I don' t know whether to throw up or cry...

[musicmama]

Or both :(

I just got back from spending the night at a friends house, watching their almost 4yo and 2.5 yo. They had an emergency and one of their parents bailed out on watching the kuids, and they were already out of town.

In the "instruction" sheet, there were their routines for the day. I KNEW this was a strict Ezzo family, I KNEW it, but I guess I was in denial :( At naptime, I was to "lock them in their room" and if they didn't sleep, it was up to me if I wanted to let them out, but she needed the break so she left them there until 5pm, even if they didn't sleep. At night, I was to lock them in again. (shhh, I didn't do it).



But, even WORSE, was the instructions for discipline. Even when I "believed" in spanking, I would have NEVER told another person how to discipline my child. Discipline...hmph, it was spanking. There were atLEAST 15 wooden spoons placed around the house, and every time I passed one I wanted to cry. On the sheet it told me that I probably wouldn't have to hit them, just the threat usually gets them to obey.

:cry :cry :cry

These are GOOD kids, they are KIDS! Sure, they get rambunctious and the do kid stuff, but they are such lovers and huggers and just wanting attention and love. We had such a good time, they are so cute.

I just don't know what to do. Do I say something?

[schoolofmom]

{{{Sara}}} I am so sorry. That must've been :hissyfit for you. :(

I wouldn't say anything, in your position. I would just remember them in your prayers. I know that in the past I would never have accepted any sort of advice from someone who wasn't raising children of her own. (Sad but true)

[expatmom]

Ack! That would totally disturb me. I probably couldn't keep my mouth shut & would try to find a non-confrontational way to initiate conversation. And everytime I saw those kids I would want to hug them & affirm them.

[Sandy]

That must have been really hard!

I think I'd just love on them as much as you possibly can. **If** your friendship is strong enough, maybe you can bring up the subject later. Something on the order of...."I know that you use methods taught by Ezzo in your home and I wanted to find out more about that. Here's what I found..."

I'd pray lots and lots over it!

[Katherine]

It is really tough. :( I kept a little girl for a few months, and her Mom used Babywise. I tried to respect the Mom's schedule to some degree, but we didn't even get through the first day before I tossed the "schedule" and list out the window... figuratively, of course. :)

The thing I learned from that experience is that if I ever agree to watch anyone's kids again, I will make SURE I understand what the parents expect of me, and I will make SURE the parents understand which things I am not willing to do. (like locking kids in their room, using punitive measure, leaving a baby to cry, refusing to feed a hungry baby until the schedule says so, etc.) Even when I disagree with other parents, I respect their right to know how I am choosing to handle their child when they leave him or her with me. I would expect someone else to do me the same courtesy, KWIM?

Maybe one way to approach the topic would just be to let them know--for future reference--that you love them and their kids and are more than willing to help out if they ever need you, but that you are not comfortable or willing to do X, Y, and Z.... that you have some different ways of addressing behavior issues, and you just wanted to make sure they knew what to expect and what not to expect when you help out with the kids. I think a message like that, delivered with respect and gentlessness and not with a judgemental tone (and accompanied by lots of smiles and affirmation of them as a family) might be well accepted, and could even leave the door open for future discussion when they are ready. ;)

I'm sorry you were put in an awkward spot, but glad the kids have someone in their life who does not approach them with a punitive attitude. :hug
Pray, pray, pray for the family. :pray

[CelticJourney]

I briefly traded babysitting with a Ezzo friend. I made it clear that I would not allow baby to cry, fussing maybe, but no crying. I put her down asleep, she started to fuss and I could tell it was going to excalate. I decided I would walk to one end of the house and back - I didn't make it- my girls exploded. "THE BABY IS CRYING!" called the then four yo and the 7yo had already run down the hall to comfort the baby. They made it very clear that CIO was 'not acceptable'. Her big brother and sister didn't even move a muscle. Big sister said "mom just lets her cry" but didn't look away from the TV.

Sad would be an understatement. :cry

Elizabeth

[katiekind]

You guys, this is heartbreaking.

[Maggie]

:cry So sad!

[Benjaminswife]

Even if I did spank I wouldn't want others to do it. That is what I don't get at all.

