't get much real worshipping done there... I sure wouldn't if I was distracted by worrying about the kids and watching them being carted off to an unhappy fate every time they flinched.

Maybe you have to ask yourself just HOW important is it that family worship together, and why? Yes, you're presenting a united front, but do you really want to be "united" with what that church stands for? Is worshipping under the same roof more important than spiritual and social honesty? (hope I'm not being too blunt.. just thinking out loud here... ) Maybe you can set a healthy example for the grandkids so they can see that adults--even family members--do not always agree on spiritual or philosophical issues and can love each other and be respectful while they each remain true to their own belief system?

I know it's easy for me to say this, and another story entirely when it comes to doing it. :/ My Mom would probably cut off her right arm before she would purposefully jeopardize her relationship with and access to my boys.

Praying that God will give you wisdom to know the right choice and prepare the hearts of your family if need be....

[callasandra]

When I spoke to the pastor of my daughter’s church, I said that the parents taking the children out to be spanked was more distracting than anything any child did. It is really distracting. I also said that if at my age I have difficulty sitting still in a church service then why should children be expected to sit still. Just thinking of that paddle being used on my grandchildren or any child still horrifies me. I find myself on Sundays in church thinking about those children and praying for them. My daughter and I are both members of the same denomination so it was a shock to see that happen in her church when nothing like that ever happens in the church I attend. I was so upset by what I saw happening that I talked to the associate pastor at my church about it. While he was very concerned there was nothing he could do because the churches are in different synods. He also cautioned me not to alienate my daughter or grandchildren.

My son in law and I have had several conversations both in person and by email concerning this. He knows that I feel the children are excessively spanked at home. Whenever I have been around them (we live in different states) I have seen the children spanked at least once a day sometimes several times a day It is always three whacks with a whacker unless the child still doesn’t have a correct attitude then it is an additional 3 whacks until the child is brought into compliance. Mostly they are spanked for having a wrong attitude or not being cheerful. I am not sure how a 2 year old can understand what a wrong attitude is. My body language gives me away and they have picked up on that feeling that it undermines their authority. I have also gotten up and walked out of the house until I cooled down which took much prayer. I have learned with the children that if I want them to either do or stop something to go up to them and quietly whisper what I want and then to quietly divert them otherwise if they don’t immediatly obey or look like they have a wrong attitude they are spanked. For me the whole thing goes so totally against my beliefs. I believe strongly that parents should be able to raise their children without an interfering grandmother and I really want to be a support to them but I can’t support constantly spanking children. I try to encourage both of them in all the things they do in raising children that don’t include spanking. What is so sad is that everyone of those parents that I have seen really love their children and really believe what they are doing is Gods way. They all are really involved with their children and do so many really fun things with them. I just pray that the really good things they do will counter the spankings.

In discussions with my son in law he has quoted extensively from Proverbs, Deut 6:4-9 Eph 6:4; 2 Tim: 16 &17 feeling that the Scriptures are sufficient for raising our kids. It seems that a lot of people decide what they believe and then attempt to find scripture that supports it. I signed up for a Sunday School class on proverbs along with taking a few months to really prayerfully study the verses he quoted. I emailed my response back breaking down each verse, putting them into context with the rest of the chapter they were in. Those verses taken in context have a lot to say about teaching children that has nothing to do with spanking. I wish I had understood those verses when I was raising my own children. The thought of those children growing up, realizing that I knew about the spankings and did nothing has always bothered me, so I kept a copy of each email their father sent me and my response. At least they will know that I tried.

Callasandra

[MarynMunchkins]

:hug I just want to cry reading your post. :(

I have the opposite problem with my il's - they are punitive and we are not. They firmly believe that a spanking is the only way to discipline, and will quote Scripture out the ying yang trying to convince me. (And arguing with an ex-pastor is NOT fun! :lol) But they are respectful of my choices, and don't say anything about spanking when I am dealing with the kids.

So I would assume that the same thing would work for you. Keep talking to your son (son-in-law?) Sorry, I can't remember...:blush Send him links and books about gentle discipline and keep praying! I wouldn't openly talk about it in front of the kids.

