What about socialization?

[Mamatoto]

I know, I know, every homeschooling family hates this question... ;)

But, I am feeling like if I unschool dd from home that I will be depriving her of a great socialization experience with her peers. She LOVES being around other children and she is such a leader. Kids follow her in sunday school class and just flock to her when she enters the room. She tries to act like a teacher and tells everyone what to do and "mothers" the children who are unsure of themselves. When we went to a Waldorf school for a parenting conference she just LOVED it. She asks all the time when she wakes up if she can go back to school or to sunday school that day!

I totally believe in unschooling/homeschooling but it is hard for me to know if it is right for THIS particular child because of how she is with her personality. :shrug I feel like I can give her everything at home except that part of it-having friends by her side each day as she learns.

[ArmsOfLove]

why would that be a need every day while she's learning? what about joining a homeschool coop? getting together with her friends? Remember that in school she will not really be able to freely enjoy her friends all the time.

[Katigre]

Could you enroll her in a park district class or something like that? Gymnastics or ballet?

[Sandy]

Funny, socialization is one of the reasons I didn't want my kids in a school!

[Teribear]

I have an only child so socialization was a very valid concern for me...but I knew that the "socialization" she would receive in institutional school was NOT positive and NOT what I wanted for her.

We co-op on Mondays (have for two years) she enjoys it and it fits with my unschooling philosophy because of that. She is involved in Brownies (before that we were members of a Keepers at Home club) and Sunday School. She takes various classes at the Y and other places in things that interest her. She fits easily into any social situation that she has encountered thus far so I'm confident that "socialization" is a non-issue.

It takes more effort to make sure an extroverted child has social outlets, but its by no means impossible.

[Cindy]

Actually, I think there are great advantages in seperating academics from socialization. I have one friend whose kindergartener is reading well and very advanced. A teacher actually asked her if she would be interested in putting her into 2nd grade next year... but while the academics would be right for her, there is a big difference in maturity level. She would be the youngest in her class, would never quite fit in... likewise for the child who may be slower to catch on... maybe needs to be held back a year... I think we all know the problem of "social promotions", as well as the label these later bloomers might have to carry around with them for years...

So, my daughter only gets to play with her age mates outside the school environment... so what... nobody knows or cares about academic status, they can just be kids.

I think socialization at home and in the REAL world is far superior to socialization in an institution where kids are put in classes all day with other kids their age, similar ability levels, or perhaps just having last named that begin with the same letter :lol

[Mamaka]

Here's a great quote from Homeschooling on a Shoestring by Allee & Morgan:

"What about socialization?" is the single most-asked question about homeschooling. The question implies that children get valualbe social experiences at school and that a homeschooled student would miss out on all that. "After all, they have to learn to live in the real world," is the typical follow-up comment. Many homeschool families see little value in the cliques, cattiness, and cruelty of children confined for many house a day in a competitive environment."

Having been a public & private school teacher and married to a public school teacher, I can say, without a doubt, the socialization in schools is not all it's cracked up to be. It's competitive, it's artificial, and in many cases it's unhealthy. Thinking about adult peer group, most of us usually socialize with a wide variety of people of differing ages, experience, and profession. Not so in schools; children are placed (usually) in homeogenous classrooms based on age and/or ability.

Dh & I think our ds will be a healthier person as a result of not being in the typical public school environment. As a parent I want to be able to choose the healthy social situations for my dc instead of the enforced, often overly competitive socialization found in schools. We also have an extroverted, kid-aware child and so we know we're going to have to be very active in finding social situations for him to be involved. Like, Teri, we're going to avail ourselves of what is available in the community like scouts, sport teams, church activities, etc.

One last thing before I step off my soapbox: "Who is allowed to socialize in school? I always go in trouble for that." Hugh Morgan :lol

[TestifyToLove]

I don't mean to sound blaise about it, but so what?

Seriously, to ask the question what about socialization implies that a group schooling environment has socialization that I *want* my children exposed to.

Frankly, I don't consider a school environment to be the type of socialization that I *want* my children exposed to. I find such socialization rather contrary to what real life is like. At no other point in our lives will we be set in a room with 30 other of our age peers and at most 1 supervisor and maybe 1 assistant supervisor. At no other point in our lives will we not have to interact with people of ALL ages, creeds, backgrounds and walks of life in a intimate, one on one environment where we cannot simply go along with the group mentality to succeed.

I don't want that for my children. I don't want them to think that this is something to be valued in the least, and I don't want them to learn the values, mannerisms and lost innocence of their peer group. My children are still children, and I don't find their peers in schools systems to be that at ALL at this point. MIL adopted a little girl who is between ds and dd in age. She's overweight. She's also very social. And, she's in counseling because she is absolutely miserable, hates her life, hates school and thinks she has nothing to live for--mostly because she is tormented unmercifully at school and has no friends there. That's not what I want my children exposed to nor to learn. That's a sad life to live at the ripe old age of 7, and its not what I desire for my children.