[mama2grace]

:cry

[MarynMunchkins]

I used to babysit for a big Ezzo family when I was 14-15. Actually, she gave me the stupid book at my baby shower, and I used it because I loved her kids so much. :shifty :doh At 14, I was given instructions to sit outside their 2 year old's door and spank him if he got up. :eek I was supposed to put him in time out and spank him if he tried to get up.

I watched their kids every week for more than a year, and I never spanked a kid. I once told the parents about a rough night, and they WOKE UP the 2 year old at 11:30 to spank him in front of me. :sick :( It was very creepy...

[TulipMama]

I remember telling my Mom that she had permission to spank my older boys, and how she just balked at that. Even though she spanked us, by the time we were getting older she really, really regretted it.

Now, reading this thread (and haveing the change of heart that I've had), I realize how much that was hard for her and what a great job she did communicating love and acceptance to me, respect for me as the mama, but NOT respect for spanking. . .

[CelticJourney]

<<I once told the parents about a rough night, and they WOKE UP the 2 year old at 11:30 to spank him in front of me. It was very creepy...>>

I have a 'friend' who thinks the Pearls 'have some good thing to say' :sick and I am very, very careful to never tell her if her son has misbehaved, or more correctly, acted like a child.

They were in a performance at our church with my dd's this weekend so I saw LOTS of them (6 performances) and I finally got to drop the fact that we are a 'non-spanking' family on her. I wonder if or how that might come back up later. She thinks my girls are wonderful, so maybe a conversation will begin.

[LadyBird]

That sounds very abusive to me, and I would report it to Child Protective Services. I also would show them what the woman wrote down...the "instructions" in her own handwriting as evidence. This is what you see....what about what you don't see? I think that locking a child up in a room, and keeping implements around the house to hit them with is TOTALLY ABUSIVE...Ezzo or not...it is still very wrong and those kids need protecting. Those parents are very wrong in thinking that is okay. JMNSHO :wow

[Katherine]

That sounds very abusive to me, and I would report it to Child Protective Services

((((Lynn))))) It is really upsetting to hear about stuff like that, and it's tricky to know where to draw the line in terms of abuse.

I guess I have to consider what would happen to those kids if CPS were to get involved. It's one thing for a citizen to make a phone call and then sit back and watch. It's quite another thing for a loving, well-intentioned Christian family (who are granted making some bad parenting choices) when their children are ripped out of their home and put into an institution or split up and placed in homes with strangers (even if Foster parents are wonderful people, they are still strangers to the kids). We've known a family who had it happen, and it only took one phone call from their 13yo boy who was mad at his dad. They said they had to remove the ALL the children while the investigation was in progress, so it happened suddenly and without warning. :cry

I had a bunch of spoons around my house at one point in time, too. :cry :bheart But I loved my child more than anything in the world and was doing the best I knew how to do at the time. Thank God He brought me to a place of questioning early on and guided me to sources that helped me find a different way.

This is what you see....what about what you don't see?

TBH, this worries me less with Ezzo/Pearl families than it does with families who are punitive without "moral" reasonings behind it. IME, Ezzo and Pearl followers are so convinced that they are right and Biblical that they don't hide what they do, at least not in front of friends/family or fellow Christians. In fact, they are often proud of it and push their methods on those around them. But ... I agree with you that it is a slippery slope in terms of abuse.

Those parents are very wrong in thinking that is okay

I agree with you. Prayers and love and examples of gentle discipline are greatly needed. :pray :pray

[Vipers_Princess]

this is why I could never sit for a punitive family....

[phermion]

I totally agree with lot's of prayer and "show by example". I wouldn't listen to advise at that point either (when I was in the mother's place), but the Holy Spirit can sure soften hearts. I'd rather see a family healed by God than torn apart by CPS. (not saying I would turn a blind eye to abuse...I DON'T. It's just not always clear which consequenses are better...) *sigh* I'm not making any sense. :/

[Katherine]

Phermion,

You made sense! This is exactly what I was trying to say:

It's just not always clear which consequenses are better.

[Sanveann]

They are LOCKED in their rooms??? How awful! What if there was a fire??

[UltraMother]

I once told the parents about a rough night, and they WOKE UP the 2 year old at 11:30 to spank him in front of me

How on earth could the two-year old understand what's happening to him at that point?

[Blue Aurora]

So sad!! I am also very uncomfortable about contacting CPS unless it was a true case of abuse. Children can be treated alot worse in CPS "system" than being locked in a room. I feel for those children.