That being said, you don't have to temper your body language or disgust for how your grandchildren are being treated. I know as a child, knowing I had an advocate would have helped - even if they weren't free to do much. I would stop going to the church with them too. Honestly, it would disturb me on many levels to see that at church that I wouldn't be able to worship. And I would have no problem explaining to my grandchildren the reason why if they ask.

:hugs and :pray

[Katherine]

The situation you are describing sound SO MUCH like our family. I'm not sure my grandmother disagreed with spanking as a whole, but she did/does have a lot more AP and gentle ideas than my parents did when they were raising us. She always felt my sis was spanked too much and disciplined too harshly. (I was a very passive, compliant child, and my sis was the intense, determined, hot-tempered one). I know Grandma voiced her concerns to Mom and Dad, while trying not to say too much. She also developed a special bond with my sister. There were many stages of my sister's life when I know she felt like Grandma was the only person in the world that loved her or was "on her side." That relationship literally saved her sanity during her tumultuous teen years and early adult struggles. She poured her heart out to Grandma about struggles she would never mention to anyone else.

(She and I have always been extremely close as well, but there were one or two periods where our relationship was strained. For example, when I started dating dh, she was very upset about it for a LONG time, and had an even rougher time with our decision to get married. During those "growing pains" in our sister relationship, she really clung to Grandma)

I say all this just to make the point that you can be so incredibly effective and significant in the lives of these kids even if you never change the minds of their parents. :heart :hug

I hope and pray that God will work in this situation. Don't give up. :pray

[Soliloquy]

In discussions with my son in law he has quoted extensively from Proverbs, Deut 6:4-9 Eph 6:4; 2 Tim: 16 &17 feeling that the Scriptures are sufficient for raising our kids. It seems that a lot of people decide what they believe and then attempt to find scripture that supports it.

I don't know if this would help, but you could point out OT Scripture that says he shouldn't eat pork, touch his wife when she's having her period, go near a body (i.e. a funeral) that's been dead for more than a day, and other examples from Levitical law from which Jesus freed us. Jesus was never anything but kind and gentle with children, especially when other adults thought the children were "bothersome." Paul tells us not to frustrate our children. Also, ask him if your daughter ever has a "bad attitude" with you if you should smack her. If children, why not adults? Adults still sin, just as much as children (if not more, because we're more accountable).

Also, ask him what he thinks his children will do when they're old enough to leave the house. I believe our goal as parents is to teach them to be loving to others and strong enough to stand up for what's right. Hitting does neither of those things.

All of this is assuming that a discussion would help. I think saving the emails is a good idea. As the children get older, can you have them stay with your for weekends? It would be a nice time for them to experience grace.

I'm really feeling called on to pray for families who hit each other. My heart is breaking for these children (and their parents who are missing out on so much joy). Let's all pray for them. . .

Please let us know if you get any response from your family!

[Soliloquy]

I forgot to add this link. Dr. Sears and his wife are devoted Christians and authors of the book Christian Parenting and Childcare: A Medical and Moral Guide to Raising Happy, Healthy Children.


In this link, Dr. Sears discusses why parents shouldn't spank and he addresses the Biblical issues. Orthodox Jews who follow the Torah closely do NOT spank their children.
http://askdrsears.com/html/6/t062100.asp

[sadie]

Orthodox Jews who follow the Torah closely do NOT spank their children.

I worked as a secretary to an Orthodox Jewish doctor, and he had spoken strongly AGAINST spanking many times. All of the Orthodox Jewish people I met through that job are also not supportive of spanking.

[BluegrassMama]

In a hurry, couldn't just read this without offering you :hug and to let you know that I'm praying for you! :pray What a situation :(

[Maggie]

:cry :cry :cry :sa How very sad, especially that the pastor is encouraging that type of abuse by having a paddle in his office???? Wow. I would not attend that church again, if I were you. How wonderful that you spoke to the pastor about your concerns!!! :highfive :hug

[ArmsOfLove]

(((((((hugs))))))) I would not be able to attend that church. It is an icky and abusive environment and I would not be able to worship God in that space :cry

Your heart must be breaking for your grandchildren. I'm so sorry :heart