Never, not once have any of my children teased SIL. They adore her and love her to death. They've never been in an environment to think that there is something less than desirable about her. And, when they are around her, they flock to her because they find her lovable and fun to be around. I don't EVER want them to judge her based upon her looks and walk away from her. I don't even want them to judge her based upon the fact that she's not terribly bright (and she's not but neither were either biological parent so its nothing she has any control over, though its one of the things she is teased unmercifully for at school).

My children go to Sunday School every Sunday. They participate in scouts, soccer and homeschooling events. Last fall, they were involved in homeschool PE at the local Uni. In the fall, they will be permitted to pick one individual activity each to participate in as well. And, since we have 4 children (soon 5) they are well socialized at home as well. In addition, they can interact with children significantly older AND very young toddlers and babies. They feel comfortable around college kids, young adults, and very elderly. They have been taught to have a great deal of compassion and to treat all people with respect and love. That's the kind of socialization I want for them, not what they would be exposed to in a schoolroom.

[erinee]

That's the least of my concerns. We have church, Zach is in Cub Scouts and will do Little League and 4H in the summer, and we will be out and about in the community. We'll do homeschool gym and various field trips with the HS group. Both my kids are *very* social. They won't let me keep me away from other people!

I have not liked the attitudes I see Zach coming home from PS with. He's getting bullied and teased. THere are good kinds of socialization and bad kinds, and he's getting too much of the bad at PS.

[prayerbear]

Yesturday I met a lady from USA that I met on a christian board.

We met in london with her whole family. It was wonderful.

BUT

The kids on both sides do not meet many kids or have loads of socialisation!

They played
They spoke to each other
They helped each other
They ministered to each other
They discussed personal space and worked out about holding hands and sitting on top of each other
They talked about their fears and Bible passages that helped to overcome those fears
They wispered in St Pauls during the Mattins
They helped each other decide what to eat

Oh should I go on!!

I wondered during out 5 hours together what on earth socialisation is !!!!

PS GUESS HOW OLD THE KIDS ARE?

2 and a half
4 and a half
6 and three quaters
7 and a quater


They acted like teens in their ability to communicate and socialise. Actually better than teens in that they did not sulk or disengage from their feelings.. I was amazed :clap

[Piper2]

We've been concerned about socialization, too because like Terri, we homeschool an only child. And one of the problems with us is that there aren't any kids his age living on our street, except for the 7yo next door (Kevin's nearly 6) and he's just the kind of kid we DON'T want him socializing with (long story). And then we went through over a year of him having pretty serious separation anxiety, so not even Sunday School was an option.

Thankfully, though, he seems to have moved through that. :) He happily goes to Sunday School (which is a mixed-age special needs class), to Parent's Night Out one evening a month (with the same ministry) and begs to go to Kidz Club program at our local health club (which allows DH and I to actually work out together), which is also a mixed-age group. We are considering moving him back into his "regular" (as opposed to special needs) Sunday School class later this year and am planning on trying him in the "regular" VBS in June and possibly children's choir in the fall -- the only drawback to that is it's all age-segregated. And now that the weather is getting warmer, our homeschool group is having park days again, so he gets to play with other kids there twice a month, and we need to start going back to bowling that they have twice a month.

So we're not keeping him in the basement, that's for sure! ;) The only "problem" anybody has with his socialization is the my mother doesn't like it that he spends so much time with special needs kids, but that's her hang-up, not mine.

[Mamatoto]

Goodness, this seems to have stirred up some big feelings!! :wow

I really was trying to be very specific to my child and her needs. I don't question one bit any of your children and their socialization needs that are obviously being met very well. ;) :shifty Just in case that needed clarification...

The Waldorf school has very small classes and they do spend tons of time outside together gardening, playing, working, and inside making soup and snacks and working/playing. It's not a typical situation. I was incredibly impressed by the seventh graders who took care of my kids while we were at the Saturday parenting conference. Ds fell and bumped his head and a seventh grade boy knew to put arnica on it!!! :eek These kids are definitely used to being around all ages of kids. So, yes, it is hard to think about us being at home when we could be a part of this wonderful community of people...

But I also am looking into some waldorf-y type homeschool groups. I have found though that most h/s and co-op groups focus more on the older kids than the younger ones.

[Piper2]

:hug I didn't mean to make you feel bad about asking about socialization. The school you visited sounds wonderful, and if you feel your child will thrive in that setting, or any setting, nobody is going to fault you for going for it. :)

TBH, if I were to ever put Kevin into a school setting, I'd much rather it be something like a Waldorf or Montessori-type setting than a more "traditional" school.

[Mamatoto]

I didn't mean to make you feel bad about asking about socialization. The school you visited sounds wonderful, and if you feel your child will thrive in that setting, or any setting, nobody is going to fault you for going

I wasn't directing that at you... :smile It just seemed people were a bit offended like "Why would you ask that? I'm okay...no hard feelings...I just wanted to clarify why I was asking that question. ;)

[Piper2]

No, I don't think anyone here was offended by your asking that. It's just a hot topic that most of us have encountered elsewhere, so we have our own list of "social activities" prepared to whip out anytime we do -- maybe a bit of a knee-jerk reaction, at least for me. ;)

[prayerbear]

No definately not offended at all. I think most of us question this alot. But are always amazed how social the kids are.