[LadyBird]

I guess it is first of all most important to determine whether or not it constitutes abuse. Here is a very informative site on this:

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/It%27s_Up_to_You/HTML/CAP2005-SectionI.html#whatabuse

I think there is a fine line between "parenting techniques" and abuse. I also think it is important to note that just because a person is reported does not mean that their children will automatically be taken from them. Only in an emergency situation where the abuse if of a physical nature and it is determined that the children are in immediate danger would they remove them from the home. Otherwise we would probably have half of the nation in foster care.

I believe the goal of CPS is not only to protect the children, but also to protect the family unit and encourage healthy family ideals. It isn't just an agency to come in and take children away. I think some parents need stronger "guidance" from outside sources when they are mistreating their children "in the name of God".

here is a link that explains how Texas handles their investigations...it isn't just a report = children removed scenario.They may also just come in and give the family recommendations on how to deal with situations, or offer services for parenting etc etc....

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/Child_Protection/About_Child_Protective_Services/investigation.asp

I don't know...I guess I would just have a VERY hard time ignoring someone locking their child up in a room and leaving them that way unattended. :pray

[CelticJourney]

FIL was firefighter and would be flipping out if he read that. Ask them how the children are supposed to survive a fire if they are locked in a room with no way out. And no, mom and dad do not have time to reach the room and unlock it, get the children out and get out of the house. FIL has even said he has actually had to push bodies out of the way to open the front door where the home owners had a deadbolt with a key that they removed for 'security reasons' and couldn't get the door open in time to get out.

Scary!

[Wonder Woman]

I used to work with a mom who was into some pretty harsh/punitive stuff. I was just a kid...17...and I had no idea what AP was. I had been raised pretty punitively, and been told all my life that "beating" was the way to go. That's why I didn't say more to that woman than I did. Looking back...ohhh what I would say now!
DISTURBING CONTENT DISTURBING CONTENT DISTURBING CONTENT
Anyway, here's what happened. Her children were babysat by a woman who believed in "the rod." And not a comparatively "gentle" glue stick - this woman believed in a 2x2 18 inch long piece of lumber. The caretaker beat her own daughter with it and broke the girl's arm. CPS came in and took the girl away. Thank God! Because this woman cared for my co-worker's kids, CPS interviewed them. Then they opened a case on my coworker because she told CPS that "God intended us to beat our kids when they are bad." :cry :cry :cry She was allowed to keep her children only after CPS determined that she beat them with a switch and not a board. So I guess CPS doesn't alway equals immediate removal.....

I have friends who spank, and I don't call CPS on them. I just GBD all over the place in front of them and show them how it can be different. It's hard, though, to see kids suffer in the name of God.

I did tell the woman that God never intended a child to be beaten, much less with a board!

[Blue Aurora]

CPS may not automatically take your child away but if you are ever reported than you are in the system. There is a mandatory process that you have to go through. I personally thinking our CPS is extremely flawed and would want to be very, very sure that it was atrue case of abuse not just a parenting style that I didn't like. I agree with pp's that loving examples all over the place of GBD would be the best way to go and lots and lots of prayer.

[Katherine]

CPS may not automatically take your child away but if you are ever reported than you are in the system. There is a mandatory process that you have to go through. I personally thinking our CPS is extremely flawed

Yes. I agree.

And they may not automatically take the kids, but then again, they might... and did with the family we know.
I hope I never have to decide whether to make a call like that. :/

[Krystyne]

Even if I did spank I wouldn't want others to do it. That is what I don't get at all.


I agree. I *still* shudder at the time my mom spanked her friends' kids. i was 5 years old. My mom was sitting for her friend's 7 and 9 year old kids. The kids road their bikes in the cul de sac w/o asking my mom. My mom was angry. I do not recall if she had told them not to. I was in the kitchen when my mom called their mom who apparently told her to spank them "the good old fashion way" Which I gather meant with a bely naked butt. So my mom took the kids in her bedroom, the kids knew laraedy to take down their pants and my mom spanked them. Over and over. The next day when my mom's friend came over to pick her kids up, both her and my mom spanked them again the same way.

I am sorry that you had to be in that Ezzo home. I do hope you are able to set boundaries the next time.

[Miss Priss]

:hug
How awful.