On a side line I notice you mention the waldorf school. I thought I would just mention that it might be worth you asking the school whre they stand on his religion beliefs.
Have you checked out the religious beliefs of the waldof school?

[erinee]

I wan't offended at all, either. I was just helping you to see how I plan on meeting my kids' needs for socialization, since you're concerned about it. My kids are extremely social, too, and Zach really loves school. So this is something I've thought about a lot. No big feelings here, I was just hoping to help you see how our family meets that need so you could maybe get some ideas for your own! i'm sorry if I came across as offended or harsh in any way, I really didn't intend it to sound that way. :) :hug

[Kaz]

Snugglemama I'm glad you raised this question as dh and I are thinking about unschooling later down the track for dd.

You might find this http://www.naturalchild.com/common_objections/index.html
It gives some good answers to common objections to homeschooling, including the socialisation question.

Funnily enough I was just reading a pro-Waldorf book called 'You Are Your Child's First Teacher' by Rahima Baldwin Dancy. I liked a lot of what she said, but not all. She seems to believe a lot of good stuff that's in common with unschooling..a child-led, relaxed approach. So if I were going to put dd into school I would want to know more about this. But I don't know about the religious philosophy behind Waldorf..its seems kinda quasi-Christian. Others would know more I'm sure.

DH seems to think if dd is super-keen to get to school we should let her go. But I must say, I think this is flawed logic as just because your child wants something doesn't mean its good for them. ANd DH himself feels school was not great for him overall. And yet, and yet...there are more angles to explore for us before we feel certain.

So anyhow, I know where you're coming from. All the best with your decision. May God guide you to do what's best for your family :pray

[jujubnme]

It sounds like your concerns are more about "socializing" (will your extroverted dd have enough opportunities to be with and make friendships with other children) than "socialization" (learning how to relate in a group/society). I think it would be important for you to check out what kind of homeschooling co-ops, extracurricular activities, etc. are available in your community. I do think that extroverted children can get their relationship needs met through other adults, kids of other ages, as well as same-aged kids.... but some kids do need a lot of extra-familial relationships to keep themselves and their mommas from going crazy :).

[Mamatoto]

My Waldorf views are very very well researched, believe me. I know it is controversial. There are actually Christian teachers at this particular school. It seems to me that what you read about Waldorf on the internet is completely different than what it is in the real life school. I went to the parenting conference with my shield up ready to fight off the new age ideas and ready to walk out if the speaker was a quack...but I didn't have to fight and the speaker was incredible!!! There were four or five other mama's nursing their babies in the conference and walking around with Maya's on. I felt so at home :highfive

Anyway, back to the OT...jujubnme...yes, you described what I was saying very well! Thanks! Tambourine Dancer, I can definitely understand the reaction and figured that was probably what was going on. I know this is a "hot topic" because h/s'ers probably have to explain their views on this to people a lot. :idea

[prayerbear]

thats fine long as you know :D

[crunchymum]

just my 2 cents, as an extroverted, 'gets my energy from being around people', former homeschooler.... :) we did a lot of things that socialized us: h/s groups, field trips, sunday school, sports events at the highschool, etc... when we were older, we would go talk to the lonely people at the nursing home... :hug

i think it's good you're asking the question! i was in public school on and off, and i agree with others, it ain't that great... :rolleyes but it sounds like the school you're talking about is different? i guess that would be a hard call for me. waldorf schools personally interest me, and i haven't started schooling yet (well, formally, at least), so i'm just speaking from my childhood experiences. i know a bunch of homeschoolers who really weren't socialized, but i think that was partly because their parents were very introverted and kept them secluded. i know a ton of h.schoolers who are like me, though... when i tell people i was homeschooled they're like like "REALLY?!?" :wow :lol


ok, that was just random ramblings.... return to your previously scheduled thread. :O

[Mamatoto]

I like your random ramblings and I find them very helpful. :hearts

[crunchymum]

:O :hearts

[Kaz]

If I can just clarify because I think my comments were a bit misunderstood; I *liked* what I read in the Waldorf-y book. I meant I would want to look into it further myself because it had a lot of positive things going for it.. I didn't agree with all of it but for me that's OK cos I'm not someone who believes you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater :)

[crunchymum]

i understand what you're saying, kaz! :)

[Mamatoto]

I understand, too. I was just answering the concerns on this thread in general with Waldorf, not directing that at you. :hug PM me if you want more information on what I have found, if you are looking more into Waldorf.

[ArmsOfLove]

yes, Andrea is right--there is a difference between socializing (a need that must be met) and socialization (learning to get along in a group). The things talked about here--hs coop groups and friends--are ways to meet the needs for socializing. Public schools provide institutional socialization--they teach children how to get along and survive in an institutional setting--how to be cogs in the wheel, worker bees. And each different type of private school teaches a different type of socialization. Charter schools have different socializations too--tech schools will teach children how to be workers in the inustries they are being trained for, etc. One goal of homeschooling is to socialize children to get along in society--to get along with children of all ages and adults of all ages and people in all professions who are encountered in a day.